Greenwoodworking Shaving Horse

[Mike Holbrook]

I have green wood I have to deal with regularly. I live on a wooded property with a long drive that trees frequently fall across...I am determined to use some of this wood. I ordered a couple books and a DVD from Country Workshops/ Drew Langsner. I have always wanted to make Windsor Chairs, spoons, bowls...

It would seem that this is the most basic form of Neander woodworking, yet I find little mention of it in our Neander pages. I am especially interested in making/buying a Shaving Horse/Bench, which is the devise used to hold greenwood for working with drawknives and spokeshaves. Certainly there must be closet greenwoodworkers lurking amongst our members. I am very interested in hearing what "green" woodworkers prefer in the way of tools and shaving horses.

Country Workshops makes kits and sells plans for shaving horses which look good. Drew carries a supply of tools at Country Workshops too, but he seems to stock only small quantities, probably for the classes he teaches. He is currently out of stock in many popular items.

[Todd Burch]

Hi Mike. I had some green elm several years ago (15+) and decided to make a shaving horse. I made one, and it worked great. I don't have any pictures, and don't remember where I got plans, but I know it was from a book I already had. I had it a few years, and then discarded it. I made it more for the experience than for need of using one. If I didn't spend one day making it, it was 2 days. No rocket science on a shaving horse.

The foot operated pivot clamp worked well, even on thin stock. I'm 6'1", and if I made one again, I might make it a bit taller and longer, which means nothing, since I don't remember the dimensions I did use...

I vote you make your first one. Go for it! Post pics.

Todd

[Prashun Patel]

Before you get to the shave horse, have you devised a way to turn the logs into riven lumber? Chainsaw, saw buck, froe, hammer,wedges, riving brake are the things you might need first?

Also, note that a shave horse is very nice for securing the odd-shaped, long pieces of a chair when shaving/shaping. However, a conventional bench with a properly placed 'carving' style vise can work well too. Just sayin.

[James Conrad]

Hi Mike,

A shave horse is on my list of projects for the new shop as I discarded my last one when we moved last spring. It was a bit anemic to say the least... I have been doing research for the new one and will most likely choose the Langsner/Boggs design. I also like the design that Peter Galbert uses, search his Blog for plans and videos (http://www.chairnotes.blogspot.com/). What I like about Pete's is the side clamping vs. the center clamp. If you don't want to build your own the prices for the Country Workshops shave horse is pretty good. I have an article on building Drew's, PM me and I can send you the PDFs if you like, it is 2 large files.

[Mike Holbrook]

Yea, greenwood talk! Prashun, I have a large Husky Chainsaw (20" bar). I have Gransfors splitting axes and wedges, a couple sledges and I have a froe on order with other items from Country Workshops. I split wood by hand for firewood regularly, especially in this weather. I have been studying ways to hold full size logs for splitting with wedges or a froe. I think the simplest is just a wide log with a back piece to help hold the log being split in place. I don't think I need to split/riv anything very long to get pieces for bowls, spoons or chair parts. I have a good supply of logs on the ground now.

I like Drew Lagsner's design for a shaving horse, sort of a combination of several different design concepts. As James mentions, he sells a bolt together, shippable kit for a very reasonable price. Drew also sells the plans for his Shaving Horse now. I am sure I could make one but I have more pressing projects and Drew's comes with a leather covered seat that looks very inviting to my old sore butt. I am thinking about picking up a drawknife and scorp/inshave made by Barr Tools that Highland Woodworking sells. I am local to Highland and have a trip planed there. It will be nice to handle the tools before buying them.

My ultimate goal is to make rougher (Irish?) forms of Windsor chairs for use on our covered deck at our dog club.

[Steve Friedman]

Mike,

I just built a shaving horse using Drew Langsner's plans. Very easy to do and most of it can be done with construction lumber. I used ash where hardwood was suggested. Works very well and the leather covered seat should be pretty easy to make, but i haven't gotten around to it. I have used and love the L-N shaving horse, but it's a bit pricey.

I also have the Lee Valley shaving horse plans, but decided that I liked Drew Langsner's version better.

I don't make chairs, but like using the shave horse anytime I'm using a draw knife. In my opinion, it's much safer than using a draw knife with the blank secured in my bench vise. Also, the shave horse doesn't move like my bench does.

I have started to use it with spokeshaves as well (if the blank fits) and really like the ease of re-positioning the blank.

Next project will be a horse to hold bowl blanks for hand hewing. There are some great ideas online. I think folks have started calling them Bowl Horses.

By the way, here are my favorite green woodworking sites:

greenwoodworking.com
www.robin-wood.co.uk
pfollansbee.wordpress.com

Steve

[Roderick Gentry]

In our modern NA world, I sorta divide horses into 5 types.

1) crossbar type, there are many of these plans wise: http://www.greenwoodworking.com/ShavingHorsePlans

Main advantage is that the jaws accommodate flat or wide work better, as for shingles, of the slats on ladderback chairs, etc...The piece can also be centered, or placed at a severe diagonal as for very long work. Main downside is getting stuff in and out of it. This mostly affect long work, short pieces get in there easily. And to jump ahead a little, the ratchet devices work better with this type, allowing rapid size adjustment, which is a nice feature, but not all that essential.

2) Dumbhead type. Piece enters from the side, and is quickly worked, long pieces go in well. My current favorite is the Drew version from his Chairmaking book page 278. Arguable the best how to woodworking book of all time.

I came across this video on making an adjustable dumbhead design, and it is pretty clever because this is not the easiest thing to do. It does not maintain working height however. As much as anything you can see people are just doing their own thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jcb6rgZJcqo

3) Professional types. The obvious example is the Brian Boggs version, Lee NIelsen now makes a version. It is actually fairly easy to make. For one thing the wood is mostly small and all could be sawn. Some of the design objectives were to have better posture, more vertical back; to keep the cutting height constant (real reason for ratchet as well as adjustment); A comfortable seat (ironic for chair makers to use a bad seat all day); it's compact, and can be demounted to take to shows, and seminars. All to the good, but keep in mind that pros don't have the same needs as amateurs, so you may not know what you really need, but it may not be this. Getting your own list is important moreso than copying someone else's. Boggs for instance uses his horse time, mainly for finishing small pieces.

4) Specialized horses, an obvious example being the ones for bowmaking. If your main interest is off the wall, then there may actually be a specialized horse for that, and you might want to find out about it.

5) No horse. I did a seminar once with a guy who make windsors, and was pretty anti horse. He did use it a little, but some of the work is bench work, some is lathe, some is better done in a precision high vise, and only a little in a horse. Horses do dictate various posture, pull length, and work angle issues. Not always the right choice for green woodworking.


The first I made was a version of Brian Bogg's I put it together more or less from his picture. Drew has a version of this I think it is his mule plan, I don't really like his, and made mine more like the Boggs. It was not a greenwood project in itself. There were supposed to be plans for the Boggs horse, but I don't think they are out.

The second I made was a version of Drew page 278 model. I like it a lot, and I made it all by hand, I even had to make the taper reamer by hand since I didn't have access to a lathe at the time. I used the John Alexander style, and I really like it, maybe more than even the super expensive ones I have (but didn't have with me at the time). It was a fun project. I made it all of wood I had harvested tamarack for the seat, and red oak for most of the rest. The dumbhead part was still pretty wet when I made it, but it dried up nicely.


Green Woodworking as promoted is really two things, one is using green wood, and the second is a certain kit of tools (which also work on dry wood). Green wood or found wood is very important. If you have it, it can be turned, green woodworked, or dried for use as dried wood. The only downside is that I don't live where the nicest stuff grows, though settling for local is a worthwhile journey.

One warning though, is that a lot of the seemingly perfect wood one gets, is crap. But is usually great worked with other hand tools than the typical kit, or even power tools. Many of the star makers are using veneer grade logs which is somewhere between a travesty and a cheat. That stuff is incredibly rare and precious, and I am fine with the way our economy works, but in theory it depends on everyone having the same info which in woodworking will never happen. Also, when you cut that perfect straight grained piece, and try to use the traditional tools and techs, it often isn't pretty. A small bump can make it impossible to split. My point being bandsaw the heck out of it and get on with it. We are making chairs out of wood (that if it were desirable for that purpose) is many grades above aircraft grade. The guys who are pros are going to guys who are industrially managing woodlots, or worse, and creaming their production.

All I am saying is use the wood you have, enjoy the pop when it splits perfectly, but also be aware this doesn't always happen. What always has happened is that we have adapted out tools to the wood we had, and the wood we had left. So don't necessarily get so wrapped up in the concept that you miss the bigger picture.

Also riven wood is oversold. It does not always split with the grain, and one can bandsaw/TS/ power plane with the grain if one wants. Further it is not necessary to riv wood to maximize strength 1) because some other methods, as mentioned also follow the grain; 2) some pieces are more than full strength in use, even with run-out. If it is OK for an airplane spar, it is probably OK for your chair. That said riving is efficient when it works, fun, and grain aligned wood is absolutely required for certain parts, or processes (like bending). But aggressive myth making about wood engineering, doesn't help anyone.

[Steve Voigt]

By the way, here are my favorite green woodworking sites:

greenwoodworking.com
www.robin-wood.co.uk (http://www.robin-wood.co.uk)
pfollansbee.wordpress.com

Steve

All three are great sites. I would also add:

http://chairnotes.blogspot.com/ (peter galbert)
http://timmanneychairmaker.blogspot.com/
http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.com/ (caleb james)

All 3 have tons of info on shaving horses, riving, drawknifing, you name it.

[Chris Vandiver]

Google "shaving horse plan" and lots of sites show up. Here's one; http://www.veritastools.com/Content/Assets/ProductInfo/EN/05L1901AI.pdf

There is also a lot of info on riving wood(a key element to greenwood chairmaking) on the Web.

[Paul Saffold]

I made this one which is also in Drew's book. http://americanwoodworker.com/blogs/shop/archive/2012/10/09/aw-extra-hybrid-shaving-horse.aspx

I use sycamore for the hw parts. and syp for the rest. Still haven't used it though.

Paul

[Bob Jones]

Mike Abbott has a couple of excellent books out right now on the topic. He makes rather rustic stuff, but the books are excellent. He designed the pole lathe chisel set that Ashley Iles produces. I highly recommend his stuff.

[Lon Crosby]

A shaving horse has two ends and there is nothing that keeps you from putting a different head design on each end. Pick your seat up and flip it 180 degrees for a different set of capabilities without any additional space.

[Mike Holbrook]

Great information guys. I have lots of new bookmarks to keep me busy reading for a while. I guess I need to order Drew's chair making book next. I will check out the Mike Abbott books too Bob.

The shaving horse/mule offered at Country Workshops appears to be the one that Paul provides a link to, apparently a version of the Brian Boggs horse that Tom Donahey refined and now sells through Country Workshops, if I am reading the American Woodworker article correctly. I wonder if this is the same one Roderick mentions from pg 278 of Drew's book on chair making. I like the simplicity and economy of the design, ability to disassemble, the treadle and the work support and clamping. It looks like it was designed to hold chair spindles and slats for work with drawknives and spokeshaves, which is my main area of interest. The only thing I am not sure I like is the plywood work support. I imagine it would be easy to make another using solid wood. There is a all hardwood model of the same horse/mule but I am good with the main body being #1 SYP. Anyone care to share their experience with tools of this type?

The prices for adzes, axes, drawknives and inshaves varies a great deal. Barr Tools makes versions of many of these tools that are much less than the Swedish versions. I think Barr Tools makes reliable sturdy tools and I am wondering if the Swiss versions of these tools have significant advantages?

[Roderick Gentry]

No, they copied that from the Boggs one, the one I am talking about is more traditional and a dumbhead design. I also use one similar to that that I drew up from a picture, I have photos, but I don't know where they are, I will try to dig them out. The Boggs/Paul horse is a good design, but it is specific to small chair parts, obviously you can do other stuff, and maybe you only want ladderback chairs.

I am not normally a guy who says you need to buy all these videos, but two of the best woodworking videos ever, are the John Alexander chair video, and the Boggs video, I think it is the spokeshave one, which means you see a lot of his vise. I like the JA video better, and it is probably less likely to cause you to drop 2K at LN. The JA is up there with seminal works like the FK Dovetailing video. But it is massively detailed, and he is a guy with a lot of tools and methods of work, a huge number of which are original to him, and will not cause you to darken the door of LV, or LN. Of course if I was still in the high earning bracket, I would holiday at motels across from either.

Plywood. Mine works fine, but I wouldn't leave it out of doors, though I suppose one could. The rest has a deep V to hold rungs and such. I guess it is possible that if you made it from regular wood, the clamping pressure would spit it, depending on how you did it. It is a small piece so try it yourself. Got any elm?

I can't say enough good things about Swiss Tools... If you know what I mean...

I have this Barr Drawknife:

http://barrtools.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BT&Product_Code=DKS&Category_Code=DK

He didn't start making the chairmakers style until quite recently. I would order it again, it is an amazing knife. I bought mine 15 years ago ish, and he didn't offer the longest wearing O1 at the time. He was aware of the problem, and since you can find everything you need to know on hardening O1 online these days, I can't see how he could have failed to improve his tools. Didn't seem to be a problem with the knife anyway, but with his bench chisels it was.

There are two schools of thought on draw knife bevels. I like the knives whose sections look a bit more like an airplane wing, which would be the one above, or the Curtis, standard, though I haven't seen it. The other style is more like a planer blade with a steep bevel on a square section blade. Last time I saw one for sale under his name, Dunbar was using that style. So if you have a school of thought or teacher you plan on attending, you might conside the style they will teach.

Freebie wise, there is a two part Buchanan episode you can can download on the woodwright shop site, nad there is a much longer one he has put up on YOutube. Well worth you time.

My absolute favourite knife is one I picked up at an antique sidewalk sale in a mall. Cheaper, etc... Unfortunately a small crack on one arm has scared me into using it only now and then. The old tools are even better than the new ones, if you can find a real user. Unfortunately, through the years people have used them for stuff like battoning kindling.

[Roderick Gentry]

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This is the page 278 dumbhead unit from Drew's book Chairmaking




279437

This is my version of the Boggs horse, before it was finished, edges rounded over custom seat, finish, etc...

[Todd Burch]

Seriously Roderick - that's your view when woodworking?

[Paul Saffold]

My first post is not correct.
As Roderick shows the one in the Drew's book is the dumbhead design. The link to the American Woodworker plan is the same as the plan that Drew sells which is a modification of Boggs' horse. Country Workshops has both styles for students to use. Most students in the class I was in preferred the Boggs' style. More comfortable and easier to adjust for different size stock. Increasing the gap between the rails will allow for a wider jaw and platform if you are worried about being able to handle larger stock. Drew's plans call for 2" stock, since I used 2X construction lumber (1.5") I added a spacer to give me the 2 " gap. That gives room for a platform 5" wide on mine.
Let me know if you want pictures.
Drew sells plans for the shave horse for $12 but they are the same as the American woodworker plans. If you have questions, Tom Donahey is easy to talk to and very willing to share advice. He does not do email though so you have to call him.

[Mike Holbrook]

Ahh, now I see the differences.

I am interested in building Sack-Back Windsor Chairs in a more primitive Irish style. By primitive style I mean I want the legs, leg supports and arm supports made simpler, rougher, less ornate and sturdier. I am hoping I can make all the pieces with drawknives/spokeshaves on a shaving horse/mule. I know there are half-round spokeshaves made for rounding chair legs and spindles. I am not all excited about a perfectly round, manufactured look anyway. My chairs will see heavy use and probably abuse.

The arms and sometimes parts of the backs of some chair designs use "slats" of wood, but I think these pieces would fit easily in either shaving horse design? There are pictures of classes at Country Workshops where students are working on slats in the shaving mule design Country Workshops sells.

So maybe the Barr Chairmaker's Drawknife and Barr 4" Chairmakers Scorp are reasonable tools to try first? The Swiss Drawknife and Inshave Country Workshops sells are about twice as much money and I have Swiss Axe, Adze and Gouges on order.... I also can't tell how the handles are attached to the tools Karlsson makes for Country Workshops. Clearly the handles on the Barr tools are bolted on and easily replaced. I have a Gransfors splitting axe, with metal guard, that needs a new handle now, which has me thinking about that particular issue. Once I have a shaving horse and proper tools I hope this job will be an interesting project, not so much with the tools I have now. I have lots of outdoor tools that use wood handles. I have a sledge, grass blade and tree digging shovel that need handles now too.

[Roderick Gentry]

Seriously Roderick - that's your view when woodworking?

You should see it today, bring a parka. :)

I guess that is one thing not mentioned about green woodworking, you can start it in the woods (bugs), and you can finish it with a view. A couple more of my wood projects.

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[Todd Burch]

Awesome. What lake is that? Or, is it a lake?

Jealous!!

[Jack Curtis]

...I am interested in building Sack-Back Windsor Chairs in a more primitive Irish style. By primitive style I mean I want the legs, leg supports and arm supports made simpler, rougher, less ornate and sturdier. I am hoping I can make all the pieces with drawknives/spokeshaves on a shaving horse/mule. I know there are half-round spokeshaves made for rounding chair legs and spindles. I am not all excited about a perfectly round, manufactured look anyway. My chairs will see heavy use and probably abuse....

You may want to check out Don Webb's stick windsors for some ideas if yours aren't fully formed.

[Steve Voigt]

I am interested in building Sack-Back Windsor Chairs in a more primitive Irish style. By primitive style I mean I want the legs, leg supports and arm supports made simpler, rougher, less ornate and sturdier. I am hoping I can make all the pieces with drawknives/spokeshaves on a shaving horse/mule. I know there are half-round spokeshaves made for rounding chair legs and spindles. I am not all excited about a perfectly round, manufactured look anyway.

Mike, if you haven't already, check out John Brown. His seminal book, "Welsh stick chairs," is dirt cheap right now. Here's a nice example, no lathe required.

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P.S. +1 to Jack's suggestion also.

[Jack Curtis]

Mike, if you haven't already, check out John Brown. His seminal book, "Welsh stick chairs," is dirt cheap right now. Here's a nice example, no lathe required.

P.S. +1 to Jack's suggestion also.

Yeah, John Brown's book is excellent. Also, it's Don Weber, not Webb.

[harry strasil]

Talk about an odd shavehorse! http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?169858-What-is-a-Bench

[Mike Holbrook]

Great tips on books and videos about chair making Jack and Steve. Thanks for letting me know about the name... Don Weber. I was having a hard time finding Don Webb. Nice one Harry! Steve's picture, Welsh stick chair, looks like what I am thinking about, mine may need a little heavier pieces though.

[Jack Curtis]

Talk about an odd shavehorse! http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?169858-What-is-a-Bench

Pretty cool, Harry; but don't you find it inconvenient to have to stand up for repositioning a piece/placing a new piece - aside from the fact of your cramping making otherwise impossible.

[Paul Saffold]

Peter's last blog was on his new shave horse.

http://pfollansbee.wordpress.com/2014/01/10/almost-as-popular-as-baseball/

[Mike Holbrook]

I am having trouble finding Don Weber or his web site. I found links to his site several times but they do not work. I am wondering if Don died or simply stopped doing commercial wood work? I found John Brown's book Welsh Stick Chairs. I also have Drew Langsner's The Chairmaker's Workshop on order. I am interested in videos or other books on the topic.

I talked to Tom Donahey about his shaving horses. Tom is making me one of his newer model horses.