Why loose tools in a tool box? Why even a tool box?

[Derek Cohen]

I have seen many tool boxes displayed here and there since Christopher Schwarz began popularising them. I see the point of their use for travelling carpenters and cabinetmakers. I understand if you simply lack the storage space. However I am not convinced of their purpose for the average woodworker with space in a dedicated workshop. Chris makes an argument for his tool box, but it is just not convincing to me. I just like to find my tools without having to rummage for them.


Perhaps the biggest issue I have with tool boxes are the tool trays. It is that the tools that are left loose to slide around and bang into one another. Marking knives, screwdrivers, rules, a compass, scribes .... the list is endless .... all of these with sharp blades or clean edges just waiting to be dinged. Not to forget cutting or stabbing oneself as you reach in.


I prefer a cabinet with shelves or hang it on the wall. Out of harms way.


So why the tool cabinets in your shop? Is this just a senseless fashion?


Regards from Perth


Derek​

[Steve Voigt]

I've done wall cabinets and it was ok, not great. I plan to build a traditional chest, and here's why.
Ten years ago, I was earning most of my living making cabinets, built-ins, and the occasional piece of furniture. This involved a lot of on-site work, so I bought one of those cheapo plastic tool boxes on wheels, with the large single tool tray. When I was done with the site work, I'd unload all the tools from the tray back into my wall cabinets.
However, each time I came back from a job, it seemed to take longer and longer to put the tools back in their cabinets. I tended to just take the top off the plastic tool box and work directly out of the tool tray. At the time, I assumed this was just laziness. It wasn't until years later, when I read Chris's ATC book, that it clicked…I had been unconsciously recreating the traditional tool chest scenario with my pathetic plastic tool box. There is something that is just very natural, not to say convenient, about looking down into the tool tray(s) and being able to see and grab most of your small tools. For me, anyway.
The tools in the tray don't have to bang into each other; you can make dividers, french fit them (I wouldn't, but you could), whatever. And I actually think you are less likely to cut yourself reach down into a tray you can see, than reaching back into a drawer. Chris's drawers (in his tool chest, that is :p ) look pretty unorganized, but that's just his take…he sure didn't invent this form.
I will say that I don't subscribe to the theory of fitting all your tools in the tool chest. My plan is to keep the "second string" planes and other infrequently used bulky tools in the bottom well. The trays will get filled with smaller tools. The "first string" planes will still live under my bench, and lots of other stuff, like saws, will hang from pegs on the wall.
This is probably not the most qualified endorsement, since I don't have the chest yet, but that's my plan, and my reasoning. But I would have zero interest in converting anyone else or talking them out of their current storage system.

[Tony Wilkins]

Where else are you going to sit to eat your lunch? (oh right, saw benches)

I had originally thought about hanging my tools open on the wall but all the talk in CS' anarchy box book about dust and rust has me rethinking. So now, in limbo, I have them neatly piled hither and yon on my bench.

[bridger berdel]

my preference is for drawers that are one tool deep for most smaller tools.
279228
279230

2 through 8 hang in a cabinet:
279227

other planes are in deeper drawers. p*wer t**ls are either in their own cases or grouped by kind in even bigger drawers.

I like drawers. that way things have a place, they are out of the way and protected from dust. some things end up jumbled in toolboxes, generally things that are grouped by function, especially if that function is on site rather than in shop. but even some of those boxes have drawers.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of the time my tool boxes are only used for taking tools out of the shop.

My indoor storage is still in a state of flux.

jtk

[Roderick Gentry]

I respect and read what I can of CS's work, but I am not aware of ever following his advice on anything. He has a niche which is modernism combined with resurrection of old methods. The horse drawn light aircraft approach to things. I am partially a cabinetmaker, been at it 35 years. I use open racks, cabinets, and mess in my shop. Seem as though as a cabinetmaker I should be aware of trends in storage, improvement and such. There is constant change in the way we organize, heat, light, an layout stuff. Just consider light. Maybe having every tool in a small space was better for lighting. Who knows, we do know hundreds of years have passed, there are no apprentices in the US, in the real sense. What they did back then is largely irrelevant.

The problem I have with overly regimented storage is that it freezes tools, and their introduction into the shop, into a point in time. That could hardly be more ridiculous in connection with CS's influence of general tool mongering. Of course there are more and less flexible ways of racking things. I use a combination of fixed racks, and one that one can stuff things on. Tool boxes seem to run a gamut from ones with open bits, to one with flocked, fitted, compartments. The one tool box I use goes 2 thousand miles each year, I put stuff in sock or original sleeves or tool rolls, and have never had a problem. So I guess it can be made to work.

[Don Dorn]

I understand Derek's point. Other than a small Japanese toolbox for those few things I take somewhere else, I prefer to work off the wall behind my bench. The upside is that everything is there from clamps, to drills, dogs, chisels, 2 commonly used planes, saw, marking tools, screwdrivers, etc It's very handy and nothing bumps into each other. The downside is that it looks bad having so much hanging off the wall. However, the the Shakers said "beauty lies in functionality" and I can apparently overlook the aesthetics in favor of complete convenience.

[Chris Griggs]

It probably makes a lot of sense for CS to have one given how much he teaches and is on the road. The recommendation for having a chest as ones main workshop storage however, confuses me as well.

[Hilton Ralphs]

The recommendation for having a chest as ones main workshop storage however, confuses me as well.

Perhaps if your bench is smack in the middle of your shop and the walls are accommodating other things like Cliff Richard annual calendars.

[William Adams]

When the pipe to our bathroom sink burst, I was very sad my tools were hanging on the walls of my end of the basement laundry room/workshop and not easily moved.

[Chris Griggs]

When the pipe to our bathroom sink burst, I was very sad my tools were hanging on the walls of my end of the basement laundry room/workshop and not easily moved.

That's a really good point. I definitely worry about what would happen in a basement water emergency. The flip side is, for me, if water were to come in my basement it likely wouldn't reach shelving. I would worry about having my chest full of tools on the floor. I guess one could make a stand for their chest though.

[Sean Hughto]

I would think as an Aussie this would be obvious: In the post-apocalyptic waste land you're gonna wish you had an Anarchist's tool chest or at least a little Dutch one!
http://media.weirdworm.com/img/people/4-actors-who-shouldnt-have-come-back-for-the-threequel/thunderdome1.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=Lh_VOG7pt4wjQM&tbnid=8UvP62-W4eax0M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpeak326.soup.io%2Ftag%2Factors&ei=Ow7MUqOdMsLksATAjIGoDQ&bvm=bv.58187178,d.eW0&psig=AFQjCNG8UzMKn7-XP3s344hGVvJKUjbOIA&ust=1389190999195175)

[george wilson]

My tool box is 30' X 40' with a 16' X 22' original tool box. It has 450 feet of shelving. I do have my original tool box made in 1970 and used in the instrument shop. It seemed appropriate to have one in an historic style shop.

[Augusto Orosco]

What attracts me is the idea of keeping dust and rust at bay, which is a bigger deal when you can't use your tools too frequently and they could sit idle for weeks at a time. Open shelves won't do that for me, and a closed cabinet on the wall is almost like a vertical tool chest without the mobility.

But I see Derek's point and am still torn if I want a tool chest of a several closed cabinets. In my case, my wall space is very limited, so a tool chest brings some additional advantages. I am still undecided...

[Sean Hughto]

There is a certain posterity aspect to putting together a kit. One imagines it being easier to pass down the kit than the unassembled shop contents. Think Studley as well.

[Brian Holcombe]

I prefer them all neatly arranged on the wall, but I don't travel to jobs.

[Hilton Ralphs]

a closed cabinet on the wall is almost like a vertical tool chest without the mobility.


You could of course change that by mounting the cabinets with French cleats. Add a couple of handles to either the top or sides and it becomes mobile. This is especially dandy if you are renting a place where at least in this country, the law states that you can't remove fixed furnishes.

[David Weaver]

So why the tool cabinets in your shop? Is this just a senseless fashion?



It's just another fad to trot out to beginners, that's my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to have it just because I do. The real questions in woodworking start more like "what do you want to make, and what do you want it to look like so that it's attractive", and that kind of stuff isn't what CS could trot out to beginners (they usually don't have a clue what looks good, half the time I still don't, but I've gained an eye for it). When I say beginners don't have an eye for what looks good, I mean that once they have had some exposure to design, they likely will feel like they wished they'd have spent more of their early time figuring out what makes for tasteful design than just copying things by various writers. I made some things early on that have tighter joints than I've made on anything since, and they've held up well, but they don't exactly seem tasteful to me now.

With a stationary workshop, I also have nearly all of my tools on shelves. The saws are out in the open in front of my bench on the wall, and the three planes I use the most are on a rack within reach, same with the chisels - either in the open or on a rack that I can get to without digging things. I can't stand digging through things when I want to be working on something, it ruins your rhythm and your train of thought (even if you don't think you have rhythm).

[Maurice Ungaro]

I've labored with this. I like the "rack on the wall" system, and have that over my bench. I also like the Studley wall "chest" arrangement. I think it's best left to the scenario and user. For me, I have downsized twice, and now reside in a house with an attached one car garage. Don't know the last time that garage has seen a car, but since I've moved in it's been wired, insulated and clad in wood. It holds: a full wood working shop; six bicycles; a full size gun safe; reloading bench, and the back wall is dedicated to a lumber rack.
Now, while we all can claim that with all the wall space, I'm set. Kinda, sorta. I even, to myself, railed against the traditional English chest, as my floor space is at a premium. Enter the Dutch Tool Chest. It's slim profile allows me to stow it under one end of my bench. The interior space accommodates essential tools and has ability to morph with imagination.
No one particular item is a panacea - you need a systematic approach. For me, the DTC may very well be one part of a system. The second part is going to be a cabinet to store the planes that are not going to fit in the DTC. In other words, the less commonly used planes, but ones worth keeping. Another part will be a purging. Nothing drastic mind you, but duplicative things acquired in the heat of things, items that work, but replaced by those that work better, etc.
The fourth part is a bench to replace the first one I made. It will be stouter and longer, and will allow me to work more efficiently. Yes, it will be a Roubo. My oak slab is secured. Benchcrafted hardware is on a rack in my shop awaiting installation. Just need to adjust my 65 hour work week to get it done.

I guess it all comes down to preference, ability, & work habits. I cannot refute the abilities of Derek Cohen, George Wilson, and even Chris Shwartz. Each one has their own system, yet each produces good work.

[Sean Hughto]

It's just another fad to trot out to beginners ...

I'll disagree. If you have tools you need storage and organization to keep them. There are lots of options for accomplishing storage and organization including chests. There is no one right solution for everybody, but chests are likely the best solution for many. I don't see a significant difference between a rolling cart like this and a traditional chest:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2317/2281043624_ff65229e3b_z.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2586/3948785593_82b43d1473_z.jpg

Or the cabinet aspect of a dutch chest and a wall cabinet:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2005/2265379117_79827c7179_z.jpg?zz=1

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3108/3256578957_10049bc58c_z.jpg?zz=1

Or tills in chests versus tills on walls:
http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2425/3929860183_bdbc77a648_z.jpg?zz=1

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2185/2233245819_4eeaaf9918_z.jpg?zz=1

[Maurice Ungaro]

What Sean said!

[Jonathan McCullough]

I like bridger's idea of a chest of shallow drawers; most tools will fit into, and would be well-organized by them. The configuration also wastes less space. Tool chests with sliding drawers take up a lot of floor space. Furthermore, a tool chest doesn't use as much of the volume for tool storage, as a chest of drawers would. I picked up a microwave stand at a garage sale for adaptation into a chest of shallow drawers with casters. The drawers would contain marking & measuring tools, chisels and gouges, planes that store flat, rasps & files, and odds and ends like screwdrivers and scissors. The back will have backsaws hanging on it, one side will have bench planes, the other side panel saws or maybe something else will suggest itself. The top would have a strop and maybe a fine hone for quick touch-ups; a dish for screws during assembly, some space for shop notes or a design. The idea is to roll it next to the workbench when working on a project, then put everything back at the end of the day/project/session. A place for everything and everything in its place.

The problem with organization is that you have to be constantly rethinking it until you have a full stable of tools to do the work you want to do. What starts out as a simple store-bought toolbox at age 20 doesn't suffice after you've learned what you need to know. And one of those things you need to learn to know is the mistakes you made, such as tools you thought would be great, and made room in your shop for, but have concluded are useless/dangerous/spacewasting wastes of time and money.

As I've become accustomed to home ownership, there are some tools that I find myself using over and over again and those go into a simple tool tote. Screwdrivers, combo square, hammer, block plane, channel-lok pliers, tape measure. Accessible without too much fussing. If I had everything figured out I'd post pictures. But that's why I think tool storage and organization is one of the most popular subjects in the magazines or on the web.

[allen long]

I am with Bridger on the drawers. I have a couple of large mechanics chests with shallow drawers for chisels, small planes, measuring items,scrapers, files, extra blades, etc. The larger planes rest in the open compartments in the tops of the chests.

Small clamps, large squares, levels, pliers, are mounted on the wall. I built drawers for under my traditional woodworking bench, but found that they are not very convenient as far as leaning over to reach anything in them. I wish I had built fewer drawers and left a shelf for a shooting bard, monxon vise, that sort of thing.

Since I don't like leaning over to grab frequently used tools from under a bench, I especially don't get having a pretty huge tool chest (in CS' case) on the floor. In fact, CS specifically advocates a chest design dimensioned to allow you lean over with one hand on an edge to support your weight as you rummage around the bottom for a tool. After about the second or third time doing that (maybe even the first), I probably would not be able to get back up!

Of course, many of my tools are conveniently stored on top of every horizontal surface in the shop instead of neatly stored in the aforementioned drawers . . .

[george wilson]

It should be remembered that Studley was working in a factory,or in a shop with other workmen. You HAVE to have a lockable chest to keep your stuff from being "borrowed" and never returned.

At a nearby shop where they make wind tunnel aircraft models,a requirement is a list of tools you must bring yourself,and a locking chest to keep them in. At 1 time I was getting sick of my boss,and went down there to check out the possibility of a different job. But,those type places constantly teeter on the brink of going out of business if they don't land government contracts. They wasted a million dollars secretly developing their version of a supersonic passenger plane. They put on a large cockpit canopy to fool the inspector about the actual size of the aircraft. It didn't fool me. I wonder how some inspectors get their jobs? The bottom fell out of that in a hurry when their noise became a big issue at airports.

[Joe A Faulkner]

I'm not naturally inclined towards organization. I can function (not necessarily at optimum efficiency) in a fairly disorganized space. This is not to say that I don't appreciate order and admire a well ordered shop, and even aspire to have one someday. It is just to note that organization is not my default mode of operation.

Over the years as I've acquired tools, usually the last consideration for the tool is "where am I going to store this?" The same can be said for supplies and lumber as well. I need these screws, these clamps, these chisels, this saw, I need this finish, I need this lumber.

Oh look, someone is throwing away a perfectly fine cherry headboard, I can't let that go to the land fill, I can use that. Oh look, a laminated maple table top sitting on the curb on garbage day, that will fit in the back of my truck, I could build a sharpening station out of that. Oh look, a nice little cedar log, let's not burn that, I can make some jewelry boxes out of that. And so the collecting and hording goes, and then I reach a point of where I just can't stand the mess and I need to impose some order. It is so much easier and faster to organize things when their home is defined. Putting things where they belong is easy when they have a place.

So which comes first, the storage scheme for the tools, supplies and materials and then the tools, supplies and materials? Or do you start by gathering tools, supplies and materials and recognizing you need a storage plan? For some a tool chest may make a lot of sense, for others, it might be one more thing that looks cool, and I could build, so I build it, then I have to decide where to put it and what to put in it.

There certainly are handful of tools that I want at arms reach - utility bench chisels, a mallet, a coping saw, a backsaw, squares, rules, marking knives, glue, tape, pencils, and a few bench and block planes, and others that I'd like to see "put away". Since organization is not at the top of my need for inner peace, it will likely take some time for me to get there, but eventually, I'd like my shop storage to feature more wall cabinets with doors, mounted of course with french cleats. Maybe a variation on Gary Zimmel's shop: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/album.php?albumid=244.

So no tool chest for me, of course years ago, I said the same thing about a cabinet maker's workbench, and now I can't wait to finish my bench build which of course will feature storage (gads a tool chest!) under the bench. I guess this just proves that organizing and laying out one's shop truly is never done.

[David Weaver]

I don't know, Sean. All of that stuff looks a lot different than a chest with loose tools in it like Derek is talking about (as in, something intentionally portable for a shop where portability isn't an issue). Quite a bit of it looks a lot more like the stuff he's arguing for.

I have a bunch of stuff in a craftsman rollaway like a mechanic would use. Never considered it much like a portable historically accurate tool box. I'd hate to lift it. It's kind of like your roller there, except I'm lazier so I bought a cheap metal box with wheels instead.

The tool box thing has an air of playing billy-big-rigger to me, or a translation of the old ERTL commercials or something. "make one like you saw at the flea market". "just like the real thing, only newer".

Like I said, my opinion that there are things the target audience would be better serviced by unless they are actually traveling.

[Sean Hughto]

Have you seen the details of the Anarchists tool chest or the article on the big and small dutch tool chests? They have trays and dividers and such that don't leave much loose. Perhaps Derek's predicate is faulty?

[David Weaver]

>> Perhaps Derek's predicate is faulty? <<

Could be. I bought some of the Schwarz stuff early on and it became apparent that he was a writer satisfying his curiosity and practicality wasn't really the strong suit of all of it - and I stopped reading it (though he does a good job publishing material, and I'll buy if he's publishing something a professional wrote about).

As in, when I think of the few practicing professionals or very experienced woodworkers that I know, they don't worry about the things Chris writes about.

So, I relied on what Derek said and didn't adjust his statement - it would create a multiverse of arguments, and the universe of them is plenty.

[Sean Hughto]

I like Schwarz. I think his inquires are mostly pragmatic and not simply academic. He does lots of empirical stuff that leads to useful info. He seems down-to-earth and sincere. Like a friend who shares the hobby and tells you about their latest endeavors and hard won insights.

[Dave Anderson NH]

I have 2 inherited wooden tool chests, a real nice one of "standard historical size" and a smaller and more portable one which was nailed and butt jointed. Both are used mainly for storage of "spares" and rarely used tools. I also have a Craftsman double height red metal roll around mechanics chest for soldering, plumbing, precision test and measurement machinists tools,and other non-woodworking type items. Being well aware of my personal tendencies to fail to put tools away after use, the vast majority of my woodworking hand tools are on the wall behind my bench which is 4 feet from the wall. This allows me to just turn around to grab a tool within reach and makes it far more likely it will get put away after use. Like Derek's supposition, I find wall mounted tools to be far more convenient than rummaging around in a tool chest.

As a bit of heresy, when I go off to demonstrate hand tool woodworking or teach a class, I put the necessary tools in a gray Craftsman plastic tool box and a couple of canvas totes. Items are padded and protected from each other with old tee shirts, dead hand towels, and other cast off household cloths.

[David Weaver]

I like Schwarz. I think his inquires are mostly pragmatic and not simply academic. He does lots of empirical stuff that leads to useful info. He seems down-to-earth and sincere. Like a friend who shares the hobby and tells you about their latest endeavors and hard won insights.

I think a lot of people do, and that's fine. I see it as an indirect route to get to what I really want to get to, though.

It's sort of like learning mathematics from someone who doesn't have a great grip on it yet, or taking golf tips from a friend who has a similar handicap. Those kinds of things are useful the for an introduction to mathematics or the first few rounds of golf you play. After that, it seems to me that a combination of professional opinion and time spent "in the dirt" (as hogan put it) is more appropriate unless it's a social sharing of common level insights.

By the number of people who go to 1 hour or 1 day classes on subjects, or who buy literature and videos, it's clear that not everyone shares my opinion. this isn't the only subject where that's the case.

And because of that, anyway, I'd rather not extrapolate on the question.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Sean

This is Chris Schwarz' tool chest (but please note I was not referring to his specifically, but the multitude of tool chests I have seen that look the same, that is, store tools loose like this) ...

http://simonstl.com/pics/toolchest/travel_toolchest09172012A.jpg

Now I just Googled. I have no idea whose tool chests these belong to ...


http://brownellfurniture.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/traveling_anarchist_tool_chest_1.jpg

http://theresurgencemsu.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/img_0792.jpg

There are many, many more.

As I mentioned at the start, I can understand why a travelling woodworker needs a tool chest. I can accept that some woodworkers at home lack space to house their tools. But for the rest?? However, more than this, I just do not understand blindly following a fashion where sharp tools are left to bump into one another in trays.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

What is the mile long dovetail saw for? I can't recall why he got that made.

[Sean Hughto]

I don't quite understand why you seem to exhalt "professionals" so much. Certainly professionals will have insights into topics professionals do that hobbiests do not - running a business; producing efficiently, cost containment, winning clients, etc. And they may be faster at certain operations. And they MIGHT have developed taste and the ability to create new designs, but many might make lots of plywood kitchen cabinets or simply reproduce antique forms. Amateurs, who have the luxury of time and no limits on their purse strings, may also have taste and creative inspiration. In short, I'll learn from anyone who has something to teach me.

Also too: Krenov - "I've never made furniture professionally," he told Oscar Fitzgerald in an interview in 2004. "I'm an amateur and always will be. That's the way I want to die. I'm an amateur by nature. David Pye wrote somewhere that the best work of this century would certainly be done by amateurs."

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Last time I saw Chris discussing his tool chest, I believe he had the majority of sharp things in leather rolls?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

What is the mile long dovetail saw for? I can't recall why he got that made.

It was a sort of joke saw - I think it was actually Roy Underhills? I remember seeing videos of him hamming it up in his usual fashion with it at Woodworking Shows. Lie Nielsen made it. Something about a "one stroke dovetail saw" or something. Nothing really for sale or purposeful, although I kind of wonder how many folks actually tried to get one after seeing it and not getting that it was supposed to be a "real fake" tool.

[Sean Hughto]

Fair enough. I was remembering things like slots for things like the chisels in the penultimate picture above. Then again, is there much difference between these trays and a drawer in rolling cart? Or perhaps you are saying you don't like drawers either - everything should be hung on the wall or in a slot in a cabinet?

[Jonathan McCullough]

a writer satisfying his curiosity

I'd suggest that during this hand tool/old tool renaissance a lot of people (myself included) have discovered that hand tools can be easier to use and give more pleasing results, along with the discovery that old methods of work can be quite effective. That requires some scholarship, some experimentation, and published results. It would be a hoot to write about looking up old methods and fixtures, building them, and discussing their relative merits. Looking over Chris Schwartz's work, there are some hits, some misses, and I'll let you all decide which you think are most useful to you, but one thing I think most of us can agree on is that he's certainly not regurgitating for the umpteenth time the same tired old magazine articles from yesteryear. He's inquisitive, has an engaging writing style, and although I wouldn't build the Anarchist's Chest, I think there's something to be learned from his process.

Agree with your post #26 above. I even have . . . wait for it . . . one of those black $150 rolling tool chest-on-chest specials from Harbor Freight for wrenches, gear pullers, mechanic-y stuff. Works really well I have to say, and sort of where I got the idea for my woodworking version. I'd get another but just want to make my own. If you're a woodworker, you should make it, right? That's my plan.

[Chris Griggs]

I like Schwarz. I think his inquires are mostly pragmatic and not simply academic. He does lots of empirical stuff that leads to useful info. He seems down-to-earth and sincere. Like a friend who shares the hobby and tells you about their latest endeavors and hard won insights.

I agree. I like a lot of his stuff. When these threads come up I always like to say that I think of him as a professional woodworking hobbyist (and I mean that in a complementary way). I'm not going to make a big floor tool chest, but have gotten a lot of great insights from him. Now that I have some of my own experience and opinions there's stuff he recommends that I don't necessarily agree with, but I think a great deal of his stuff is really helpful and applicable to small, home-based, hand tool oriented shops. Many of us here on SMC are pretty darn academic too, so I certainly would not criticize him for that as I am, for better or for worse, very much an academic by nature in everything I do.

Actually, as much as the recommendation for using a chest like his first one in stable home shop confuses me, I do dig that dutch tool chest. Its more of a mobile shelving unit which does very much appeal to me.


, I'll learn from anyone who has something to teach me.


Yes, this.

[Mel Fulks]

I see Schwarz as a kind of woodworking motivational speaker. He brings in new people and is a force against idleness.

[Bill Rhodus]

I think the usefulness of the chests depends upon your personal circumstances. I find that I prefer to have most of my tools in racks/shelves upon the wall if possible but I live in an environment that does not favor bare metal. 30+ years ago I began storing my planes, chisels, and whatnot in a surplus army footlocker and later graduated to a pair of chests made of plywood in which I placed desiccant packs. This seemed to help a great deal so I stayed with it. As I grew older and began thinking of leaving my tools to the next generation, I decided to build chests to replace the plywood boxes. The recipients will have to worry about how they want to store the tailed tool on the shelves.

[David Weaver]

I don't quite understand why you seem to exhalt "professionals" so much. Certainly professionals will have insights into topics professionals do that hobbiests do not - running a business; producing efficiently, cost containment, winning clients, etc. And they may be faster at certain operations. And they MIGHT have developed taste and the ability to create new designs, but many might make lots of plywood kitchen cabinets or simply reproduce antique forms. Amateurs, who have the luxury of time and no limits on their purse strings, may also have taste and creative inspiration. In short, I'll learn from anyone who has something to teach me.

Also too: Krenov - "I've never made furniture professionally," he told Oscar Fitzgerald in an interview in 2004. "I'm an amateur and always will be. That's the way I want to die. I'm an amateur by nature. David Pye wrote somewhere that the best work of this century would certainly be done by amateurs."

Yeah, I don't want to make anything that krenov makes (and never read any of his books because his furniture and planes told me right away that i'd have to get through a list of many other things before they were at the top of the list), and don't want to do any of the type of work Pye talks about. Until I'm good enough otherwise, I will probably make amateurish work, but that's not my goal and I don't want to make it a destination. I don't want to turn bowls or pens, make krenov planes, mission style furniture or stuff where people talk to trees and get sad, you know? I want to pick something specific and get good at it.

I'm not a frank klausz fanatic by any means - only have one video from him - but I remember him saying something along the lines of the problem with woodworkers in the united states is they think they want to do everything, and then they don't ever get good at anything.

As far as learning things, I sort of see it as, I could learn something from Chris Schwarz if I fished through 100 things I don't care about. Or I could learn the same thing instantly, much more finely, accurately, and in better context if I just called George.

[Steve Voigt]

I don't quite understand why you seem to exhalt "professionals" so much. Certainly professionals will have insights into topics professionals do that hobbiests do not - running a business; producing efficiently, cost containment, winning clients, etc. And they may be faster at certain operations. And they MIGHT have developed taste and the ability to create new designs, but many might make lots of plywood kitchen cabinets or simply reproduce antique forms. Amateurs, who have the luxury of time and no limits on their purse strings, may also have taste and creative inspiration. In short, I'll learn from anyone who has something to teach me.

Also too: Krenov - "I've never made furniture professionally," he told Oscar Fitzgerald in an interview in 2004. "I'm an amateur and always will be. That's the way I want to die. I'm an amateur by nature. David Pye wrote somewhere that the best work of this century would certainly be done by amateurs."

+1 to this.
I think having "professional" qualifications is important in many fields, but hand tool woodworking is not one of them. With the exception of specialized sub-trades like luthiery or Windsor chairmaking, almost no one earns a living working wood primarily by hand. The few that do tend to work in a protected environment like a museum, and augment their incomes with teaching (Peter Follansbee is a good example).
As I indicated in my earlier post, I once earned a living (though admittedly a meager one) from woodworking. There wasn't much time to use hand tools; I used whatever got the job done fastest. Now that I'm an amateur again, I know a hundred times more about hand tool woodworking than I did back then.

[David Weaver]

This has sort of gotten away from Derek's original question, and his conclusion. I agree with Derek (and subsequently Dave Anderson).

My parents have at least a dozen old chests, and some of them are old tool chests. They use them for decoration along open spaces in their house, as something to put items on top of for visual interest. It would be pretty easy for me to mooch one off of them, but I would much rather have my tools in open racks and on the wall.

I'd imagine a lot of the chests my parents had went on wagons, and in some cases, most of them are marked some way or another. They make nice decoration and storage for things they don't use very often.

[Jeff Heath]

Derek, I agree with you. To me, a tool box is in the same department as a tool tray on a workbench. It's a place where tools are difficult to find and reach. For my shop, I much prefer a wall hanging toolbox (presently under construction......after only 25 years). During my years as a very busy cabinetmaker, I would haul my tools in several "old school" carpenters boxes.....you know....the open box with the single handle running down the center. Even as a pretty big, strong guy, I would not want to lug an entire chest filled with all the hand tools I would bring with me. I don't know what a chest filled with tools would weigh, but I've got to guess in the neighborhood of 300 to 400 pounds. I'm a pickup truck guy, and wouldn't want to lug that box up and down out of the bed.

Having the tools in an open box hanging on the wall does two things for me.

1. It gives me instant access to whatever tool I need without having to move boxes or trays around.

2. At the end of the day, it instantly tells me what tools are not back in their place. I know a box would probably do the same, but it would require a thorough inspection, including removal of trays and boxes.

My .02

[Jeff Heath]

I see Schwarz as a kind of woodworking motivational speaker. He brings in new people and is a force against idleness.

I agree with this completely. Whether you agree with what he is saying/doing or not, he's always got something to say. This is a requirement for him to keep his name out in front of people, so they buy his books, and read his articles. I believe they call this "marketing". For him, it's probably what is needed to keep the wheels spinning, and food on the table.

I wonder how many people have built a Roubo style bench, or some hybrid of, because of all his time writing on the subject. I can honestly admit that I was never completely satisfied with any of my four previous workbenches in my shop. Each one had it's shortcomings. I did build my own version of the Roubo, and it's the best bench for my style of work that I've ever built. I love it, and the Benchcrafted vises, as well. I didn't buy them because of Chris, though. I bought them because I know Jameel, and got a chance to see them in person. They solved all of my workholding problems, along with the better holdfasts from Grammercy, which came with the Benchcrafted hardware.

[Pat Barry]

It really irks me that we can spend as much thought and time as we do around here on such trivial issues as the merits of a stupid toolbox. If you need to transport your tools then, by God, you better have a box. I only hope its not so big that you can't carry it to where it needs to go.

[paul cottingham]

I seem to remember reading that Chris was really surprised that anyone was building the tool chests. (I realize he has developed a cottage industry for himself teaching classes on building them, but more power to him.) So i wouldn't get too worked up over that, to be sure. I found the book very helpful in deciding what tools I didn't need.
Useful indeed for a compulsive collector like me.

[Jim Foster]

Originally I did not have an interest in a tool chest like the ones seen in CS material. Recently I've changed my mind. I have tool holders along a triple window that hold many things, but at times when my shop gets too messy, I want to be able to clean and put away everything and start fresh. I also like the idea of having one place to go for everything I need while working at my bench. I think the tool chest would help do this. The tool chest can also help you focus on acquiring only the tools you need to be a woodworker and not become a hoarder or collector, since space in the chest has limitations. I'm lucky in that my shop space is good size for a home shop, but wall space is at a premium, and the chest would be right at home next to my bench on the floor.

[Sean Hughto]

I want to pick something specific and get good at it. .

Have you picked something or are you trying to choose still? What do you have in mind by "something?" How broad a category or genre?

An incoming freshman may be sure that their life would be complete if they studied medicine and became a doctor, but along the way, they might take an English class or read some history and take a completely different direction. Personally, with something like a hobby, I think we are happiest following our bliss. Then again, maybe your bliss is getting really good at "something." Maybe the something doesn't matter at that point - the delight is in the expertise?


I'm not a frank klausz fanatic by any means - only have one video from him - but I remember him saying something along the lines of the problem with woodworkers in the united states is they think they want to do everything, and then they don't ever get good at anything.


Sounds like a cheap shot. I think there are folks through history who do a lot of things - Da Vinci, Wilson, etc. Funny, in my experience, when you do that, one thing often informs another in a really fruitful way.

As Heinlein said:
http://d202m5krfqbpi5.cloudfront.net/authors/1192826560p2/205.jpg (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/author/show/205.Robert_A_Heinlein)“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”
― Robert A. Heinlein (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/author/show/205.Robert_A_Heinlein)

[David Weaver]

Have you picked something or are you trying to choose still? What do you have in mind by "something?" How broad a category or genre?

An incoming freshman may be sure that their life would be complete if they studied medicine and became a doctor, but along the way, they might take an English class or read some history and take a completely different direction. Personally, with something like a hobby, I think we are happiest following our bliss. Then again, maybe your bliss is getting really good at "something." Maybe the something doesn't matter at that point - the delight is in the expertise?



Sounds like a cheap shot. I think there are folks through history who do a lot of things - Da Vinci, Wilson, etc. Funny, in my experience, when you do that, one thing often informs another in a really fruitful way.

As Heinlein said:
http://d202m5krfqbpi5.cloudfront.net/authors/1192826560p2/205.jpg (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/author/show/205.Robert_A_Heinlein)

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.”


― Robert A. Heinlein (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/author/show/205.Robert_A_Heinlein)

It's either going to be furniture or tool making, I haven't made a decision yet, it will depend on whether or not I can carve at an acceptable level. I have a while to decide, before I have all kinds of time on my hands at home.

All of these arguments are great for describing why I should read something unrelated to toolmaking or furniture that's 200+ years old.

But in reality, that space is taken up by other things, not other areas of woodworking. As in, read about cosmology, programming, repairing cars.

Heinlein didn't say that you should "pitch manure, extract a birthing calf, feed cows in the morning, milk a shift, mix feed, shoe a horse, ...." You know what I mean?

What you are arguing is that we should be more varied within one of those areas. Personally, I wouldn't allow anything Chris Schwarz writes to crowd at any minute I'd spend reading cosmology-related material.

I'd much rather do two or three things really well than 15 in mediocrity.

[Sean Hughto]

That's all good and fair. I've enjoyed the exchange and learning about your approach and thinking. Thanks.

By the way, I should have credited Campbell (not quite cosmology, but pretty close in alot of respects to my mind):

"Follow your bliss"

One of Campbell's most identifiable, most quoted and arguably most misunderstood sayings was his admonition to "follow your bliss." He derived this idea from the Upanishads (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/wiki/Upanishads):

Now, I came to this idea of bliss because in Sanskrit, which is the great spiritual language of the world, there are three terms that represent the brink, the jumping-off place to the ocean of transcendence: Sat-Chit-Ananda (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/wiki/Sat-Chit-Ananda). The word "Sat" means being. "Chit" means consciousness. "Ananda" means bliss or rapture. I thought, "I don't know whether my consciousness is proper consciousness or not; I don't know whether what I know of my being is my proper being or not; but I do know where my rapture is. So let me hang on to rapture, and that will bring me both my consciousness and my being." I think it worked.

He saw this not merely as a mantra, but as a helpful guide to the individual along the hero journey that each of us walks through life:

If you follow your bliss, you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. Wherever you are—if you are following your bliss, you are enjoying that refreshment, that life within you, all the time. Campbell began sharing this idea with students during his lectures in the 1970s. By the time that The Power of Myth was aired in 1988, six months following Campbell's death, "Follow your bliss" was a philosophy that resonated deeply with the American public—both religious and secular.

During his later years, when some students took him to be encouraging hedonism, Campbell is reported to have grumbled, "I should have said, 'Follow your blisters.'"[ (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/#cite_note-55)

[Daniel Rode]

I have a toolbox I built years ago. The style is fairly standard with 7 drawers and a well at the top with a flip up lid. It doesn't resemble the Schwarz tool boxes. I made mine from walnut and curly "flame" maple and I still enjoy seeing it in the shop. I'm pretty sure it's never been moved more than a couple of feet, so I have no worries about things sliding around.

I have a variety of storage in the shop. Open shelving, peg board, cabinets, drawers, boxes and the occasional bucket or tub. In fact, I'm tempted to build more storage that features drawers like the toolbox. I tend to use drawers more for hardware than tools. Many of my tools are stored open with in reach of the bench. I don't travel with my tools and I don't want to rummage for them in the shop.

[Jim Koepke]

It really irks me that we can spend as much thought and time as we do around here on such trivial issues as the merits of a stupid toolbox.

Go placidly through the endless drivel on the ways of storing tools. Even the least significant post may have a tiny slice of information to glean which may later be put to use.

No one has forced me to read every post in this thread. No, it was my choice to go through carefully and make sure not a one bit of information was missed. Often with other threads if my interest has waned it is just ignored. It eventually moves down the page.

The thought and time put into sharing our tool storage plans, methods and ideas is more useful to me than many other ways my time could be spent.

As one who is still unsettled on the best methods of storing/protecting my tool investment some of the insights here are helpful. One of my intentions is to make sure my tools can serve at least one more generation.

As some have mentioned the large chest on a floor might be great for young people with strong backs. For those of us who rub our backs after tying our shoes it might not be such a great idea.

Some of us live in areas that have to deal with humidity or even flooding.

Under bench storage has draw backs for some.

To me there is value in even the most trivial detail in what does or doesn't work and the reasons.

I like:


A place for everything and everything in its place.

It is just a matter of coming up with a good design for all the places for all the everythings.

jtk

[Jonathan McCullough]

Yes, plastic tubs with lids and clearly marked labels on masking tape can keep things tidy and organized for access and cleanup. Good for awkwardly-shaped multi-part doodles with imminently lose-able parts such as rabbet planes, router planes, and combination planes with all sorts of blades, fences, rods, wing nuts. My gewgaws like that live in plastic bins until I've settled them into a permanent residence. While unlovely, the plastic never absorbs water. What would be better is hermetically sealed plastic bins with some silicon baggies. I plan to put a goldenrod in my wooden rolling toolapalooza to fight moisture and rust.

Another thing I've found useful is silverware boxes for chisels and carving tools. Around here a lot of people appear to be selling the family silver to be melted down, and are left with the lined boxes. I got about six empties at a flea market for a couple of bucks apiece and have put them into service for chisels, again, labeled with masking tape and a sharpie pen.

Braces are just damn awkward. I wish there was a more clever way to keep those tidy and out of the way. I have a variety on hand for specific uses--a 1/4" bit for 1/4" bolts, a countersink in a Fray for wood screws, one loose for screwdriver bits and brace bits. They're hanging on a series of nooses from a nail on the garage wall for lack of a better way--or wall space--to store them.

[David Weaver]

"Follow your bliss"


Very nice. I agree with the follow your bliss comment.

Fred Rogers at one point advocated simpler and deeper. He didn't mean anything related to woodworking, though, and what we're talking about but I like to pretend he did.

Different things move different people, and quite a lot of pieces of advice from philosophers and writers fail to recognize that some folks will like to do as heinlein advocates, and some will be much happer specializing in something that really moves them more than anything else (some can get all they've ever wanted in life out of one thing).

One of the reasons I always write that it's my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to have it is because, well, I don't. I don't think I'd have any trouble getting along with Chris S at a neighborhood party or if he lived next door. I just don't want to read books by amateur cosmologists, for example, unless I've run out of interesting material that I can understand from the professionals. Same with the woodworking. I'll start at the top of the ladder and work down. There aren't a lot of guys at the top of the ladder, because there are only a few wealthy clients who can afford their work, but they do exist. We have a top of the ladder craftsman here, and any time I have a question and I think "i really want to know the answer to this from someone who has seen or done it at the highest level and thought about it like I would" I just call George. My issues, personally, are more along the lines of having a million things I'd already like to do, but knowing I'll only be satisfied if I try to narrow it down to a couple and do it really well.

My wife calls me all or none...as evidenced by my stone pile.

[Don Dorn]

I'm not a frank klausz fanatic by any means - only have one video from him - but I remember him saying something along the lines of the problem with woodworkers in the united states is they think they want to do everything, and then they don't ever get good at anything.


I remember that and is the reason I quite trying to be a turner. That said, there isn't anything wrong with expanding your horizon, but I'm one who practices and practices a skill before using it on a project.

[Brian Holcombe]

David, I've seen you comment a few times about the designs of amateurs vs that of experienced woodworkers. I did attempt to provoke thought in the subject with a thread, but didn't find your participation. Could I trouble you to elaborate on the topic, maybe through example?

My thoughts on the matter are that an interest in architecture should be encouraged for woodworkers building case goods, tables and chairs.

[george wilson]

Don't sell David short. He is a very smart guy who makes much more money than I ever did. I am often surprised at what he knows at his relatively young age. Of course,being a craftsman can be a lot like being a musician. I have seen incredible musicians who worked at some mundane day job,just because most people didn't have enough perception to "get it". The consistent winner of the Union Grove Fiddler's Convention back in the 60's,Winnie Winston of the New York City Ramblers,was an absolutely amazing banjo player. He worked in a typewriter factory. Young and naive at the time,I asked him why. He said "Because I like to eat!" This guy could play Scruggs under the table any time. Lots of guys I knew could. But,Scruggs invented the style and knew how to market himself.

[David Weaver]

David, I've seen you comment a few times about the designs of amateurs vs that of experienced woodworkers. I did attempt to provoke thought in the subject with a thread, but didn't find your participation. Could I trouble you to elaborate on the topic, maybe through example?

My thoughts on the matter are that an interest in architecture should be encouraged for woodworkers building case goods, tables and chairs.

I certainly think that's fair. I am just getting to the point where I can tell if the proportions of something are pleasing, though (size of mouldings, orientation, etc). What I mean by pleasing is that there isn't something I will find wrong with them later when I have better taste.

Finding good architecture can be a challenge, depending on where you live, but a lot of the more tasteful trim and mouldings in houses pre-machine era seems to have a lot of design thought in it. The tops of the older buildings around here are certainly interesting, and even when they involve a lot of detail, are usually well proportioned.

I don't know much about chairs, though, I'll admit.

Looking at mouldings in older houses, and trim, etc, is a good place to sharpen yourself mentally and think about whether or not something looks good, and then try to examine why it does or doesn't.

[Chris Griggs]

I certainly think that's fair. I am just getting to the point where I can tell if the proportions of something are pleasing, though (size of mouldings, orientation, etc). What I mean by pleasing is that there isn't something I will find wrong with them later when I have better taste.

Finding good architecture can be a challenge, depending on where you live, but a lot of the more tasteful trim and mouldings in houses pre-machine era seems to have a lot of design thought in it. The tops of the older buildings around here are certainly interesting, and even when they involve a lot of detail, are usually well proportioned.

I don't know much about chairs, though, I'll admit.

Looking at mouldings in older houses, and trim, etc, is a good place to sharpen yourself mentally and think about whether or not something looks good, and then try to examine why it does or doesn't.

My new favorite place to look for design learning and inspiration is the P4A Antiques database (http://www.p4aantiquesreference.com/login.asp). Zach talked me into joining SAPFM and which gets you access to it and that alone is worth the price of admission. Thousands of historical examples of furniture and other stuff...with PICTURES. I've literally been on there everyday for that last week just looking at pictures. Its a way better education than any blog I've ever read. I'm also within walking distance from the Philly museum of art which is a phenomenal educational experience as well.

[Edward Mitton]

This thread is very interesting, and timely for my situation. I have recently been given the green light by the LOML to set up a woodworking shop in the partially unfinished basement. (The basement finishing itself is also a DIY project with its own story...) Currently my tool storage is based on a few under-bench drawers, a headboard / shelf unit from our old waterbed, old traditional carpenter's style tool totes sitting in a row on the floor next to the wall, and stuff hung from nails on nearby open wall studs.

The beauty of this is that I have the ability to start afresh with a tool storage layout scheme that will work best for me.
The way I am going about this is by placing only the tools I use most frequently on the top shelf of the headboard unit, or hung on the wall studs directly above it.
I already have all of the tools I always use out in the open and easy to reach.. It's just a matter of grab -em' and go.
Perfect for un-interrupted work-flow.
This set of tools will comprise the 'kit' that will go in a wall-hung tool cabinet and various saw / plane / hand drill tills. These are still in the process of being built.
Lesser used tools will then occupy the under bench drawers and tool totes.
I also keep a utility tool box full of mostly mechanic tools that I can haul around the house for various fix-it projects. Since a lot of these tools are useful near the woodworking bench, it resides nearby. In addition is a small toolbox housing all tools electrical.

[Brian Holcombe]

That's sort of what I've been driving at, wether or not we're talking about classical proportions or classical designs. The former seems a topic that is always capable of revealing a new facet. Many Modernist architects have achieved their best work through intense study of classical proportions.

I wouldn't discard machine age buildings however, you just have to look at the right ones. They also have some insight to reveal. I recently found out that Le Corbusier teamed up with a cabinetmaker who had earned rank as an MOF at one point in his career.

Also I think part of being a hobbyist is understanding that your work will be a never ending progression and finished projects are a glimpse into your ability at the point of completion. That being said I appreciate your perspective, I feel the same way when it comes to delving into new areas of woodworking. I always feel I need to study the subject intensely before building anything that I will have to look at for any length of time.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

. . . As some have mentioned the large chest on a floor might be great for young people with strong backs. For those of us who rub our backs after tying our shoes it might not be such a great idea. . . .

I'm still younger than a lot of folks here, but I have a fair amount of back pain. At work, there's a lot of getting things from just-above-floor level depending on what tools I'm running (I'm a line-worker at a semi-conductor fab) nothing more than probably 10 pounds of weight, but the up-and-down can be tough depending on how I'm feeling. One thing I was taught by an older fellow who has some back pain, was that if you brace one hand against something, and then sort of raise one leg as you bend over (yes, you look a bit like a silly ballerina), you move most of the actual bending to your hips; your back doesn't have to bend at all. It helps me a lot on days things are hurting, and it wasn't quite intuitive at first.

I'm not trying to push anyone towards a tool storage method here, just throwing it out there, because it hadn't quite occurred to me.

Me, I store my tools in a wall cabinet because the small area I carved out for a "shop", making a wall space was easier than making floor space. I think a small chest might have been nice though, because my tool cabinet is a little farther from the bench than would be ideal, and if I put it closer, I would have to be working around it because it juts out from the wall quite a bit. If I had a bench with more overhang, I would have been tempted to go with the floor chest, because I could roll it under the overhang when not in use, and not really "lose" space, and use the walls for something else. (right now i'm wishing I had a little more useable wall space for storing other things.)

At my old house, we had a fairly shallow closet in an odd space in the house - given how dry that house was (my wife came with plants and a giant turtle tank, so things are humid here, which led to my first trials with rust) it made awesome tool storage, using the shelves in there combined with pegs on rails along the little bit of showing wall and pegboard over most of the back of the closet door. It was nice enough that if I end up in another situation where it's feasible, even if I need to throw a little heater in there and seal it better, I'll build a similar shallow closet for my next place.

[David Weaver]

Also I think part of being a hobbyist is understanding that your work will be a never ending progression and finished projects are a glimpse into your ability at the point of completion. That being said I appreciate your perspective, I feel the same way when it comes to delving into new areas of woodworking. I always feel I need to study the subject intensely before building anything that I will have to look at for any length of time.

I agree. I don't want to suggest that nobody should make anything until they are perfect in design. I just think even beginners should do a very thorough job of starting to look around at the design of things, and thinking about why things look good and why they don't. The worst thing to me, is to make something with poor design (i can live with suboptimal execution) and then have someone point an element out and I look at it and feel like it was trivial and obvious and I should've noticed.

IF someone points out that I have a gap in a moulding at a corner, I can live with that, it only bothers me if the gap is there and it's part of executing at the time of the build, but even then, it's not that big of a deal to me if it's not an easy fix.

The guy who taught me to woodwork at first was so over the top into execution and none on design that I started out really skewed. I got into hand tools totally by myself, because they seemed more stimulating than the JDS multirouter, and took a lot of heat at the time for it. I think he has stopped woodworking.

So, anyway, execution gets better by repetition but design sense has to be learned and takes more thought, to me. More emphasis should be on it from the beginning - in my opinion.

It really helps you appreciate how some of the architectural elements in older houses are put together - how big they are, how they're oriented, etc and what makes them attractive.

[Mel Fulks]

David, woodworking has been mentioned by at least one other philosopher .Marcus Aurelius : is the cucumber bitter? Cast it aside! Are there thorns on the path ? Go another way! Do not ask why such things exist, you might as well ask a carpenter why his shop floor is covered with shavings.... He goes on to say that nature has niether dump or supply house
and makes every thing out of old stuff.

[Brian Ashton]

If you live in the frozen North then storing your tools may not be as crucial. I can remember leaving planes out for days in my old shop in Canada. But living anywhere where there is reasonable humidity and they will rust. I've seen rust form on my tools after a day, it reacts very quickly with your sweat (because your sweating in the heat and humidity) and leaves nice hand prints on all your tools. So for me hanging them on a wall is out of the question. Everything is behind doors or drawer fronts of some fashion, except the lathe and bandsaw - for obvious reasons. But they do get covered up with old sheets...

I love the stainless tools that Lee Valley was playing with a couple years back.

[David Weaver]

David, woodworking has been mentioned by at least one other philosopher .Marcus Aurelius : is the cucumber bitter? Cast it aside! Are there thorns on the path ? Go another way! Do not ask why such things exist, you might as well ask a carpenter why his shop floor is covered with shavings.... He goes on to say that nature has niether dump or supply house
and makes every thing out of old stuff.

That must be the Marcus who was Georges apprentice!

[John Coloccia]

Personally, I think you should just start building whatever it is you want to build, and let the storage systems develop organically as you figure out what you need. I think we've all probably spent too much time organizing and storing, and not enough time making progress on our project...at one time or another, at least. Generally speaking, the "working" shops are always in some state of disarray because no storage system actually works all well all the time :)

[Maurice Ungaro]

Personally, I think you should just start building whatever it is you want to build, and let the storage systems develop organically as you figure out what you need. I think we've all probably spent too much time organizing and storing, and not enough time making progress on our project...at one time or another, at least. Generally speaking, the "working" shops are always in some state of disarray because no storage system actually works all well all the time :)
Wow…John hit that one on the head!

[M Manlove]

Whatever works! In 50 plus years of doing this thing with wood I have used 60 or more ideas. Your needs can change as your work type changes. Age has made a difference to me. I like drawers. One tool deep drawers. Viet Nam left me a little broken years ago. It didn't bother me for 40 years. Now I occasionally shake like a dog passing a peach pit. I don't want to move one thing to get to another. My walls are full. My workbench has tools laying around on it. I'm happy!!!!!!!!! My wife says I should clean up everything every day. I told her I didn't want her to like it in my shop. I cannot imagine a place for everything and everything in it's place. I couldn't buy a new tool without remodeling. I would never subscribe to that!!!
(she really is welcome there, just kidding)

[Jim Matthews]

I'm always surprised at the effort people put into shop fixtures.

I'm happy with a cheap dresser reconstituted as a tool storage unit.
Wooden drawers seem to treat my cast iron tools better than a roll around metal storage chest.

My memory must be failing, because I can only remember the tools displayed in the open.

It also keeps me from hoarding. It's a real problem - lots of cheap tools that need fix'n.
Better to have fewer that work without any ministrations.

[Chris Fournier]

I'm not sure that I understand Derek's first post all that well. First Derek uses the term "box", then at the end of the post he asks if "cabinets" are just fashion.

If I answered Derek's post as it was presented I'd say that a tool box or "chest" is a period piece and doesn't really have a practical place in 2014. Studley's super famous tool chest still makes me ache for retirement and the time to imitate - gorgeous and I'll never do it. Of course all of those tools filling it were a bit attractive too. I'd look better standing beside a super model if you know what I mean.

Are cabinets fashion? I don't really know how to answer this either but I would say that cabinets have been storing items effectively for long enough to move past the fashion/fad phase.

So what? What's right? What would Jesus say? Seems to be the tone of this thread.

What works for you? No I didn't ask what are you getting by with or what is your current interim set up or what do you think will work for you once you build it, I asked what works for you - works for you.

I have to agree with Sean and his observations although I am not terribly interested in the writings of Chris Schwartz. In no way does this reflect poorly on CS or his loyal readers, he simply came too late in my woodworking career to present anything new. David Pye is another story! Every craftsman should read his work, it won't make you a better woodworker but it may help you understand why you do it.

I am attaching some photos that I have posted before. I am attaching them to back up my verbage. I store some tools on the wall in front of my bench, these tools are either often reached for or too awkward for storing in a cabinet - saws, measuring tools etc. Many tools are stored in "fashionable" cabinets at my bench. They are small, valuable and in my opinion best stored in cabinets, one of these cabinets makes my bench very heavy - also good.

279297279298279299

Sorry I don't currently have an image of the wall in front of my bench. Be sure that there are no handplanes on the wall - too risky to my way of thinking, gravity never sleeps.

Functional is always fashionable even in the world of working wood with handtools so lets let that go. To that end site work invloves tools in soft bags in tool wraps etc., not very sexy.

For Derek, David and Chris I will include one more photo, hand cut dovetails in my bench. They were appropriate for the piece and very helpful selling my skills to clients, sort of a big business card if you will. In the end hand cut dovetails were involved in maybe 10% of my commissioned work but they caught the clients eye and then client focused design sold the work.

279308

And this is what being a professional is about - selling work. Professional is not about being at the pinnacle of the craft, it's about making money in the craft. A stroll through the much maligned back issues of FWW'g will show you what amateurs are capable of - quite simply some of the finest woodwork ever done. Remove the profit motive and replace it with passion and fine craft will be found.

There, I think that I have managed to touch on 4 pages of posts about boxes, cabinets or whatever!

[Chris Griggs]

Your bench is what I want for my next bench Chris! I really want some under bench storage and the Fortune-Nelson really appeals too me...despite (and possible because) its totally different from what I have and what I'm used too.

P.S. There are too many damn Chris's being referenced in this thread and really this forum. Chris Me, Chris F, Chris Schwarz, Chris V is probably lurking around here somewhere, and I think there are others too. The rest of you guys all need to change your names! Alternatively, you may all simply refer to me as "The Griggs"

[Tim Null]

I have read this thread with much interest. I read Derk's posts and usually agree with most of what he writes. I also read CS and like a lot of what he writes as well. Tool storage really is what works for you. I am now in a 1300 sq ft shop in an industrial complex. Next to me are are guys who run businesses to make a living. When I moved in, they kept asking me what I was selling and where my employees were. Still get that when I have wood delivered...lol.

The idea for a chest seems to be to have all of your tools within arms reach. I don't. I have a lot of space. Three workbenches (on a Roubo and I like it) and a off feed table behind my table saw that gets used quite a bit as an assembly surface. My tools are in a stacking cabinet with drawers. Large on the bottom for planes, small on the top for measuring items. IN between holds drills, chisels, rasps, screws, etc. Top is a small work surface. Behind and attached is a surface that holds screwdrivers, mallets, large rulers, squares, and other measuring items. Attached is a saw rack. To the left is a wall mounted rack for braces, and other various items. It is near two benches but on the other side of the shop from the table saw and bandsaw. My point is that I don't mind walking a few steps to get tools. I am a hobbyist, not a professional. I don't have to be efficient. The more steps I take, the less time on my spin bike...lol. At my age, I need to burn as many calories as possible. My clamps are on a mobile rack, but I never wheel it to the work. It stays at the end of my shop and I walk the few steps to get them. Many would say my shop is inefficient. If you were paying me to build, then yes. I like having the space and being able to move around. If I must take a few extra steps to get to my tools, so be it. The extra calories I burn are like a free pass to dessert after dinner....after the obligatory 45 minutes on that spin bike...

So a chest seems cool, but having to sift through layers of tools, or shift sliding trays to get to your tools is not my cup of tea. My drawers are set up so each tool has its place. Not rally custom dividers, but room for each without touching. Use the tool, put it back in it's spot, eventually...

If I was strapped for space, then a chest might be the ticket. Lots of tools in a small footprint. Or if I had to pack up and go, or if others came into my shop and I needed to protect my tools from walking away. But my shop is my shop. Don't feel like cleaning up tonight, lock the door and go home. I usually do this during a project and clean up after to start fresh for the next project.

Love the comments from so many different perspectives. No right answer, just lots of different ways to get things done. I love the fact that I can come here and get a fresh perspective on woodworking. I will read about a technique or process that I may not have thought about before. Thanks guys.

[william sympson]

I was never attracted to the English style floor chest - I don't see the utility or any convenience with them. I've never read CS's Anarchist book or any others of his - although I do read his blogs and someday i may get a book or two...some of his titles seem of value. I see him as a bit of a investigative historian and appreciate what he does, although I don't think his work is somehow Gospel - I read and take in what's practical and makes sense to me.

On to storage...I have no available wall space in the garage, it is all covered by shelving for household goods storage- my woodworking tools were stuck in the meager drawers of an HF bench in the corner and on the shelves among the boxes and bins or on top of the bench and in the way. I saw the Dutch tool chest at a LN tool event before it was published was immediately attracted to the simplicity and utility - i can move it to where i am working, be it at the bench, across the garage or into the driveway when something is on horses, in the backyard on the timber frame deck, etc. Nothing is loose that can't be loose.
279314279313279312

I really enjoy it - i use something and then return it to it's place. I have magnets on the underside of the floor for my large 1.5" & 2" chisels, spokeshaves, et al. So all the hand tools i have are in the chest and only a step away. I think it is a great design and was a good opportunity to practice.

William

[Brian Ashton]

you may all simply refer to me as "The Griggs"


I this day and age that's way too long of a name to type. How bout just Griggs. Or if you were upside down in aus you'd be Griggie or Griggo

[Chris Griggs]

I this day and age that's way too long of a name to type. How bout just Griggs. Or if you were upside down in aus you'd be Griggie or Griggo

Any of the above are fine. Those or Griggsy or His Griggsness or El Griggserino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing.:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be7Og9Gc_KY

[David Weaver]

Any of the above are fine. Those or Griggsy or His Griggsness or El Griggserino, if you're not into the whole brevity thing.:)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Be7Og9Gc_KY

One of the four best movies ever made, along with What's Eating Gilbert Grape, Office Space and Napoleon Dynamite.

[george wilson]

Chris F.,can you come down here and neaten up my shop,pretty please?:)

[Chris Griggs]

One of the four best movies ever made, along with What's Eating Gilbert Grape, Office Space and Napoleon Dynamite.

Agreed for sure, on 3 out of 4. I haven't seen Gilbert Grape in years and don't remember hardly anything about it so I can't attest to that...given the accuracy of your statement regarding the others though, I will trust your judgement on Gilbert Grape as well.

[David Weaver]

Totally different kind of movie, but appeals to me growing up rural and knowing a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise fit in mainstream society.

[Chris Fournier]

Chris F.,can you come down here and neaten up my shop,pretty please?:)

If you simply stop actually working in your shop it looks just like that! I have said it before, I put something away once I have moved it forever or broken it because it was not put away in its place. This is my second of three personal benches, I made it when I was working at my first bench with tools on the top and I roughly sent a LN scrub to the concrete because I did not have a proper bench or tool storage and was an oaf. I could have wept, instead I kicked myself in the arse and built this set up. A day late and a dollar short for my scrubber.

I would happily tidy up your shop George, please ignore the loose clothing...

[Jim Koepke]

And this is what being a professional is about - selling work. Professional is not about being at the pinnacle of the craft, it's about making money in the craft. A stroll through the much maligned back issues of FWW'g will show you what amateurs are capable of - quite simply some of the finest woodwork ever done. Remove the profit motive and replace it with passion and fine craft will be found.


professional
adjective
1 [ attrib. ] of, relating to, or connected with a profession : young professional people | the professional schools of Yale and Harvard.
2 (of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime

Yep, you have nailed it. I don't so much aspire to be a professional woodworker as much as being a woodworker who makes things people like enough to part with enough money to at least pay for the materials and maybe a little extra.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

Yep, you have nailed it. I don't so much aspire to be a professional woodworker as much as being a woodworker who makes things people like enough to part with enough money to at least pay for the materials and maybe a little extra.

jtk

I don't doubt that you will part folks from their money Jim, I just hope that the "little extra" is enough to make you happy, it doesn't have to be enough for me or the next guy as long as you don't live next to me!

There was a gentleman in FWW, and this was a long time ago before we argued about hand tools because we all understood what they were about (the project) and because there were less experts. I read about him in Scott Landis' Workshop Book. This fellow lived in California if I recall correctly and the shop he built was a temple, simple as that. Some years later in a FWW mag I read an article about these reproduction pieces that he had committed himself to making. They were on the scale of a Jacques Emile Ruhlmann piece and he was building multiples for his grand daughters. He was casting hardware if you can believe it! I read later that the gentleman had died, it was not mentioned whether he finished the pieces or not. It doesn't matter. This amateur had put the full force of his nature into this project and the work that he did was breath taking, the sort of work that royalty commissioned. I was in awe and humbled to read of his work.

I know that there are many more like him. I should add that this gentleman did not look for any self aggrandizement, he worked for himself and the ones he loved. Pure.

[Winton Applegate]

Of course . . . in my imagination . . . I have infinite space for many studios and work shops . . . and . . . all my tools are in hand made custom cabinets that look as good or better than Andy Raes's tool cabinet (yah OK even I can't imagine that one).
But in reality . . .

Poor or lazy or fill in the excuse here _____
man's
french fit tool tray/drawer liner. Wondering what to do with all those dovetail waste pieces ? Here yah go . . .
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Royaltyinourmidst_zps65295ba2.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Royaltyinourmidst_zps65295ba2.jpg.html)


This works pretty well to keep the planes from banging together etc
Plastic rubbing alcohol or laundry detergent bottles with one end or the other cut off.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2454_zpse416104a.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2454_zpse416104a.jpg.html)


I tend to have many interests and only so much work shop so the laundry room is the "tool crib".
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IncarcerationSociety_zpsf7bc3dc1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IncarcerationSociety_zpsf7bc3dc1.jpg.html)
I used to do a fair amount of portable metal working out of my Honda CRX.
Well lets just say I worked in a metal studio and I had much better tools than they did so I wound up taking what I needed there for the day and back home at night.
I don't do that any more but I kept the plastic tubs.

I like to use the minimum sports car that will get the job done.
Ha, ha, ha.
Need more capacity ? That was why they invented those small trailers.
Can't find a trailer hitch for your Honda CRX ?
That is why God invented the TIG welder.
There's my hitch up against the wall there. Upper photo just above the orange step stool. Bolts right into the same bolts as the vehicle shipping tie-down eyes. The epoxy paint is curing in that photo just before I bolted it on.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Enginetilterandtrailerhitchforanothersportscar_zps 596a5e4b.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Enginetilterandtrailerhitchforanothersportscar_zps 596a5e4b.jpg.html)

Doesn't mean I don' have wooden tool chests
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1468_zps0db7efca.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1468_zps0db7efca.jpg.html)


But I have my first love, the metal working tools, in them.
This is an old photo; I was demonstrating how maple yellows with age. The cabinet is about thirty five years old the plane about four or five in that photo.
Those are torch tips for brazing and torch welding.etc.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1576_zps31344b73.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1576_zps31344b73.jpg.html)

What ever gets brought out of the tool crib on metal baking trays or plastic tubs goes on to this huge rolling cart with a few shelves in it. It has rubber tires large enough to roll over electrical cords and small chunks of wood on the floor. The sides are covered with peg board, electrical strips, many pliers and nippers etc. and drafting style articulated lights on top. I also have a smaller stainless steel kitchen tower of shelves with wheels on it that works particularly well at the table saw.
Note the flex shaft grinder and yellow grab kneeling pad.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0185_zpsfc4d21d3.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0185_zpsfc4d21d3.jpg.html)

Hell even the stereo is on wheels. Separation? I don't need no stinking separation.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1512_2_zps22a9f4c3.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1512_2_zps22a9f4c3.jpg.html)

Yes moving the tools around gets old but . . .

[Shawn Russell]

I have personally adopted a multi-cabinet approach. I am using french cleats and several small cabinets for different tools. I had thought about building a traditional large tool cabinet but I like to move my shop around and I have yet to standardize on one workflow.

[Hilton Ralphs]

What would Jesus say? Seems to be the tone of this thread.


Well considering he was a carpenter, He would probably burst out in song.

Oh wait, that's a different carpenter....

[Chris Griggs]

Love the new avatar David!

[Jim Matthews]

Of course . . . in my imagination . . . I have infinite space for many studios and work shops . . . and . . . all my tools are in hand made custom cabinets that look as good or better than Andy Raes's tool cabinet (yah OK even I can't imagine that one).
But in reality . . .

Poor or lazy or fill in the excuse here _____
man's

This works pretty well to keep the planes from banging together etc
Plastic rubbing alcohol or laundry detergent bottles with one end or the other cut off.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2454_zpse416104a.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2454_zpse416104a.jpg.html)


I tend to have many interests and only so much work shop so the laundry room is the "tool crib".
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IncarcerationSociety_zpsf7bc3dc1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IncarcerationSociety_zpsf7bc3dc1.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0185_zpsfc4d21d3.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0185_zpsfc4d21d3.jpg.html)

Hell even the stereo is on wheels. Separation? I don't need no stinking separation.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_1512_2_zps22a9f4c3.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_1512_2_zps22a9f4c3.jpg.html)

Yes moving the tools around gets old but . . .

The tub storage idea is clever.
I'm keen on the utility or it, combined with the time it costs to make.

Kudos

[Pat Barry]

Love the new avatar David!
I still like Handsome Harley Race!

[David Weaver]

I still like Handsome Harley Race!

Yeah, harley is a cool dude, 100% authentic tough guy. I figured if I left it up he might find me. I hear he's in a chair these days or something of that sort from the beatings his body took, but I'm pretty sure he could get up out of it and pummel me.

So I'll go to Napoleon Dynamite. Figure the people who know what that avatar is about will get a chuckle, and the rest of the folks won't be offended :)

[Dave Anderson NH]

The following statement is gospel. There is only one correct way to outfit a shop.....your way.

That doesn't mean you can't borrow (or steal) ideas or plans from others. In fact it is unlikely that you will somehow invent some form of storage or shop furniture that at least one other person doesn't already have in use. One thing we have to separate here is that we are discussing two entirely different hobbies, shop building and woodworking. They are not mutually exclusive though depending on whether you are a woodworker, jeweler, machinist, etc, they could be. I enjoy both woodworking and shop building and have them mutually supportive. Whenever I needed either to learn a new technique or needed a new piece of shop furniture I would make every effort to combine the two. I needed some storage drawers and used them to learn to cut half blind dovetails. I needed drawer pulls for the drawers so I turned them out of scrap on the lathe. I needed a decent marking knife to get into narrow areas and a hammer for use on hand planes that wouldn't dent the wooden boddies, etc, etc, etc. If you need a new technique or a new tool, fixture, storage area, or anything else combine the two and you trebble your gain. If your first effort isn't perfect it makes no difference as long as it is serviceable and you always can continue your practice to perfect your technique, tool, or whatever by making more.

[george wilson]

I also enjoy shop building as well as making things. I have made several over the years,including 4 or 5 that were public in nature. Several school shops,and a few in Williamsburg. Unfortunately,every such shop I have put so much effort into has gone right down the tubes as soon as I left.

So will this present one when I croak. I hope the things I have MADE at least have some chance of surviving.

P.S.: I just saw that spell check turned "ONE" into "PINE". It does that a lot,and I don't know WHY. ONE is a common word. What's the deal with PINE?

[Jim Matthews]

I hope the things I have MADE at least have some chance of surviving.

I know my George Wilson plane will survive.
It's a treasure.

[Tony Wilkins]

Well considering he was a carpenter, He would probably burst out in song.

Oh wait, that's a different carpenter....

Well, he did fast for 40 days. (waits for lightning to strike...

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I love the way Lie-Nielsen has all their tools out in custom racks, ready to grab, but for me (tropical climate) that would mean instant rust. I have to be meticulous with rust prevention and find that tools stored in drawers are the safest. I have rechargeable silica gel packs in each drawer that need to be recharged weekly during rainy months.

I like my main bench centered in the room with a wide (46") tool box with shallow drawers directly behind it. This box is bench height with a wood top and needed tools can be laid out for easy grabbing during a project, and then placed in drawers when done. Wide drawers allow lots of tools per drawer- less drawers to pick through. Rubber shelf lining keeps loose tools from sliding around when opening and closing drawers or when moving the whole toolbox.

All my my planes now reside in plane socks. I hate them because they cover the beautiful planes, and make them harder to get to, but love them because they absolutely help control rust. I used to keep them on a shelf in the main bench but in the new shop they are going to be in drawer storage.

One drawback to tools hung on a wall is they are stuck there. A toolbox can be rolled around to different parts of the shop, or just rolled out of the way for a larger project, as is the case in my small shop. Also if you are a bench-against-the-wall guy, then you are constantly reaching over your work to grab tools, or the work blocks the tools altogether. I may have a 9' wood surfboard build on the bench for weeks at a time, and the secondary bench may become the primary for an in-between project. A rolling toolbox makes the move a simple task. My currently-being-dismantled shop had lots of hand tools on shelves in individual bins for storage behind my work table. That turned out to be a bad idea. It was very organized, but I had to climb over the table to get to them. I was trying to save floor space, but in the new shop I am gladly giving up a little floor space for two large rolling tool boxes. Only less-used specialty tools will be on shelves.

As someone said, storage is up to the preference of the individual and also dictated by the type of work they do as well as the size of their shop. In my case the climate is also a factor. There really is no right or wrong answer, save for just not having any storage solution at all and haphazardly tossing tools around- which would be quite wrong.

Cheers,

Malcolm

[John Coloccia]

There really is no right or wrong answer, save for just not having any storage solution at all and haphazardly tossing tools around- which would be quite wrong.


If that's wrong then I don't want to be right.

[Brian Holcombe]

I don't doubt that you will part folks from their money Jim, I just hope that the "little extra" is enough to make you happy, it doesn't have to be enough for me or the next guy as long as you don't live next to me!

There was a gentleman in FWW, and this was a long time ago before we argued about hand tools because we all understood what they were about (the project) and because there were less experts. I read about him in Scott Landis' Workshop Book. This fellow lived in California if I recall correctly and the shop he built was a temple, simple as that. Some years later in a FWW mag I read an article about these reproduction pieces that he had committed himself to making. They were on the scale of a Jacques Emile Ruhlmann piece and he was building multiples for his grand daughters. He was casting hardware if you can believe it! I read later that the gentleman had died, it was not mentioned whether he finished the pieces or not. It doesn't matter. This amateur had put the full force of his nature into this project and the work that he did was breath taking, the sort of work that royalty commissioned. I was in awe and humbled to read of his work.

I know that there are many more like him. I should add that this gentleman did not look for any self aggrandizement, he worked for himself and the ones he loved. Pure.

The right client can add something, in my opinion. They can push you to create at the next level.

[Harold Burrell]

My tool box is 30' X 40' with a 16' X 22' original tool box. It has 450 feet of shelving.

WHAT?!!! :eek:

[george wilson]

Yes,the result of a career of tool pigging machine hoarding and wood and metal lusting.

When you aspire to do all kinds of work,things can get complicated.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

If that's wrong then I don't want to be right.

Your tools will treat you as well as you treat them.

[george wilson]

John's work is just fine.:) But what you say is true. However,a little CAREFUL clutter is not the same as really banging them about or letting them get rusty. I have clutter,but the tools are carefully laid down and not banged together. I suffer from chronic fatigue and do not get REM sleep,plus my aches and pains. I don't keep up with neatness as well as I should any more.

[Winton Applegate]

Chris,

That wasn't Harold Ionson was it ? He wasn't in FWW or the work shop book though.
He is one of my heros.


There was a gentleman in FWWl . . .
He was casting hardware if you can believe it!

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/HaroldIonson_zps0da7b32e.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/HaroldIonson_zps0da7b32e.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/OhhhYah_zps48906276.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/OhhhYah_zps48906276.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Goodenoughforaretiredguyworkingathomeright_zps6ad9 a934.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Goodenoughforaretiredguyworkingathomeright_zps6ad9 a934.jpg.html)

[Chris Fournier]

Chris,

That wasn't Harold Ionson was it ? He wasn't in FWW or the work shop book though.
He is one of my heros.



http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/HaroldIonson_zps0da7b32e.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/HaroldIonson_zps0da7b32e.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/OhhhYah_zps48906276.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/OhhhYah_zps48906276.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Goodenoughforaretiredguyworkingathomeright_zps6ad9 a934.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Goodenoughforaretiredguyworkingathomeright_zps6ad9 a934.jpg.html)

Where did you find this article Winton? I have read a bout him in several places and I was certain that it was in Taunton publications. It was of course quite a while ago!
He made one of each of these pieces for each of his grandaughters I think.

[Brian Holcombe]

^awesome work.

Speaking of French Art Deco (ruhlmann) I stumbled upon the work of Silas Kopf at Rago auction about a year ago. He works in the French Art Deco style.

279531

[Winton Applegate]

BINGO !

Where did you find this article Winton?
Woodwork magazine.
February 2001

I used to enjoy them for the Biographical aspect of their articles. Some thing I finally gave up hammering at FWW to do more of if they wished to keep selling magazines to me. Apparently they DO NOT wish to keep selling magazines to me.
Ahhhh that was a good year for magazines. Remember those days ?
What happened ?

I used to get in the MG, put on the driving cap, Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer and I would tool over to Hathaway's, the tobacco and magazine shop (went out of business years ago) , buy about thirty or forty dollars worth of magazines each, what ever caught our eye, then drive to the Montague's goodies and coffee shop and encamp there for most of the day consuming embarrassing quantities of espresso drinks, cake, pastry, sandwiches and soup (in that order) and read and share until we were deliriously immersed in art and craft.

Now I sit on the couch and talk to you guys.
Kind of the same thing.
Fewer pictures though.
Here is Q suited up to help me in the shop when we cut the dog hole slots for my Klausz bench on the table saw with a big O honkin' dado stack. She said "I need something to hold, give me something to hold in the photo"; so I gave her a Samuel Smith Winter Welcome (http://www.merchantduvin.com/brew-samuel-smith-winter-welcome.php) bottle (empty).

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Myshopbuddy_zps191d8558.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Myshopbuddy_zps191d8558.jpg.html)

and here is a goodie similar to what Montague's has.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Hasmanydustisolatingcompounds_zps1224a9c1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Hasmanydustisolatingcompounds_zps1224a9c1.jpg.html )

OK back to Harold . . .

Check out his panel saw stable !

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/lotsOsaws_zpsf016019f.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/lotsOsaws_zpsf016019f.jpg.html)

And his jointer. A guy needs a jointer like that (just in case).

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2118_zpsbae73ba5.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2118_zpsbae73ba5.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2122_zpsddd4b33e.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2122_zpsddd4b33e.jpg.html)

While looking on line for which date the mag was I found this (http://digitalwoodcarving.com/gallery/miscellaneous-carving/derby-commode/).
FWW back cover was #140

[David Weaver]

For some reason, when I look at that jointer, I hear fog horns in my head - it's either the jointer size or the captains style handle on it.

I used to drool over jointers like that, seeing them in person but not running. Then I bought lumber at one of the local retired-white-collar-i'm-going-to-saw-lumber-and-need-a-24"-jointer-to-face-it kinds of folks here, and he faced it for us with a power feeder on a yates or something. I have scarcely heard a planer as loud as that jointer. It was impressive at first, but the howl was unreal.

[maximillian arango]

This my favorite thread currently going on and all of the ideas has helped me finally decide what I am going to do with my tools for now. I see that a lot of you guys have been blessed with more space then I would know what to do with. I have a better shot of finding the Ark of the Covenant then finding more room in my sub 950sqft apartment. Picking up woodworking presents more then its challenges in woodworking alone, the space that I have is a 3' by 3' closet and a 5' by 10' deck that is shared with chairs, car parts, a work bench(for auto work), air compressor, bicycles and a hammock(only place I can sleep without cats attempting to kill me).

I have decided against what I want to do, which is make a "cabinetmakers chest" and make everything super portable. Everyone who talks about this style of chest cites CS but when I think of that style of chest I think of the first one I read about. Tony Konovaloff (http://tonykonovaloff.com/?page_id=12) is the owner/creator of that chest and I think the one on his site should be the standard of these chest that CS has made so popular.

If someone is like me they have no space to work so I am left to do something more unique which is make a portable bench but being that I have to bring it up a flight of stairs so I am going with a torsion box top and fordable legs. As far as a tool box I feel like a "Dutch Tool Box" is the best for portability because it limits you to the amount of tools you can put in it if you keep it at a portable size. On top of that I like that there are lots of variations of these and several of them have it so that the tools don't knock into each other. So getting back to the OP loose tools are fine if you are not moving your tools everywhere lucky for me I am forced to not follow that fad and have every tool on their own. BTW if you look close at Tony's chest (http://tonykonovaloff.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/TOOLBO3.jpg) you can see that they are not given room to bump into each other. To each their own as long as it fits you best and what fits me best is something I can load up into my 98 Impreza Wagon so I can take my work with me anywhere there is room(most likely the park).

~Max

[Winton Applegate]

I hear fog horns in my head

Hey me too !
'course that was before I ever saw the pic. of the jointer.
It's a little disconcerting because I live in the high planes desert of Colorado but . . .
"I may," he added with a grin that would have sent sane men scampering into trees, "have been imagining it".

:p

[Winton Applegate]

only place I can sleep without cats attempting to kill me
If you love cats as much as I love cats then the term "cat-a-pult" often leads to day dreaming~~~~~

Now why did they ever call it that ?
and
I wonder if the cats were to, some how, lets say, find them selves on the other side of that body of water, some how, I wonder, if they, little darlings, could find their way home?

and stuff like that.


left to do something more unique which is make a portable bench

Portable bench (es):


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Squarethatedge_zps5d374a18.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Squarethatedge_zps5d374a18.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Undersidedetails_zpscead14b2.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Undersidedetails_zpscead14b2.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Planingbeam_zpsdeda27b9.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Planingbeam_zpsdeda27b9.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/YeOld2x4benchplaningbeam_zps86006a1f.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/YeOld2x4benchplaningbeam_zps86006a1f.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Thisisbetterthanthat_zps7279432f.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Thisisbetterthanthat_zps7279432f.jpg.html)

and clamping the beams in one or two of these

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Decker-WM425-550-Pound-Workbench/dp/B0000224R9/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1389678910&sr=8-4&keywords=workmate

makes quite a nice super portable and store able yet stable and seriously useful set up.

Just do your woodworking in the living space. That was the way the dudes way back when did it anyway. One space many uses. Woodwork by day / living space at night.

PS: Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer does quite large abstract oil paintings. She has a pro studio now but not too long ago she was painting in a spare bed room on a white carpet no less. She just put down a really heavy duty drop cloth and went to town. She was careful, the carpet is fine.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Cobalt-1_zpsb5308c40.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Cobalt-1_zpsb5308c40.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Dawn_zpse0f96ef5.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Dawn_zpse0f96ef5.jpg.html)

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2289_zpscae1909b.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2289_zpscae1909b.jpg.html)

I can't help it . . . one more

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2273_zpsa290356e.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2273_zpsa290356e.jpg.html)

[maximillian arango]

Not known to most but my cats are used in tandem with water boarding by the NSA to maintain a lack of sleep since they have been trained to attack right when your mind starts to drift off.


Unfortunately my rights of working at home has been revoked since my girlfriend walked in while i was cleaning 2 quarts of oil(cats did it) while I was rebuilding an engine. This leaves me with the option of out side and in the summer working in a parking lot is not going to be fun but we'll see when the time comes.

[george wilson]

My cat sleeps on the bottom corner of my bed. She used to sleep near my head,but I kept petting her so I could head her nice loud purr,and ended up not getting to sleep. One of the other cats (we have 3) starts his meowing to be let out about 2:00 AM,no matter how freezing cold it is. Cats seem to think that after 10 minutes the weather has changed,even if they can still hear the driving rain beating on the windows. Perhaps they just don't care?

[Winton Applegate]

NSA cats
Tha's funny . . . and excessive inhumane treatment of prisoners


(cats did it)

Catapult.


Engine rebuild

Some cats are good with engines.
Especially Siamese.
Here's Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer's cat doing an inspection before install. Ran great.
He's gone on to other realms though. Best cat there ever was.

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0707_zpsb7b85f9d.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0707_zpsb7b85f9d.jpg.html)

Most cats though get me eyeing my scrap pile to see what would work best for the newest and improvest catapult. The trick is to 'pult WITH the wind. Get more distance that way and mutes the MEOW of joy as moggy passes through the sound barrier.

[Winton Applegate]

The word
"Cats "
and the word
"think"
Always mutually exclusive I find.
My mentor said "cats don't understand pain as a concept".
Can't even beat 'em.
If you get out a rolled up paper they may run
yah
run and piss on your favorite dress shirt.
Wait . . .
come to think of it that happened the other way 'round. Pissed on the shirt and that got me looking for a paper to roll up.
Those were the DIFFICULT pre-catapult years.

[steven c newman]

Back to tool chests:

When we moved into the current address last year, there was an OLD chest of drawers left behind in the basement. The three bottom drawers were long gone, but what was left was enough to hold MOSt of my toys, er, tools. Saws found their way to the joists over head, just hanging around on a peg. The Dungeon Shop iis small enough that I can touch everything by taking a single step in that direction. One has to keep things "tidy" in such a small area. Maybe one should "troll" the streets on "Trash Days" on pick up a used dresser? Beef it up a bit, put some dividers in? Investment? Very little....

One could even add a thicker top as a work surface.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Winton - love the Queen's artwork. Wish the photos were a bit bigger.