waterstones Cont..

[Robert Culver]

one last question before I pull the pin on a new set of stones im looking at the shapton pro 1000 and 8000 stones and have had a tough time settling in on the shaptons due to the price tag on them but after reading a bunch of reviews it would seem that they are worth the price and im cant see myself soaking stones due to winter shop temps. So my question is it realistic to think that I can go from a 1000 to a 8000 stone without a lot of work to bring up a polish?

[David Weaver]

For years I used a 1000 and 15000. It's about working only the metal that needs to be worked. I'd consider doing anything more than that a complete waste of time.

The only reason I'm not still doing that is because of a fascination with using a single washita hone to do everything (which involves working even less metal).

You can always add an interim stone later, of course. A great deal of woodworking with relative speed is learning to set up your tools so that the damage to the edges is minor or none - and that the need to resharpen comes from wear rather than damage. Especially with planes (chisels are always going to take some damage if they are used in hardwoods, it's just a matter of how small you can get it to be).

[Chris Griggs]

Its totally fine... especially if you are using a hollow grind or secondary/micro bevels (I use and 800 and an 8k, almost exclusively)

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I would defer to Chris and David, they have a lot of experience here (so if the chime in and say I'm way off base, listen to them and not me) but I've found that it does depend a bit on what you're sharpening, at least for me. for maintaining a blade I've already gotten in good shape, or something like a new, nicely lapped blade from Lee Valley, those bigs jumps are find with modern stones, but I really like having a mid-range stone for rehabbing old blades in poor condition when it comes to preparing the backs. That said, I'm using a Sigma 1000 and a Naniwa Snow White 8K now, and have absolutely no experience with Shaptons. I've been using my cheap Naniwa Superstone as a mid range stone, and still waffling on whether or not I want a nicer mid range stone, knowing that I probably won't reach for it that often once I'm working on well prepared blades.

[Robert Culver]

just bought the shaptons pros from stu's sight I was surprised it was almost a $50 dollar savings from buying them state side im sure it will take a little longer for them to get here but for 50 bucks hey I can wait a little bit. What a awesome deal!

[Chris Fournier]

I move up through successive waterstone grits 1000/4000/6000/8000 and have found this to be much faster than jumping form zero to hero. I have come up to this process by experimenting, for a year or so I went from 4000 to 8000, I was flush one day and bought a 6000 grit stone and my surfaces improved and my honing time was reduced.

I have yet to find an instance in wood, plastic or metal working where jumping grits as aggressively as suggested here has been fruitful. I do not own Shaptons and only speak of what I know in my shop.

[Roderick Gentry]

I have a warm and cold system. I don't want to use water at all in the winter, so I use scary sharp, oil, or diamonds. I have been working wood using water stones on my tools since the 70s. I still reach for the Kings as much as anything else. They will put a hair popping edge on things. I used the Shaptons at Harrelson's place, and was not impressed. I had to sit out a few years as people flew into a dizzy state over them. Seems to have cooled down. While the Shaptons provide grits I don't see as all that useful for most work, they do go there. But other than that, for most people it seems to be a flattening thing, and that is a mater of skill and experience. So if money is really tight, I would still with King or Bester, or norton.

[David Weaver]

I move up through successive waterstone grits 1000/4000/6000/8000 and have found this to be much faster than jumping form zero to hero. I have come up to this process by experimenting, for a year or so I went from 4000 to 8000, I was flush one day and bought a 6000 grit stone and my surfaces improved and my honing time was reduced.

I have yet to find an instance in wood, plastic or metal working where jumping grits as aggressively as suggested here has been fruitful. I do not own Shaptons and only speak of what I know in my shop.

It would seem your process is different from mine, and probably Chris's. Total time sharpening a *dull* plane iron for me previously was about a minute, which included polishing the back on an iron, and doing it well. It's around that on a washita stone, or maybe a little less but the edge isn't as good.

I can't speak to metal or plastic working, but you're missing something if you can't get the same edge faster with two stones as what you get with four.

The only practical measure that I can think of for woodworking sharpness is how thin of a shaving you can get. In the above mentioned method, I can get a shaving 3 ten thousandths of an inch thick out of cherry. I can't imagine how spending more time is fruitful, unless for some reason, you can't get that level of sharpness with two stones instead of four.

The same thing applies for diamonds - you can go from 15 micron to 1 without any loss of edge quality.

This requires use of a grinder, of course. Add less than a minute to grind every three times you hone, there isn't much to grind as long as you set your edges up so that they don't take much damage that isn't wear related.

[Chris Griggs]

I would think that time wise moving through consecutive grits vs jumping grits could probably equal out if each method was done well.

More stones = equals more stones to flatten and well, more stones to hone your blade on, but I'm guessing after the lowest grit one is only taking a couple strokes on each stone. So flattening less often and also spending very little time on each stone could balance out the time added from going through more stones.

Big jumps mean flattening each stone a little more often and spending more time on the final stone. Either way you need to bring up fresh steal and then do the needed work, but no more, to get an edge sharp in an efficient repeatable manner.

Personally, I'll stick with my two stone setup, just becasue I do think its faster for me, but I can see how several consecutive grits could be made to work just as fast. I do sometimes consider the multiple stone approach, for the sole reason that I don't (yet) have a sink in my basement, so there would be something to be said for me just to bring 4 stones upstairs to flatten all at once and than spend very little time on each to extend the amount of time between flattenings. I do bring a tub of water down with me and do lap my stones in the shop too but I still wouldn't mind spreading out lapping just because really, I can only lap once before I need to change the water and bring my diamond stone up for a thorough rinse. Anyway, all that is too say that I see efficiencies in both approaches; even though its unlikely I'll change mine.

Chris, curious what stones you use?

[Robert Culver]

I don't really disagree with what anybody has said in these post But I Do think it all comes down to what David Has said and that's to get a workable edge. Im sure I will find out how hard it is to make a big jump but I do think its posible once a polished back and edge has been established if you think about it. while it may be harder to bring up a polish on a large plane blade that has not seen much work it should be easy to maintain the edges and polish I have now on my blades Thanks to everybody for your input !

[David Weaver]

..it should be easy to maintain the edges and polish I have now on my blades ...

Bingo, that's the stuff right there.

[Chris Fournier]

It would seem your process is different from mine, and probably Chris's. Total time sharpening a *dull* plane iron for me previously was about a minute, which included polishing the back on an iron, and doing it well. It's around that on a washita stone, or maybe a little less but the edge isn't as good.

I can't speak to metal or plastic working, but you're missing something if you can't get the same edge faster with two stones as what you get with four.

The only practical measure that I can think of for woodworking sharpness is how thin of a shaving you can get. In the above mentioned method, I can get a shaving 3 ten thousandths of an inch thick out of cherry. I can't imagine how spending more time is fruitful, unless for some reason, you can't get that level of sharpness with two stones instead of four.

The same thing applies for diamonds - you can go from 15 micron to 1 without any loss of edge quality.

This requires use of a grinder, of course. Add less than a minute to grind every three times you hone, there isn't much to grind as long as you set your edges up so that they don't take much damage that isn't wear related.

David, you are measuring 0.0003" on cherry shavings and you go with a three hones to a grind? You are a far better man than I and I am a metal worker used to measuring metal off of a surface grinder where "tenths" are held but not by the faint of heart. As far as a 3 to 1 recipe I can't understand where this ratio comes from, grinding and honing is context sensitive.

Sharpening is simple. Big scratches are removed with slightly smaller scratches successively until the scratches are small enough to be a polish . I didn't make this up, it's time honored and in my experience true.

[David Weaver]

3 to 1 is just a typical ratio. Usually about where it gets harder to raise a wire edge. Could be 2 or could be 5 if I'm lucky.

There are definitely no scratches at my edges that are bigger than the last stone's abrasive.

[Chris Fournier]

3 to 1 is just a typical ratio. Usually about where it gets harder to raise a wire edge. Could be 2 or could be 5 if I'm lucky.

There are definitely no scratches at my edges that are bigger than the last stone's abrasive.

That is very surprising to me David, perhaps we are heading back to the honing bench at different frequencies which means more or less metal removal. I don't intend for this next question to be inflamatory at all, would you sand a wooden surface with 120 grit and then hit it with 220 grit or finer?

[David Weaver]

I tell you what, Chris. I'll take a picture of one of my edges after I hone it (as in, with a digital scope), it'll solve a lot. I usually plane until my plane irons need to be honed because the feel is off. For the cambered planes, that might mean working over half a dozen or a dozen board feet, depending on how much they need to be used. By "feel is off", I mean that the iron literally feels dull and I have to lean on the plane too much to get it to cut. If the edge hasn't chipped, it should still give an acceptable surface at that point, but leaning on a plane is a good way to make yourself very tired.

As far as sanding, if I had a long board that I had sanded to 220 and then I lifted the board and sanded the last half millimeter of it 1000 grit, I wouldn't expect for there to be any 220 grit scratches in it.

If the progression in sharpening (after a wire edge is raised with a medium stone) needs to include several interim stones, then in my mind, the progression of scratches is being worked on too much metal that will never actually see or cut wood. The modern fine stones are aggressive enough that they will easily remove a small bevel of scratches from a 1000 grit stone in a matter of 10 seconds. But they won't do it if you're removing those scratches from a long bevel.

[Chris Fournier]

I tell you what, Chris. I'll take a picture of one of my edges after I hone it (as in, with a digital scope), it'll solve a lot. I usually plane until my plane irons need to be honed because the feel is off. For the cambered planes, that might mean working over half a dozen or a dozen board feet, depending on how much they need to be used. By "feel is off", I mean that the iron literally feels dull and I have to lean on the plane too much to get it to cut. If the edge hasn't chipped, it should still give an acceptable surface at that point, but leaning on a plane is a good way to make yourself very tired.

As far as sanding, if I had a long board that I had sanded to 220 and then I lifted the board and sanded the last half millimeter of it 1000 grit, I wouldn't expect for there to be any 220 grit scratches in it.

If the progression in sharpening (after a wire edge is raised with a medium stone) needs to include several interim stones, then in my mind, the progression of scratches is being worked on too much metal that will never actually see or cut wood. The modern fine stones are aggressive enough that they will easily remove a small bevel of scratches from a 1000 grit stone in a matter of 10 seconds. But they won't do it if you're removing those scratches from a long bevel.

A photo would help me understand the parameters for sure.

[David Weaver]

I honed this iron tonight in a little less than a minute, including polishing the opposite side. This is the second honing on this grind (as in, it had some wear and I raised a wire edge and then polished the edge after doing that).

It's a stock millers falls iron. I usually use oilstones, or an oilstone now, but either way, oilstones make it harder to see what's going on because the finish is matte. On these stock irons, they work just as well and fast as these two stones do, though.

This is a shapton 1000 pro (15 microns) and a sigma power 13k (0.73 or something microns) - they are my coarsest medium stone and my finest fine stone, just to make a point.

In the first picture to the right is the grind, next to it are deeper 1000 scratches and at the edge are light scratches that are from the 13k. To the naked eye, the very edge just disappears. You can see that the shapton 1k scratches want to almost get to the edge, but none of them do - one bold one tried to get close, but it didn't make it.

The second picture is for scale, it's a stock thickness iron, probably 3/32nds. where it's bright in the bottom corner is after the bevel ends, so the scale is easy to see. The bevel will get a little bigger than that on the third hone.

If I would've worked a larger area of the metal through a bunch of stones, it'd be no sharper and no longer lasting. But it would've taken more than a minute and ruined the ability to get that small final bevel without taking away a lot of clearance. (of course, no guides were used, I don't know if I could use a guide in a minute - at all).

Keeping that 1k bevel small as a part of the total grind makes it easy to do this. Letting it get big would just result in a bevel getting steeper. Finding the shallowest angle where the iron doesn't chip lets you keep it small and raise a wire edge just enough to remove the wear.
To me, this is ideal sharpening. It's easy to do on this, on a chisel, on a curved jack plane iron, whatever.279429279430

[Robert Culver]

and that's the advantage of a micro bevel correct me if im wrong but the edge cuts the wood and the angle of the bevel serves no more purpose other than to act as a wedge to peel material away?

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure I follow completely, I think I do, though - the cut happens in a very small area. There does need to be something there of a polished edge, but it can be a small one like that. Wear will prevent any saw tooth type edge issues due to wearing back into the scratches there.

Geometry is important for finish and clearance, though.

[Robert Culver]

I think of it as a axe the tip of the axe is sharp and the rest of it acts as a wedge to split the wood. you don't have to polish the whole axe to make it effective. Can somebody explain to me the advantage of being able to take a shaving of 3 thousands. Maybe in highly figured wood im missing something here.

[Winton Applegate]

Chris,
Well you know me . . . I can not pass up a chance to bang the table about sharpening especially for water stones and A2.


Sharpening is simple. Big scratches are removed with slightly smaller scratches successively until the scratches are small enough to be a polish . I didn't make this up, it's time honored and in my experience true.

I tend to agree with you in general
For sure for polishing LARGER areas like the back or a bevel that is getting wide.
I don't power grind and I let my secondary bevels get a bit wide, three millimeters or so
so
I do as you say . . . several grits starting down around 300 and even 120 for changing bevel or some such.

Now
If I were to power grind right down to the last of the edge, hollow now,
then make the intsiest secondary or what ever we are calling it using the 1000
THEN
since there is so little metal to abrade one could pull off the next stone being the 8000 or there abouts.
I can see that.
I think that is the gist of Davids quick method.

For me the ILLOGICAL AND TOTALLY UN-defendable test I use is not a thin shaving as such
but
I , using a jeweler's visor on high mag, used to test my edges by shaving a curl off a single hair on my arm.
I don't test for that any more because I KNOW the blade WILL be that sharp when I am done using my SLOW jig and many stones method.
Why do that ?
It's fun.
Beyond that I can not defend it.

Now
My USEFUL and DEFENDABLE test is not a thin shaving but will the blade cut purple heart and bubinga that is rowed and reversing . . . an impossible thing to cut without chip out with any poorly sharpened blade?
Will it cut it for a considerable length of time before chattering sets in?

Blade edge geometry and FLAT facets that are actually doing the cutting (blade back and the bevel right at the edge no mater how small) will get that done.
How polished is necessary ? I found 8000 (old Norton) was plenty. Probably 6000 would have been as well but I have never had a 6000 stone.
I have and use a Shapton 15000.
Does it make better furniture ?
No.
But I like to fool around with it anyway.

Signed,
Winton
your brother in the old too many stones slow method.

[David Weaver]

I think of it as a axe the tip of the axe is sharp and the rest of it acts as a wedge to split the wood. you don't have to polish the whole axe to make it effective. Can somebody explain to me the advantage of being able to take a shaving of 3 thousands. Maybe in highly figured wood im missing something here.

3 ten thousandths is a gauge of sharpness, but that's about it. If you have questions about whether or not your edges are sharp, finding the thinnest shaving you can take will pretty much settle it, and then you can go back to a more practical setting.

[David Weaver]

Now
If I were to power grind right down to the last of the edge, hollow now,
then make the intsiest secondary or what ever we are calling it using the 1000
THEN
since there is so little metal to abrade one could pull off the next stone being the 8000 or there abouts.
I can see that.
I think that is the gist of Davids quick method.

Something like that. The 1000 is slightly steeper than the grind (grind's about 25º), the polish stone is slightly steeper - how much? I don't know, probably the two together add 5 degrees.

When the 1000 gets twice as big as it is in the picture, then it's time to grind it almost all of the way back to the edge. There's so much misinformation on the internet about burning edges, etc, that lead people to believe that it's a skill they shouldn't pick up (grinding to the edge), but all of this basically gives you time back in the shop without any compromise. I couldn't explain it to someone who had never sharpened a tool before, because they would burn a few edges at first, overgrind, over do the 1000 hone at the wrong angle, etc, but the rest of us who have been at it a little while could do it in our sleep after a week or two. It's cheap on the steel (it doesn't consume much more than the actual wear on the iron), cheap on time, and cheap on how much stone material is used. AND, the whole perfectly flat thing with the stones isn't nearly so critical. Much more common to abrade the surface of a stone just to clean it off.

Now, if someone *loves* to go through a progression of stones and spend more time and feels that's satisfying, I can't really argue that. I just have no interest in people who shop these threads for information to shop the internet for what they buy thinking that I'm presenting some compromise of some sort. I'm not. Or that there is some compromise in the sharpness of the tool in question. There definitely is not.

Now pardon me while I go look for milk containers to cut up to use some of the vacant plastic bins my wife has...

[Chris Griggs]

If one is just going from 1kish to 8kish you don't even need to do the little lift. Its necessary for even larger jumps like from Dave shows, but one of the reasons I finish with a fast cutting 8k stone is because I think it makes it even simpler. Grind, hone on grind with 1k, then hone on grind again with 8k (with optional lift). If the hollow grind is small enough to raise a burr efficiently when honing right on it than it is small enough that the jump works even without the additonal bevels. I do what Dave explains sometimes to. Especially if I'm I'm getting lazy about going back to the grinder, since doing those lifts extends the number of honings between grindings once honing directly on the hollow has gotten slow (YMMV)

Every once in a while I do pull my iron off the stones to find that too my dismay it is not sharp. I can say with certainty that it is never because my finish stone hasn't removed the scratches from my 1kish stone, and when this happens it is always because I there was atypical edge failure and I either didn't spend enough time on the 1k or I didn't go back to the grinder when I should have. I find it the coarser levels of honing that make or fail to make a quality edge...polishing up from a quality but coarse edge is always a doodle. (YMMV)


There's so much misinformation on the internet about burning edges, etc, that lead people to believe that it's a skill they shouldn't pick up (grinding to the edge)

This has got to be my biggest (and perhaps only major) peeve in mainstream woodworking info. Dry grinding is not difficult, and should not be something newbs should be made afraid to do. I'm not accusing anyone here of that, just saying that it is something I frequently read and it drives me nuts.

(YMMV)

[Chris Fournier]

Thanks for your thoughts Winton. If folks are getting the cutting edges that they want using soap and chalk then really what should I care? I do however have to wonder when techniques are used that go against time honoured and effective techniques, the materials invloved have not changed that much over time. I'd recommend Leonard Lee's book on sharpening to everyone, it covers a lot of different edges, processes and tools and includes many good images of honed steel under the electron microscope. You will even find a discussion about grit sequences with images. I will leave the grit progression discussion at that.

Now honing success reall starts with grinding success, if you get a good grind, honing moves along very quickly. I use a 7" bench grinder and grind right to the cutting edge, once I have this time on the stones is minimal. As Chris, I mean Griggsy has pointed out dry grinding is a subject of fear and smells of burnt steel. Too bad, it really is fast, effective and low cost.

Forums are full of people who bought a piece of equipment or hand tool and they couldn't get it to work out of the box in 5 minutes and here comes their next post - "Tormex. Worth it?" Read the books, search the forums, watch it on YouTube, pick your poison. In the end you are not gifted with a skill, you go to your bench and learn to do what you saw and think you understood! It's and ends/means thing - if you want to be a woodworker who makes things out of wood you will need to develop woodworking skills.

[David Weaver]

I gather from your post that you think there is still some practical advantage to using 4 or some such count of stones instead of two. Proving otherwise is only as far away as your bench.

To the beginners on a budget, though, don't waste your money on the extra stone unless you find you have to because you can't get the feel for using two stones. There is no practical gain.

[Chris Griggs]

I'd recommend Leonard Lee's book on sharpening to everyone


Me too. Great reference!



Now honing success reall starts with grinding success, if you get a good grind, honing moves along very quickly. I use a 7" bench grinder and grind right to the cutting edge, once I have this time on the stones is minimal. As Chris, I mean Griggsy has pointed out dry grinding is a subject of fear and smells of burnt steel. Too bad, it really is fast, effective and low cost.

Could not agree more! And I must say, nice use of the name Griggsy. Too damn many Chris'!



if you want to be a woodworker who makes things out of wood you will need to develop woodworking skills.

What!!!? You've lost your mind;)



To the beginners on a budget, though, don't waste your money on the extra stone unless you find you have to because you can't get the feel for using two stones.

I definitely agree with this.

[george wilson]

Once again I'm seeing 2 of my friends arguing. And about what? The same old stuff: sharpening. This subject is such a pitfall it is amazing. I have fallen into it,but am not going to any more.

David is not a crazy person,and he is perfectly able to assess the effectiveness of the cutting edges he is getting with his 2 stone system. I am sure that Chris F. is also able to evaluate his edges.

The simple fact is,there is more than 1 way to do things. I use 2 stones myself,though different stones from what you all are using. I have my black and my white Spyderco stones,and have used them exclusively for probably 20 years. I do strop,but just a little(is that considered a 3rd stone?) If I have a damaged edge,I will start with a diamond stone,but consider that to be grinding,not sharpening.

I use the Tormek that David generously sent me,or my Wilton Square Wheel belt grinder if I have a LOT to take off,or am re habilitating a messed up new purchase. I like the nice smooth bevels the Tormek gives,and the cool operating with no quenching.

I am old and tired and will use any advantage I can find at this stage to eliminate grunt work. Several of my joints are worn out from many years of totally hand work. The only thing that really matters is the end result. Regardless of what tools you use,they will have no part what so ever in your ultimate ability to draw well,make good,pleasing curves,design good inlay or marquetry,use good proportions right out of your head,without slavishly studying golden mean rectangles for days on end(that should have been done when you were younger), not sluff over corners or surfaces where they meet: intersections should be CRISP. Or all the rest of the hoo-haw that is eternally bounced around on these fora.

Having gotten your tools sharp(which is the first thing I always taught my new hires),you need to learn how to use them. Saw with straight strokes,not a lot of up and down waggling. Plane without stalling out in the middle of a cut.(That is not conducive to leaving a nice,smooth planed surface). Learn to follow a line accurately so you can make good joints,and do not have to spend a lot of extra time planing or paring down to the line afterwards. You should just need to take off a minimum after sawing.

There are many other skills to learn. Sharpening is just the first. Why are experienced wood workers arguing about the FIRST skill you need to know and be proficient at. Sharpening is nothing and it is everything. Something you spend a few minutes at before you move onto the ACTUAL work!!

The issue of jumping grits depends entirely upon HOW LARGE the surface you are trying to smooth out is. If it is small, just a narrow sliver at the cutting edge of the blade, it would not take long at all to eliminate the coarser scratches.

In closing,anyone who can get a straight razor sharp enough to make a good shave can get a woodworking tool sharp enough to make polished cuts.

[Brett Bobo]

To the beginners on a budget, though, don't waste your money on the extra stone unless you find you have to because you can't get the feel for using two stones. There is no practical gain.

Hi David,
Sorry if this was inherently understood but what factor, if any, is the grinder in using a two stone setup? In other words, can a two stone setup be used as well in the absence of a grinder and if so, how important is the use of a secondary bevel with this approach?

[David Weaver]

Yeah, doesn't matter what you use to do your rough grinding - if you can make a reasonably accurate bevel with a carborundum stone, or a decent quality belt sander, etc, you can do the same thing. the only thing important (to me at least) is that the primary bevel is about 25 degrees, the bevel with the coarser of the two stones is a couple of degrees steeper, and then a couple of degrees steeper yet with the final stone. It's pretty easy to get the process down if you just tell yourself to reference the bevel on the stone and lift just a little for the first stone and just a little more for the last stone.

The wheel grinder is nice because you can really grind precisely with it and just leave an absolute tiny amount of the edge there when you grind. I cast my tormek off to george for several reasons, but one is that I never actually grind to the edge, just very short of it. On a dry grinder, I don't think I'd want those coarse scratches all the way to the edge, anyway.

I'm pretty sure warren uses some variation of this but with a coarser stone, I've seen him describe his process before but don't know how similar it is. It strikes me that it's either two stones, or a coarse stone to grind and two more. Maybe he can mention it.

There are some stones that work well by themselves with a bare leather strop if you're willing to keep the grinder and limit what steels you use. Pike (norton, lilywhite, norton, woodworker's delight, ...) washitas are nice to use as a grinder with one stone as long as you can resist agigtating their surface. If allowed to break in, they will get plain steel almost as sharp as two modern stones will, but two is probably more practical and just as quick. The various <1 micron stones floating around (shapton 15k pro, sigmapower 13k, etc) don't make enough of a wire edge to require a strop, esp. on simple steels, so the two of these stones together last night were probably just as fast as using a single stone and a strop.

the secondary bevel, to me, is essential because it's the only thing bringing the edge up to a final bevel great enough to resist chipping. If you ground at 30 degrees and just honed the plane on the hollow, you could get away with not going steeper with the stones, but this has been faster and more consistent for me, and it always leaves the tiniest amount of work to do with the finishing stone (which in turns means you can go very fine and have a nice uniform edge but still very fast).

[Patrick Harper]

David,

I'm just curious. Do you use a guide to hone your secondary/tertiary bevels? From your descriptions earlier, it doesn't sound like you do. I don't know if I'd be capable of holding a blade steady enough.

[David Weaver]

No guide, generally. Once in a great while I'll use one if I have some reason to have perfect camber on the corners of an iron, but not very often.

If you work the iron on the diagonal (note the direction of the scratches), it's pretty easy to maintain the angles you want without any guides. They just become "what feels right".

[Winton Applegate]

how much stone material is used. [not much] AND, the whole perfectly flat thing [not as important and easier to maintain]

The opposite is true of the traditional Japanese sharpening gambit where there is only the one main bevel. Even though some of that is softer steel.
They polish the entire bevel.
Drives me crazy. It can't help but take off a lot of stone and by the time the bevel is polished the stone is worn significantly and the craftsman doing the sharpening has cramped up tired hands from pushing hard trying to get something to happen.

[Winton Applegate]

George,


will use any advantage I can find at this stage to eliminate grunt work. . . . . The only thing that really matters is the end result.


Hang in there, the direct brain to CAM (computer aided manufacturing) is just around the bend. Video games are pretty much there now (though I don't play ANY video games and don't get me crumudgening on that topic).


Think CNC but hooked to your skull with a wireless hair net that you wear.
Cases of sharp cutters that the machine self installs when performance parameters are detected to be out of spec.
Don't sneeze ! Your life may depend on it.

I think the reason your two favorite sharpeners are going over the same old ground, yet again, is SOME ONE ASKED THEM TO. The OP person trying to learn about the options before he "pulls the pin" on his order as it were.


Me well . . .
as a girl friend once told me as we sat on the lawn at an out door concert, apparently telling me why she was sitting with me at all,
she said :
"Me ? I'm just in it for the chocolate".

[Winton Applegate]

if you want to be a woodworker who makes things out of wood you will need to develop woodworking skills.
True.
What I thought you were going to say and in any case I want to state it here.
if you want to be a woodworker who makes things out of wood you will need to develop
METALworking
skills.


Flattening blade backs and plane soles etc precisely.
Understanding cutting tool geometry dictated by the characteristics of the material being cut
the importance of clearance angles
sharpening which is accurate faceting
polishing of the facets while maintaining that accuracy.

[george wilson]

True,Winton !!:)

[Warren Mickley]

The opposite is true of the traditional Japanese sharpening gambit where there is only the one main bevel. Even though some of that is softer steel.
They polish the entire bevel.
Drives me crazy. It can't help but take off a lot of stone and by the time the bevel is polished the stone is worn significantly and the craftsman doing the sharpening has cramped up tired hands from pushing hard trying to get something to happen.

I have sharpened freehand full bevel on bench stones since I was trained to sharpen in 1962. I don't have cramping. I can imagine cramping from the dinky little honing guides, where you are holding the thing with a few fingers, but not from a chisel, plane iron or gouge, where you can use your whole hand. I think if you spend an inordinate amount of time on sharpening, you probably waited too long.

[Jack Curtis]

I have sharpened freehand full bevel on bench stones since I was trained to sharpen in 1962. I don't have cramping. I can imagine cramping from the dinky little honing guides, where you are holding the thing with a few fingers, but not from a chisel, plane iron or gouge, where you can use your whole hand. I think if you spend an inordinate amount of time on sharpening, you probably waited too long.

Yeah, same here, every now and then I pinch a fingertip; but that's all.

[Chris Fournier]

True.
What I thought you were going to say and in any case I want to state it here.
if you want to be a woodworker who makes things out of wood you will need to develop
METALworking
skills.


Flattening blade backs and plane soles etc precisely.
Understanding cutting tool geometry dictated by the characteristics of the material being cut
the importance of clearance angles
sharpening which is accurate faceting
polishing of the facets while maintaining that accuracy.



Simple as that really isn't it? Then once you understand the above you can get into serious metalworking and you can make serious woodworking tools! The circle of equipment is complete, your bank account is empty, your shop is bursting and you have no time to woodwork but you really could make anything if you wanted to!

[Winton Applegate]

have sharpened freehand full bevel on bench stones since I was trained to sharpen in 1962. I don't have cramping. I can imagine cramping from the dinky little honing guides,

Some of us are just wimpier than you are. I don't do much bull dogging either, alligator wrestling . . .

No crampy during freehand / no jig sharpening ?
Ohhhhh
K
I may have miss spoke. What I mean by cramping is actually having my fingers lock from having them bent backward too long or curled and pressing down at the tip until they don't work right.

Here is a veritable parade of white knuckle and locked finger comfort for the community to reviewing so you can get a FEEL for what I am, well actually, WAS experiencing.
I never said I was a tough guy. A stack of blades, six or ten, just turns my fingers in to some dowel like objects that feel like they have no places to bend.

What a baby I am.
I will say there was No reason for me to let the blade(s) get overly dull or go too long before sharpening because I nearly always have A STACK of blades just sitting there to pop in.

You be the judge though do these fingers look like they are having fun ? An easy time of it? Just a stroll in the park ?
I mean, if you have ever sharpened a bunch of stuff at one time you can just feel your fingers locking up just looking at these photos.
Not to mention abrading the skin on the ends of my fingers off after a while.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2462_zps870bf317.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2462_zps870bf317.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2466_zps553df0a1.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2466_zps553df0a1.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2455_zps6c6dd615.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2455_zps6c6dd615.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2459_zps5e30d211.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2459_zps5e30d211.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2460_zps416c2daf.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2460_zps416c2daf.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2461_zpsb91982a2.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2461_zpsb91982a2.jpg.html)


Or
Do these fingers look like they are more relaxed and could work all day at this ?


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2468_zpsab956ec4.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2468_zpsab956ec4.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2456_zps6166424d.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2456_zps6166424d.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2465_zps5a700a85.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2465_zps5a700a85.jpg.html)


Not to criticize hollow grinding (that works great) and TO criticize the roundy bevel thing that has been mentioned in recent months . . .
check out Toshio Odates's and Japanese theory and practice in general on the bevel. No secondary, no hollow etc. allowed. Ha, ha.
Not criticizing you Toshio. I love ya man. I have great respect and gratitude for his books and work.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2463_zpse6c4f2d2.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2463_zpse6c4f2d2.jpg.html)


Here is a man putting his back into sharpening.
Ha, Ha,
I can relate though . . . looks like me back in the day trying to get a LN plane blade flat. On a brand new extra coarse diamond plate no less. I tried not overly much pressure, letting the stone do the work like the maker of the diamond plate recommended to keep from damaging the grit on the plate.
Yah after a few weeks of that I had every thing I could deliver pressing that blade back against the stone and it still took FOR EVER !
Glad LN started to make 'em flat now.


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2464_zps7a70edaf.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2464_zps7a70edaf.jpg.html)


It came home to me making up this post.
I am too lazy to sharpen hard A2 plane blades hand held without a jig.
I just don't like to work that hard when I don't have to.

The moment to put the blade in a jig to save my hands is worth it to me.

I have always equated sharpening by hand to turning metal parts by holding them in my hand and filing them with a hand file.
Why would I do that when I can chuck 'er into a rigid precise thing that is going to make it perfect every time without hardly any effort on my part ?

[Kees Heiden]

When you get cramp in your fingers from sharpening, you're doing too much work. The usual thing to do is planing until the iron gets dull and then you sharpen it. If you stack up towers of dull blades, I'm not surprised when you get cramps in your fingers! Sometimes I also grab another plane and continue planing, but I always regret it later when I have a lot of dull planes. It's not like I actually like sharpening.

In a bevel down plane, the wear bevel on the clearance side is being taken care of when you hone the bevel. It's not much work like that because it is a very small surface. The wear bevel on the flat side of the blade is very shallow and easilly removed on a polishing stone. You can actually see this wearbevel, after a lot of planing it appears as a white line just behind the edge. It's removed in seconds.

I have no experience with bevel up planes (other then my little used block plane) so can't really comment on them.

[Winton Applegate]

you're doing too much work.
Yah, see !
That's what I keep saying; to Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer, to my boss . . .
they have no sympathy. None.
More couch time, that's my solution.
Glad I have your support in that !

Sounds to me like you are wining at your woodworking.
Cool.
It also sounds like for walnut , to throw out an example and other NORMAL woods bevel down and free hand sharpening is just great.
Sharpening on the fly with those woods is no big deal because it doesn't happen toooo often.
We mentioned the wood that eats blades and the stuff I always harp on which I can not bear to type again and you guys can't bear to read again, no doubt,
As far as the stack and sharpening one blade when it gets dull.
On my big table (well big for me in my little hand tool world) and my purp . . work bench. woh almost typed one of those words again.

Sharpening one blade would mean I would, some times, too often, usually, OK always, have to resharpen before I planed the whole surface or even less than half the surface.

Often I would have it in my mind how and where to work the surface and rather than keep using a crayon on the wood to keep it obvious I could just put in another blade and plane it.

If I had to sharpen and give my full attention to that I would more than likely loose my train of thought for the work.

Now more than WAY BACK THEN.
Keeping things in mind and straight can be a challenge.
I blame the sudden and dramatic decline on staying up way too late on SawMill trying to convert the world to bevel up only and MY one and only TRUE WAY.
:D
You should be laughing at that. I am.
I have come to this rhythm of taking a break to go upstairs and sharpen from those "big" surface projects.
Works really well for me. I got to remember it isn't for every one.

Anyway thanks for your perspective and relating your experience.