Lee Valley and BA

[Adam Cruea]

Just in case anyone missed it. . .

Looks like Rob Lee and Mark Harrell joined forces.

http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?cat=1,42884&p=71464

Awesome, awesome, awesome. I think it's pretty cool, though I'll still order directly from Mark since you can customize your sawdust maker through him.

[Hilton Ralphs]

and for those who get too excited and spend the rent money, there's always this.



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[george wilson]

Did someone axe about that?:)

I don't know what to think of the Bad Axe tooth patterns pictured in the catalog. They seem to suffer from "long tooth short tooth" syndrome,unless it is just the way the pictures were taken. Could well be the way light is reflecting off the teeth.

[Chris Griggs]

Did someone axe about that?:)

I don't know what to think of the Bad Axe tooth patterns pictured in the catalog. They seem to suffer from "long tooth short tooth" syndrome,unless it is just the way the pictures were taken. Could well be the way light is reflecting off the teeth.

I believe Mark files all of his saws with a good bit of slope, which would can create the illusion of big tooth little tooth.

[george wilson]

Yes,I was pretty sure it was the lighting. But,I think it best to file the teeth straight across. I can't see an advantage to sloped filing,unless it is to make the file grate less against the teeth. But,proper saw vises prevent that anyway. Those saws look exceedingly neatly made,especially their handles. I could only wish they were done in an earlier style. But,a lamb's tongue might add too much labor to a closed handle.

[Hilton Ralphs]

But,proper saw vises prevent that anyway.

George, are you saying that a saw vise (even home made) should not have cantered sides? In other words, the top should be flat(ish)?

Thanks.

[george wilson]

I'm saying it is best to file saw teeth straight across. In my opinion. For 1 thing,when you go to resharpen a saw that has straight across filed teeth,you know how to hold your file instead of guessing at,and trying to maintain an angle. You can guess a straight across angle and maintain it better than you can maintain an upward angle. Of course,there is the horizontal angle to be maintained too for crosscut teeth. Might be easier to maintain only 1 angle? I think so.

At any rate,just for appearance,I like all my teeth to look the same height. Maybe that's OCD on my part. Or,maybe that is good workmanship (I don't think good workmanship can really be separated from some OCD,plus inborn talent). I might dare to say that OCD is possibly what drives a lot of people into a discipline like wood working as a HOBBY. I have even seen certain craftsmen in the museum who are living their lives "Out of joint",I call it. Some of them entered a trade because they thought it would be "cool",but they just never had the inborn talent or OCD to do good work. Never the less,they are getting paid to do it,and are technically "professionals". They get stuck in the work for economic reasons,and stay there for life. It is not good. Lots of people just wander into a job because it was there,get comfortable,get married and have kids,and are stuck there forever. IT IS NOT GOOD!!!

If you read the first sentence of the above paragraph,you can see how I sort of wandered off. But these things are connected.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks George, I'm with you on the CDO part.

[David Weaver]

Did someone axe about that?:)

I don't know what to think of the Bad Axe tooth patterns pictured in the catalog. They seem to suffer from "long tooth short tooth" syndrome,unless it is just the way the pictures were taken. Could well be the way light is reflecting off the teeth.

I think they're probably all the same height, but the whole fancy tooth thing lately with the boutique makers and boutique sharpeners does beg why any of that needs to be done. All it does is make it hard for the novice resharpener to resharpen their own saw without having to work those teeth off. It's sort of a wood show aspect - what can you do to make your saw look and feel different than the guy in the next booth.

As far as actual woodworking, things like blown out grain in dovetails, etc, has anyone ever had a piece ruined because their dovetail or tenon saw blue out the back side of a cut? I haven't. There's something nice about simple effective profiles on teeth - and that's that they can be kept sharp very easily without having to put a saw in a box and wait to get it back.

[george wilson]

The tooth in the next booth looks uncouth. So say I sooth.

[Mike Tekin]

Lee Valley had one bad axe saw at the recent show- well made saw, good balance and easy to start, cuts well- the gullets were sloped thus its the angle of the picture that makes the tooth appear uneven. The folded back is a nice touch too.

Me personally, its a handsaw and cant justify the money - it did not perform 100-150 percent better than LV or LN saws. I also expected more of a fancier handle for all that money, but that's just me.

Also, these saws would be expenisve for me to maintain- as others have said, I wouldnt be able to re sharpen and would have to pay more for that.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

My wife and I were talking about these saws the other day. It was funny how our opinion changed once we realized the company is named after an area (http://badaxetoolworks.com/about-bad-axe-tool-works.html) and not a terrible pun. (Which I should have realized years ago)

[george wilson]

Well,they need to FIX THAT AXE!!. And in Richmond,they need to lengthen "Short Pump". But,they never got around to it.

Mike,all these high class boutique saws,including mine,are made of 1095 spring steel. It is better,harder,and longer lasting than any vintage Western saw ever made. All you have to do to know this is to sharpen saws. The old ones are a LOT softer than the 1095 saws. 1095 saws are hard on files,even the DECENT ones we used to be fortunate to get at the local hardware store.(Often I'm glad to be as old as I am!) But,the payback is,they stay sharp a lot longer. There is no free lunch with steels.

I doubt your new saw would need frequent sharpening at all,unless you're cutting something really hard and tough.

The other,less expensive LV saws are made of the same 1095 steel,and will cut just as well.

[Chris Griggs]

I'll still order directly from Mark since you can customize your sawdust maker through him.

If nothing else I gotta respect how well Mark has brought the "build-a-bear" concept into the boutique tool market (I say this sincerely). Everyone else was either custom or not custom. Honestly, its not likely I'll ever cough up the cash for one of his saws, but I respect the man's great business sense. I think its pretty cool what he did with his business. I don't doubt the awesomeness of his saws either, I'm a) just to cheap and b) would rather make my own (which is also, to some extent, related to my cheapness)

[David Weaver]

Lee Valley had one bad axe saw at the recent show- well made saw, good balance and easy to start, cuts well- the gullets were sloped thus its the angle of the picture that makes the tooth appear uneven. The folded back is a nice touch too.

Me personally, its a handsaw and cant justify the money - it did not perform 100-150 percent better than LV or LN saws. I also expected more of a fancier handle for all that money, but that's just me.

Also, these saws would be expenisve for me to maintain- as others have said, I wouldnt be able to re sharpen and would have to pay more for that.

I'm not vouching for mark or against him, I've never used one of his saws. It's awfully hard to make good handles really quickly, though, and most of the makers who start with elaborate handles end up making something more plain because they find out that 5 hours a handle isn't something they'd like to do when the rubber hits the road. Mark was smart to pick the disston pattern, as henry was probably the first or one of the first who really pushed for most of the shaping to be machine done, and "knocking the burrs" off of the shaped handles done by someone with some feel.

I'm sure Mark makes a saw faster than I could ever hope to, but it's one of those things where you feel less gouged if you make your own. It also makes you feel like you might rather have a mostly machine made saw (LN, LV) if you don't want to make one and you don't want to spend too much.

[george wilson]

Having made a bunch of saws,I attest to the fact that it is not much money for a saw. Plus,he isn't getting that price if he's wholesaling to LV. We give a big hunk of our jewelry prices to our dealers. The price you pay if you want lots of exposure.

[Adam Cruea]

If nothing else I gotta respect how well Mark has brought the "build-a-bear" concept into the boutique tool market (I say this sincerely). Everyone else was either custom or not custom. Honestly, its not likely I'll ever cough up the cash for one of his saws, but I respect the man's great business sense. I think its pretty cool what he did with his business. I don't doubt the awesomeness of his saws either, I'm a) just to cheap and b) would rather make my own (which is also, to some extent, related to my cheapness)

I'd love to learn to make my own, but at the same time, I like the "build-a-bear" concept too, and since I've got the extra cash, don't mind giving it to a small business that delivers.

George> Yes, his sharpening is weird. I can tell you, though, that cutting hickory with a BA saw vs. a LV saw, the BA cuts much faster and much straighter out-of-the-box. The LV saws are nothing to scoff at, the BA are just set better from the box. And you can make the BA saws purdy. :D

Either way, I thought it was kind of cool. I'd love to try one of Wentzloff's panel saws, too.

[Chris Griggs]

I'd love to learn to make my own, but at the same time, I like the "build-a-bear" concept too, and since I've got the extra cash, don't mind giving it to a small business that delivers.

Either way, I thought it was kind of cool. I'd love to try one of Wentzloff's panel saws, too.

Yeah dude, can't argue with that. By all account he makes a nice product, runs a quality small business, and the customization he offers is totally cool.

I actually really want a a Wenzloff half back. That's the one saw I still want that is made by a saw maker and not vintage or made by me. I'll pick one up one day.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I actually have two Wenzloff half-backs, because, as you, I just wanted them (I also had Mike build me his interpretation of my favorite saw, a Disston #16 - to go with the dozen or so vintage #16s I have).

The half backs look nice, but they are not practical saws and mine get very little use (though I am not interested in selling either!).

I weigh cutting ability of saws against some vintage saws I have that were sharpened by Tom Law. I have yet to see any modern maker equal his skills.

[Jeff Ranck]

And you can make the BA saws purdy. :D


And Mark is a really nice guy. Spent some time talking to him and I did buy one of his saws. Loved our conversation. When I can, I love to support good folks who make a quality product.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

George> Yes, his sharpening is weird. I can tell you, though, that cutting hickory with a BA saw vs. a LV saw, the BA cuts much faster and much straighter out-of-the-box. The LV saws are nothing to scoff at, the BA are just set better from the box. And you can make the BA saws purdy. :D


From what I remember, the rake on the LV saws was pretty relaxed; 10 degrees on the carcase saws, and 14 on the dovetail saws. I'd expect most saws to cut much faster out of the box; but I think that's a good compromise assuming a lot of folks new to handsaws are going to be picking them up; if you have someone new to a handsaw pick up something with an aggressive rake, things can get a little jumpy at the start and be tough for someone who's never gone at it before. I know that I can file my saws a lot more aggressive and still get good performance now versus what was pretty touchy for me to start.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

My first thought when I saw the Bad Axe saws was, "Are they going to ditch Wenzloff?" I immediately searched and they still sell the Wenzloffs. It makes sense, as Wenzloff offers panel saws that BA doesn't. I know Wenzloff has had issues recently and was wondering if LV was making sure they had a backup provider. It took forever to get my Wenzloff saw blades- just blades, no handles- direct from Wenzloff. Seems he now has his backstock caught up.

The Bad Axe saws seem very nice. I like the black option. Why do the "boutique" sawmakers not make more larger saws? I want a set of Kenyon "Benjamin Seaton" saws. Now is not the time for me to spend $700 on saws, but I sure do love those saws.

[Hilton Ralphs]

It's awfully hard to make good handles really quickly, though, and most of the makers who start with elaborate handles end up making something more plain because they find out that 5 hours a handle isn't something they'd like to do when the rubber hits the road.

Presactly!

Bob Rozaieski recently doubled his price for making saw handles and Ron Bontz no longer offers the Regan style handle. Rob Lee even mentioned the complexities of having different sizes of handles for the Veritas saws so I guess if one wants something fancy, either pay the higher price or make it yourself.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Why do the "boutique" sawmakers not make more larger saws? I want a set of Kenyon "Benjamin Seaton" saws. Now is not the time for me to spend $700 on saws, but I sure do love those saws.

I think the big reason is that a proper, non-backed saw, (particularly if you want a thinner plate compared to the impulse hardened handsaws from Stanley at the home centers) from should be both tensioned, and taper-ground. Both of which require a fair amount of tooling up to accomplish compared to a backsaw. I'm still curious how Wenzloff tackles the taper grind. Tensioning can be done by hand with a hammer, I suppose, but is a fair amount of work.

[Chuck Nickerson]

[QUOTE=Joshua Pierce;2205094Tensioning can be done by hand with a hammer, I suppose, but is a fair amount of work.[/QUOTE]

This issue is something I've given thought but no yet much work. After watching Ron Herman demonstrate hand tensioning in a DVD, I thought some design work and a sheet of 1/ BB ply ought to yield a hand-crank machine to tension a saw plate.

[Adam Cruea]

My first thought when I saw the Bad Axe saws was, "Are they going to ditch Wenzloff?" I immediately searched and they still sell the Wenzloffs. It makes sense, as Wenzloff offers panel saws that BA doesn't. I know Wenzloff has had issues recently and was wondering if LV was making sure they had a backup provider. It took forever to get my Wenzloff saw blades- just blades, no handles- direct from Wenzloff. Seems he now has his backstock caught up.

The Bad Axe saws seem very nice. I like the black option. Why do the "boutique" sawmakers not make more larger saws? I want a set of Kenyon "Benjamin Seaton" saws. Now is not the time for me to spend $700 on saws, but I sure do love those saws.

Funny you should ask. I asked Mark a similar thing on his Facebook page.

Basically, the main thing right now is that he doesn't want to add more lines and cost. His wife is the CFO of the company and she's being cautious about it. I believe, though, he said it's something they have planned for the future, though.

And another reason I need to order straight from Mark; the regular handles pinch my hands. :(

[Ron Bontz]

I won't go into detail. It would take up too much time and space. My furnace quit in my shop. SOoooo I am waiting for the furnace guy to show up. :(:(Thank technology for those little electric heaters. The last I checked it was a warm balmy 45 degrees.
1) As far as the Regan style handles are concerned, Hilton was right. I did stop making them. They are very hand specific and time consuming. But after several request for them I decided to go ahead and make them.
2) As far as the panel saws are concerned, I have been looking at ways to taper grind the plates ( on a small scale ) for about a year. It's my nemesis of sorts. I have a small shop and one method requires about 8 feet of wall space. Not to mention many green backs. The tensioning of the saws is another issue. Modern saws of 1095 spring steel, I do not believe, require as much work because of the higher quality control and consistency of the modern steels. Unless, of course, you just like dents in your saw plates. I would ask Lie Neilsen how he does it. I would love to know. But despite me being of no competition to anyone, I have always considered it an off limits question. Scruples of sorts. I have several "Panel saws" in my shop that I made. 18" to 22". They cut just fine and stay straight and by definition they are tapered. Thinner along the spine than tooth line. But some only taper their plates a total of 0.001" per side. Other's perhaps 0.003" per side. So what's the definition of tapered? By the way, not all modern saws, even by the big guys are 1095 spring steel. Saws can be 1075 or 1085, etc. and still be tempered to 52RC. Have you priced "actual Swedish Spring steel" made in Sweden, lately? That's all I will say about that. As far as some of the other topics mentioned, like lambs tongues etc. Well that is a subject I will try to address later on my web site. Just too lengthy.
Just a FYI. Some time in the near future I hope to revise my web site to be easier to navigate, etc. It's never exactly been a high end site. Enough said.:) Stay warm and best wishes, Ron

[george wilson]

True,1075 and the lower grades of spring steel CAN be hardened just as hard as 1095. What everyone forgets is WEAR resistance. Your 1075 saws will not stay sharp as long as 1095. There is no free lunch with steels. That must be understood. Take it from an old,experienced tool maker.

When we were making saws,I bought our spring steel from Precision Steel in Greensboro,N.C..(I think that's the correct address). They had about a $250.00 minimum purchase,plus a $75.00 cutoff fee for each thickness. Things added up very quickly.

I HAD to buy their .042" sheet in 12 3/8" width,because it is not offered wider than 6" in the small quantities that I saw listed in places like MSC. And,that was too narrow to make the crosscut and rip saws.

Do not be seduced by hardness numbers alone. Less carbon means less wear resistance and an inferior saw.

I was preparing to make a simple machine to taper grind the Kenyon crosscut and rip saws we were to make. I was going to use a sliding track with a vertical mounted motor with a large cup type wheel. Sort of like what a Tormek uses(not really a cup type wheel). David says Wenzloff uses a Tormek grinder to taper his. Fortunately,Jay Gaynor,curator of tools,said the originals had too little taper in them to worry about. So,I got out of having to do that. I don't classify .001" or .002" as a serious attempt at taper grinding..002" is the width of a fine,blow away blonde hair like I have.

Our saws were a bit heavier than the usual crosscut types,but that just helped make them self propelled.

I am having to have BOTH my furnace AND the downstairs air conditioner replaced. The furnace has a crack in the fire box. Both units are 24 years old. This is costing me big bucks. If I don't replace both units together,when the A.C. unit goes bad,it will be an extra thou. fitting it to the furnace duct work. Both are way past their expected service life.

[Ron Bontz]

Hi Adam ad George,
I had heard the same thing with regards to Bad Ax and panel saws. Rumors, some accurate, some not, seem to never cease in the small world of saw making. I generally try to avoid all the hype, and politics of anything and just take most with a grain of salt. I am not looking into anything large scale, myself. As far as the steel, I use only 1095 spring steel. 48-51RC. For that very reason. Toughness. I have in fact purchased a bit of steel from Precision Steel. The one in Chicago. The cut fee btw is now $175.00. Best to order 100 lbs or more at a time. Ya just gotta love learning all these lessons the hard way. :) So back to my little shop. Still waiting on the furnace guy. It's now up to 50*. Woo Hoo!.