Wagon Vise questions

[Ben Wheeler]

Hi there,

At the start of my very first post, I should say thanks to all for the great info I've been availing myself of recently. Apologies in advance for this extensive post!

I'm currently embarking on the building of my first workbench. Having read, watched and generally absorbed as much information as I could bring myself to, I'm pretty much going down the Schwarzian path of a Roubo-style bench with wagon and leg vise, to be mostly if not all put together with hand tools.

For whatever reason, the wagon vise-related posts all seem to be in this forum, so I humbly present to you a few questions:

1. My bench will have an end cap. Some builders simply leave their top boards short:

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...while some thrown in an extra piece next to the end cap:

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I'd like to do the former, in order to maximise the run of the vise, make it easier to build, and especially to make the chop removable. Is there any reason not to go this way?

2. Would the bolts/screws into the end cap be coach screws or similar?

3. Some builders seem to have a very skinny little chop. I can't see any reason to not have a nice wide one, so the vise is as useful as possible - what I have in mind is the width of 3 benchtop boards, or 135mm (over 5") square. Thoughts?

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Roderick Gentry]

I'm not familiar with all the wagon vice nomenclature, but if I have your questions down: 2 - the bolts i use in the endcap are either captured nut type, or drill rod secured in the bench so that the end cap just slides over the stud and is held by an acorn bolt. The coach screws are normally a pretty low quality bolt, and there isn't a head to hold onto when driving them. 3 - The chop is normally held narrow so that any board that is secured for planing, and is very light won't fall into it. I can see that being a problem, but probably some people never touch that kind of stock. I would have thought that many of the

[Jim Koepke]

Hi Ben,

Welcome to the Creek.

It looks to be two different ways of making a wagon vise shown. In the first, the shaft is stationary. The wagon contains the nut and moves along the threads. In the second, the shaft moves in and out of the bench. The nut is in the end cap not the wagon.

Not sure if this makes much difference.

The block at the end could be made removable so the wagon could be drawn all the way back for removal.

jtk

[Erik Christensen]

I built a benchcrafted shaker bench according to their plans. End cap held on with lag bolts and is removable but in a year of use have not even thought about wanting to. My design has the chop on the opposite end from the wagon vise and mine is 8" + wide. The wider you make the chop the more aware you have to be about racking and the more chop weight your hardware has to handle - that said my chop is 12/4 x 8" x ~ 36"

[Ben Wheeler]

Thanks for those responses, chaps - they give me some food for thought and some more items to research. It seems there are an almost infinite number of ways to stick a workbench together!

[Joe A Faulkner]

Is your question on the chop regarding the leg vise? If so, the Schwarz plans that I've been looking at call for a 8" wide chop. The Woodsmith plan I have calls for a 6" wide chop. Not sure what the benchcraft plan calls for, but most Roubo style bench have legs that are ~ 5" wide. I'd go with a chop that is wider than the leg - probably more like 8" wide.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Ben - are you asking about the chop width for a leg vise, or are your chop size questions a continuation of your questions about the wagon vise?

[Ben Wheeler]

I'm still talking about the wagon vise there. I would have assumed that with a dog centred in the chop, or a square workpiece being clamped in the vise, that racking wouldn't be an issue. Is that reasonable, or am I just safer with a narrow chop?

[Clay Fails]

Sorry but I am confused about your initial questions ben. I too built the Benchcrafted Roubo with the leg vise at the opposite end from the wagon vise. The wagon vise doesn't have a "chop" as I understand that term. I made the leg vise chop per the plans, and it is massive. The Benchcrafted scissor hardware works flawlwssly (as does their wagon vise hardware).

if you could clarify your question, I'm sure those of us who have built a similar bench could be of some help.

[Joe A Faulkner]

I'm still talking about the wagon vise there. I would have assumed that with a dog centred in the chop, or a square workpiece being clamped in the vise, that racking wouldn't be an issue. Is that reasonable, or am I just safer with a narrow chop?

Now I have a better understanding of your question. If the main purpose of the wagon vise is a quick way to clamp boards to the bench between dogs for chopping or planing, then it it seems you would only need a short "hole" in your bench to accommodate the travel of the dog. I don't see why the travel need be much longer than the spacing between your "fixed" dog holes. It looks like example 1 leaves about a 12" x 1.75" void in the top, where example 2 leaves a void that is about half as long. If you are going with example two, the void in your bench between the "chop" and the bench in theory could be used to clamp a board that could fit between the chop when the vise is fully open and the bench. Drawer sides, come to mind, and this might be a good clamping option for dovetail or finger joint sawing. of course as Jim points out, this means your vise screw extends somewhat beyond the end of your bench when the vise is fully open. A narrower chop gives you more capacity for clamping a board in the void. This option is limited of course if the void is occupied by the vise screw as in example 1, but this option has the benefit of screw not protruding out of the bench when the vise is open or partially closed. The only advantage I see to a shorter "chop" is to increase the clamping capacity between the chop and the bench. I don't think making it thicker/wider will make much of a difference in most of your work holding applications.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I think with the wagon vise, then I've heard it called the "travelling dog" more than a "chop", but maybe I'm totally wrong. I just was thinking folks were talking about leg vise chops in their replies and wanted to make sure were all on the same page.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm still talking about the wagon vise there. I would have assumed that with a dog centred in the chop, or a square workpiece being clamped in the vise, that racking wouldn't be an issue. Is that reasonable, or am I just safer with a narrow chop?

Even with the dog perfectly centered a workpiece with an off square end could cause slight racking.

I am not sure if this is just a minor occurrence that is ameliorated by the design and fit of the wagon and the grooves it rides in.

jtk

[Ben Wheeler]

Thanks again for all the replies.

Firstly, regarding terminology, all knowledge gleaned so far is from a variety of internet sources, and so while I've certainly seen the "chop" referred to in this way, it isn't necessarily correct or usual. Let's call it the "wagon" for now.

Jim, I take your point about the racking. Since, at this point, I'm a carpenter with a keen interest in woodwork but hardly any experience, I'm trying to build a bench that's as multipurpose as possible, and will include the wagon vise (for better or worse), leg vise (am considering moving up to a benchcrafted model) and a sliding deadman. Although having a wider wagon would allow for wider pieces to be clamped, I guess a decent leg vise should be able to handle those duties.

Joe, if you look at the 2nd picture, I'm more talking about the wagon being wider from left to right of this image, so a wide thin piece can slot in vertically.

[Erik Christensen]

Ben - if you are considering benchcrafted hardware I suggest you go for it - I built mine a year ago and it is by far the coolest "tool" I have. I use it every time I am in the shop and am constantly figuring out new ways to make work safer, easier or better. The hardware is more suited to a bank vault than woodshop - smooth as silk and just plain massive. I use the wagon vise 2-4 times as much as the leg vise but to be honest I don't remember ever using the wagon vise to clamp a vertical work piece but that might just be ignorance on my part. I do like the long travel of the benchcrafted wagon vise as it lets me use more than one fixed dog for a specific work piece.

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, I take your point about the racking. Since, at this point, I'm a carpenter with a keen interest in woodwork but hardly any experience, I'm trying to build a bench that's as multipurpose as possible, and will include the wagon vise (for better or worse), leg vise (am considering moving up to a benchcrafted model) and a sliding deadman. Although having a wider wagon would allow for wider pieces to be clamped, I guess a decent leg vise should be able to handle those duties.

The racking problem of a wagon vise can be lessened with a longer wagon, not so much a wider wagon. Another consideration is a narrow track for a wagon vise helps in supporting smaller work. Having a void under a light piece could cause problems when trying to plane the piece.

In my consideration of bench designs it seems the wagon vise excels at the task of securing a flat work piece to the top of a bench.

As great as it may be it does not seem to be the best solution for my various needs. Some of those needs could be resorted and made to work with a wagon vise. One of my main desires is being able to remove anything that protrudes from the edge or ends of the bench. There is a way to make that a simple task with a wagon vise, but there are other desires that are not met. Often auxiliary items are mounted in my tail vise. There are three small vises that mount on wooden bases that can be held in my tail vise. I also have a hand grinder that mounts in my tail vise. There are also a few other bench accessories and shooting boards that are made to be held by the tail vise.

My tail vise is not some great hardware from the makers of superior vises. It is likely the least expensive solution to work holding Sjoberg could put on their economy bench. It could be properly named the "Rack-O-Matic" as anything off center in the vise or not at least spanning both guide bars will cause the vise to rack.

In my everlasting quest of making my own bench it seems the long vise screw from Lee-Valley for ~$40 each will do the job in good order. Though I would like to use a hand wheel instead of a wooden dowel for the operator.

There are many reasons why a particular vise set up may be an individuals best solution. The placement of one's bench has a lot to do with many other design considerations.

If a bench is against a wall, there is little need for a tool tray if the wall is set up to hold tools. Though this limits how deep the bench can be due to the limits of being able to reach the wall of tools.

My plan is for a free standing bench so a tool tray solves a problem for me that others may see as the creation of a problem.

If the bench is close to a wall on the tail end then a wagon vise may be the best solution or even the only solution.

Some folks like a Scandinavian vise for the abilities it has that other vises in the same price range do not offer. It is a good choice for holding vertical and non-square work.

To me a wagon vise is a very cool addition to the work bench. It just doesn't do all I need it to do.

The form is beautiful, but my choice will be based on function in my shop, not anyone else's.

jtk

[phil harold]

I think you are saying you want a wagon vise 8"wide
novel idea!