Saw Sharpening Equipment Advice

[Dale Coons]

I have recently acquired several of my Grandad's saws--and I'd like to learn how to sharpen them. I've sent a couple of my own out to a service and they've come back seemingly in worse shape than I sent them. There's plenty of discussion of files here, but it's the other things I'm interested in. I'm looking for good equipment, I don't plan on collecting a bunch of it, so I'm really looking for good, solid, and serviceable that I won't be looking to replace. Don't mind spending what's necessary for good stuff, but I'm not looking for pristine. I can work with stuff that needs a little work. All of my saws at the moment are in the 7-12 TPI range if that matters. Can some of you saw guys answer a few questions and perhaps offer a bit of advice on these items:

Jointers:
I think a jointer for hand saws might possibly be unnecessary--one could just run a flat file across the teeth. But if I wanted to get one, I think I've figured out that I want one like this: 279055 because this second kind here seems to be for two man logging saws 279056. Is that right?

I've seen some brass ones and cast ones for handsaws, they all look pretty similar to me, so is it any big deal which brand/kind I get, or is there something other than the first style I should be looking at?


Vises
This is something else I might be able to make from a couple of boards, but I think I'd like to get one. Here I've got a few more questions.
-Does the jaw size really matter? They seem to range from about 8 inches or so on up to 10 or 11 inches in length
-Are the 'economy' or unmarked vises adequate, or should I be looking for a known brand like Disston or Stearns? (others?)
-There's a million different styles, here are three--but there are variants of all these, some that screw to a support instead of clamp, etc. I'll want something that clamps to a bench or table, but there are different styles. The first one here, that clamps and is low to the table makes the most sense to me, but hey, what do I know?

279057vise #2, a Disston 279058 seems like it might be a bit wobbly up in the air, but what say you with some experience? And finally, there's this type, which 279059 seems to clamp the saw from over the top instead of underneath--sorry for the small pic, I've borrowed these from various places. BTW, the first example here was unmarked and went for about $80, which hit me as way too much. I'm thinking I should be able to get a nice one in the $25-40 range--reasonable expectation or pipe dream?

Saw Sets
Here again there is a bewildering array of types and styles, but the Stanley 42X seems to be 'the one to get if you're just getting one'. Again, just looking for some advice from those who sharpen already.

Thanks in advance to the many of you who share your collective experience and wisdom!

d

[Steve Voigt]

Hi Dale,
I don't use a jointer; I hold the file with my thumbs on top and my index fingers against the saw plate.
I prefer homemade saw vises because (1) they're cheaper--you can make one for the price of a pair of narrow utility hinges and some scrap wood; (2) it's easier to tune them and modify them; (3) you can make them to the exact size you need. For example, my largest back saw is 14", and my largest rip saw is 27", so I made the jaws on my vise just over 14". That way, I never have to slide my back saws during filing, and I only have to slide my ripsaws once.
Lots of people like the 42x, but they're pricey. I use a Disston triumph for my coarse saws, and a Taintor's positive no.7 for my fine-toothed saws. I paid less than $10 for each of these. There are many serviceable sets out there. IIRC, the 42x wasn't even made until the 1920s, but somehow people managed without.
Lots of people will have different opinions, so as Jim K. has been saying lately, YMMV.

[Judson Green]

I have a vise but its not very good, was getting a lot of high pitched vibration. And I didn't like having to reposition a handsaw 3 times. So I built one with scrap plywood and 2x4 bits. Now I really only use the vise for backsaws (sash, tenon) and when setting. Got mine as part of a larger deal but could definitely do without.

On jointers. I don't use any. I'm not sure that being at 90° is as important as being close as possible to the same as the tooth fore and aft, so that all the teeth are in a relative line. 28" handsaw 9" file, how bad can it get. Could always make one out of a scrap.Hopefully someone else with more experience will chime in.

Got a 42x as part of the above mentioned deal, no experience with any others, but it seems nice.

Something you didn't mention that I've come to feel is an essential part of the kit, cheep reading glasses (or clip on reading glasses). At your local drug store or the bullseye place. I wear glasses so I had to find clip-ons, got em in Michaels in the back for about $12.

And lots of good light.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

As others have said, build your own vise, and you don't need the jointer. A wide kerf in a block of wood that you jam a file into is fine for a saw jointer.

I'd hold off on worrying about a saw set at first too - I've rarely encountered a saw "in the wild" that needed *more* set; rather, it's usually the opposite, that it has too much set to begin with. Unless you have to remove a whole lot of toothline or you're just retoothing the things in general it may very well be a while until you need a saw set.

[Roderick Gentry]

I have a diston vise, and japanese one, though I rarely use them. The problem is that they are designed to attach to a 1" table top. Lots of easy workarounds for that I guess. But if you are far enough into this to have a "proper" bench, there isn't a convenient way to attach them. The first thing you can attach to the vises is a vertical board, and that doesn't get you too far. So by the time you have jigged the vise into position, you could have made a vise, and with the metal one it is still only attached by means of a C type clamp, so it won't be that sturdy. This is presumably why the Gramercy Saw Vise is configured to attach to a board. Of course, if you have the right thickness auxiliary bench it is probably too low.

As far as the other gear is concerned, I think a handle for the jointing file is just a good safety thing. The one I have was purchased eons ago to sharpen ski edges, so I have it whether I need it or not. There are all kinds of reasons to handle files, most of which I ignore, but this isn't an expensive thing, so why not. A saw set is worth having maybe, though they mostly seem to extreme for my personal use. You are at whatever the anvil is set for, and it seems like too much. Still again, getting the right one off ebay is cheap. I forget the one one is supposed to want. I dutifully bought it on the bay, and at least I have it if I ever want to frame a house with wet 2x, sawing by hand.

[Richard Line]

All of the above seems, to me, to be good advise. I'll just add one other item; consider getting the LV saw sharpening guide. It is more money than making wood guides, but then you don't have to store and then find the right guide when the time comes.

[Jonathan McCullough]

It helps to use a red sharpie to mark the gullet to the tips of the teeth. You can easily see if you've jointed sufficiently, and to see if you're faithfully reproducing the rake/fleam on a saw that still has a factory sharpening.

[Steve Voigt]

I have a diston vise, and japanese one, though I rarely use them. The problem is that they are designed to attach to a 1" table top. Lots of easy workarounds for that I guess. But if you are far enough into this to have a "proper" bench, there isn't a convenient way to attach them. The first thing you can attach to the vises is a vertical board, and that doesn't get you too far. So by the time you have jigged the vise into position, you could have made a vise, and with the metal one it is still only attached by means of a C type clamp, so it won't be that sturdy. This is presumably why the Gramercy Saw Vise is configured to attach to a board. Of course, if you have the right thickness auxiliary bench it is probably too low.


I don't see what your point is here. That we shouldn't use a vise? There are innumerable ways of attaching a vise to a bench.




As far as the other gear is concerned, I think a handle for the jointing file is just a good safety thing.

I have never heard of, or seen, someone using a handle on a jointing file. It seems obvious that the handle would get in the way and make it impossible to joint the teeth. Maybe I am missing something.


A saw set is worth having maybe, though they mostly seem to extreme for my personal use. You are at whatever the anvil is set for, and it seems like too much.

No, this is just wrong. On its finest setting, my Taintor will only move the tooth about .001. My other set, on its finest setting, will move the tooth .002-.003. And those are sets with rotating anvils. The whole point of the 42x is that you aren't restricted to a fixed setting.

[Kim Malmberg]

I agree with most others. Build your own vise. I have had two steel vises, and none of them ave been very good. They excel in only one negative way. They amplify the sound of your file. So build your own. One thing that is very handy in a metal vise is that most can be tilted. This is very useful when filing crosscut teeth. But your wooden vise can be tilted too if you fit it into a Scandinavian style bench.

As far as saw sets goes, I have never used a Stanley #42, so I cannot say how good this saw set is. But I have used plenty of others. My top three of saw sets is this:

1. Millers Falls # 214. This is a entirely underrated saw set of excellent quality. If this saw set has one flaw it is that any pistol grip saw set will struggle if your vise is fat at the middle and if your saw plate is very shallow beneath the handle. Bit this saw set is extremely versatile and very well made with a very solid anvil. People in the US seems to swear by the Stanley 42X, and I haven't tried one, but the Millers Falls version is almost identical and costs less than the Stanley. Trust me, the MF version is sheer quality.

2. Japanese Somax saw sets. These are excellent and they allow for a wide range of saws. They will also set teeth in very tight spaces.

3. Charles Morrill saw set no 95. This one is very easy to use and it has a very wide anvil, which limits th risk of breaking teeth while setting. Affordable, yet very functional.

[Dale Coons]

Well this is all great. I had a bid running on the bay so I wound up with a 42x for $35, which doesn't seem too bad, but I think I'll skip the other stuff for now and try homemade.

Steve, I think the 'handle' Roderick referred to is probably the jointer frame the file goes into, not a regular handle.

Thanks to all for the comments!

d

[Jim Koepke]

Well this is all great. I had a bid running on the bay so I wound up with a 42x for $35, which doesn't seem too bad, but I think I'll skip the other stuff for now and try homemade.

That is a fare price for the 42X.

You are correct about the jointer file holders. The first one is commonly used on shop saws. The second is made for logging saws but with care can be used for jointing shop saws.

Making your own is a good way to go. Here is a post by Bob Smalser about saw sharpening:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?8198-Sharpening-Handsaws

There is a link to Vintagesaws.com which has some very useful information.

His post is archived in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs section which is in the Neanderthal Haven Announcements:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

Lots of good reading in there.

Including another thread on saw restoration by Bob Smalser:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?66090-New-Life-for-an-Old-Saw-%96-Advanced-Filing-and-Restoration&highlight=chisel

Towards the bottom there are plans for building a wooden saw vise.

The Lee Valley saw file holder is a nice tool. In my case I have a lot of little blocks of wood that are already set up to go on ends of files for this work. They are also a lot less expensive.

A lot of the saw vises available in the wild have problems. Some of the less expensive cast vises with a lever action have seen a lot of work and suffer from worn cams on the lever. Many have a groove for a strip of leather which is usually missing.

If you desire some of the other tools of saw sharpening keep your eyes open for yard sales and such. Often a decent saw vise can be had for $10 because no one knows what it is. It just take being patient over a period of time.

jtk

[Chris Fournier]

The only thing I have ever purchased for saw sharpening was files by the dozen in various sizes as required, everything else is shop made and works well.

[Mike Allen1010]

+1 for lots of light (adjustable desk lamp works for me). Also recommend a magnifying flip down visor and decent calipers for measuring plate thickness and tooth set.

Vintage saws tutorial is great. Invest in some quality files (I like Bahco for the value v. Performance), so you're not tempted to "stretch" a worn out file too long ( nothing good never comesmofmthat) and some small file handles w/ steel threads (Pette's site has those too).

Good luck and stick with it - you'll be gladl you did with some practise.

Cheers' Mike