G0690 problems

[Marc Myers]

I am writing about a 690 table saw I ordered in April. I've had some issues with it I've not been able to resolve despite following the manual for setup, and making a few calls/emails to Grizzly asking for help. I wonder if there is another 690 user who has experienced the same issue. The issue is the blade isn't spinning true. It wobbles by a 1/16" or so and I can't get it to go away. I've checked for cracks in the trunnions, all alignment screws, the riving knife, etc. I've spent a good number of hours trying to square it up and nothing. Changed blades and the problem is the same. I get a lot of runout, not black marks but runout none the less, with a Forrest WW2 blade and the workpiece will bounce on the table behind the blade. I get the feeling something is spinning in an oval fashion due to improper machining. I have even watch the Grizzly you tube channel on squaring up the table to the blade.

Grizzly seems to think I need to replace the blade arbor assembly. I measured it with a magnetic base dial caliper along the large washer that meets the blade and it's true to within .002 so that doesn't seem to be the issue. I've even gone to the extent to put my good blades on a 10 yr old DW744 jobsite saw and I got better cuts. The sound even was better and no runout.

Anyone have any ideas or anything else I can check to get the 690 to cut properly?

[Richard Coers]

Check the runout on the washer with the drive belt off. The load of the belt tension may be masking trouble with the bearings. Do you feel vibration in the saw? An imbalance may be setting up some harmonics in the blade. Also remember that a little runout at the shaft will be magnified at the tip of the blade. Did you measure the runout on the face of the washer or on the outside? You might try adding a piece of tape between the blade and the washer, on the side of the washer so it has no runout. See if the blade runs better. If Grizzly will send you a new arbor assembly, why not let them?

[Erik Loza]

Did this problem just start recently or has it always been that way? If it's always been this way, I would suspect improper machining. If it just started, I would suspect the bearings. As Richard said, I would run the saw without the drive belt and see if there is any vibration then. That would narrow it down to a motor/trunnion-related issue or an arbor/belt/bearing-related issue.

Best of luck with it,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[glenn bradley]

Yep, get the weight off the arbor and check for runout / bearing grind. If the arbor runs true, check against the face of the inner "washer" that the blade seats against. The fact that it wobbles makes me lean toward runout but, this could be machining or bearings. If all is well with the belts off, put them back but, don't make them so tight; re-test. I am surprised Grizzly has been willing to let you remain unsatisfied(???). Tell us how you do.

[Marc Myers]

The new arbor assembly from Griz is on its way, but will be a few weeks as it's out of stock and they have to get it overseas. It's their opinion that this is the issue. Not that I don't believe them, just looking for more opinions. Taking the table off will require a few friends and I don't want to have to do it more times than I really need to. Not to mention the time to reset the table, fence, etc after I remove it.

It's been running like that since I got it. I just assumed I needed to do more to get all the parts aligned properly or I made a mistake putting it together. Frustration bought me a couple different calibration tools and a homemade jig that has a dial caliper that rides in the miter gauge slot. Its from this jig that I found a runout of .015-.020 (at the teeth, not the center) as I spin the blade freehand. The slight vibration in the saw I assumed was due to it being on a mobile base and a less than perfect shop floor. It was when I swapped the blades into the DeWalt that I came to the conclusion it's something with the 690 I have not been able to pin down.

I measured the runout on the inside face of the washer, with the blade off it would be the part that touches the blade, along the outside edge, away from the threaded bolt. I did not measure it with the belts off or loosened. Do you think I have too much tension on the belts?

[Marc Myers]

I just spent about a half hour with the tape trick. I loosened the nut and removed the tension on the belts. Hooked up the magnetic base dial caliper and took a reading as you guys suggested. Accurate to within .002 Put the blade back on and tightened (with the belts loose) and out by .018 when spun freehand. After some trial and error finding the right spot to put a piece of masking tape, I found it and got the blade to spin freehand to an accuracy of .005, much closer than before the tape.

At first thought, maybe the blade is out of shape. But I did the same test with a WW2 and a Freud Industrial and got the exact same readings on the calipers? I wouldn't gave guessed a piece of tape would be the fix, but there is merit to that suggestion.

[Rick Moyer]

You ARE putting the washer on correctly, aren't you? The hollowed out part goes toward the blade and the nut fits into the hole in the washer. Only asking because if it's backward the blade will not get tight enough and might cause run out!?

[Marc Myers]

Yeah, the nut and bolt are installed correctly...just like you mentioned. A piece of blue painters tape brought the blade back to .006-.008 Quite a bit better than without the tape. I'm not sure what the exact tolerance is for a blade in any saw, but I'm getting closer. I'll likely have to wait for the new assembly from Griz and see what that does. For now, I'll leave the tape on there and press onward.

It is my first Grizzly tool though. Customer service has been great, but it plays along with all the other hit or miss stories from them. Save a little money by eliminating the middleman, but QC isn't up to par with Jet or PM I don't think.

[Ronald Blue]

Are you using a dial indicator or dial caliper to check the run out? I hope you are using a dial indicator. I can't imagine getting consistent and repeatable readings without. There are two places you should be checking. The flange the blade tightens against and the arbor shaft itself. If the flange has runout it will be amplified in the diameter of the blade. Check the arbor itself as its possible it could be bent and causing the problem as well. I think it's more likely you have a bent arbor. I base this on the vibration issue you speak of. The blade can wobble and not vibrate. Think of the wobble type dado blades. I have no specific knowledge of your table saw but this is just fundamental checks that you can make. Since you have tried different blades the problem has to be in the arbor. It isn't likely the bearings are the problem and if they are they will either feel rough or you will be able to feel slop in them. Just my .02 worth. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Marc Myers]

It is a dial indicator, not a caliper. My mistake there.

All signs are pointing toward what you said, a bent arbor. The blade is wobbling without question. If you power down the saw and watch the blade line, you can watch it wiggle before it comes to a stop. The funny thing is, when you read the measurements on the dial indicator at the teeth spinning the blade by hand, the high and low points are not 180 degrees to each other. You'd think that all the parts being round, there would be a diagonal line between the two points creating two half circles. As it is, the high and low points are about 60 degrees to each other. Strange but true and points to a bent arbor.

Hopefully Griz gets the assembly in stock and off to me sooner rather than later.

[Phil Thien]

.002" at the flange is quite a bit, as the 10" blade will magnify that .002" by 5x. So you really want the flange so measure somewhere in the tenths (ten-thousands). So Grizzly's advice is probably spot-on.

[Richard Coers]

.002" at the flange is quite a bit, as the 10" blade will magnify that .002" by 5x. So you really want the flange so measure somewhere in the tenths (ten-thousands). So Grizzly's advice is probably spot-on.

If he measured .002, 5 times that is only .01. He claims the blade wobbles .0625. That's over 30 times the difference, and it doesn't add up.

[Marc Myers]

1/16 is a guesstimate. I probably should have stuck with the real numbers from the get go. Phil's theory is spot on I think as well as what Griz is telling me. At the teeth, it's off by .015 or so, a whisker more at the worst spot. Not terribly far from Phil's math.

[Mikail Khan]

As you turn the shaft does the dial indicator increase slowly up to 0.002 and then drop back off slowly to 0.000? This would suggest a machining problem. If it only flickers up to 0.002 at one point and then drops back off quickly it could be burr or high spot that could be filed flat.

[Marc Myers]

Definetly not a burr.

I got word from Grizz...whole new arbor assembly will be shipped out ASAP.

[Jim Andrew]

Wondering if this is a common problem on the GO690? Met a guy who had bought a new one and said he sold it and bought a jet. He said his son has a 1023 and it is a totally different and better saw than the 690. Just wondering as I heard about this recently. There was also a nearly new one with long rails on Nextech classified for 850 a few days ago. I checked again and it was gone, so someone picked up a bargain!

[Jason White]

Did you check the tension on the belt(s)? Make sure it/they are not loose. The weight of the motor is all that's needed to get proper tension on the belt(s).



I am writing about a 690 table saw I ordered in April. I've had some issues with it I've not been able to resolve despite following the manual for setup, and making a few calls/emails to Grizzly asking for help. I wonder if there is another 690 user who has experienced the same issue. The issue is the blade isn't spinning true. It wobbles by a 1/16" or so and I can't get it to go away. I've checked for cracks in the trunnions, all alignment screws, the riving knife, etc. I've spent a good number of hours trying to square it up and nothing. Changed blades and the problem is the same. I get a lot of runout, not black marks but runout none the less, with a Forrest WW2 blade and the workpiece will bounce on the table behind the blade. I get the feeling something is spinning in an oval fashion due to improper machining. I have even watch the Grizzly you tube channel on squaring up the table to the blade.

Grizzly seems to think I need to replace the blade arbor assembly. I measured it with a magnetic base dial caliper along the large washer that meets the blade and it's true to within .002 so that doesn't seem to be the issue. I've even gone to the extent to put my good blades on a 10 yr old DW744 jobsite saw and I got better cuts. The sound even was better and no runout.

Anyone have any ideas or anything else I can check to get the 690 to cut properly?

[Mike Tekin]

Wondering if this is a common problem on the GO690? Met a guy who had bought a new one and said he sold it and bought a jet. He said his son has a 1023 and it is a totally different and better saw than the 690. Just wondering as I heard about this recently. There was also a nearly new one with long rails on Nextech classified for 850 a few days ago. I checked again and it was gone, so someone picked up a bargain!

I have the Shop Fox version and my saw is great - no issues. I think you just got a lemon but it appears grizzly is helping. Plus this same saw is also sold by Laguna and others...

[Guy Belleman]

If he measured .002, 5 times that is only .01. He claims the blade wobbles .0625. That's over 30 times the difference, and it doesn't add up.

I suspect the magnification of the arbor run out is not computed only by the radius of the blade, but by the ratio of the similar triangles of movement between the arbor and the blade. Therefore, the magnification of arbor wobble could result in a lot more than 5 times in blade wobble. Not sure of all the measurements, so not sure what the exact magnification would be though. Replacing the arbor and/or bearing it goes into should fix the problem.

[Marc Myers]

I knew shop fox had a similar model, but did not think it was the same as the Griz painted different. Also did not know at all Laguna was branding one as theirs too. I got mine for, I think it was $1400 shipped and that included a 36" metal roller outfeed table Griz also sells. Bought a heavy mobile base for it until I move into a more permanent shop, then it will sit on the floor as it should. Are the other models a better deal?

[scott spencer]

I wonder how many lemons Grizzly sells a year? That term seems to pop up when someone has trouble with a piece of their equipment.

I'd be curious to know their actual defect rate vs other brands. Since they sell so many saws, hearing about a few problems isn't a surprise. The G0690 design is pretty well proven...also available (or was) as a Laguna Platinum, Shop Fox W1819, Craftex, Baleigh, Harvey, possibly Oliver, and others.

[glenn bradley]

I'd be curious to know their actual defect rate vs other brands. Since they sell so many saws, hearing about a few problems isn't a surprise. The G0690 design is pretty well proven...also available (or was) as a Laguna Platinum, Shop Fox W1819, Craftex, Baleigh, Harvey, possibly Oliver, and others.

I believe Shiraz has posted about this in the past. The cost of dealing with an anomaly such as the OP is having really kills any profit on the sale. A very small percentage is quite impactive.

[Marc Myers]

I hate to dig up an oldie, but I got the new part from Griz and got it installed. They shipped me a new arbor assembly. Took me about 2 hours to make the swap, and the bad news happened. It didn't help. I made a little youtube video showing the blade and dial indicator moving around all over the place and sent it off to them. They had a 'group' look at it and suggested it might be the blade, so I picked up a brand new one at Home Cheapo and compared a Diablo to my WW2. The deflection is the same. Have a peek

The WW2 blade http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kwlnasm5YXk
And the Diablo brand new one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki4uFEsKTnY

Anyone care to take a peek and offer some advice on how to fix this?

[Mikail Khan]

Did the arbor assembly include a washer? If the blade is OK the runout should show up on the arbor or washer.

MK

[Mikail Khan]

Try stacking both blades together like a dado blade. Don't overtighten and recheck runout. See if the blade is distorting as you tighten.

MK

[glenn bradley]

Anyone care to take a peek and offer some advice on how to fix this?

Marc, I am sorry you are having this trouble. I am a bit confused. This is a new saw, under warranty and obviously has a defect. If Grizzly cannot diagnose and resolve the problem over the phone in a reasonable time (that would be 6 months ago), they should swap the saw. You have gone above and beyond anything that I would do. I am willing to do quite a bit for the low price of a Grizzly but, I do expect to get a usable machine. That machine is not usable. If the person you talk to cannot resolve the issue, ask to talk to his boss. Keep escalating till you get results. Shiraz (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?5851-Shiraz-Balolia) has posted to this forum as recently as last month. Send him a PM.

[Phil Thien]

Ugh!

So checkout this webpage:

http://woodgears.ca/saw_arbor/

Look closely at the instructions for measuring the arbor flange, and the blade washer. I'm interested if this new arbor flange is also out by .002", and use Mathias' method for checking your blade washer, too, and report back.

Personally, I'd check w/ Grizzly and if they okayed me performing the grinding with the stone and sanding the washer, I'd go for it. Easier than swapping parts, and you can really dial it in.

Mathias is a perfectionist (nuttin' wrong with that!), he complains about .002" when he is done. I've got one blade where I can get .001", .002" or .003" is really very very good.

[Marc Myers]

I've been working with Grizzly since Dec to get this fixed. The warranty will run out in March. For the bulk of the summer and into fall, I assumed it was something I did during the setup and initial put together of the machine that was causing the blade to wobble like that. Keep tweeking, fine tuning, watching their YouTube channel, whatever to figure it out. I finally gave up on it and started to look further into answers. Griz customer service has been great but part of the holdup was that the part wasn't in stock in the US. They had to get it from overseas and that took a few weeks before it made it's way to me.

I have not tried to stack the blades yet, seems a bit odd but I'll give it a shot. The new arbor came with a new washer and nut, but I had to change out the gears for raising and lowering the blade, and the parts for the riving knife. They are all tied to the arbor assembly, but were not on the replacement arbor. I would nearly want it in writing from Grizzly if they OKed the grinding of parts to fix the issue and would likely try to get a new shipped to me before I went that far. I'm more of a woodworker than a machinist.

It was after I sent the first video to show Griz exactly what I was doing and what the problem was, soon after they suggested a new blade to see if the WW2 was defective. Forrest makes very good blades, as we all know, so I found it hard to believe that was the issue. The new Diablo from Home Cheapo only proves it. The amount of runout match nearly identical on the dial indicator. The worst part, for me at least, is that Grizzly reputation is hit or miss. I recieved my G0555LX bandsaw last week and have been putting it together, but in the back of my mind I'm hoping it doesn't turn into an issue.

The snowstorm in the north east has likely shut down Grizzly, and I'm waiting to hear back from them once they view the video with the new blade. I had not considered asking for a replacement saw, but you're right. If they can't figure it out, it's what I should do at this point before the warranty runs out.

[Marc Myers]

One last post. I looked at the woodgears link and make a return visit to the saw while it was fresh in my mind. I did my best to read the washer, and if someone told me it was within .002 on the dial, I wouldn't dispute it. Seems within tolerance. I did stack the WW2 and the Diablo and took a reading just like in the videos, and the deflection remains, about .013-.014 as I free spin the blade. As for overtightening, I tightened the nut as tight as I could with my fingers, no wrenches, and the reading I got was hardly different, maybe .011-.012.

Not really understanding why the arbor seems flat, blades are good, but runout remains??

[Charles Coolidge]

First don't turn the blade by the teeth when you are measuring, turn the arbor by the arbor nut to avoid deflection while measuring. Second measure the left side of the blade, mark the blade, arbor, and washer with a piece of tape where the run out is worst. Third measure the other side of the blade to confirm run out is the same and in the same location. Now loosen the arbor nut rotate just the blade 180 degrees on the arbor and re-test. If the run out moved 180 degrees following the blade its the blade. If the run out didn't move with the blade its the arbor or washer. Rotate just the washer and re-test. Don't discount the possibility that you got two bad blades that's just the kind of weird thing that will drive you nuts right murphys law.

[Phil Thien]

One last post. I looked at the woodgears link and make a return visit to the saw while it was fresh in my mind. I did my best to read the washer, and if someone told me it was within .002 on the dial, I wouldn't dispute it. Seems within tolerance.

Again, any runout on the flange is multiplied at the teeth of the blade. If you look at the Woodgears.ca site again, you will see he said:


On the arbor, the variation should be less than .001". In fact, if you can measure it at all, its too much. Even at the unacceptable level of wobble that my saw had, it was still less than .001".

This step should also be done with the belt off, as pulling on the belt will deflect the arbor more than .001"

But really, measuring this is unnecessary. It's mainly for the anal retentive who happen to own a displacement indicator.



So you're getting .002", and that is really unacceptable, you will never get the blade to run true with that much deviation on at the flange. You really need an indictor that can get you to tenths (ten-thousandths of an inch). If you're looking for .002" or so at the teeth of the blade, you need .0002" at the flange.

If you want to convince yourself that this is the cause, I suggest marking the low and high spots, and then reinstall the blade. But this time, add a piece of thin paper (that thermal cash register receipt paper may do) between the blade, and the low spot on the flange. Now take your readings at the teeth of the blade again and I'll bet you see much less movement of the needle on your DI.

[Mikail Khan]

In post #10 you stated that your high and low points were not 180 deg apart. A bent arbor would give you a smooth increase/decrease as you make a full revolution with high and low points exactly 180 apart.

From the Forrest WW2 vid it appears that for one half of the revolution the dial moves about 3 thou. For the other half of the revolution it moves about 9 thou. Is this correct?

This suggests that the blade is distorted. I do not suspect a blade defect.

Check the runout on the face of the arbor. It should be within one thou.

Put a mark on the abor, washer and blade. Determine if the high runout is related to one position of the arbor or washer.

MK

[Charles Coolidge]

I would add measurements are only as good as your measuring tools and setup. You are seeing enough at the blade that there's obviously an issue but I would keep this in mind when measuring the arbor run out. I would add that I recently purchased a WWII 12" that was out .008 and I returned it. A 12" Freud and 12" Ridge Carbide blade were both within .001 on the same saw. I have a brand new Forrest 12" RAS blade which I have not measured yet. I have a 10" WWII and 10" Forrest 70 tooth'ish blade they both measure within .001. That tells me most of these high quality blades are spot on with their stated accuracy but there can be the occasional DOH blade on the shelf.

[Marc Myers]

The runout is more on one side than the other, but it is the same on two different blades. I suppose I could try with a third and eliminate ''Murphys Law'' but I'm at the point where I'm wondering what is the right thing to do? Not that I don't appreciate all the help, I certainly do. But at the end of the day the facts are I've gone through two arbor assemblies and two blades with the issue being identical all around. I can relate to Glenn's post, I'd do a lot for the low price but I expect a useable machine. I ordered the saw on March 23 and it's got Grizzly's one year warranty. In terms of checking this, checking that, blade on/off, belts loose/tight, etc etc etc where do I draw the line and start to push back some get them to replace the machine entirely before it's too late?

[Brian Tymchak]

...But at the end of the day the facts are I've gone through two arbor assemblies and two blades with the issue being identical all around. I can relate to Glenn's post, I'd do a lot for the low price but I expect a useable machine. I ordered the saw on March 23 and it's got Grizzly's one year warranty. In terms of checking this, checking that, blade on/off, belts loose/tight, etc etc etc where do I draw the line and start to push back some get them to replace the machine entirely before it's too late?

You reported the issue well within the warranty period. They should honor any resolution even if the warranty period expires.

BTW, FWIW, I would have been talking replacement with Grizzly quite a while ago. You are trooper to have hung in this long.

[glenn bradley]

In terms of checking this, checking that, blade on/off, belts loose/tight, etc etc etc where do I draw the line and start to push back some get them to replace the machine entirely before it's too late?

I will re-state that I think you're done. Get a saw you can use. They have delivered a machine that is flawed and they need to resolve that pronto. Unlike others, I am a Grizzly fan because it leaves me so much more money to spend on wood. However, any time I have had an issue, they have resolved it quickly and happily. Somewhere along the line, you got a service rep who was having a bad day and he has set the tone for this case. Talk to "his" boss.

[Marc Myers]

The overwhelming vote was to get the saw replaced. I think you're all right and I've done what I can. I took Glenn's suggestion to get ahold of Shiraz and see what can be done. If they replace the 690 for me, and my new G0555LX runs correctly, I would have no problem remaining loyal to them for future tools.

[Marc Myers]

I find no flaw in your logic Phil. I've reached out to him already and will wait and see. I'm not oppposed to fixing or replacing at this point, I just want a saw that is useable for what I need it to do. And with the runout I've demonstrated, it's not there on this saw. I had already had the thought to have them check and repack (very well) the replacement, should it get to that point, before sending it to me. My shop is in a basement and the access is down the stairs through the bulkhead. Not looking forward to this part if it's necessary.

[Charles Coolidge]

The runout is more on one side than the other, but it is the same on two different blades. I suppose I could try with a third and eliminate ''Murphys Law'' but I'm at the point where I'm wondering what is the right thing to do? Not that I don't appreciate all the help, I certainly do. But at the end of the day the facts are I've gone through two arbor assemblies and two blades with the issue being identical all around. I can relate to Glenn's post, I'd do a lot for the low price but I expect a useable machine. I ordered the saw on March 23 and it's got Grizzly's one year warranty. In terms of checking this, checking that, blade on/off, belts loose/tight, etc etc etc where do I draw the line and start to push back some get them to replace the machine entirely before it's too late?

Marc I think you are making it a lot more difficult than it really is, this is a simple process elimination and there's not too many things to eliminate, its the arbor or the arbor washer or the arbor nut (make sure there's not a bur or nick on it same for the washer) or the blade that's not many choices. Take a step back and take a deep breath. Mark these components and go back and measure/rotate as I suggested earlier. It should take you less than an hour to have your answer.

[Marc Myers]

I'm going to try your suggestion this evening or tomorrow if time doesn't allow. But I think you are off a bit when you say its one of three things. The arbor assembly is connected to a thick rod which is also helps hold the motor in place. Changing the arbor assembly didn't help which leads me to believe the problem lies elsewhere.

I did get an email back from the rep I've been dealing with thus far. All my communication has been via email with him as I've not been able to reach him by phone yet. He said the old assembly will back in their hands tomorrow and they will inspect it and get back to me. I also got a call from a different rep with some questions and I spoke with him for a bit before I had to get back to work. I'm not sure if this is a part of the "group" who was originally looking at the videos or if me reaching out to the president had something to do with it. Time will tell

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Marc,

The thick rod you reference doesn't turn when you turn the blade. It couldn't be causing the problem.

The problem has to be caused by something that is rotating when you are rotating the blade.

If you are seeing deflection while turning the blade it would have to be related to the washers capturing the blade, the nut holding the blade and the washers on the arbor or the arbor shaft the blade is mounted on. If there is a turned flange on the arbor shaft against which the "inside" washer rests, that flange would have to absolutely perpendicular to the center line of the axis of the arbor shaft.

If you mark the place on the blade where you see the maximum deflection/error, does the deflection/error occur at that same place each time you rotate the blade manually?

One example I experienced of bad nut....yes a bad nut....was on my cheap Woodcraft slow speed grinder. I was experiencing a lot of vibration. When I inspected one of the grinding wheels, I noticed that only a small portion of the face of the nut was making contact with the washer that helped capture the grinding wheel. It was a nut with a left hand thread and I found a replacement at a local Ace Hardware. The entire surface of the face of the new nut made contact with the washer and the vibration was gone after I replaced the defective nut.

In the case of my grinder arbor, the hole and threads on the original nut weren't perpendicular to the face of the nut thus only a small part of the surface of the face made contact with the washer. This allowed the grinding wheel to develop a wobble when spun up to it's normal operating RPM.

[Duane Meadows]

I have to agree with Charles. I also question run-out measurements take by moving the blade with your hand by the blade rim.. can introduce a lot of error that way. Also, is there any slop between your DIY jig, and the miter slot? Either could possibly explain the non-linear errors shown in your video.

Just a thought, you mentioned having vibration. If you take off the belt(s), do you still have the vibration? If so, may be a bad motor, which could setup resonances in the blade. Could also explain why you apparently have way more operating run-out than measured run-out! You said the blade wobbles 1/16(0.0625) of an inch, yet I am only seeing .010- .012 in you video. I have heard several cases of motor vibration on recent Griz motors. Had one myself on a Griz drill press, but that's been about 18 years ago.

Grizzly has been really good about fixing any of the very few problems I have had with their product.

[Marc Myers]

The flange and washer/ nut were replaced as part of the new assembly I got. It didn't fix the issue. I measured 1/16 as a guesstimate before I got the caliper to do a proper measurement. Grizz called me this evening and the word is they are going to inspect the old assembly I sent back. If they are not able to find what it is, they want to swap the saw for a replacement. Their words not mine in this phone call. A major PITA but it will happen if they decide its what needs to be done.

[Jim O'Dell]

Marc, sorry you've had issues with your 690. Just a note....if the saw swap does happen, I'd suggest doing your own measurements before moving it downstairs to the shop. And have you done the measurements that Charlie suggested? May or may not define a fix for your current saw, but I agree that it should at least point to the piece that is bad. Oh, and is there any lateral movement in the arbor shaft? If there was, that could also account for lateral movement in the blade. You may have checked these already and it didn't show anything, but just thoughts going through my head reading your saga. Hope they get it fixed for you soon. I love my 691. Just wish I had more time to use it!!! Jim.

[Marc Myers]

I keep getting side tracked when trying to do Charlies suggestion. I did recall the Murphys Law thought and picked up a third blade to test from Lowes. Guess what. It's accurate to within .004, within the tolerances of a good setup. Has me even more stumped than ever. Grizzly did call me back and told me there were no issues with the part I shipped back and they were not able to replicate the runout. It was starting to look like I'd be swapping saws and I asked about the belts, overtightening the nut, etc and it was a "yeah, maybe" kind of answer and that's why I picked up a new blade on the way home.

My hail mary pass at this point (trying to avoid a saw swap) was to call the Grizz rep back and ask about their clout with Forrest since they are a distributor. If Grizzly can hook me up with a new WW2 40T blade, I'll check it for runout and see the results. If it's good, I'll keep the good blade and good DeWalt blade as a backup and be happy as a clam. If the new WW2 is off, that will give me 3 off bad blades to 1 good one. At this point, I'll be likely asking for a new saw. It's my hope that Grizz has more pull with Forrest than I would do to call them and say "I've got this blade I bought a year ago, no reciept, and I think it's bad. I blamed my saw, but it looks like it might be your fault" I just figure Grizz has a contact with Forrest, they can explain the whole thing from the tool/blade perspective since they sell both, and can work something out.

On a related, but different subject. I did get my new G0555LX put together. I ordered the Olson Pro Pack 3 blade from Amazon and put the 1/4" on there to make some sawdust. As my luck would have it, I got a bent blade!! The blades went back to Amazon and I'm waiting for time to make the hour drive to Woodcraft for some Timberwolf's. I keep thinking this would be a bad time for me to buy some lottery tickets.

[Eric Shapin]

Hi Marc,

Seems that this is getting very complicated. Appears to me that if you have even one good blade, that the saw itself is exonerated; i.e., an out-of-round arbor/flange/washer, or eccentric orbit on the part of the arbor, would cause a runout in every blade. My suggestion: complete Charles' regimen for checking the source of the error; given the good blade, your are apt to fined none. Then keep using that blade. For what it is worth, seems doubtful that Grizzly can help with Forrest (too complicated, and you did not buy the blade from Grizzly). But you can contact Forrest yourself, tell them about the runout, and ask for a replacement (or return it to the retailer for the same reasons). Keep us posted.

[glenn bradley]

Grizzly did call me back and told me there were no issues with the part I shipped back and they were not able to replicate the runout.

So it sounds like it is what the part is mounted into that is the contributing factor. If you have tried a couple different blades and one of them was new, I am having a hard time leaning toward the blade. One of these (http://www.amazon.com/Freud-CD010-Calibration-Sanding-Arbor/dp/B001NI6O4Y/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1391889900&sr=8-16&keywords=freud++plate)would prove that out inexpensively if you have any suspicion about the blades you have been using. I can understand the logistics of the saw's location tempering your desire to do a swap but, I wouldn't want a saw that I scowled at every time I entered the shop.

[Charles Coolidge]

I did recall the Murphys Law thought and picked up a third blade to test from Lowes. Guess what. It's accurate to within .004, within the tolerances of a good setup. Has me even more stumped than ever.

Murphy's law there you go. .004 is probably good for a Lowes quality blade. Mark the blade and arbor at .004 with a small piece of tape then rotate the blade around trying different positions in relation to the arbor, maybe 90, 180, 270 degrees. Confirm the .004 run out follows the position you marked on the blade i.e. is the blade. For the most part anyway the blade is probably .003 out and the rest of the saw .001 or so.

By the way I was speaking with the main guy at Ridge Carbide and mentioned the issue I had with the Forrest blade being out .008. He said look most likely once that blade spun up to speed it would spin true, 12" blade mind you. He didn't want to talk me out of buying his Ridge Carbide blade but wanted to be honest. I took note of that but at the same time if a company advertises .001 run out and they mock their competitors for not being that accurate as Forrest does then yeah I'm going to return a blade that's .008 out and did.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I agree with Glenn that a calibrating disk would be the thing to use to check for variances. I would also check the disk to insure it was flat, that it's thickness didn't vary by any appreciable amount around it's entire circumference and then I would never use it for anything other than checking for accuracy. I surely wouldn't use it as a disk sander and expect it to remain true!

Marc, did you only find run out in one small area on the saw blade that you measured "0.004"? Did you check the entire circumference of the blade and only found that variance in one area? Did you mark that area on the blade and test it several times for repeatability? Did that area have the variance more than once and no where else on the entire circumference?

If so, then I will disagree with Glenn. If the run out consistently occurs in the same area and nowhere else on the circumference of the blade, the problem has to be related to something that is rotating....the blade.....the arbor....the mounting nuts and washers......the arbor bearings...... It has to be something that rotates with and including the blade.

[Charles Coolidge]

Ken fyi there is a calibration plate out there made of aluminum and I saw multiple reports from people of that thing being so inaccurate as to be useless in dialing in a TS, just an fyi.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Charles...I don't doubt that at all. But once you get one that is accurate, it needs to protected and preserved.

I have a set of machinist squares. They are accurate. I have verified them. They come out of their special container when I need to use them to check something for accuracy and then they immediately go back into that container so they don't get knocked off onto the concrete floor.

One needs to check alignment tools for accuracy and then take good care of them!

Before I retired, my 3 piece set of torque wrenches were calibrated annually as was my oscilloscope, RF measurement tools and my multi-meter. Inaccurate measurements can lead one astray when troubleshooting or aligning something.

[Charles Coolidge]

Fully agree with that Ken, I'm in the accurate tool camp with Mitutoyo digital calipers, Starrett/machinist squares and rules, Mitutoyo digital mics, etc. Just purchased a EL400 DRO for my new Grizzly G4003G Gunsmith lathe. My measurement tools have their own special drawer in my tool cabinet.

A scope and RF meters you say spill the beans what type of electronics were you into? I have a BK Precision scope, signal gen, 50k count meter, etc. I scratch build tube guitar amps.

[Phil Thien]

It is always possible that problems with a blade compliment problems with an arbor. If your latest blade is out .004", then loosen the arbor, rotate the blade 180-degrees in relation to the arbor, tighten the nut, and test again. If you're still getting .004", or something close to that, then the saw is fine.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Charles,

I installed and maintained CT scanners for 34 years and MR scanners for 24 years. Before that I worked air traffic control maintenance for 6 years installing and maintaining equipment used in US Navy air traffic control centers including precision approach radar, air search radar, IFF, tacan, UHF, VHF and HF transmitters and receivers , communications control equipment and all the other navigational aids. The last 8 months of my 8 years 8 days in the Navy I ran a shop where we repaired and installed antennas on fast attack submarines.

[Marc Myers]

I just went and did my best to perform a test as Charles had suggested. I did it with the WW2 blade, and the brand new one. I put just enough tension on the nut to hold the blade tight to the washer, but tried not to overtighten so as to cause distortion. I took a reading of the high and low points on the caliper and made notes of the total amount of deflection. Then I rotated the blade 90 degrees and repeated, then 180 and 270. Here's the result from both blades.
The WW2 0* .006
90* .004
180* .012
270* .004

The new blade 0* .006
90* .005
180* .009
270* .012

So what do you think? Blade or saw??

[Phil Thien]

Whenever I check a blade on my saw, the blade is wrench-tight ready for use. Why are you only going finger-tight? Using the wrenches should not distort the blade. But finger tight really isn't (IMHO) tight enough.

Do it again, but snug the nut up with a the wrenches. Don't go crazy, but snug things up.

[Marc Myers]

Whenever I check a blade on my saw, the blade is wrench-tight ready for use. Why are you only going finger-tight? Using the wrenches should not distort the blade. But finger tight really isn't (IMHO) tight enough.

Do it again, but snug the nut up with a the wrenches. Don't go crazy, but snug things up.
I put the wrenches to it, but just went easy. I would have been OK to cut with the way I did it. Wrenches "shouldn't" distort the blade, but at this point ???????????


I'm starting to be glad I signed up for Roy Underhill's class at Lie Nielsen Toolworks this summer. I can master the ancient art of hand tooling and put anything with a plug to bed. I think Peter Follansbee had it right

[Charles Coolidge]

Marc can you post a picture of how you have your dial indicator setup to measure this?

[Marc Myers]

Its the same setup as i demonstrated in the youtube videos

[Phil Thien]

So now you're saying that the newest blade, which previously was within .004", is .007"? Or am I reading that incorrectly?

Can you check the arbor flange, like in the article I posted earlier? I think that, like the article says, anything measurable there with a plunge DI is going to be too much.

[Charles Coolidge]

Okay I watched your videos. First lets improve your test setup, set your miter slot jig aside and clamp your dial indicator to the table solid so it can't budge during testing and leave it there through all tests. You can retract the indicator and hold in place with some tape while changing blades but leave your setup clamped solidly in place. Another thing, clamp it so that you preload the dial indicator with .020 or so of travel e.g. feed it into the blade so its under tension. Then loosen the lock on the rim of your indicator and adjust it so it reads 0. Now slowly spin the blade and note the readings, typically you will get a range something like -.002 to +.002 from 0 as you turn the blade. Take some readings and report back.

On your previous numbers it makes sense except for 270 degrees which is .004 on one blade and .012 on another. If 270 degrees was a high spot on your arbor that should be consistent from blade to blade. So step one firm up your dial indicator to remove that variable.

[Mikail Khan]

I just went and did my best to perform a test as Charles had suggested. I did it with the WW2 blade, and the brand new one. I put just enough tension on the nut to hold the blade tight to the washer, but tried not to overtighten so as to cause distortion. I took a reading of the high and low points on the caliper and made notes of the total amount of deflection. Then I rotated the blade 90 degrees and repeated, then 180 and 270. Here's the result from both blades.
The WW2 0* .006
90* .004
180* .012
270* .004

The new blade 0* .006
90* .005
180* .009
270* .012

So what do you think? Blade or saw??

These results are similar to what I saw in your videos. For the WW2 as you rotate from 270 through 0 to 90 deg the dial moves 0.002. With the new blade the dial moves a max of 0.004 as you move from 0 through 90 to 180 deg.

So for half of a revolution the blade is OK. If the nut is hand tight, I cannot think of an arbor or washer defect that will give these results.

I recommend that you see how the blades cut. If you get satisfactory results put away the dial indicator and start using the saw.

MK

[Ronald Blue]

I am confused by your readings and I think Charles is getting at that too. You are saying the 0 degree point on both the WW II and new blade is .006? You have to have your indicator at "0" for the starting point. That halves your error if I am reading your result correctly. Correcting for the lack of a "0" point appears to leave one at .008 and one at .007. Find either the very lowest or very highest point and make that the 0 degree and 0 on the indicator point. It is much less confusing. You eliminate any readings on both sides of 0 that way. How does it cut with any of the blades? You might have already addressed that but not sure.

[Marc Myers]

No, what I mean is blades are round and you have to start somewhere. 0 degrees just means where I started from, then spun the blade 90 degrees w/o spinning the arbor. I had a piece of tape on the starting point and used that to gauge each 1/4 turn. The amount of runout I recorded was the total amount the needle moved from it's high spot to its low spot over one revolution. I will try Charles suggestion to clamp down the indicator and eliminate that variable.

At this point, I will wait for the results Grizz comes back to me with in regards to their dealings with Forrest. I'd be willing to do one more round of check this/check that with Griz in the hopes of solving the problem. From there, I'll either learn to love the saw and make it work as it is or ask for a new one. If they offer me a new one I'd probably go that route regretably. I agree with the comments that it's not unreasonable to expect a working tool, and not have something in the shop I'd be cursing at every time I look at it--particularly with the thought in the back of my mind that I could have swapped it out for one that's right but I was just too lazy to do it. I would kick myself pretty hard in 5 yrs if I did that.

I'll post the results of the clamp down dial test this afternoon

[Phil Thien]

I'll post the results of the clamp down dial test this afternoon

Test the flange, with the saw tilted at 45-degrees, and the DI clamped securely. That will eliminate the blades from the equation.

[dan sherman]

Marc,

Lets see if we can get this sorted out for you. first get a magnetic base for your indicator, as that will greatly help eliminate any potential errors caused by your measuring set up. A cheap one like this from Harbor freight (http://www.harborfreight.com/multipositional-magnetic-base-with-fine-adjustment-5645.html) is sufficient for this task.

The first thing you want to measure is the axial run-out of the arbor flange face. Make sure you get the indicator perpendicular to the flange face for an accurate reading. You want the reading to be under 0.001" (well under in my opinion). This measurement can tell you if the arbor shaft is bent, or if the arbor flange face was in-properly machined. Make sure you only take a measurement off the machined surface, and that the surface is really clean. This video shows how. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT2b6B8pvTs


The second thing you want to do is check for axial bearing slop, use the same set up as above, and gently push and pull on the arbor parallel to it's axis. You again want a reading of under 0.001", and as before 0 is the goal.


now check for radial run-out on the side of the arbor flange. This isn't overly important, but if it's really far out, it will lead to vibrations. This video shows radial run-out being checked on a lathe. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg0NtmJjfkI

Finally check for radial bearing slop. set the indicator up the same way you did for the radial run-out. hold the arbor so that it can't rotate, and then gently push it side to side.


if all these measurements are good, you are left with one of the following things.
1.) a bur some place that needs to be filed off.
2.) a crap washer that's causing arbor shaft to flex under tension
3.) a crap nut that's causing arbor shaft to flex under tension

while not exactly related to a saw these couple videos so a machinist fixing the exact same issue with a tool bit grinder. about 4 minutes into the second video you will see what i mean about a bad nut.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xRy8wGfcIk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDpg-rEBSgs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkUho_QCnDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx-a5utUr64

[dan sherman]

I forgot to add that when you are tightening a saw blade down on a known good arbor, you can really tighten it. You can't hurt the blade by over tightening, all you can do is make it a pain to get off later.

[Marc Myers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX222x2ZmGg&feature=youtu.be

I appreciate all the suggestions and different test to figure this out. It's a lot to take in coming from different people, but I'm doing my best to try everything. Here is a new video I took just now. I checked the flange with a magnetic base dial indicator, and clamped the bejesus out of my other indicator before showing you what is going on with the blade. I marked all the points of the first check and got a runout reading. Then left the arbor alone and spun the blade 180* and got a reading nearly twice that of the first test.

Take a look and tell me if this rules anything out, or points to a new test you think I should check.

[Charles Coolidge]

Much improved test setup, the arbor flange looks pretty good though it was hard to see.You had the blade dialed in to +0 to -.003 not bad. That's close to my best of +.001 to -.001 for both my Ridge Carbide and Freud you are only .001 off that. Remember if you set '0' on your dial at the center of the run out range of .003 your blade would measure +.0015 to -.0015 vs my best +.0010 to -.0010

You rotated the blade and then got what looked to be about +.002 to -.003 again not bad, not great but not bad. I can distort my blades just by how tight I tighten the arbor nut and you are close enough now that just that can throw measurements off from test to test. There's a big difference between .012 out and .003 out. That Forrest blade I returned was quite sensitive to how tight the nut was measurement wise. Though that thing was so far out you could set a Starrett rule across it sitting on the workbench and see the crown on one side and dish on the other that blade was messed up.

[Marc Myers]

Certainly better. Do you think it is the saw or the blade? I did my best on the flange test, the light in my shop isn't great for home movies. What is your thought on the different result by spinning the blade and not the arbor? The deflection was different doing that. -.004 to +.003

So the 1M question, 1.new blade 2. new saw 3. live with it

Edit...after I posted the video I went back to the shop and messed with it some more. I pretty much dialed it in by tightening the nut, getting a reading, spin the blade an inch, repeat. I did this over one revolution, then went back to the spot of least runout and tweaked some more in even smaller than 1 inch spins, keeping the arbor stationary throughout this entire test. I found a sweet spot where the runout is .002 to .003

I don't know if this means the arbor or blade, but I could live with this runout. My thought is that I should be able to put a blade on and not have to line it up in the perfect spot in relation to the arbor. I can still have .010 or more if I don't have all the planets in a row so to speak. Clearly there is an issue somewhere, I'd like to hope that Griz can come up with a new WW2 blade for me to check. I don't know where 5 years will bring me, but I don't want to have to be so perfect every time I pop on a blade or go through all this should I replace a blade. I'd really kick myself in 5 yrs if this is the case and I didn't swap out the saw while I had the chance. What to do what to do??

[Phil Thien]

So the 1M question, 1.new blade 2. new saw 3. live with it

It is fine. Your arbor flange isn't perfectly true, and neither is that blade. None of them are perfect.

But what you've got is very close. It is very good. You should get excellent results from your saw.

No need to obsess further.

[Charles Coolidge]

I looked at the video again, your arbor measures at most a few tenths that's quite good. My saw that cost nearly $800 more measures 2 tenths. I don't see anything wrong with your saw, the variance follows the blade hence its the blade imo. +- .0015 I'd take that any day, keep in mind centrifugal force when spun at speed will reduce that further. Basically that's more accurate than you can feed wood through the saw e.g. you can't maintain a consistent feed rate and hand pressure to stay within .0015 even though the saw is capable of it. Line up the blade for minimum run out, tighten the nut and move on with setting up your saw and using it. Blade parallel to the miter slot and fence spend time getting those right. I use the A-LINE-IT jig I got at Woodcraft, its spring loaded to fit tightly in your miter slot yet still slide. Align the blade parallel to the miter slot using A-LINE-IT then flip it around using the same miter slot to align the fence, easy peasy.