First time doing Built-ins/casework - questions

[Matt Day]

Other than building shop cabinets, this mudroom built in project will be my first so I have a number of questions. If there are any general casework tutorials on the net you know of that would help with some/most of the questions please let me know.

Here's the basic design we've come up with. We've done a lot of planning as far as what will go where and what our storage needs are. There will mainly be open shelving and cubbies for baskets - no doors. To the left will be mail slots and a mini desk for keys, mail, bags. The center will be a bench. Exact sizes and dimensions are not final as they depend on the baskets we go with. And I'll be painting the room prior to installing the cabinets, probably a green or orange (I don't choose colors :-) ). I'd like to have this project completed in the next 2 months, since my wife is pregnant and is due in 20 weeks, it will be harder and harder for her to chase around our 1 year old.

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Here are my questions:

1) My wife is on the fence about not having backs on the casework so the color of the wall comes through. My first thought was that it's possible of course, but a rabetted back is great for squaring up the box. Thoughts?

2) I'm assuming the walls are not square the floor is not level. Should I put everything on a base that I'll shim to level similar to kitchen lowers? This is the way I did my shop cabs, but I would prefer to have these on the ground since there will probably be some boot/shoe storage on the bottom. Any suggestions on this? (FYI - I'll be making a separate shoe storage in another location later)

3) Materials. This is probably the biggest question mark right now. The woodworker in me is leaning toward prefinished plywood, but apparently is very popular to have white cabinets now.
3a) If we go with white, I think I'd choose to use mdf. It's cheap and stable and I don't mind the weight since I'll be making this built in in manageable modules. Can I get full sheets of primed mdf? The cost to go to plywood would be about twice as much or more, so I'm not sure it would be worth it. I'm not setup to spray right now because of the cold weather, so it would be painted by hand.
3b) If we go with prefinished hardwood plywood, I should simply install edge banding on the edges right?

Thanks for your input!

[Patrick McCarthy]

Matt, just a weekend warrior here, so take it with a grain or two of salt.

1. I would go prefinished and do prefinished backs. In the future if you try to paint the wall inside the cubbies you will only frustrate yourself. There is already plenty of open wall for color pop.

2. I would do a base like the kitchen lowers. I would also make it the toe kick.

3. I am a big fan of prefinished ply. I would suggest hardwood, shop cut, trim strips rather than iron on edge banding. Also, I would try to keep most of the horizontal lines at same elevations and apply trim strips like face framing.

just my thoughts, for whatever it is worth. Best regards, Patrick

[John A langley]

Prefinished plywood would be good, edge banding would be good if you can get it prefinished. I agree with using a toe kick 4 inches tall. You want to use 2 inch fillers between the walls and the cabinets, also make the shelves adjustable

[Sam Murdoch]

I pretty much agree with Patrick and John. Raising the base up 2 to 4" is a good move especially as this is an entry. No sense in inviting the dirt in directly. You could build a 2x4 base, add a finished painted front and set the cabinets directly on top of that with a 3/4" or so overhang. No need for a toe base recess like in a kitchen.

That takes care of scribing to the floor. Like John writes - plan on some scribe verts on the two outside walls too. This will make your install easy, working off a center line. Then scribe (or no scribe - even better if they are just straight boards) the 1-1/2" to 3" boards on the outside as needed. These can match the scale of the top trim band and will give the whole unit more of a finished look. These can be pre fitted to the cabinet sides using biscuits or dominos - scribe then pop on with glue, or attached with trim nails or screws through the face. The holes can be filled for painting. Some folks will say use pocket screws but I avoid those - no real good way to hide those holes.

I would not use MDF for the boxes - especially as this is a "mudroom" and there will be kids involved. You could use MDF for the backs and paint them the wall colors - that would look great - or use a paintable plywood. As for the boxes themselves - pre fin ply is good but you might be better off using just a good cabinet grade ply and finishing it yourself. Now 98% of the time if I build plywood cabinetry it is with prefinished material. Good grade prefinished plywood typically has a much more durable finish than can be applied by non professionals. I spend the money and get a great finish for much less effort. In this case however I suggest doing your own finish because I think you will be able to maintain it better over the years if you know exactly how it was finished. There is no doubt that these cabinets will get used hard and you will want to spruce them up after a while especially as they will be in your entry way. Sure would be easy to lightly sand and apply another coat of urethane when the time comes or even change the color if you go with all painted. I know you intend to use baskets but trust me, there will be some wear and tear that will be easier to maintain if you know the process. Try to find some mats or liners for the shelves, especially for the boot/shoe storage and that will add years to the good looks.

Finally - I would recommend a solid wood edge rather than edge banding, again for durability and future upkeep. 1/2" to 3/4" thick x 7/8" tall. The thickness makes it easy to mill and apply with simple butt joints with glue and face nails (though if you can use biscuits or dominos that would be excellent). The 7/8" height is again for ease of construction - you need only concern yourself with flushing the top edge to the plywood, not both edges. For the small cubbies on the left edge banding would be fine but solid would be best. All this IMHO.


EDIT - As I wrote above I was thinking about how I usually build face frames and so my suggestion that pocket screws don't cover well. For me who usually will flush all the verts to the inside face of the plywood sides this is true. However if your scribe verts are applied in a T fashion - overlay both faces of the ply. - rather than in my L version, pocket screws are an easy and secure method that, depending on the amount of overlay, will hardly show or can easily be covered. Also, I will normally set my shelves and other horizontals with the solid wood edges flush or slightly behind (about 1/8") the face of the verticals. If you use the T style of face frames though it would be easier to set the shelves fully behind the verticals by at least an 1/8". Of course all this is subjective and others will offer other ideas. No right or wrong here - just what works best for you.

[Matt Day]

Awesome guys, thanks for all the thoughtful replies so far, especially to Sam for taking the time to write all that out. So great comments - adding a base, scribing filler pieces, including a back panel, etc. I will read through the posts a fee more times tomorrow but I'm heading out to buy paint for the new nursery!

I have a feeling we're going to end up going with white as the color.

I'm not too worried about water and moisture with this project for a couple reasons. I will be using boot trays, and there won't be any coat hooks or anything in the middle of it so water isn't going to be dripping over it.

If water isn't an issue would mdf be okay? If not, what exactly would be considered a paintable plywood? Birch, poplar? I'd like to keep the cost down but don't want to use plywood that will potato chip either. And can I get anything pre primed for paint? That would save me a bunch of labor.

[Andrew Joiner]

Matt,
To make it real simple and deal with wet boots. You could eliminate the bottom panels. If your floors are fairly level nail on glides would work. If not you could use these:


http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41YBjLbTMML.jpg

[Stephen Cherry]

You might want to check this maple plywood at the Home Depot:

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Unbranded-3-4-in-x-4-ft-x-8-ft-HD-Maple-Plywood-263012/203600599?N=c7r1#

which, I guess, is this:

http://purebondplywood.com/TheHomeDepot

I've seen it in the store near me, and for 42 dollars a sheet, it does not look bad at all. Of course, everyone will have their expectations of what plywood should be, and how much it should cost, but to me this looks like a nice value.

[Andy kerra]

I built out custom cabinets in a library the other year and then am doing a similar setup to you in the mud room right now. My wife is insistent on white. In both cases I used 3/4 maple or both ply from Home Depot or lowes and painted it using a sprayer and gloss paint. They look great; and in the mistook the finish match some of the therma wrap cabinets already there.

I did backs on the cubbys, it gives a uniform look for paint, adds stability and makes hanging them easier. It's just 1/4" ply.

I have built plenty with mdf but I much prefer working with ply. Also I find mdf more prone to scratch and dent and i would be a little concerned as to moisture exposure in a mud room.

I would build a base to level, that was my process in he library and it worked well.

Good luck

[Matt Day]

Andrew: I thought about not having a bottom panel but I was kind of worried about it structurally with out it. I assume you mean I could use some kind of nail on glide for a shim if needed?

Stephen: have you used that ply before? The plywood I've used from there (don't recall the manufacturer right now but might have been Sandply since they don't seem to stock Purebond at the one I usually go to) was crap. After ripping a sheet down I had a 2'x8' board that had about a 3" bow in it. That might have happened after sitting for a day or two, but I simply don't have the consecutive time in the shop to go from sheet good to carcass in one day.

[Stephen Cherry]

Stephen: have you used that ply before? The plywood I've used from there (don't recall the manufacturer right now but might have been Sandply since they don't seem to stock Purebond at the one I usually go to) was crap. After ripping a sheet down I had a 2'x8' board that had about a 3" bow in it. That might have happened after sitting for a day or two, but I simply don't have the consecutive time in the shop to go from sheet good to carcass in one day.

Matt- I have used the birch purebond plywood from HD, and I thought it was a good value- did not do any funny twists. I've seen the maple, and for 42 dollars, it looks pretty good. The web does not say purebond, but the domestic plywood in the stores near me is purebond.

That said, I've seen cherry purebond in the depot, and it looked like the worst plywood I've ever seen in my life. So it may be worth it to check the inventory in the stores near you, see which one has the domestic maple, and take a look to see if it would meet your needs.

[Matt Meiser]

MDF and boot/shoe storage are not compatible, but even wood isn't going to hold up great. Why not leave out the bottom shelves and allow those items to sit right on the floor? You could look at adjustable legs to level off the base or cut legs to a particular position. You'll need some fillers at the sides you can scribe to the walls.

I say material choice will be up to your wife if you don't get to choose colors---if she wants white, go painted. If she wants wood then use PF ply. You could do Melamine for white but it's a bear to work with and not very repairable--the PF ply won't be as repairable as painted either. One advantage op painted is that you can use cheaper sheet goods. I just used some Aruco Ply for a painted project and I'd consider that agin. Band all the front edges with a generous hardwood strip from stuff that would normally be rejected for furniture--wormy soft maple, off color cherry, etc. you can even mix and match woods of similar grain and use up some offcuts.

Also if you paint you can be a little more lax in precision--caulk can hide tear out, imperfect scribing to the walls, etc. not that you don't want to do good work, but mistakes are less catastrophic.

If you paint, use a good paint. I'm very fond of Sherwin Williams ProClassic 100% acrylic after a couple recent projects.

[Peter Quinn]

My thought reiterate much of what was said above. Use backs, paint them the wall color, put them in a rabbit, they have that modern backless look but much stronger cabs and easier to hang. Ever try to hang big cabs with no backs? Major PIA to hide brackets for this, much easier to use painted backs. I love prefinished maple ply....for closed boxes with doors, have never used it for open shelving, very very generic looking. But I have used it for paint grade projects! Scuff sand it, coat of bonding primer or shellac, makes a very good flat sealed durable panel. Its a pretty expensive way to get there, but when you figure in the time to finish, its not so bad. I don't like MDF. Pain to paint, not nice to work with, hates even a little bit of moisture, edges crumble, hates screws. The only thing it has going for it IMO is its cheap and relatively flat when fresh. I would prefer C-2 or shop grade plywood for paint grade. Lighter, stronger, easier to work IME.

I would definitely get the boxes off the ground, at least to match the base molding in the room. Nobody over 4' tall wants to bend all the way to the floor to get to the bottom shelf, and it looks odd to have cabs that close to the ground. I would consider making the bench more of an actual bench with legs, 18" +/- seat height, leave room there for the boots and shoes. You could add cleats to the back wall and adjacent cabs to hold the seat, maybe one leg in the middle, expose the floor, possibly make the bench shallower or deeper than the rest of the run to break up the run, looks more like custom work, less like long run of IKEA patched together. Can still be very modern. Another option is to make the bench seat 26" or so deep, put cubbies behind it, open exposed floor under it, painted cabs, hardwood bench seat for the exposed part. Its a bit more work/$$$ but really pops, gives you a place to put on/remove shoes, lots of storage above. Step back and consider the whole run, as drawn it lacks a pleasing symmetry. Perhaps a center bench seat, 28" depth, cubbies above/behind seat leaving some access for electrical panel, flanked on each side by chest height storage shelving? Just thinking out loud, feel completely free to ignore my rambling, no offense meant in the criticisms.

Here's an example of the visual ​I'm describing, something like this could be modified to suit your style. http://www.houzz.com/photos/709570/Interior-Exterior-Remodel-traditional-laundry-room-minneapolis

[Sam Murdoch]

I like what Peter has written and suggested above. I agree with him about MDF. Not a fan and certainly not inclined to use it as a cabinet construction material. Very fine for door panels and even for some trim details but I think in the long run it is an expensive material for box construction -if you care about the boxes.

The photo that he links to and the idea of keeping it completely open to the floor is a good idea too. You could do the center as in the photo but then add some cubbies as flankers on each end. Though Matt we are now ignoring your comment " We've done a lot of planning as far as what will go where and what our storage needs are." :) I know you know we mean well.

[Andrew Joiner]

Andrew: I thought about not having a bottom panel but I was kind of worried about it structurally with out it. I assume you mean I could use some kind of nail on glide for a shim if needed?

.

I would use nail on glides for level floors. If you need to shim them a little use washers. For really out of level floors the levelers pictured work good. You can make your own levelers from t-nuts and plasti-dipped bolts if you want them less visible.

[Matt Day]

Peter - No offense taken at all, I appreciate your opinion and suggestions. My engineer/woodworker brain wants the symmetry that is currently lacking, but my wife is insistent that it is not symmetrical and she's the boss!

And I must have misunderstood, but turns out we won't have any shoe or boot storage under the bench. I don't think we've assigned that space to anything yet, but it won't be wet for sure.

I'll make the base line up with the baseboard in the room - good suggestion.

I like the idea of using some hardwood for the bench though and I'll have to consider that, and maybe some hardwood next to the mail slots on the left.

I'm leaning toward using Purebond plywood and painting right now, so I'll do some research on priming/painting plywood.

[Matt Meiser]

Matt, I just did some of that myself. Sherwin Williams recommended their Wall and Wood Primer followed by the ProClassic I mentioned above. I sprayed with my HVLP with the biggest needle/nozzle set. I thinned with water 10% and it sprayed like a dream. If you can't spray it, I'd roll it to get the best possible finish. The primer raised the grain some but sanded very easily with 240 grit foam pads and left a smooth surface for the paint.

[Matt Day]

Thanks Matt! I'll have to roll/brush it since I'm not setup to spray when it's this cold out.

[Lee Reep]

Before buying plywood at Home Depot, you might want to check with a local lumberyard or a wood specialty store if you have one. I bought 3/4" maple ply from a local shop that also does a lot of custom moulding. Everything they carry is first rate. This plywood was $52 per sheet and was a lot nicer than my shop needed. I was going to use birch ply but it was about the same price. Often you will find ply that has a decent side, and a "serviceable" side. That was the case with the plywood I looked at at Home Depot. The plywood I bought at the wood store looked so good on the lesser side that I had to be careful when I was setting up dado and rabbet cuts to make sure I was doing them on the right side.

[Matt Day]

Thanks Lee for that advice Lee. Lowest price I found around here for birch ply was $58/sheet and that was for overseas material. I'll make sure to double check before I purchase though.

Anyone from NEO have any plywood source recommendations?

[John Huds0n]

If your going paint grade, I would use MDO

Around here, I can get premium 3/4" MDO for $55 to $60 a sheet (both sides) and it really is a joy to work with compared to shop ply. Well worth the extra money

If you can't locate a source, I know Home Depot has been known to special order it. Check it out, you won't be sorry

[Prashun Patel]

I did this about 2 years ago:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?182726-Attaching-faceframes-to-a-built-in&highlight=mud+room

It was cherry veneered plywood with solid cherry face frames. I finished it with Waterlox. White is the fashion now and it'll be cheaper than hardwood. Couple things, though:

I underestimated how much abuse this takes. If shoes are going anywhere near it, plan on something that's extremely durable or repairable. Painted WOOD meets this criteria, varnished hardwood does too. Mdf not so much. Even the cherry ply (and I didn't skimp on the quality) takes a bunch of dings.

If I could do it again, I would use a solid wood slab or panel for the deck/desk (in your case).

Also, remember to plan for lighting and if you can incorporate electrical into your cubbies, cell phones might like to be charged there too.

While I used 3/4" cherry ply for case sides and seat, I used BORG 1/4" birch ply for the back. If you are painting it white, you can consider a beadboard back for texture.