This is a Pretty Serious Saw

[David Weaver]

Some of you guys might remember about a year ago when I mentioned that I thought the orientation of pulling a saw made for a handicap on japanese rip saws.

And at the time, I also said that I'd welcome any recommendation for an inexpensive disposable rip saw that could hang with a thumbhole rip or any other relatively common western rip saw.

Well, I never did find a disposable rip saw that could, and I have several of the disposable types (gyochuko and Z), but out of that discussion did come the opportunity to try a "real" japanese rip saw that is intended to be used on hardwoods. It came in the mail this morning.

Wish I was in sawing shape right now! (I'm sure i'll still be able to get a good feel for it - it is not the normal flimsy kind of saw that you think of when you get a kataba or something like that from gyochuko - it's much bigger, much more rigid and much thicker).

More to come as I get to try it out.

278962278963278964

[Roy Lindberry]

Looks like it has a progressive pitch, am I right?

[Chris Griggs]

Friggin' sweet!

[David Weaver]

Looks like it has a progressive pitch, am I right?

Yeah, progressive pitch, heavy plate, less hook than the disposable saws intended for softwood and a proper handle so as to generate some power without inducing arthritis.

[george wilson]

I didn't think you wanted one of those type saws. Or,is this a different type saw from the ones I have alerted you to on Ebay?

[Sean Hughto]

Now your saw is super beautiful and seriously specialized, but I have this Ryoba:
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/store/dept/TSJ/item/MS-JS310.XX
and always thought it was a great ripper. For what it's worth.

[David Weaver]

This is definitely a "try" situation and not a buy, it's a custom saw that belongs to the sender. If I had unlimited money, I'd inquire about finding if the sawmaker would be willing to custom make something similar, but unfortunately, I don't have unlimited money.

I do have a big ryoba and a long kataba, they both fare pretty weak ripping long boards, but they're nice for ripping short pieces that are set up in a vise. this thing is several orders of magnitude bigger and has teeth similar in size to a western rip saw and a plate about as thick.

[Alan Caro]

David Weaver,

Your new saws are indeed beautiful objects. What I would like to understand is the rationale for draw-cut saws. I would think that pushing is a more efficient application of force and when force is more easily applied, so it is to the same degree easier to control. As the front portion is not toothed, it appears it acts as a follow guide to keep the path straight, but that and the angle of the handle also shows that cuts are made with the relative angle similar to a push-cut saw.

I can understand draw-cut saws as small back saws for very accurate straight, thin cuts, but seems somewhat counter-intuitive for ripping. Since Japanese wood-working tools and blades - swords and knives- are highly refined over centuries and of wonderful design, I must be missing something. The only rationale I can think of is that the blades could be thinner as drawing will not have as much potential to force the blade into a curve as pushing. What is very sensible is the progressive pitch.

Alan Caro

[Sean Hughto]

I'm no expert in Japanese techniques, but I am generally aware that they use very different postures, benches and setups in their sawing and planning. Was your frustration ripping when you were doing it the Japanese way, or when trying to use the saw in a Western sort of context - sawbench etc.?

[David Weaver]

There were a couple of things that bothered me, and I was using the saws standing on the boards as most serious ripping is done on longer boards (with japanese saws):
1) the saws that I have have way too much hook for hardwoods when you have the orientation of ripping "back into the straws"
2) the handles are the straight handles like the ryoba, i might have mild arthritis, but even if i didn't, the grip required on a saw like that leaves sore hands
3) the saws just don't have the heft to work properly in that fairly violent orientation where you're standing over the cut, pulling back into the straws with force, etc

And most importantly, on a long rip, a western rip saw is a very usable saw if you get used to ripping. you can rip for 10 minutes, and take a break, and do it more if you're willing to pace yourself with a rhythm you can tolerate.

With the western saw, you're clipping the straws off and pushing them out. Your bodyweight is naturally working in the direction of the saws, and if you get tired, you can sit on a board with the saw line going right down your crotch and saw with both hands in a sitting position (cutting towards you) very easily.

But that experience was not with this saw. The fact that immediately, it feels like it was intended for heavier work and it feels like it will pretty much be able to take anything you can physically put into it should make a big difference. I can't remember what a typical time is for me with 8/4 cherry and a western saw, but it's something like a foot a minute, and much faster with 4/4 or 5/4.

This is all pretty esoteric, I know most people don't like to rip by hand, but I think it's fantastic.

[Jonathan McCullough]

I'm curious to see what you think of it, especially what handle angle seems to work out best; it would appear that you could vary it with that saw. Does seem like you could get more work done with 28 inches though. Who or what is SRC?

[David Weaver]

David Weaver,

Your new saws are indeed beautiful objects. What I would like to understand is the rationale for draw-cut saws. I would think that pushing is a more efficient application of force and when force is more easily applied, so it is to the same degree easier to control. As the front portion is not toothed, it appears it acts as a follow guide to keep the path straight, but that and the angle of the handle also shows that cuts are made with the relative angle similar to a push-cut saw.

I can understand draw-cut saws as small back saws for very accurate straight, thin cuts, but seems somewhat counter-intuitive for ripping. Since Japanese wood-working tools and blades - swords and knives- are highly refined over centuries and of wonderful design, I must be missing something. The only rationale I can think of is that the blades could be thinner as drawing will not have as much potential to force the blade into a curve as pushing. What is very sensible is the progressive pitch.

Alan Caro

Every old US-made saw I've used is progressive pitch if the teeth are of any substantial size (speaking of rip saws, I suppose). I probably answered most of the rest to Sean, about the orientation and use of body weight. But also for practical purposes, price. I have no clue how much this saw costs, but I'm sure it was a lot. My average cost for a thumbhole rip out of 10 of them has probably been about $35. I can find a lot of japanese saws that are disposable that cost more than that and don't rip much of anything well.

I think the thoughts about thin saws, etc, are because all that's been made available to us over here are fairly thin saws of light weight. Joinery saws, etc, but there are no common low priced machine made heavy rip saws like this. Since this is a custom saw that belongs to someone else (and not mine), it's certainly not an indication that saws like this will be available, either. I have no clue how you'd go about getting a saw like this made (and to me, going through a dealer for a saw that is probably already close to four figures - maybe it is four figures, I don't know - but it isn't something I have any interest in doing through a dealer).

This is not like any of the delicate thin saws, though, it's intended for power. I understand japanese skilled sawyers can use these pretty swiftly through hardwoods.

[David Weaver]

I'm curious to see what you think of it, especially what handle angle seems to work out best; it would appear that you could vary it with that saw. Does seem like you could get more work done with 28 inches though. Who or what is SRC?

Not sure (about the speed), nor the hardness. I'm not going to file it. If it was my saw, I'd have no reservations of filing it, because it's rip, but I won't use it enough to find out. I do think it's a shame saws like this aren't made in any quantity.

If I was betting at lloyds without knowing anything, just from having picked it up and noting its rigidity, I'd put the over under at 52-55 hardness. Just taking it out of the case makes it sing.

The tooth line of this saw is around 15 inches long, which is probably as long as the significant power part of a stroke with a western rip saw.

[Pat Barry]

Hi David, what actually holds the handle on there. I don't see any mechanical fasteners in the pictures. Is it just friction?

[Brian Holcombe]

I recently bought a mitsukawa ryoba in white steel, I find it very intuitive to rip with. I set them upright in the tail vise and pull toward myself and down.

awesome saw, I'm interested in knowing more details.

[Winton Applegate]

I too am no expert and appreciate a western saw for the harder stuff.
I did spend a fair amount of time using the Japanese rip pull saws on first walnut and then purple heart and bubinga. I had a hard time finding a really agressive rip. I finally had to file one.
Then I unleshed her . . .
RESAWING no less and up to five feet long or so. Longer than that without a pit gets pretty silly.

Before I go on let me say :

I LOVE MY LAGUNA BAND SAW ( the fore mentioned hand sawing brought it all home to me with full fidelity in 3 D just how nice a band saw is for resawing).

Anyway to the questions :
Why pull when you can push ?
For medium hard and softer wood pulling allows the use of a much thinner blade (the really high dollar saws are, the cheepys tend to be thicker). Thinner takes less horse power.

Don't under estimate the muscles being used to pull the saw. Let's compare :

Pulling


Latissimus (apes swing from trees with these and rowers propel boats with them. One woman I can name has rowed across all the great oceans of the world with these muscles for instance San Francisco to Hawaii in 100 days on a three leg crossing of the Pacific. No joke I followed her progress and listened to her sat. phone transmissions for years).
Biceps (think Arnold)(when he lifts his enemy clear off his feet and tosses him into the spinning blades of the helicopter. Oh he must have done that at least once in all those battles .)
Spinal erectors (Power lifting any one ?)



Pushing


Pectorals (much smaller than Lats. Looks good for the magazine photo ops. Women like to build the size of these for obvious reasons . . . other than that . . . OK boxers hit with them but not for 16 hours a day like my rower person).
Triceps (smaller and weaker than the Bi.s Good for getting out of your chair or off the couch and for using crutches).
Abdominals (when was the last time you saw yours ? I think mine left town some time in the nineties and they don't call, they don't write . . .)(Good for barfing, pulling kites out of trees but not for pulling your self up by your own boot straps, again popular during magazine photo shoots and for selling exercise equipment. No body knows exactly why )(exactly).



Soooo pushing we are using little puny man all show and no go muscles.
Pulling we are using great ape transport, Berserker Arnold saves civilized world once again, boot strap pulling, world ocean going . . . Japanese temple building . . .


MUSCLES !


Here is my refiled to rip from the combo cross cut / angle cut stock filing. Too lazy to get off the couch and look up the proper term but I have it in my notes.
Frightening isn't it ?
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/roc%20cuts%20wood/TheToothMeister.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/roc%20cuts%20wood/TheToothMeister.jpg.html)


And a link for my rower. Yah, she's hot in so many ways. Don't let her get a hold of you though she's got those well developed saw pulling, Arnold muscles. Probably snap you like a twig with out trying. The looks are just to lure you in for the kill.

Rower (http://www.rozsavage.com/adventure/)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Glam_zps9832a28e.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Glam_zps9832a28e.jpg.html)

[David Weaver]

Hi David, what actually holds the handle on there. I don't see any mechanical fasteners in the pictures. Is it just friction?

I think it's both friction and angle, but looking at it, i'm not sure. I can only say it's on there tightly. Hope it stays that way!

(no fasteners on it, you're right).

[Kees Heiden]

Big difference between push and pull saws is using your weight instead of your muscles. Muscles fatique quickly, and being able to work without a lot of muscle power is "better".

When rockclimbing overhanging walls, I climb as much as possible with my arms totally straight, so I am hanging on the tendons and don't need to contract the muscles all the time. The rest is pushing with the legs and turning and twisting with the body to reach higher. That makes it possible to climb more then one route a day.

[Tony Shea]

I somewhat agree with your theory Winton but there are certainly some issues with it. A rower pulling the oars is done mostly with their leg muscles which is a different position entirely than how most of us go about using a Japanese pull saw, especially at the bench.

But I do agree in that a western saw is using some of the smaller muscles opposed to a Japanese saw using the larger bicep muscles in the arm. But that is all relative to the position your in and how you use the rest of your body. I personally have better luck using a western style saw when ripping anything but a lot has to do with the handle and the fact that my line isn't completely erased by the saw dust coming out of the front side of the kerf. The fuzz created by the pull teeth is also an issue when trying to keep an eye on the line.

For the most part I do agree with you Winton but in practise there are some exceptions to the theory behind Japanese pull saws.

[george wilson]

Never mind your saws. I want to see her leg muscles!!

[Pat Barry]

Big difference between push and pull saws is using your weight instead of your muscles. Muscles fatique quickly, and being able to work without a lot of muscle power is "better".

When rockclimbing overhanging walls, I climb as much as possible with my arms totally straight, so I am hanging on the tendons and don't need to contract the muscles all the time. The rest is pushing with the legs and turning and twisting with the body to reach higher. That makes it possible to climb more then one route a day.
Hey Kees, I know nothing of rock climbing technique, but I do watch tv, and a show I watched last fall was American Ninja Warrior competition. The announcers made a point of evaluating technique and they always said that the hanging and climbing should be done with bent arms. They always pointed out that when the competitors had straight arms they were basically done. Not sure why this is so, but I think it has to do with the extra efforts required to pull up for the next move.

[David Weaver]

I just ripped a foot of cherry 8/4 scrap with it. It rips beautifully (not a foot long piece, but a foot's worth of a 5 foot board)

If you prop whatever you're ripping up about a foot and a half off the floor on an incline, the saw combined with the sawing position saws right across the tops of the grain.

It is clear that it was made specifically for what I'm doing - it has that "filing" feel going through the wood, as if it's perfectly engaged and cutting at an ideal rate. Just out of curiosity, I pulled out my disposables again to try for feel and they would not rip the cherry in the same orientation, they just chattered and struggled to stay in the cut.

I don't think it's out of the question that I could rip as fast with this saw as I can with a 5 point disston saw, and the effort level is no greater. I'll report back after I've used it a while, because workholding and advancing the wood is something I have to work on. It's a special saw, though.

I had thoughts yesterday of mauling an old rip saw into this shape and filing the teeth more aggressive, but the tang on this saw is very heavy and a western saw plate won't translate directly.

In fact, I don't know about all of the attributes of this saw - the fact that it is a heavy plate, etc, and the whole plate is hardened, and the tang flares out to heavier and wider - maybe it's something that could only be custom made. From the position you stand in, the sore shoulders, etc, would never occur as they may if you're standing over a saw bench all day. I would compare the level of effort to what it's like to saw with a western saw in the sitting position, which is not very much.

[Winton Applegate]

Kees, and Tony,

Ha, ha, ha!
My post was almost as much for fun and humor as it is for serious discussion.
I agree with the fibers and saw dust getting in the way. If I were to get serious I could argue the ergonomics. Time and more espresso will proof the latter.

I certainly appreciate a Western saw both back saw and panel saw.
My delicate, arm chair sittin' sensibilities and my appreciation for SHARP tools sure lean toward the Japanese saws though.

It is an evil internal struggle I must learn to cope with alone. Dare I mention my dear , dear, coworker Dr. Jekyll. Ahhh some of the espressos we enjoyed together. Wooooof ! There was a certain kick to them that I just can not reproduce on my own. I certainly miss our conversations.

I do thank you both/all for your concern.

[Winton Applegate]

George,

Careful there, we approach a precipice we may not be able to belay out of. Sorry all for the "rat hole". Worthy topic in general though.

A BRAVE AND SINGULAR PERSON IS SHE.

You are a leg man ! Me to. They don't build 'em like they used to do they !
Too much car drivin' and sitting; not enough what ever it was that built the better article.
Probably could say the same for men but I haven't checked the data.

Interesting thing. I am entirely serious in the following:
When she reached Hawaii and was being interviewed the following day by the press she was asked what her plans were now that she could take a rest from so much exercise and physical work.
Her response :
Well first I want to hit the gym and then the beach.
The reporter asked "Why the gym??
Her response : My glutes all but disappear after months of rowing and I look funny.

What a constitution.

[Roderick Gentry]

Hey Kees, I know nothing of rock climbing technique, but I do watch tv, and a show I watched last fall was American Ninja Warrior competition. The announcers made a point of evaluating technique and they always said that the hanging and climbing should be done with bent arms. They always pointed out that when the competitors had straight arms they were basically done. Not sure why this is so, but I think it has to do with the extra efforts required to pull up for the next move.

You can't climb without bending something, but Kees is basically right. Non-climbers are normally all about the bent arms, for the first few feet, then they are done. So if these folks on the impressively named show were fairy tale climbers on some show with know-nothing hosts, they would be pumping the arms, then when they came up short they would do the hang of shame. Flip it around, and ask yourself if they went to straight arms for a rest, maybe they should have been there all along. :) Of course the real key is footwork and using the legs, if you can.

The are some radical techniques for waterfall ice, and off-wifth cracks that take the straight arm thing to extremes, but they took over a century to dream up, so it takes a while. Climbers will even hang from a straight leg when they can. That said, great climbers are pump machines, they still can crank off hundreds of pull up, even one arm ones, so eventually gravity will demand a crank.

[Kees Heiden]

This has nothing to do with sawing or Davids's saw anymore. I just want to show off some pictures of my daughter. Lots of stretched arms as you can see.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/Slovenie248_zpse6328709.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/Slovenie248_zpse6328709.jpg.html)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/Slovenie249_zpsc3dfe7ad.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/Slovenie249_zpsc3dfe7ad.jpg.html)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/Slovenie250_zpscfceccfa.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/Slovenie250_zpscfceccfa.jpg.html)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/Slovenie251_zpse16535d3.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/Slovenie251_zpse16535d3.jpg.html)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/Slovenie252_zps86e334e0.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/Slovenie252_zps86e334e0.jpg.html)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/Slovenie253_zps8d737c44.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/Slovenie253_zps8d737c44.jpg.html)

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll266/Kees2351/Slovenie254_zps68d6d7f3.jpg (http://s290.photobucket.com/user/Kees2351/media/Slovenie254_zps68d6d7f3.jpg.html)

[Jim Koepke]

From reading about different cultures the explanation for the Japanese pulling tools opposed to the western pushing tools seems best explained by religious beliefs.

Some religious sects teach that all things have a spirit. This leads to the belief of when something is cut, part of its spirit is being removed. Pulling the cutting implement toward one's self is said to pull the fleeing spirit into the worker.

Another way to be one with one's work.

Likely as good as, "we have always done it this way. Why should we change now?"

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

When I first took up REAL and SERIOUS (but not real serious )woodworking I made these Japanese style low saw horses.
In preparation for finding and buying a rip saw like David is generously demonstrating.
I found none.
! ! ! !
crap

In any case I made these as well as I possibly could at the time. Kind of a life time shrine to the Shokunin that have come before.

I was committed to the style of work so I used the bubinga. What did I know then ? It was just good and strong wood and I found a big thick hunk of it at Woodcraft so I used that.

Committed ! I should be committed ! Look at the figure in that bubinga !
I haven't found any thing as nice since.
Oh well I use them all the time and respect them and the working style.
Just no big old dog saw to go with them.
Hey David . . . er . . . can I "borrow" that saw for a while ? I PROMISE to return it. No, really . . . I will . . . why are you looking at me that way ? OK . . . I'm going. Take it easy !

http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0093_zps72de4750.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0093_zps72de4750.jpg.html)


http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_0094_zps83ff3eb5.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_0094_zps83ff3eb5.jpg.html)

[Pat Barry]

Your daughter is very impressive up there on that rock! Yikes! Its scary for me just to look at the pictures.

Check out a couple of the Ninja videos here (http://www.nbc.com/american-ninja-warrior/)

[Winton Applegate]

That's where I come in.
Right ?

[Winton Applegate]

pull the fleeing spirit into the worker.
Nice one Jim !
A breath of fresh air.

[Roderick Gentry]

The bio mechanical analysis is interesting, but has it's limitations. We know the fastest and most efficient ambulators are four legs on the floor, yet we walk on two. Muscle size will be what it needs to be to get the job done, analysis based on physical or technical difficulty often miss some point. They were tough, they were skilled, that may have been the case before they even started an apprenticeship. A crazy example I came across while building a spinning wheel was:

I always assumed that the standard seated/treadle wheel was the one wool was spun on, because most of the spinning we see today is wool, and most of the old wheels one sees were the low treadle type. But no, that was for spinning cotton, and other similar fiber. The great wheel was the one for spinning wool. The great wheel is used from a standing position, you give it a spin, walk away as the material pulls out then twists up, then walk back to the wheel as the fibers wind onto the bobbin. All this done while under your full body weight. A spinner could walk 20 miles in a day. Did they do it this way because it allowed them to use the large muscles of the legs rather than solely those of the ankle and the fingers, because wool is a heavier fiber?

I think it is getting even more difficult to tease out reasons for things, with all the cross-pollination in tools we have today, and the generally different environment of use. My first western dovetail saw had a plate of 30 thou; my first Jap. one had a plate of 14 thou; recently LV brought out some large backsaw that have plates of 20 thou. There are Japanese DT saws with plates of 9 thou, but I have never used one. It gets hard to keep all this stuff apart.

That said... :) One advantage of the Japanese saw is that both arms are used together in stand over ripping. The older W. rip saws had handles you could grasp in two hands. My dad was born in 1925, and the men in my Grand Dad's shop started each day ripping out stock by hand. They did it one handed on horses with a knee as holddown, he never saw them rip two handed. These guys built windows, houses, and sometimes the Titanic, so they were not strangers to scale.

I'd like to see some video of Japanese carpenters ripping. I have one from TV, and he is bent over with the arms kept mostly straight, articulating from the shoulders. It is a gentle swinging motion, and he is not white knuckled on the grip.

[Jim Koepke]

It is a gentle swinging motion, and he is not white knuckled on the grip.

As with a properly sharpened western saw, a straight path is chosen by the saw of the sawyer who tries not to direct it.

jtk

[Winton Applegate]

Hey David,
Could you please put some kind of ruler etc. with the photo so we can see the size of this monster.
Thanks

[David Weaver]

The plate is about 380mm long (or 15 inches) and about 14 of that's teeth.

[David Weaver]

Well, I had delusions about making videos of using this saw on 8/4 cherry and timing one or the other, but circumstances have made it so that I don't really have the time to set all of that up and create and upload it.

I have, however, used the saw on some 8/4 cherry in the last couple of days while I'm slowly processing over-thick wood to make kitchen cabinets, and I've been able to compare to two saws:

The first being this "tip top" etched saw that I got off of ebay. This saw's prepared with a little bit of rake, and that combined with the orientation of the handle makes it extremely easy to use. In ripping with these two, I am able to use the western saw faster, but I get tired with it more quickly, too. What was unexpected was what part of my body got tired with the japanese saw - my hamstrings. My arms and hands do not get tired with the japanese saw, but my legs do.

Orientation with the japanese saw is critical. If you try to cut a board flat standing on the board, it's too aggressive. If you step on the board on something about 15 inches tall, then the saw rips very well, quickly and easily (with that strong filing feeling, it leaves you wanting nothing in terms of bite, but at the same time stays smooth). That means this saw is not appropriate for me on pieces shorter than about 2 1/2 feet, because I can't get a good effective angle with whatever I'm ripping. I doubt it's intended to be for those short pieces.

The japanese saw is also a bit pickier about woods. I ripped some 5/4 beech to make hand planes, and while it worked for that, it was a bit grabby. What I had just wasn't long enough (a little over 2 feet long) or thick enough to take advantage of the way this saw is set up, and the tip top ripped a foot and a half about as fast as it took me to rip 6 -8 inches with the japanese saw. The surprising thing is that both saws have a kerf about the same, so I was able to right down the japanese saw's kerf and finish the beech blank.

However, on 8/4 cherry, the tip top is not optimal because it has comfortable rake and teeth for 4/4 or 5/4 stuff from cherry to beech/maple hardness. It's easy to use, but it doesn't have quite the bite you're looking for if you want to saw fast. I just finished filing another disston d8 5 point saw (that I got in a lot from an mjd auction) and made sure to file it close to zero rake. The conclusion with the two saws in an 8/4 board that I have is that I can rip faster with the D8 with zero rake, but that same d8 is unpleasant to use in 4/4 cherry sitting (which is my preferred method for long rips).

Everything is a tradeoff. With some practice, I would probably be able to rip faster with the japanese saw in stuff like 8/4 cherry, than I would with a saw set up like the tip top. If the western saw is set up like the D8 with almost no rake and it's fresh, I likely will never get this saw to rip as quickly as I can with it. What rips 4/4 and 8/4 well isn't just determined by tooth count, but can be determined by rake instead.

This japanese saw is, however, a very seriously capable saw of ripping wood if you like to forego power tools, and it will do it fast enough that you won't feel dissatisfied. Overall, with more practice in orienting the work with the saw, it probably would for practical purposes not add much or any time to a project over the western saws I have, and I'm sure there is a case or two where it would be faster.

That leaves another question - what's out there in the non-custom saw market that is like this japanese saw? Nothing that I'm aware of. If I would have used a gyochuko 300mm ryoba or a 330 mm rip kataba of the disposable flavor, this contest would've been a joke. If I were going to be in the shop for a couple of hours and mix in 20-40 feet of rips with either a well filed western saw or the custom saw in this thread (between planing, etc), I'd be no worse for wear - just exercised a little. If I were to try to do the same thing with any of the disposable saws I have, even the big ones, I would fight those tools the entire time.

I'd score the overall experience as follows:
* Which saw is cheaper? western saws, obviously. There's no disposable machine made alternative to this japanese saw

* Which is more forgiving to various work holding? Western saws, though I could learn to use this saw better than I do now, I think ripping foot and a half pieces with a western saw isn't a problem - it might be difficult with this one. A disposable saw can do that kind of thing, though, where you put the work in the bench vise.

* which saw is more forgiving to abuse and heavy use? Probably even up - the japanese saw shown is surprisingly tough, i mean really tough. You have no chance of pinging teeth of off it or cracking chunks off of it. It's tempered for its job. A habitual saw jammer may even get better longevity out of this saw

* maintenance? even for both. There's nothing about either saw that suggests they couldn't be filed by the user. I have never sent a saw out for sharpening, and have no interest in that kind of thing, but if I had a custom crosscut saw from japan, i'd maybe consider it. I just have no tolerance for tools that the user cannot keep very sharp.

* which saw is faster overall? I'd guess an experienced japanese user would find the japanese saw faster if the work fits (i've heard already that it's the case with this saw). An experienced western sawyer would use a western saw faster.

* would I own just this saw to rip? No, I'd probably commission the saw maker to make two saws like this one - one exactly the same as this one, and one with just a bit less aggressive rake and maybe another tooth per inch. That would just about cover everything except thin softwoods. I have no idea how much that would cost. $2000? I don't know what chance there is of the machine makers making this kind of saw at a slightly lower quality level, but in high volumes. I haven't seen any thick plated machine made rip saws, and I'm sure even the piece of spring steel isn't cheap because it's thick at the tang and this saw has a lot of variance between the tang thickness and the thinnest part of the plate.

Accuracy? - even - it's easy to stay right on the line with both saws, and they can both correct during the cut to stay there. Once you've ripped about 20 feet of wood, staying on a line isn't hard. Squareness follows shortly after that. It took me a lot less than 20 feet to get this saw to follow a line - maybe 5.

I do have a bit of an attitude adjustment over the capability of japanese saws. This saw when worked properly doesn't cut back into the straws, it actually cuts straight across them or slightly uphill. It really is a pleasant surprise and it's a joy to use.

[David Weaver]

Couple of pictures:

This is my second cut, after only about 6 inches of other cuts. Just an idea of the only good way I've found to use the saw - stand on the board. I got a little fat of the line on this cut (intending to just stay on the right side of the line), but well, it's with about a foot of cutting experience with the saw. This board is too short to comfortably saw, but the same idea works on a longer board. On a longer one, I'd have both feet on the board, it's intuitive and works well.

All I had to do is just lay my saw bench over. Same bench for both activities is nice, no need to make anything else. This bench is 12 inches wide. With the board propped, the saw doesn't contact the concrete.

The second picture is just the two saws in question. It gives a good perspective on the size of the japanese saw.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Thanks for the info.

It's intriguing, but not something I'm able to drop the cash on. Too bad a lesser, mass manufactured version isn't available. But then again, a cheap, mass manufactured western rip saw isn't really available new, either, I suppose. (Or maybe they are, I haven't looked) As long as I can pick up old Disstons for cheap when I find 'em, that's the route.

Are you testing a neander "Saw Stop" feature on that western rip, or is that just spill over from the great Dykem disaster?

[David Weaver]

Hah...that's just plain old red dykem. The dykem disaster was a bursting blue container, so the red on those teeth is just laziness after marking teeth. I don't always mark them on a rip saw since I have good raking light (and can easily see flats), but I did on that saw for some reason.

[Tony Wilkins]

Very interested reading your experience David. When I started my painfully slow journey into woodworking, I was convinced that Japanese saws would be the answer to my physical limitations. They do in fact work well but the Western saws I got subsequently have just been so much more forgiving to my ineptitude.

I've always thought that Japanese saws are 'precise' tools set to a particular (and somewhat narrow) job - wood type etc. Your write up seems to support that. Kind of explains why whenever you see a traditional Japanese craftsmen they have a whole wall of different saws.

[David Weaver]

I don't know too much about japanese tools, I have a bunch and use some of them regularly, but I think there is a disconnect in a lot of the traditional tools because some of their fascination is working extremely soft woods and trying to do it with what look like near perfect machine edges everywhere.

When you take a tool that's set up to do that, and then put it right in the end of a beech board, it doesn't work that well - too much hook, and it just skips everywhere.

That might have something to do with why they have all of the saws that they have vs. the 4 or so you might find in a vintage tool box (if it's left unfettered).

I think I still do like western rip saws better, that can probably be gathered from above, they're accurate once you have experience. Accurate enough that you can clean up any edge they've left very quickly without overshooting a mark. plus, you can use a western rip saw sitting down so that you don't have to do anything to hold your work other than sit on it. I can't think of anything lazier with hand tools than sitting on your work and using two hands with the saw.

[Chris Vandiver]

Very interested reading your experience David. When I started my painfully slow journey into woodworking, I was convinced that Japanese saws would be the answer to my physical limitations. They do in fact work well but the Western saws I got subsequently have just been so much more forgiving to my ineptitude.

I've always thought that Japanese saws are 'precise' tools set to a particular (and somewhat narrow) job - wood type etc. Your write up seems to support that. Kind of explains why whenever you see a traditional Japanese craftsmen they have a whole wall of different saws.


Another wall of saws(from Daryl Weir).:)

[Tony Wilkins]

After watching his video on hand saws, Ron Herman has a huge amount of handsaws tuned to different jobs. I think western handsaws don't need to be so precisely tuned to each job as Japanese saws do in general.

[David Weaver]

Probably three saws would allow a woodworker to do most of their work. I can't talk, though, I have more than are in that till, and I consider myself as someone who doesn't really have a problem compared to some other people.

[David Weaver]

You can believe whatever you'd like. I timed a few cuts last night. In 7/4 cherry last night, I cut with a western saw at a rate of about 1 1/2 feet per minute. That would be a typical rip pace - possibly twice as fast in 4/4 if it's a typical rip. most of the stuff that I rip is between 2 and 6 feet long. The cuts that I timed last night were on a three and four foot stick. I've never actually timed in minutes and seconds before, and am somewhat surprised that the cut in 7/4 is that fast (maybe because I'm lazy and it feels like work while you're doing it, who knows?)

I might be able to get to the point that I could do the same pace with this saw, there were certainly parts of the cut that were as fast, but it will be mailed to the next person on the (closed) list before I get the chance to get all of the work handling down. It's already packed.

I appreciate that the owner of this saw is pragmatic, confident in its toughness due to its development and willing to mail it out. It was a real once in a lifetime treat to use a japanese saw that was designed for the woods that I ripped with it. At any rate, the owner knows the maker, he could get another one if he wanted to, I guess that's why he's willing to share the saw around. I would hope it never comes to that, but it beats sitting on it and talking about how great it is without letting anyone else experience it.

But, really, the original point of all of this was whether the average amateur could just go out and find a good japanese rip saw at a reasonable price and rip at a respectable pace so that they didn't just walk around saying "I know how to rip, but I use a table saw if it's more than a foot". And the answer is still no. I'm overrun with western saws that fit in that category, though. What this experiment did prove to me is that the (japanese) saws can be designed to rip hardwood capably and fast, and not surprisingly, the orientation of the saw in use is across the straws and not back into it.

Price aside, I think those with the means and the contacts could come up with durable, tough, fast saws like this one and work fine without power tools, and work with a good pace and not have concern about whether they might ping the end off of a tooth in harder woods.

Otherwise, I have represented this whole scenario as accurately as it could possibly be represented, with an objective view of the saws in question and with the disclosure that the western saws are mine and I know what to do with them (thus some bias), despite being an out of shape average person. My only real regret of all of this is that after finding a saw that can hang with the western saws, I can't just provide an email address where anyone with a genuine interest can contact the maker to get their own.

[Chris Vandiver]

I kind of don't believe any of this. I don't know of a single owner of good custom Japanese saws who's willing to not only loan them out but to also ship them, unless he's given up on Japanese saws or he's close to death. Furthermore, Pam taught me how to use them properly, for speed and accuracy. She was taught by Odate (btw, she says it took him 5 or 10 minutes). Neither of us has any problem using them on any wood in any weather in any other conditions. She did give me a lesser quality hand made saw to start with, a ryoba, which is now broken. This reenforces my disbelief.

As shown, those appear to be great saws, they're certainly the right size and shape for great sawing, hard to say about custom or not. Also, there are a lot of very old Japanese rip saws on ebay that are quality, assuming you can sharpen the rip ones.

What's really unbelievable is that you would base your mean spirited post on assumptions and suppositions.

[Tony Wilkins]

What's really unbelievable is that you would base your mean spirited post on assumptions and suppositions.

I tend to agree. In my time on here, David has been nothing but generous with not only information but materials. I does not surprise me that someone would return that generosity.

[Jack Curtis]

Oh, come on people, I was commenting on the generosity, perhaps foolhardy, perhaps not, of the saw owner. Maybe I should have told a joke, inserted a smiley, not engaged in satire at all?

[David Weaver]

perhaps foolhardy

I doubt the owner needs to have anyone questioning their judgement. They may be reading this thread.

At any rate, the saw is on to the next person, perhaps it may show up here (in digital form on the creek) again, I don't know what it's complete route is.

If I didn't have two kids' college to fund, I'd probably see if I could get one just to see how good I could get with it, it's a really cool saw and I regret I couldn't use it as competently as a western saw, though I certainly could easily use it - I know there is some more speed to be had with it.

[Chris Griggs]

If I didn't have two kids' college to fund, I'd probably see if I could get one just to see how good I could get with it, it's a really cool saw and I regret I couldn't use it as competently as a western saw, though I certainly could easily use it - I know there is some more speed to be had with it.

Bah! You're kids can fund their own darn college! I love spending 1/5th of my monthly take home on student loan payments and I'm sure they will too. Buy one for yourself.

[David Weaver]

Bah! You're kids can fund their own darn college! I love spending 1/5th of my monthly take home on student loan payments and I'm sure they will too. Buy one for yourself.

I think you're an enabler! :)

[Chris Griggs]

I think you're an enabler! :)

I have a much easier time spending other peoples money than spending my own.

[george wilson]

David,possibly the reason for the high price of the Japanese saw is the large variations in the thickness of the saw plate,such as being much thicker at the tang(where it needs to be thicker). Probably a lot of time was spent honing or grinding the saw plate to get those variations. Certainly it would take a lot of time to do it. Also,the expertise of the maker deserves compensation.

I wonder if the maker has some modern means of thicknessing the saw plate,or if he has to do it by hand?

It sure sounded to me like Jack called you a liar.

After you send the saw to the next person,perhaps Jack can call both of you liars.:)

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure how they thickness the blanks, but I know I couldn't make anything comparable just chopping up spring steel and making a saw. The tapering on it is significant and it's done very evenly, and the scratches on the blade suggest at least the final scraping was hand done. I don't know what one would do to get saw steel that is dark straw or light brown temper like this one, either. I didn't file it - it's not my saw, so I don't know what it would do to a file, but I'd sure file it if I owned it.

And if I was the maker, I wouldn't make it any cheaper, either. It has a nice cloth wrap and a custom made walnut tooth guard just for the saw, and not just some straight piece of junky junk wood, either. It's nice, the maker took a lot of care in design and in making it. I really don't know what anyone could do to make a better japanese rip saw, I wouldn't pick any part of it to change.

[george wilson]

The temper is certainly plenty hard. Obviously not made of commercial spring steel,which is tempered a blue color. 1095,tempered bout is 52 Rockwell C.. You saw(I don't know the carbon content) I'm GUESSING must be above 56 R.C.. I'm guessing this hardness because it HAs to be soft enough to file,at least. And 56 is pushing it's fileability very hard.

[Chris Vandiver]

On these hand made Japanese saws, the plate is forged from carbon steel and an iron tang is forge welded to the plate(should be a forge line on either side of the plate). The plates are hand thicknessed with a soto-sen, a kind of scraper/file and are hammer straightened and tensioned. A lot of work and skill goes into one of these saws. Below is a photo of a sawmaker using a soto-sen. George is correct concerning the hardness of the plate.

[Jim Matthews]

Hidden under the study of this is a concern for many of us,
how do we do the more strenuous portions of working wood by hand,
when wear and tear have made that difficult?

I think the two-handed grip on this saw intriguing,
it sort of emulates the grip on my logging crosscut saw.

That saw is designed to crosscut green wood, and leaves a ragged mess.

I have to wonder if this saw was purpose made to cut a particular species?

My only success in using a Ryoba to rip was pulling down, with the board higher than my shoulders.
That allowed me to keep my wrists and fingers in tension, and engaged the larger muscles of my
back and shoulders. It's not convenient to saw this way.

The angled handle allows the sawyer to let the arms hang like ropes,
and that takes pressure off the wrists. It's an interesting solution to an old (and older guy's) problem.

[george wilson]

I'm not a user of Japanese tools. Didn't know the tang was welded on. It all still has to be blended and smoothed out,which takes time and effort. Isn't the blade also tapered?

Speaking of scraping steel,as toolmaker,I had to help make an 18th. C. type of scraper used in sword making. The Gunsmith's Shop was interested in making some swords,and forged up the scraper. But,it wouldn't scrape. So,they brought it to me. I saw that,once again,they had neglected at add relief to the cutting edge(they did this before on a tap they made which wouldn't cut). I took the scraper,which was sort of like a large,solid steel spoke shave made without a separate blade. They left the bottom flat. I hollow ground it for them. Then,it cut just fine. They had to sharpen it by honing the vertical front face of the scraper.

[David Weaver]

Hidden under the study of this is a concern for many of us,
how do we do the more strenuous portions of working wood by hand,
when wear and tear have made that difficult?


That is exactly the purpose of my whole challenging the saws to begin with. When we get to the nuts and bolts of actually using the tools to do work, are they practical. I see tons of people comment that it's not practical to rip by hand, etc, and I'm convinced that like straight razor shaving, there may be faster and easier ways to do it now (actually straight razor shaving is a bad example, because i don't think there's a better way to shave unless one has an unsteady hand from a clinical issue), but it's likely that with some skill and finesse, we can saw just fine, and given our outputs of several projects per year, it's really no hindrance to getting work done.

Supposing the japanese also did this, I couldn't tolerate the thought that they'd have to use their saws the way that I have to use my disposable ryobas to be able to rip (which is pretty much in the vise, or like you say, oriented from the other side).

I have a particularly lazy way of ripping wood. I'll send you a video link. You may have tried it already. I'm not overridden with wear and tear at this point, but I'm certainly not the athletic sawyer that a professional would be. I could do everything by hand except for resawing (you could do that by hand, but I really would choose not to do it because it is a real time soak. Cutting 4/4 wood at 3 feet a minute is not, to me, a real problem).

[george wilson]

I saw that video. Are you wearing pajamas in it?:) I don't think I have seen pants like those.

[David Weaver]

Yes, i often go right down to the garage without changing and just work in whatever I'm wearing. If that video made it public, I'd just remove it :) Maybe some other day I'll get a proper video where I'm not wearing pajamas so that I could put it up.

[Brian Holcombe]

Lol glad I'm not the only one. I think I've done more woodworking in a robe and slippers and than in flannels and jeans.

[David Weaver]

Truth be told, I like the crocs and pajama pants better than jeans. It's a lot easier to move around - the only person who really objects is my wife. I think she feels it's not socially acceptable to work in pajama pants despite nobody seeing me do it. I know we're not the only ones :)

[george wilson]

Well,at least stop wearing the ones with the bunnies on them!!:)

[David Weaver]

Well,at least stop wearing the ones with the bunnies on them!!:)

I thought they were devils or something, or some kind of mythical thing. My wife told me that they're cupids!! Of course, I don't buy stuff like that or even notice it when I put it on.

[Chris Vandiver]

I'm not a user of Japanese tools. Didn't know the tang was welded on. It all still has to be blended and smoothed out,which takes time and effort. Isn't the blade also tapered?

Speaking of scraping steel,as toolmaker,I had to help make an 18th. C. type of scraper used in sword making. The Gunsmith's Shop was interested in making some swords,and forged up the scraper. But,it wouldn't scrape. So,they brought it to me. I saw that,once again,they had neglected at add relief to the cutting edge(they did this before on a tap they made which wouldn't cut). I took the scraper,which was sort of like a large,solid steel spoke shave made without a separate blade. They left the bottom flat. I hollow ground it for them. Then,it cut just fine. They had to sharpen it by honing the vertical front face of the scraper.

Yes George, the blades are also tapered and of course the tapering is done very precisely and by hand. The forge weld of the tang is typically done with a scarf joint. Pretty impressive.

[Brian Holcombe]

Hah, so long as that is the worst thing I'm doing there are no complaints. There have been times where I'm in shirt/tie and good flannels and I just can't help but try out a new tool.

[george wilson]

Actually,I just made that up,David. I thought they were some kind of sweat pants.

[Jack Curtis]

You guys wear pajamas? How Asian, Japanese even.

[Dennis McDonaugh]

I'm no expert in Japanese techniques, but I am generally aware that they use very different postures, benches and setups in their sawing and planning. Was your frustration ripping when you were doing it the Japanese way, or when trying to use the saw in a Western sort of context - sawbench etc.?

I think they traditionally sit on the floor which would make a western saw impossible to use.

[Chris Vandiver]

I think they traditionally sit on the floor which would make a western saw impossible to use.

They don't sit on the floor for ripping wood on the scale that the saw in question is used for. Only furniture makers, door makers and other related work is done on the floor by some. Larger scale work is done, for the most part, while standing.

[george wilson]

I can't stand wearing pajamas while sleeping. too tangly.

[David Weaver]

I can't stand wearing pajamas while sleeping. too tangly.

You can save them for the shop then.

[Chris Griggs]

I can't stand wearing pajamas while sleeping. too tangly.

Me too! That and socks. I hate sleeping in socks...they get all bunchy. I just keep my jammies piled on the floor next to the bed so I have something to put on when I get up.

[Jack Curtis]

I can't stand wearing pajamas while sleeping. too tangly.

Same here, only time I wear anything to bed is if it's especially cold, might throw on a sweatshirt or tshirt.