owning machine shop equipments vs. contracting stuff out

[Tai Fu]

I've been wanting to own a milling machine and lathe, mostly because I can make parts on the fly if needed, like should parts break down and I can't find it. However I found that machine shops aren't too far from me and they don't really charge that much for their services... so the question is, is it worth it in maintenance and initial investment of the machines and accessories to have a mill and a lathe in my shop, or am I just better off going to a machine shop if I need parts made?

P.S.: There's a particular block somewhere in Taipei where there are machine part dealers, metal suppliers, and machine shops all located within the same block. So it's very convenient to pick up a block of material, go down a few doors, and have it machined.

[Jeff Duncan]

I think it's going to depend on the situation…..in your case it sounds like outsourcing is possibly an easier and less expensive way to go? For myself I like to be able to make up parts and hardware on the odd occasion. Machinists near me are not cheap, used metal lathes on the other hand are fairly cheap, and sometimes I'm not sure exactly what I want when designing a custom piece of hardware. I may end up revising a design several times to get it to work the way I need it to. So for me having a metal lathe is a benefit.

The other aspect is do you have the knowledge, or an employee with the knowledge, to machine the parts you need? I'm a complete hack when it comes to metal work and just kind of muddle through it. I can usually get what I need to make done…..but then again I'm never trying to make any kind of high precision parts either;)

good luck,
Jeffd

[Bruce Page]

Maintenance on a conventional mill & lathe consists of keeping them clean, lubed, and rust free. I have had a mill & lathe in my shop since the early 90’s and wouldn’t want to be without them. The “is it worth it” question is up to you. Do you have the knowledge or the commitment & desire to learn metal machining? Even with the local machine shops and metal marts, there’s no comparison to being able to walk into your own shop 24/7 and machine a part.

[Tai Fu]

Problem is my shop is located up a steep hill without vehicle access, with a single 50 amp 220 line... it was a struggle getting up all other equipments and I'm finding myself severely limited when it comes to power... The place was designed without AC usage in mind so the electrical system is rather limited. Only thing I have problem with is the lathe/mill will most likely be 3 phase, and powering them will not be easy. Also, since they weight a ton (literally), I have no idea how I'd even get it into the shop. While the machines will be cheap (way less than those desktop mini mill/lathes for sure) I'm not sure what sort of investment into tooling I will need... chances are I'll need so many bits and cutters (many of which will not be used more than once) just to machine one part that it may be cheaper to contract it out...

Everything I have in my shop, including AC and other tools will easily draw 200 amps... the main breaker won't support it. It's not a problem right now because it's a one man shop so only one machine runs at one time...

[Bruce Page]

Amperage requirements are not that high. I have woodworking machines that draw more amps. My mill is 2hp and the lathe is 5hp, both run off of a single 220v phase converter. Tooling on the other hand can be very expensive. I easily have more $$ in tooling than in the machines. If you are looking at it from a cost perspective then sub contract out. I enjoy machining so I look at it as another hobby. here’s a shop tour I put up a few years ago. It’s a little long winded...

Bruce's woodshop tour (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2l9WxC-kJUs)

[glenn bradley]

Given your space limitations discussed in earlier threads, I would outsource. A pro shop will have better equipment than I would want to dedicate space for and the use should be pretty occasional. JMHO.

[Richard Coers]

How often have you had to have replacement parts made so far? Do you think you can afford precision machines or hobby quality machines? How about all the tooling you will need for two machines? Do you think you can instantly have the skills to make precision parts? Will you buy a surface grinder and grinding attachment for your lathe? Do you have access to many different alloys of steel and be able to heat treat them? My point of course is that there is a lot more to precision metal working than clamping a piece of hot rolled steel in a vise or chuck. Many machine parts have tolerances that are very difficult to maintain without grinding it, or the part should be hardened then ground after heat treat. Outsource it!

[John Downey]

As far as I can tell, you haven't yet needed to make a replacement part, is that correct?

Are you in business or a hobbyist?

Over here, I would suggest that farming out all machine work is a very good idea. Many go their whole lives without needing an irreplaceable part. If you are in business, this should not even be a question.

[Tai Fu]

I'm a professional luthier, so I am in business. I have not needed to make replacement parts but I did have to modify machines because it had poor design... like the tension crank on my bandsaw has a 1.5" diameter handle on it that can't tension anything wider than 1/4" because the knob is too hard to turn, so I replaced it with a 8" handwheel and had a machine shop bore and tap it for a set screw so it fits my machine. It costs about 4 dollars. I'm also replacing the tension rod (which is too small, has a 3/8" machine thread on it) with 1/2" acme threaded rod and nuts. I plan on doing it myself, as in replace the square nut with the Acme nut, and then screwing two nuts together on the upper section to allow something to bear against the rod, then it will be glued and bolted shut with a set screw... The hole on the upper wheel unit will need to be enlarged as well...

[Roger Feeley]

Think about what extra tooling you would have to have. The machine itself isn't that expensive. It's the tooling that costs money. the lathe isn't quite so bad. But the milling machine can be a real stinker.

[Gary Pennington]

Think about what extra tooling you would have to have. The machine itself isn't that expensive. It's the tooling that costs money. the lathe isn't quite so bad. But the milling machine can be a real stinker.

What Roger says is correct. Machine tool tooling is like woodworking clamps, you always need one more than you have on hand for important tasks.

g

[David Kumm]

I use a small mill- Millrite which is about 2/3 Bridgeport size - rather than a drill press and would never NOT have one. Allows for basic machining but serves the woodworker too. Dave

[Mike Heidrick]

A Rong Fu 30 (round column) or 45 (dovetail column) is about 800lbs and is considered a benchtop :confused:. The 400lb grizzly G0704 mill is also popular. They all use R8 collets. My big mill is 4500lbs so that is probably out if you cant get to your shop. Tooling can be bought over time to spread out the cost - and maybe with all the shops around you can buy some of their used stuff potentially. Sometimes you can get crazy deals when buying the machine with the owners lot of tooling but many might be dull or unuseable so you will take the good with the bad. I am sure they are not needed but they sure are handy to have around. Used both the lathe and mill tonight. Made a quick $50USD in about 30 minutes today between both tools and I am just learning.

Here was Swearingers brake parts for his bike being reduced by .125".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-VF2blIrJk

[Peter Quinn]

Thats a complicated question, no clear answer in my mind. I'm generally against it for practical reasons, it sort of dilutes your focus on your core business. But a milling machine in a wood shop can be a great asset. We have a bridgeport at work that gets used for lots of basic metal machining. The molding department make good use of it for hold down pads, fences, the occasional repair. We don't get into more complicated parts, like screws, bolts, handles etc, or high accuracy stuff that has to be surface ground. Machinists here aren't cheap but they are well worth the cost when you need accuracy. I could see a case for a small milling machine and lathe in a luthier's shop, I could also see a point where it makes more sense to outsource repair work and focus on making guitars. I've made simple parts for jigs, hold down blocks for the sliding panel saw, shaved a little thickness from a stock part that "almost" fit another machine as a replacement. And for wood machining a mill with digital readout and power drive table is hard to beat for accuracy on short production runs. Used Bridgeports and similar milling machines can be had very cheap here as many shops have dumped them in favor of CNC equipment. Which makes me wonder if a small CNC would not be more useful in a luthier shop than a bridgeport? Food for thought. The question of cost of operation versus the outsourcing alternative, the space and time available, power availability, the value of your time building guitars versus repairing machines, etc are all very unique to your location so hard to consider accurately externally.

[Jeff Erbele]

]I've been wanting to own[/U] a milling machine and lathe, mostly because I can make parts on the fly if needed, like should parts break down and I can't find it. However I found that machine shops aren't too far from me and they don't really charge that much for their services... so the question is, is it worth it in maintenance and initial investment of the machines and accessories to have a mill and a lathe in my shop, or am I just better off going to a machine shop if I need parts made?

P.S.: There's a particular block somewhere in Taipei where there are machine part dealers, metal suppliers, and machine shops all located within the same block. So it's very convenient to pick up a block of material, go down a few doors, and have it machined.


Problem is my shop is located up a steep hill without vehicle access, with a single 50 amp 220 line... it was a struggle getting up all other equipments and I'm finding myself severely limited when it comes to power... The place was designed without AC usage in mind so the electrical system is rather limited. Only thing I have problem with is the lathe/mill will most likely be 3 phase, and powering them will not be easy. Also, since they weight a ton (literally), I have no idea how I'd even get it into the shop. While the machines will be cheap (way less than those desktop mini mill/lathes for sure) I'm not sure what sort of investment into tooling I will need... chances are I'll need so many bits and cutters (many of which will not be used more than once) just to machine one part that it may be cheaper to contract it out...

Everything I have in my shop, including AC and other tools will easily draw 200 amps... the main breaker won't support it. It's not a problem right now because it's a one man shop so only one machine runs at one time...


I'm a professional luthier, so I am in business. I have not needed to make replacement parts but I did have to modify machines because it had poor design... like the tension crank on my bandsaw has a 1.5" diameter handle on it that can't tension anything wider than 1/4" because the knob is too hard to turn, so I replaced it with a 8" handwheel and had a machine shop bore and tap it for a set screw so it fits my machine. It costs about 4 dollars. I'm also replacing the tension rod (which is too small, has a 3/8" machine thread on it) with 1/2" acme threaded rod and nuts. I plan on doing it myself, as in replace the square nut with the Acme nut, and then screwing two nuts together on the upper section to allow something to bear against the rod, then it will be glued and bolted shut with a set screw... The hole on the upper wheel unit will need to be enlarged as well...

I am a school trained, advanced machinist by trade with other 20 years experience in countless shops on countless machines. I worked for two major employers General Electric and Westinghouse. Both often sent me on assignments to their other shops when they were short handed, when they need help with big jobs or to customer job sites. The point is I am multi-skilled and very good at what I retired from.

I underlined part of your quotes. You answered you own question. You do not need a lathe and a mill. Those services are readily available and it sounds like very inexpensive, well at least in U.S. terms. Our machine shop rates were $60 - $120 per hour (depending on the type and size of the machine tool), in the 1980's. We did nothing for $4. Some parts we machined we worked on the same part for weeks, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Keep your profession in mind and in perspective. What makes you money; pays your bills and produces your income?
Besides a lathe and a mill, you need the chucking and stock support equipment, the layout and measuring tools, and the stock, the correct material, in the correct grade, shape and size to make what? Parts that may break or wear out, someday, maybe.

Before we ever got to touch a machine tool, we spent three months making parts, progressively more difficult and precise with basic hand tools, a bench vise, a hacksaw, a set of files, a ball peen hammer, chisel and prick punch, a machinist scale, a tri-square & protractor, a scibe and a can of bluing. We made our own tools, a brass hammer, drill sharpening gauge, thread tool grinding gauge, later some with machine tools, a tap and drill gauge, vee-blocks, angle gauges, fly-cutter, reamers hardened, tempered & precisely sharpened and more. I used those tools for a career and still use them today. Next we spend endless hours on a bench grinder sharpening drill bits and lathe bits before we looked at a drill press or lathe. Before we ever touched a machine we had to name all of its parts and describe what they do and we had to know the tool bit or cutting bit geometry and how to properly sharpen them. We spent most of three months at a work bench and vise, a lot of hours on a bench grinder and some time with a drill press.

The point is unless you know and master the basics, machine tools are worthless to you, probably and likely dangerous, likely you will not understand their proper function and capabilities or how to use and adjust them for the task at hand. To master a lathe, you need to know tool bit geometry, how to set the tools, determine the proper cutting speed of materials, calculate speeds and feeds, dial in your work with an independent 4 jaw chuck, have and use a dial indicator, adjust the tail stock to cut a straight shaft and a tapered shaft at a given angle, turn, drill, bore, ream, knurl, cut internal and external threads, understand how to use the half-nut, understand the machine dials and determine their ratio, adjust the compound and use it to machine angles, use a steady rest, a follower rest use a taper attachment, a tracer attachment, a pedestal grinder, an internal grinder, a radius cutting attachment, own a set of micrometers, calibrate them and read them. cut internal and external groves and profiles, turn a radius, use a parting tool, cut multi-lead threads and make a matching screw and nut and a lot more. Once you learn how to do those things properly, then you work on speed, how to do them quickly. First one must be accurate than in order to be competitive and profitable one must be fast.

The fact is you want to own a lathe and a mill, but you don't have a clue how to get them up a steep hill. If or when you get them there, you are not sure how you are going to power them. Once you figure that out, you don't know when, if or how you are going to use them. Should you need them you must located the proper stock. Depends what the part is, you may discover that a lathe or a mill are not capable of making the part you desire (for example an internal key way) and may need yet another machine or some item that costs more than the part you want to make.

[John Coloccia]

Tai, I was thinking of bringing a Smithy into my shop. It's just the right size for the kind of work I do. For example, I just had to fix a TonePros bridge for someone. Had to shave about .010" off the bottom, plus a lot of other work. I had to sand it off...sucky job. If I had a mill, I could have clamps it in and taken it off in 5 minutes. I often need custom bushings for things. Trivial on a lathe...PITA otherwise. Since I quit my full time engineering job several years ago, I no longer have access to a machine shop, so like you I need to farm things out sometimes.

Farming out is not bad, but it removes he ability to experiment. I guess it depends what you need it for. Like everyone else says, it will be expensive...you'll spend more on tools than on the equipment. As Jeff says, it can also be quite dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.

My shop's not large enough to consider a separate knee mill and lathe.

FWIW, I haven't brought ANYTHING into the shop yet, though. That should let you know where it is on my priority list....pretty low. I can get a lot of stuff machined for what the equipment will cost me, and without taking up any room in my shop :)

[Rich Tesoroni]

Scale of work matters too. I'd like a mill, but the metal lathe gets used for odd repair tasks too. Making a tube the right size to push bearings on a shaft, just pushing the inner race. Boring stepped holes. I needed a 23/64 inch socket and made on a milling attachment. Need to make the inserts next for the old Delta 14" drill press. Want to hold the Foredom hand piece in the tool holder and make some wood screws.

None look professional, but all worked. I don't know of any affordable outsourcing option.

Except for the wood screws I could have done most of these in one of the current little lathes that are online.

Rich

[Mike Heidrick]

With the machinist community around, what are the educational opportunities that are available?

[John Downey]

You will find that moving into machine tools as part of your business to be a major waste of time and money, because they will not speed up what makes you money. Some of the very small format machines (like Sherline in the USA) could be useful to you in making parts for your trade, but any heavy work like you describe modifying machinery is more efficiently handled by a job shop. I would love to get work done for $4, what you describe would have cost me $100 here, if I could find a shop willing to do it!

Now if you are interested in machining as a hobby or a separate business, there is no reason not to pursue it for those reasons. But you must understand why you are pursuing it because that is a lot of what controls your "expense tolerance" if I may coin the phrase.

I've had to make jigging for my copy carving machine, but the only reason it is worth doing is that I have access to machine tools at my day job. If not for that I would have to hire the work out, it would not be worth buying, setting up, and tooling up a mill and lathe just to do that work.

279053

I don't have Jeff's education in this, I learned by trial and error. It takes lots of error to get to the point where you can make to truly identical parts :D

[Tai Fu]

Thanks for all of your inputs. It really looks like I do not need a Bridgeport or Lathe... maybe sometimes in the future I would get a benchtop or even a mill/drill to replace the drill press. I could see that being useful for stuff and it wouldn't be so hard getting up a steep hill. Already managed to get my jointer up that far and that jointer weights probably 500lbs. Sounds like what I really need more is a drum sander rather than a lathe/mill... however I have absolutely no idea who sells anything like that here. They do have wide belt sanders but that is way too heavy for my shop... same problem as the mill in fact.

Does it really cost $100 dollars at a machine shop in the US to drill a simple hole and a hole perpendicular to that hole and tap it for setscrews?? That job took the machinist maybe a few minutes to set up at the lathe (he asked me for the exact bore diameter, and I said a little larger is better than a little too small, because it turns a rod by hand therefore dimensional accuracy isn't critical), then I asked him to drill another hole and tap it so I can stick a set screw into it... and I was charged 4 dollars for the work. Even at 60 dollars an hour that's a 5 minute job... it's hard to believe they'd ask 100 dollars for such simple operation. Honestly, I could have done it at home with my drill press but I didn't want to go buy a 1/2" drill bit (brad point bits do not drill cast iron) , reamers, taps, etc. so I felt the money was well spent, but if they asked 100 dollars for such simple work I would have done it myself for sure!

[Richard Coers]

Does it really cost $100? Sure. Can you get it done for $10? Sure. Depends if you are in Chicago, or a little farm town. If you don't show up with a drawing, and stand there and talk for 20 minutes about what you are doing with the piece, you are using up their time. Show up with a drawing with tolerances, tell them to just work it in some time, and then get out of there, you will get a much better deal. When I had a woodworking business, I would get walk-ins off the street asking me to cut a piece of warped wood they had in their garage. I had to stop my work, listen the the story about what they were making, answer questions about what finish I use, tell them about the piece I was working on, and then take 1 minute to make the cut. I would loose at least 30 minutes of the day. Wished I could have charged them $100. You can of course go ahead and spend $2,000 on equipment, fill another corner of your shop with tools that hate sawdust, buy more tooling, and not have to spend that $100.

[george wilson]

John Downey,I have found my machine shop to be a wonderful addition to my instrument making. Since I mostly do a lot of different kinds of work these days,the machine shop has had a life of its own. Certainly I would never again want to be without it.

A Smithy is not a very good machine,but if you just plan to make simple things like bushings,or mill off a little wood with it,it should be o.k.. These combination machines,like the old Shop Smith,are never real good machines of any specific type. If it's all you have room for,though,it is a lot better than having no machine at all. I have actually seen some good model engines made on a Smithy. Like many other things,if you are patient and baby things along,it can be made to do good work My first lathe,a Sears Atlas was like that. I'd never recommend it to anyone,but I learned to baby it along,and did some good work with it.

[John Downey]

As Richard says, it depends a lot on the shop. Most shops here do CNC work only, and actively discourage tiny little jobs like re-boring a hand wheel for you. Those that take the work charge enough to make it worth the hassle of interrupting their schedule. You would get a low per part price if you were getting 500 made, but it's rare any more to find shops here that will do walk in jobs like that.

[Tai Fu]

I guess I must be lucky then... They don't seem to have any problem with walk in jobs. They aren't CNC either.

[John Downey]

John Downey,I have found my machine shop to be a wonderful addition to my instrument making. Since I mostly do a lot of different kinds of work these days,the machine shop has had a life of its own. Certainly I would never again want to be without it.

Depends a lot on what you are using the machinery for, whether you are trying to pay the bills using it, and whether you have a reasonable amount of active competition in your field. If it works for you, then great. I would suggest however, that your situation is probably quite different from what the OP described of his own.

Farming out work is not considered sexy by anyone. It sure pays the bills though. The question for a business should always concern the latter and never the former - that's for the hobbyists.

[Jeff Duncan]

Yup machine work is expensive where I'm at as well….but everyone has to eat so….;)

I'm going to veer off topic for just a second as you mentioned some of the work your doing to a bandsaw. It sounds from your description like your trying to modify a low end saw? If so you may end up wasting your time to some degree. You can certainly make handles bigger and enlarge the tensioning rod, however the frame can only withstand so much tension. I believe what you'll find is that even though you can increase tension easier, you'll actually just start bending the frame of the saw. So if your trying to get enough tension to tension wider blades…..your still not going to get there by upgrading all the parts around the frame. Just something for you to think about before spending too much time on it;)

good luck,
JeffD

[John Coloccia]

The problem with the shops out here is just getting them to do it. I use about a dozen engine/machine/whatever shops to do the little bits I need done because every time I call they have the mill setup to make some widget for some aerospace thingy. They just charge me $20, or something like that, if I just need to mill a little off here....drill a hole there, etc. Getting them to actually do it can be like torture.

Since I'm not machining parts but more just modifying or fixing existing parts of making really simple pieces, just about any machine would work for me. If I were actually making parts, I'd want to have a better setup than a Smithy for sure, though you can actually do some pretty nice work on those, especially if you outfit them with a DRO.

[Tai Fu]

I don't see how it's a problem...

I'm not installing 2" .042" blades on my bandsaw, it won't fit anyhow and the frame is about the same as any other 18" bandsaw. I just do not like the stock tensioning setup and the frame can handle so much more. The stock wheel is only 1.5" in diameter, and the tension rod is 3/8" machine thread. In fact I'll say that Jet 18" bandsaws, even the modern ones have the same setup (in fact the upper wheel assembly of my bandsaw looks suspiciously like Jet JWBS-18's upper wheel assembly). It was cheaper than other 18" bandsaws but they all use the same frame anyways. The goal isn't to overtension 1" blades, but more like to make it easier for me to actually install them without damaging the tension rod. It's more about fixing a weak link than go beyond the design of the bandsaw...

In fact I managed to track down the equivalent bandsaw that I have that are sold in the US, and it seems it has the least frame deflection of other 18" bandsaws. I mean think about it, what do you think is going to win, a 1" thin piece of spring steel or 5" x 3" reinforced square tubings made from heavy gauge steel?

[Mel Fulks]

John, we have had a similar problem here . Any machine shop we called acted like we had the wrong number and said they mostly just did work for Phillip Morris.