Fact or fiction: best appearance –hand planed only surface vs. finish sanding? [Archive]

Mike Allen1010

01-03-2014, 2:03 PM

Tony Shea

01-03-2014, 2:10 PM

I think the hand planned finish is a bit over rated. In most cases the finish will cover up most evidence of what the surface prep was. Some finishes it does matter but most IMO come out the same. Having said that I would rather not deal with sanding dust so I try for hand planed surfaces.

glenn bradley

01-03-2014, 2:16 PM

Wishful thinking is more likely :D. I would say it is your preference. Just as scraping versus 220 grit versus 600 grit will all result in the surface taking a finish differently, so too a planed surface takes a finish differently. Folks who like the thick film finish appearance will stop surface prep at a rougher stage than folks wanting a more "in the wood" penetrating oil type finish. Neither of these is right or wrong, better or worse; just different.

Quickly manufactured cabinets that need a stain that is nearly a paint to mask poor figure/material choices and will then get sprayed with a 1/32" thick polyurethane skin will benefit from being sanded to something like 180 as a stopping point. Some finishes benefit from a rough surface like 220 grit to allow things to really soak in. Then the surface is wet sanded to reach a surface that is more appealing to the touch without getting plastic coated. I will plane end grain when the exposed area lends itself to it as this makes the oil absorption more even with the other areas on the piece. If the end grain is not flat, like G&G fingers or exaggerated dovetails, I will sand to 600 grit to achieve the same effect.

Take a piece of material and cabinet scrape an area, plane an area, sand to 220 in one spot and do another area with 400. Now apply a finish to the whole board as if it were all prepared the same. This will give you a real hands-on version of the differences you can achieve with different surface preparations.

Simon MacGowen

01-03-2014, 2:34 PM

Good question.

I know some box-makers who can finish everything without sanding, but their products are usually small, as compared to table tops or cabinets. I also know a hand-tool person or two who like to say they use handplanes and wonder why sandpapers are used. The fact is James Krenov used sandpapers (not a lot) and so did Tage Frid...and of course, Sam Maloof did so, too. Craftsmanship or fine woodworking is not about sanding or not.

I use hand tools a lot, but almost always sand my finished projects (starting with 150 grit or 220 grit) to ensure no surprises (missing a plane track or any tiny tear-out) during the finishing process. That's unless the sanding would cause problems. After fine fitting a drawer to a carcase with planing, for instance, I don't sand the drawer sides for sure.

Simon

Chris Vandiver

01-03-2014, 2:49 PM

Slicing versus abrading. You do the math.

Zach Dillinger

01-03-2014, 2:49 PM

They certainly had sandpaper in the period in which I have interest, so I have no problem sanding my work. That said, hand planing is usually faster (for me anyway) than hand sanding, so I try not to sand unless I absolutely have to. The finish quality is, I think, somewhat deadened by sanding when the wood is in the white, but under finish (especially shellac) I tend to think it makes little difference. If you are doing oil and wax, it might make a difference.

David Weaver

01-03-2014, 2:52 PM

I don't know if it's so much that the surface is more reflective as it is that it's more interesting.

Maybe the most obvious demonstration of this that I can think of is taking a piece of moderately curly cherry and planing it finely set with no tearout. Just a stick that's a couple of inches wide and a foot long or something.

Take another similar piece and sand it however you'd normally sand it.

Take a third piece and scrape it if you want.

Then wax all of the pieces you've made and look at them. The hand planed surface should, without a doubt, have more depth than the other two. You can get close on harder woods if you take very light strokes with a well honed card scraper that doesn't have too big of a burr.

A hand plane will make even fairly boring looking wood much more interesting, and "more woody" and less uniform than will sanding. Whether or not someone cares about that is up to them, but it will be hard to deny that there's a difference in the depth shown in the wood if three pieces from the same board are used.

Roderick Gentry

01-03-2014, 5:30 PM

It depends on the wood, and the project. Some wood like ebony can be sanded with auto paper till it shines, without any finish. Cedar on the other hand will not, at least not with the stuff I have. But one pass over cedar with a 4 tens plane and it is so smooth you can read the script on the lightbulb above, in the wood. So you get different results in different woods.

It is also project specific. Some Japanese woodwork is designed around the hand planes finishes, but it tends to be the stuff like architectural woodworks, or gift boxes. At the other extreme this is the Urushi culture where the finishing media is like a transparent exoskeleton, and so thick and strong that it sometime survives intact when the wood inside has all rotted away. When Krenov made his cabinets, they were not for high traffic use, and they were small, and he had worked out a means of finishing all the parts with planes, and also stuff like filing the breaks.

There is often a single part of a project that will plane out well, say a straight grained frame or perfling, but not the burled veneer in the middle. Or maybe it all planes OK, but the shine varies with grain direction. This is where the finishing process brings it all together, and it doesn't mater what the early steps were once the surface is shot or polished. There is even a system where the surface gets scratched during polishing with coarse pumice, and it somehow looks great. It is another one of those skills vs dogma subjects where it may be more rewarding to be open to the multiple methods. It often takes a very dogmatic person to make the case. CS wouldn't have got the Roubo out there without vastly overstating or twisting the case. That's marketing, but in the end there are always several equally good methods, if not hundreds.

There are similar issues with turning, green woodworking tools, green wood, etc...

David Weaver

01-03-2014, 5:33 PM

Definitely wood dependent. Flat sawn no-curl hard maple is pretty boring no matter how it's prepared, too.

glenn bradley

01-03-2014, 5:35 PM

Slicing versus abrading. You do the math.

But isn't abrasion just lots of tiny cuts. Or is it that slicing is a series of tiny abrasions that cause the fibers to part. Oh the philosophical boundlessness of it all :D:D:D.

george wilson

01-03-2014, 5:54 PM

When I came to work in Wmsbg. in 1970,I got into plane finishing. The surfaces I got with a real sharp plane have more tactile interest than a super flat ,sanded surface. But,the plane cuts have to be made right. I used a smooth plane with just a slight amount of camber to the blade. Set very fine so the corners did not make it into the wood. Made a sideboard finished with violin oil varnish. I still enjoy running my hand over it once in a while.

This is not something I'd do to everything,just certain types and styles of furniture. The sideboard is a country style made of very wide pine boards,with square pegs made of cherry. It really would have been painted originally.

Mel Fulks

01-03-2014, 6:09 PM

George ,I know you have made some superior varnish , if you can recommend a good commercially available instrument varnish that could be used on furniture it would be really helpful. I posted once before asking for a varnish with a soft gummy look. I equate the look of old type varnish to the sheen of gold. 18 k and above has a molten look that lower k just does not have. The non sanded surfaces being discussed really benefit from the right varnish.

Judson Green

01-03-2014, 6:34 PM

In my experience (which is somewhat limited with hand tools) the finished surface off a power sanded (jitterbug and ROS) leave something to be desired, often leaving swirl marks. Then of course there's the noise, dust, always buying more sandpaper, and my favorite... the tingling numb hand after a long session.

Nope I'll take the handplaned surface.

Chris Vandiver

01-03-2014, 6:56 PM

There's an easy test for surface quality by planing versus sanding. Plane a board with a properly set up plane taking a very light shaving, in the proper grain direction. Observe the resulting surface quality and notice the moist sheen. Now sand the surface with 1200gr sandpaper and observe the surface quality. It will be dull by comparison. Properly planed surfaces are also crisper than a sanded surface. Sanding tends to round surfaces.

Derek Cohen

01-03-2014, 7:41 PM

My moderate experience shows me that different finishing methods - alongside one another - will reflect light differently. For example, a scraped and a planed surface, or a planed and a sanded surface. Similarly, different woods will exaggerate this. For example, a closed grain vs an open grain, and a hard vs soft wood.

I suspect - not having tested this out, but extrapolating from Paul Sellers' video - there is a point of diminishing gains to be had from a plane blade, when planing alone. I suspect that there is little difference after 1000 grit on moderate hard straight grain under a finish.

The bottom line is that surfaces must be finished with one medium, either all scraped, all planed, or all sanded. It is the mixed treatments that stand out for the wrong reasons.

Regards from Perth

Derek

george wilson

01-03-2014, 8:49 PM

Mel,years ago before I started making my own varnish,I used Luigi Nicoseco violin oil varnish. Then,it changed its looks. Looked a lavender color in the can instead of a light amber. Not that this would ever show in the thin coats you'd apply. It had to be 2" thick to show that color. I still was not pleased that the varnish obviously was not the same. After some lengthy discussion with the vendor,they finally admitted the formula had been changed because resins formerly used were no longer available. This was probably due to political conditions in Africa.

Sherwin Williams used to make a decent interior varnish that rubbed well. But it seems like everything has gone poly. You can't rub polyurethane varnishes because they "gas" between coats. When you try rubbing them,you rub through the layers and get a"topographic map" effect because you expose these microscopic layers of gas bubbles.

I started making my own,and haven't used commercial varnishes for many years. So,I have no idea what is out there that is any good for rubbing.

By the way,I used to communicate with the chemist at Behlen on a regular basis. I had tried their "Rock Hard" varnish on something,and found that it would print if something was left on it even after months of drying. He told me they named it "Rock Hard" NOT because it was hard,but because it was alcohol resistant. I found it to be too soft a varnish,of all things. That name makes no sense at all. They still sell it,but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't know if they changed the formula since I tried it many years ago. Maybe it's poly too. I just haven't been concerned with it.

So,I just don't have an answer for you. Just making varnish has gotten more difficult because getting REAL materials has gone down the tubes. They used to sell REAL turpentine,which was labeled on the can "from the living pine". It smelled different from this crud they distill from ground up stumps. It WAS different. The only way I know NOW to get real turpentine is to buy Grumbacher artist's turpentine,and pay something like $35.00 for a pint of it. I used to use edible linseed oil,which is a great deal clearer than the stuff you buy at the hardware store(which has driers in it). It was about $2.50 a pint. Now,it is about $8.00 for a very small bottle.

At this time,I'm only interested in making guitars anyway. I use nitrocellulose lacquer,of which I have a small left over supply I bought years ago. I used Star Chemical lacquer,water white gloss. It is the prettiest lacquer I have ever seen. I don't know if it's still available with all the politically correct move to water based stuff,which I hate the looks of. McFadden lacquer was favored by Benedetto,but I think it is out of production now. Behlen offers it PRE THINNED(you get less useful lacquer),at a high price for a quart. I tried it in the 60's. I was startled to see that dye from colored wood inlays was creeping across the guitar!! I haven't used it since!! This is the only lacquer I ever had this happen with. Nitro lacquer is the traditional finish for steel string guitars. Acrylic looks COLD,because it has a blue resin. Nitro's resin is yellow. That vinyl sealer they recommend putting under lacquer leaves guitars looking cold and uninteresting. Makes rosewood have a somewhat grayish cast to it. I don't use that stuff either. You might as well paint your guitar with thinned out white glue,which is what it looks like.

I have been told by a conservator friend that I could make acrylic look warmer by adding a small amount of golden color transparent dye(dyes ARE transparent,pigments are solid) to it. I haven't tried that,and I am concerned about the effects of long term fading. The resin color of nitro wouldn't fade.

Mel Fulks

01-03-2014, 9:09 PM

Thanks,George . A lot of good detail there. I agree a little yellow helps give that soft molten look. I don't like any of the water clear coatings. I think I will read the descriptions of the currently available instrument varnishes ,and then try a cheap one!

Jim Matthews

01-03-2014, 9:09 PM

There are far more capable woodworkers than I.

I was taught to lightly abrade a planed surface with 220 grit
in order that finish would adhere.

george wilson

01-03-2014, 9:46 PM

Finish adhering has come up before. It depends upon the finish. My oil varnished aforementioned sideboard has had no varnish flake off in over 40 years from it's smooth planed surface.

Warren Mickley

01-03-2014, 10:22 PM

I don't know if it's so much that the surface is more reflective as it is that it's more interesting.

A hand plane will make even fairly boring looking wood much more interesting, and "more woody" and less uniform than will sanding. Whether or not someone cares about that is up to them, but it will be hard to deny that there's a difference in the depth shown in the wood if three pieces from the same board are used.

Around 25 years ago I took a small cherry table to a historical craft show and a woman came up and looked it over. She was the wife of a friend of mine who was a fine cabinetmaker. She said, "That's a beautiful piece of cherry." It struck me as odd because actually it was a rather bland piece of cherry, flat sawn with minimal grain interest. I wondered if she was just trying to find something nice to say. Two years later at the same show she said the same thing again. I was puzzled for while before realizing that she had seen plenty of cherry before, but had never seen a finish straight from a plane. She knew that there was something special about it but did not realize it was something I had done.

I should caution that getting a fine finish is not something one can read on a forum and apply cookbook fashion. There is a very wide range of what people consider a "perfectly smooth" or "glassy" planed surface. And applying a finish that takes advantage of a finely planed surface takes experience and judgement.

Roderick Gentry

01-04-2014, 12:09 AM

Definitely wood dependent. Flat sawn no-curl hard maple is pretty boring no matter how it's prepared, too.

Of course boring has nothing to do with finish quality or really quality of any kind. Though I guess one could talk about the quality of ideas, or structure. One of my first projects was a bench square in maple. I cut a piece off the beam, and it ended up in my pocket for quite a while, or on my desk. I would pull it out and look at it. Nothing would have been apparent from across the room, or maybe with my current eyes, but it was a marvel of subtle details. Beautiful coffee colored lines inked out over the tan wood, and ray dots. Very much a case of Pye's diversity. The hand planed finish was deep like marble. But definitely not something to boost furniture to punters.

Al Weber

01-04-2014, 10:13 AM

FWW #180 had an article on exactly this topic.

Daniel Rode

01-04-2014, 11:27 AM

I'm no expert on surface finishing, so take it for what it's worth. I sanded a whole lot of projects before I bought my first smoothing plane. I don't believe the appearance on any of them would have been improved had I used a plane instead.

I dislike the dust from sanding, so I reach for a smoothing plane whenever possible. I try to use the tool that best fits the job at hand. As I understand it, 220 grit is the finest grit needed before applying finish. I often break edges with 400 grit sandpaper but that's for the control rather than additional smoothness. Even if I finish the surface with a plane, I'm going to lightly sand with 220. I want a consistent surface before applying stain of finish and it's rare that I can finish the entire piece with a plane.

I'll stick with sealer to control blotching. I prefer light cut of de-waxed shellac.

As I gain more experience with hand tools, my opinion may change. I'm always happy to sand less.

Simon MacGowen

01-04-2014, 2:44 PM

FWW #180 had an article on exactly this topic.

I am not surprised by the finding:"...very little difference between the three methods (sanded, planed & scraped)...."

Simon

Warren Mickley

01-04-2014, 3:55 PM

I am not surprised by the finding:"...very little difference between the three methods (sanded, planed & scraped)...."

Simon

If you read the Fine Woodworking #108 article carefully you will see that in every case the fellow who did the testing put on a light coat of finish (the three finishes were wax, shellac and oil) then sanded the wood with, I think, 220. They all looked similar because they were in fact all sanded.

Simon MacGowen

01-04-2014, 4:18 PM

If you read the Fine Woodworking #108 article carefully you will see that in every case the fellow who did the testing put on a light coat of finish (the three finishes were wax, shellac and oil) then sanded the wood with, I think, 220. They all looked similar because they were in fact all sanded.

Hi Warren,

On P.66 of the article, the author was referring to sanding between coats (with 220 grit), done on the finish not on the surfaces of the wood that were planed or scraped. Sanding between coats is recommended for some finishes regardless of how the surface is prepared.

In many of my projects, I did feel a difference between sanding between coats and not sanding at all. Where sanding between coats is desired, I usually go with 320 grit though.

Simon

David Weaver

01-04-2014, 4:46 PM

I am not surprised by the finding:"...very little difference between the three methods (sanded, planed & scraped)...."

Simon

I wouldn't rely on a finewoodworking "test" article to tell you something that you could find out pretty easily in a few minutes. I have seen what warren's seen, and on cherry, the difference in depth is quite remarkable. A typical finish for me is padded shellac or shellac with WB lacquer over it, and I'm careful when abrading any finish not to sand heavily enough to reach the surface of the wood.

george wilson

01-04-2014, 5:43 PM

I have sometimes found subsequent repeats of FWW articles to contradict each other. One that comes to mind are the 2 tests of edge retention of chisels. The 2 tests by different persons yielded quite different results. In the first test,I was disappointed to see that my Pfiel chisels did not fare well. In the 2nd.,they scored much higher. Japanese chisels won both tests. Since I own a set of Pfiels,I can recall these tests.

Simon MacGowen

01-04-2014, 6:26 PM

Other than the FW issue quoted above and the forum discussion below, I haven't been able to find any similar discussions or articles (via the archives in FW, PW, WWJ, etc. up to 2013):
http://www.woodcentral.com/articles/handtools/articles_493.shtml

Like sharpening (Last time I read an article on how to sharpen a card scraper by Chris Schwarz, he quoted well over a dozen of techniques he could find!), consensus on whether sanding is desirable and on many other woodworking topics is impossible. That explains why reviews or tests on anything related to woodworking are always good only for those who believe in them.

Simon

David Weaver

01-04-2014, 6:59 PM

Right, I don't think you should get consensus, or agree with me, or warren, or FWW or anything. I think it's more useful to take whatever you use for a finish, cut 3 strips from the same board from a similar level (or lack of) figure and see what it looks like in the shop.

On the cherry that I'm using for my kitchen cabinets, the effect is drastic. Unfortunately, my wife wants the "factory look" so everything is finish sanded at 400 grit. It was enough of a battle just to convince her that we wouldn't stain otherwise nice wood.

Sean Hughto

01-04-2014, 7:26 PM

Brian Ashton

01-04-2014, 7:32 PM

Somewhere along the line I got the idea that the best final finished surface came from a finally set smooth plane (and potentially a cabinet scraper for tear out), with no sanding other than some 600 grit used when applying the finish. The assumption is that the cutting-edge of a hand plane severs the wood cells/fibers cleanly which creates a more "reflective" surface, as compared to final surfacing with sandpaper which "tears" the wood cells/fibers and leaves microscopic scratches that result in a less "reflective" surface after finishing.

I have no idea whether this is true or not, but I'm sure others here will know better than meand would very much appreciate any insights and advice.

My final planed surfaces are usually quite smooth without any plane tracks. If I were to use sandpaper for final surface preparation I would like to start around 300 grit and perhaps work to a finer grit if needed (again have no idea if this is overkill or not). I'm currently working on a project with Cherry which I'm told can be prone to "blotching" when finish is applied and that final surface preparation with 220 grit and finer sandpaper would eliminate any "burnished" areas caused by planing and therefore result in more uniform finish absorption – less "blotching" etc.

Thanks for the help!

All the best, Mike

It all comes down to, it depends on what you're doing at the time and the look you're trying to obtain.

Contrary to what you may find when you see all the arguments flying about regarding who has the best, fastest… way of doing things, there is no right and wrong as long as the end result is what you're wanting or can live with.

What are you trying to achieve will dictate whether you leave a few tool marks are are trying to produce an absolutely perfect surface free of any and all blemishes.

I like leaving a surface that's not quite prefect, if fits in very well with the type of furniture I'm producing at the moment: William n Mary, Chippendale... Other times however, I'm making shutters for the house at the moment, I want a surface that is for the most part free of tool marks, tear out and the likes so filler and some sanding is often needed to clean up those areas.

Jim Neeley

01-04-2014, 7:52 PM

IMO, where finishing from a plane makes the greatest difference is in chatoyance.

Simon MacGowen

01-04-2014, 8:20 PM

WWJ did run two articles on the topic, (may not be along the same line as FW's) and the summaries:

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/51205565/sandpaper-scrapers-planes

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/83107933/plane-simple (http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/51205565/sandpaper-scrapers-planes)

Will read the actual articles to see if their findings contradict or add to that of FW.

Simon

John Coloccia

01-04-2014, 8:32 PM

McFadden lacquer was favored by Benedetto,but I think it is out of production now. Behlen offers it PRE THINNED(you get less useful lacquer),at a high price for a quart. I tried it in the 60's. I was startled to see that dye from colored wood inlays was creeping across the guitar!! I haven't used it since!! This is the only lacquer I ever had this happen with. Nitro lacquer is the traditional finish for steel string guitars. Acrylic looks COLD,because it has a blue resin. Nitro's resin is yellow. That vinyl sealer they recommend putting under lacquer leaves guitars looking cold and uninteresting. Makes rosewood have a somewhat grayish cast to it. I don't use that stuff either. You might as well paint your guitar with thinned out white glue,which is what it looks like.

I have been told by a conservator friend that I could make acrylic look warmer by adding a small amount of golden color transparent dye(dyes ARE transparent,pigments are solid) to it. I haven't tried that,and I am concerned about the effects of long term fading. The resin color of nitro wouldn't fade.

A little amber in acrylic, like Target EM6000, helps a great deal. On dark woods, you can still get a blue cast if you're not careful. I've found that a sealer coat of shellac under the acrylic goes a long way as well, though specifically with the 6000 product you have to use freshly mixed shellac. People have reported crazing over Zinsser Sealcoat, apparently due to a pH problem.

re: McFaddens
They're now long gone, but they were acquired by Seagraves and they offer the same formula.

I also don't like the vinyl sealer. Honestly, I'm not really sure it helps adhesion on wood, and it may even hurt it. Depends who you ask. I don't think it's necessary so I don't use it.

David Weaver

01-06-2014, 9:50 AM

I haven't read every response here so forgive me if this has already been said. This is not something that one can generalize about. It depends on the wood, the finish, the grit one goes to, the sharpness of the plane, the skill of the sander or planer, and even the viewer. For example, if you're putting poly on it, it doesn't matter. I also think even those who swear that a planed surface is better would have a hard time telling you in a blind test under three coats of shellac or lacquer or pl38 or whatever which board was sanded to 400 and which was planed.

If I can remember, I'll do three sticks cut from the same board, one time with wax, plane it off, and redo it with shellac.

In cherry, you can see the difference with the boards side by side. I think the debate is more toward whether or not it matters when you don't have boards side by side to compare.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

01-06-2014, 12:00 PM

If I can remember, I'll do three sticks cut from the same board, one time with wax, plane it off, and redo it with shellac.

In cherry, you can see the difference with the boards side by side. I think the debate is more toward whether or not it matters when you don't have boards side by side to compare.

That's always been the big thing in my experience - a well done sanding job is just as nice as a well done planing job in the things I've done, but if you have to sand or scrape one spot, you have to do the whole darn thing, or at least, that whole piece.

The only time I get finicky about cutting vs sanding was putting coloured dyes on figured maple - you get different looks, and sometimes it's easier to adjust the pre-finish than try and adjust the dye to get the look you want. The big issue for me between cutting and sanding when dying figure woods is that you have to be *good* at sanding - any left behind scratches show up like crazy under the dye; even if they don't register as scratches, they may show up as weirdly dark spots. The same thing could be said about plane tracks, though, I suppose. My brother wanted a guitar with figured maple dyed green, like how they make those Paul Reed Smith style guitars in atrocious finishes. Not my cup of tea at all, but finishing was an interesting challenge.

Roderick Gentry

01-06-2014, 12:14 PM

I like leaving a surface that's not quite prefect, if fits in very well with the type of furniture I'm producing at the moment: William n Mary, Chippendale... Other times however, I'm making shutters for the house at the moment, I want a surface that is for the most part free of tool marks, tear out and the likes so filler and some sanding is often needed to clean up those areas.

One of my blindspots is a lack of knowledge of historical styles. Is it accurate to describe the furniture of those periods as essentially below shutter grade ready to paint work? Of course it is subjective as to what "not perfect means". It can mean we know what is there that no one else will ever spot. In other words perfect.

John Coloccia

01-06-2014, 12:15 PM

That's always been the big thing in my experience - a well done sanding job is just as nice as a well done planing job in the things I've done, but if you have to sand or scrape one spot, you have to do the whole darn thing, or at least, that whole piece.

The only time I get finicky about cutting vs sanding was putting coloured dyes on figured maple - you get different looks, and sometimes it's easier to adjust the pre-finish than try and adjust the dye to get the look you want. The big issue for me between cutting and sanding when dying figure woods is that you have to be *good* at sanding - any left behind scratches show up like crazy under the dye; even if they don't register as scratches, they may show up as weirdly dark spots. The same thing could be said about plane tracks, though, I suppose. My brother wanted a guitar with figured maple dyed green, like how they make those Paul Reed Smith style guitars in atrocious finishes. Not my cup of tea at all, but finishing was an interesting challenge.

For me, the first pass of dye is usually the "practice" pass. I always find scratches I need to get rid of. Second try too sometimes.

george wilson

01-06-2014, 12:17 PM

Thanks for the info,John. With my supply of Star lacquer,I haven't ordered for some time.

Yes,Martin rosewood guitars look cold with that stuff they put on them. Back in the 60's I used the same lacquer they did: Sherwin Williams 20% solids. I ran into a salesman who sold Martin that lacquer. It was a good product. Not as pretty as Star,though. I don't know what they use now,but I hate looking at the rosewood. I don't know why some people,especially "decision makers",haven't enough sense to make DECENT decisions!! Probably it boils down to money. I suppose the vinyl is easier to use. Fender just dunks whole bodies in a tank of it and squeegees it off.

Chris Griggs

01-06-2014, 12:23 PM

I don't mind some sanding, but frankly I'm probably not a good enough finisher for it to make a huge difference. I prefer to work off a planed surface, mainly out of laziness, but my problem is I spend time getting nice planed surfaces BEFORE glue-up and then get glue on areas that can't be easily replaned post assembly, which leads to me sanding or scraping one spot and thus the whole thing. No matter how careful I am, or light on the glue I am, I always somehow manage to get some on my fingers or somewhere stupid that gets on a show face of the piece. I never need to sand below 220, but still I drive myself mad with frustration everytime I wreck a nice planed surface during glueup.

Prashun Patel

01-06-2014, 12:40 PM

Two words, Chris: pre[sic] finish.

David Weaver

01-06-2014, 12:44 PM

That's always been the big thing in my experience - a well done sanding job is just as nice as a well done planing job in the things I've done, but if you have to sand or scrape one spot, you have to do the whole darn thing, or at least, that whole piece.

It reminds me of the guitar store conondrum. If you play a taylor and a martin next to each other in a guitar store, both with spruce top and rosewood sides and back and ebony fingerboards, etc. You will think every time that the martin sounds weak and the taylor sounds very bright and powerful (more scooped, etc).

But when you're listening to music, you never hear both side by side and you rarely listen to a song and say "ghee, this song was done with a martin, it would've been better with a taylor", etc, despite the fact that side by side, you're sure to have a preference.

The only difference is that we don't have a mixer to run planes through to make the finish look like something else.

Chris Griggs

01-06-2014, 12:54 PM

Two words, Chris: pre[sic] finish.

Hehe.:) Come to think of I'm not sure why I don't do that more. I do it sometimes on interiors (if/when I finish an interior) and on things like panels.

I didn't do on my project I just glued up because I need to run out and get more finish, but was ready to glue up. I guess I need to plan better! I feel like I never totally make up my mind on how I want to finish something until its nearly complete...which is kinda dumb.

Roderick Gentry

01-06-2014, 1:04 PM

Around 25 years ago I took a small cherry table

Have the T-shirt also, but it kinda makes the opposite case in some regards. What else is there in the western cannon that one can satisfactorily hand plane? A few things, but the list is reasonably short.

Richard Shaefer

01-06-2014, 1:16 PM

my own 2 cents is that you need to do both sanding and planing, and this is double true for woods that have different densities in the grain (I'm looking at you, red oak). Planing is (in my opinion) the best way to get a FLAT surface, without the low spots that heavy sanding causes, but it is not perfect, since you do get some light tracking. Sanding cleans up all the very minor defects left from the plane, but it's just a light sanding that doesn't dig out the soft bits of the wood. Yes, you can bury the low spots in thick poly or varnish, but it you want a dead flat surface with some of the grain coming through, then (in my expereince) you have to use both planes and sandpaper.

People get too caught up on doing things the "old way"

Prashun Patel

01-06-2014, 1:24 PM

then use waxilit.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

01-06-2014, 9:18 PM

For me, the first pass of dye is usually the "practice" pass. I always find scratches I need to get rid of. Second try too sometimes.

I haven't done guitarpentry in a long while now, but hearing that coming from you makes me feel a lot better about my attempts! I doubt I'll ever do another dyed piece again outside of some sunbursts or a little ambering, though. I still shudder about that green. Of course, I decided to try and do the green over walnut, with white and black fiber veneer between the transition - keeping the color out of the veneer was a dog.

Jessica Pierce-LaRose

01-06-2014, 9:21 PM

Yes,Martin rosewood guitars look cold with that stuff they put on them. Back in the 60's I used the same lacquer they did: Sherwin Williams 20% solids. I ran into a salesman who sold Martin that lacquer. It was a good product. Not as pretty as Star,though. I don't know what they use now,but I hate looking at the rosewood. I don't know why some people,especially "decision makers",haven't enough sense to make DECENT decisions!! Probably it boils down to money. I suppose the vinyl is easier to use. Fender just dunks whole bodies in a tank of it and squeegees it off.

I think part of it may be the VOC limits? I think Pennsylvania, where the Martin factory is (if I remember correctly) recently dropped to the same VOC standards as California, which probably changes the game. Although I don't know if you can get around the VOC standards if you have an industrial spray booth that filters things out of the air.

Roderick Gentry

01-06-2014, 10:03 PM

I suppose the vinyl is easier to use. Fender just dunks whole bodies in a tank of it and squeegees it off.

That could be the case that they have made a landing where it is an easier process, can't they now powder some of this stuff. Living through it, it was a very difficult transition, not easy at all, and the driver was enviro regs. I off home builders can shoot whatever they like, or use somewhat unheard of products, but not the big guys.

Malcolm Schweizer

01-06-2014, 11:59 PM

In building wood boats that are skinned in clear epoxy resin/glass cloth, one thing I found epoxy will do is show up any and all imperfections, including sanding scratches. It magnifies everything and because it soaks in and then hardens, it has a much greater change in refraction of light for end versus face grain. The scratches left from sanding will darken considerably with epoxy resin- much more than with varnish. For this reason I started scraping as opposed to sanding and love the finish I get from scraping. I now have a large assortment of scrapers and for large flat surfaces a LN scraper plane.

My thoughts include that scraping/planing opens up the pores to receive the finish more evenly than sanding, which tears the pores open. If possible, I much prefer a planed/scraped surface to a sanded one. There are times where scraping just won't work, like on a copper riveted lapstrake hull, so there is always a place for either technique.

As others mentioned, it also is easier on the lungs!

I read the comments about the FWW article on scraping versus sanding. I say do a test with epoxy resin and you will see a greater difference. A scraped/planed surface will have a certain glow to it because the pores of the wood are open- like tiny little reservoirs. With sanding, these reservoirs get clogged with dust. Even careful prepping won't get it all out.

It it is not just with epoxy, but epoxy reveals your sins much more than other finishes. With varnish or sprayed lacquers you still end up with a deeper, cleaner finish with planing/scraping versus sanding.

bridger berdel

01-07-2014, 1:37 AM

sanding produces dust, some of which is forced into the pores of the wood. this can be a good or bad thing, depending. if you wet sand with oil, even more dust ends up in the pores, and stays there. built in pore filling. in some woods, a very nice result. planing won't do that.

a sharp plane leaves a finish unlike anything achievable in a sanded surface, in some woods.

the answer is, it depends.

Brian Holcombe

01-07-2014, 9:25 AM

One of my blindspots is a lack of knowledge of historical styles. Is it accurate to describe the furniture of those periods as essentially below shutter grade ready to paint work? Of course it is subjective as to what "not perfect means". It can mean we know what is there that no one else will ever spot. In other words perfect.

Historically accurate in one context would be better than a sanded smooth finish. But if you think that paint grade shutters are better finished you may be missing the premise of this thread, which is that a planed finish is more appealing to look at than a sanded finish.

Not one I can agree to just yet, as I have sanded all of my finishes so far.

Gary Herrmann

01-07-2014, 11:48 AM

george wilson

01-07-2014, 2:00 PM

The big guys do offer genuine nitro finishes if you pay a LOT extra. I guess they can get away with doing a few.

Jack Curtis

01-07-2014, 2:13 PM

Appearance? I think it's a toss up and also where you stop - smooth plane then scrape vs 220 vs 600 vs...

It may be my imagination, but I've always thought a hand planed surface (bare wood) felt a bit more silky than a sanded finish, when sliding my hand with the grain.

Touch hardly ever provides imaginary experiences like vision seems to, and the touch I get from well sharpened Japanese planes and chisels is truly extraordinary, so much so that I seldom have to resort to chemical finishes of any kind, would hate to remove that silky feel and look. Added to the noxious dust of sanding, I choose the former.

And this is kind of what it's all about, all the tool choices, including stones, and methods of sharpening and wood selection. These choices dictate how a piece will feel and look.