David Savage on bench planes

[Hilton Ralphs]

There are about 15 student benches in the workshop and if I look under each of them we would find either a Clifton plane or a Lie Nielsen plane. We have had Veritas planes in the workshop, they were fashionable at one time, but we have had real problems with them maintaining absolute flatness of the sole over a period of time. This may well have been a manufacturing problem that they've overcome but we haven't seen more recently manufactured planes in order to test them so we cannot recommend Veritas at the moment.

The other crucial element to consider is the blade. Lie Nielsen offers an A2 cryogenically treated blade. This, in my experience, is a blade which will hold an edge for a very long time. However it will not take as sharp an edge as I would like. I've spent over 30 years working with high carbon steel blades. In my experience they take a much sharper edge than is possible with the A2 steel. A high carbon steel edge is keener, more sharp, but it needs sharpening more often. The very best blades for planes, in my opinion, are manufactured by Clifton. These are forged welded high carbon steel blades that come close to the qualities of the very best Sheffield steel.

Clifton bench planes made in Sheffield are less expensive than the Lie Nielsen equivalent. I see students every year buying Lie Nielson simply because it is more expensive. They think by paying a little more they getting a better tool. I think they're mistaken. If I were buying bench planes now they would all be made by Clifton.

Ja well no so fine, as we say in South Africa.

[Metod Alif]

Maybe the time spent on checking for absolute flatness would be better spent on learning how to use well, and take a better care of the planes.
Downloading knowledge is easier than developing understanding of what to do with it.
Best wishes,
Metod

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Hilton

Again, I would guess that this is an old article that he is retreading - he's got to be out there.

There is just so much incorrect information here.

For a start, if he is not getting a sharp edge out of A2, then he is not using the appropriate media.

The Clifton blades may be forged welded high carbon steel, but the one I have required flattening (a lot) and in my recent shooting plane test it came in last place in terms of edge holding. A2 lasted twice as long in the same bevel down plane. A blade that dulls quickly is going to create problems when planing. One may argue that is does depend on the wood you use, that is, how abrasive it is. I would counter that it depends on your sharpening media - whether you are in control of the steel you use. I would not use steel that I cannot sharpen efficiently.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Sheffield and Solingen have been running on their reputations for over 200 years,say some knowledgable craftsmen.

It is true that A2 will not take quite as sharp an edge as far as I have ever been able to tell. When I was trying to skive fluffy,soft as down vegetable tanned sea ray skin,only a W1 blade would get sharp enough to skive it in my block plane. Maybe I am not using the best sharpening media?

It is when you are trying to cut the softest imaginable stuff that the need for superior sharpness really shows up.

For ordinary purposes,A2 works fine.

[David Weaver]

And eskilstuna.

Sheffield doesn't seem to fetch high amounts of money, but eskilstuna, and sometimes solingen. Wusthof can get pretty good coin for knives with 0.5% carbon (they work fine, but are noticeably softer than the friodur knives, which I believe are 440C, or just under 1% carbon).

[george wilson]

.5% carbon is absolutely MISERABLY low for cutlery steel. No wonder they are softer. In a test of chisels that Fine Woodworking did years ago,Craftsman chisels made in Holland came out as the worst. They had .5 carbon in them. That low a carbon content is close to the lower threshold at which steel will harden well enough to take a decent edge,but the edge will not last at all,having very poor wear resistance. 4140 steel,with .40% carbon,will get a little TOUGH,but not hard enough for a cutting edge. It is used in axles and other machine parts where toughness is desirable.

[Kees Heiden]

These must have been made in the Nooitgedagt factory. They used to be the largest chisel manufacturer in the world for some time in the seventies. I have a plane iron from them from that time period, used it for a while in my Record #5. Now I have the record iron back into the plane, because the edge would fold over. Not a little bit, but really folding over like it wasn't hardened at all. Nooitgedagt isn't around anymore, why would that be?

[Hilton Ralphs]

Again, I would guess that this is an old article that he is retreading - he's got to be out there.

There is just so much incorrect information here.


Yes of course Derek. Just interesting to see someone else's take on the LN and Veritas products.

BTW, here is a picture of a Clifton Cap Iron/Chipbreaker screw.

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[george wilson]

Yes,anyone's take EXCEPT DAVID FREAKING SAVAGE!!!!:):):)

[Chris Griggs]

Yes of course Derek. Just interesting to see someone else's take on the LN and Veritas products.

BTW, here is a picture of a Clifton Cap Iron/Chipbreaker screw.

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That screw is totally inferior!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :D

You are hilarious my friend.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Last I looked, Clifton were more expensive than LN, but just pulling it up now, the difference is minimal - it must be related to currency differences more than anything here in the States, but I don't know what the cost difference ends up for buyers on the other side of the pond.

I have a Clifton jointer plane I snagged cheap on the eBay. It's masochistically heavy, (I'd love a jointer plane with the precision of a modern plane, but the weight of a vintage bailey)

Compared to the LN I've used, I've rather have gone that direction. The fit and finish of the Clifton just doesn't feel quite as nice - adjustments are just more awkward feeling, I still haven't figured out how to set the lever cap to the point where you can make more than a little bit of adjustment without releasing it, short of having everything too loose. The depth adjuster doesn't feel as nice in my hand. A lot of polished surfaces are dubbed over quite a bit like they were done sloppily on a slack belt or something. The handles leave a bit to be desired; same sort of finished on a slack-belt look and feel, with an upper horn that's uneven, too short and pointy. I mean, nothing is terrible about it, - it's a great worker and has pretty much replaced my junky old Millers Falls to the point where I'm thinking I''m going to sell it, and it's precise in the sole where it really needs to be, and the British green looks great, but for the new retail price, I'd want something that matches the fit and finish of the Lie Nielsen tools, given the price is about the same.

That said, I have no idea how old mine is, and maybe they're better now, or I got a particularly funky example. For the price I payed used, I can't complain at all.

And then, there's that stupid cap-iron. I can't figure out for the life of me how to make the "stay set" thing work; I just put my LV breaker on it.

[Chris Vandiver]

Clifton plane blades may be forged but they are not forge welded.

[Adam Cruea]

Yes of course Derek. Just interesting to see someone else's take on the LN and Veritas products.

BTW, here is a picture of a Clifton Cap Iron/Chipbreaker screw.

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Seriously?

Let me just squirt a little lighter fluid on that fire. . .

*steps back*

Looks smaller than the screw on my LN chipbreaker/cap iron.

*walks away, whistling, hands in pocket*

[george wilson]

A friends of mine has a Clifton that seems to be his pride and joy. I said nothing,but it just doesn't have the precision and quality in my opinion. I agree a lot with what Joshua said above.

[Joe Leigh]

"David Savage on bench planes..."
Who cares? Why are we continually posting his opinions as if they have any relevance or value?

[Chris Griggs]

"David Savage on bench planes..."


Who cares? Why are we continually posting his opinions as if they have any relevance or value?

Because it's cheap entertainment!:)

[Derek Cohen]

And then, there's that stupid cap-iron. I can't figure out for the life of me how to make the "stay set" thing work; I just put my LV breaker on it.

Hi Joshua

I epoxied the stupid thing together. It dropped one time too many on my toes!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Joe Leigh]

Because it's cheap entertainment!:)

Oh, in that case, rock on!!

[Jim Koepke]

Cheap entertainment and a few chuckles make the world a better place.

jtk

[george wilson]

I don't know if Clifton blades are "bitted" or not,like old time blades. If they are,the bit would be forge welded on. Or,possibly welded with a more modern way of doing it. I have even seen Asian thickness planer blades that have a thin layer of HSS welded to the 1/8" body. In fact,the blades in my Taiwan made Bridgewood planer are laminated thusly. In the 70's I somehow came across a newly made laminated Marples plane iron.

Yes,it is amusing that Savage's name keeps popping up!!:) Previously,I had heard of Adam Savage on Mythbusters.

[Pat Barry]

Yes of course Derek. Just interesting to see someone else's take on the LN and Veritas products.

BTW, here is a picture of a Clifton Cap Iron/Chipbreaker screw.

278735
I think they should thicken up the top and knurl that thing (Seems like deja vu all over again.)

[george wilson]

A thin head on that cap screw for sure. Nice threads,though!!

[David Weaver]

I think the clifton irons are one piece. The japanese and chinese are the only groups I'm aware of doing a traditional forge weld.

I remember reading somewhere that the HSS irons from japan are closer to being glued on than welded, but it's not like I've actually ever seen it.

It's not hard to tell that the woodwell tool group (mujingfang) has decided that they would like to braze HSS to mild steel rather than try to laminate the iron.

Anyway, as far as the cliftons go, they are a nice option for someone who has oilstones but they are so far horribly overpriced here in the US that there's no reason to use them. In order for there to be a significant difference between any O1 hard iron and any other hard version, the steel would actually have to be different. As in, a blue #1 iron from tsunesaburo is likely to be different than O1 by several orders more than cliftons iron is different than something like hocks.

They must be priced much differently in europe than they are here (the clifton irons).

I just don't buy the whole argument that the veritas planes are moving all over the place. We'd be running into folks saying that here. Be interesting if the folks who have veritas planes more than a year or two old could go down to their shop with a feeler and a precision (e.g. starrett) straight edge and find these supposed variances.

Any plane that would become 5 thousandths convex would be very easy to spot in a light cut on a level board. It would take the first few shavings only off of the ends.

[steven c newman]

Not sure what my Ohio Tool Co. 05 iron was made from, but, there are two layers on the edge. Iron is also tapered.

On my rebuilt DE6c, there is an iron with a shark stamped on it. The plane is my go-to jointer nowadays, and I think it has been sharpened ONCE in the last year. Still can take see-thru shavings, full width.

Also have a few SW irons and an older one or two. Once sharpened, I leave them be. Best irons around. New ones?? We'll see. A thick Wood River one is being used, and a not so thick Kobalt is in trails right now.

Millers Falls? Happen to have a few of them, even as "Dunlap" style of planes. Have yet to have any problems with them. One of the few planes I had that never had a "chatter" problem.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I think the clifton irons are one piece.


Here is a picture of a Capton Cliff Iron.

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[David Weaver]

right, the cap iron is two pieces. The irons are a solid piece of tool steel, though, as opposed to a laminated iron.

I always thought the two piece cap iron was a good idea in pictures (never owned one due to the price of clifton goods over here), until I learned to use the double iron correctly. Then it didn't seem like such a great idea.

Now I really like those $2.50 trashy stanley cap irons (admittedly, I haven't tried a new one, just the old ones of the same stamped design).

Kinda grown fond of the hardness of the stock stanley irons, too. they love an oilstone and they really respond well to a bare leather strop.

[Jim R Edwards]

I agree with the original recommendation concerning the quality of Clifton. I own Clifton, LN, and LV planes and my favorite bevel down plane is the Clifton. The handles feel and look much better than the cheap cherry LN uses however, the LV tote and handle are the most comfortable to me. The green paint looks very nice and i like the round sides of the Clifton. The blade adjuster has a little more play than LN and LV but it still works well. The blade, cap iron, and weight are my favorite things about the plane. It is heavy! I never worry about setting the chip breaker and the blade gets extremely sharp. Planes highly figured curly maple, sapelle, and bubinga just fine w/ the chip breaker about a 1/16 away from the blade!!!

The Clifton blade gets sharper than my LN and LV using a 8000 norton water stone but doesn't last as long. For durability purposes I have the best results with LN A2. It performs better than my LV O1, A2, and PM steel. I have terrible problems with LV blade edges chipping. Tried numerous angles and grinding the blade back with no results. The fit and finish of LV blades is the best though. If I could only prevent them from chipping I would be very happy!

I have never understood why Clifton's have a mediocre reputation but I'm glad the man who assembles his furniture with nails gave a poor review of them. I can get them cheaper than LV and LN!

[David Weaver]

Cliftons have a mediocre reputation because they had worse quality than LN about a decade ago or a little less, and the support in response to the problems was well documented on another forum - that being that the affected individuals who had dud planes never were made whole either by the retailer or clifton.

I recall Bob Feaser (sp?) describing a problem with a frog that was not milled squarely or something to that effect and numerous claims that he'd be made right, but no action ever taken by anyone to do it.

That was contrasted by LN and LV who will basically make you whole even if they know you're the cause of the problem.

(of course, the people who had "good" cliftons were perfectly satisfied).

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I'll have to dig out my clifton iron, but I was pretty sure it was laminated when I was sharpening it. I could be wrong. so much sharpening lately everything has blended together.

[Jim R Edwards]

There is a YouTube video showing how a Clifton plane and blade is made. I dont know much about steel but it looks like the blade is formed out of a steel rod.

[Chris Vandiver]

I'll have to dig out my clifton iron, but I was pretty sure it was laminated when I was sharpening it. I could be wrong. so much sharpening lately everything has blended together.

Clifton irons are made from one piece of tool steel(O1). They are not laminated or forge welded. They are "hand forged" according to Clifton. They use the term loosely.

[Clay Fails]

I agree with the original recommendation concerning the quality of Clifton. I own Clifton, LN, and LV planes and my favorite bevel down plane is the Clifton. The handles feel and look much better than the cheap cherry LN uses however, the LV tote and handle are the most comfortable to me. The green paint looks very nice and i like the round sides of the Clifton. The blade adjuster has a little more play than LN and LV but it still works well. The blade, cap iron, and weight are my favorite things about the plane. It is heavy! I never worry about setting the chip breaker and the blade gets extremely sharp. Planes highly figured curly maple, sapelle, and bubinga just fine w/ the chip breaker about a 1/16 away from the blade!!!

The Clifton blade gets sharper than my LN and LV using a 8000 norton water stone but doesn't last as long. For durability purposes I have the best results with LN A2. It performs better than my LV O1, A2, and PM steel. I have terrible problems with LV blade edges chipping. Tried numerous angles and grinding the blade back with no results. The fit and finish of LV blades is the best though. If I could only prevent them from chipping I would be very happy!

I have never understood why Clifton's have a mediocre reputation but I'm glad the man who assembles his furniture with nails gave a poor review of them. I can get them cheaper than LV and LN!

I have also had issues with LV PM V11 chisels chipping. Not happy with their performance, despite all the hype. Do others with them sharpen this steel differently from, say A2?

[Derek Cohen]

I have also had issues with LV PM V11 chisels chipping. Not happy with their performance, despite all the hype. Do others with them sharpen this steel differently from, say A2?

Hi Clay

I'm curious (having completed tests and found a huge difference between PM-V11 and A2 when chopping) - with plane blades there is a small range of uses, so the stress on the steel's edge is quite predictable. With chisels, however, there are many possible variables: pushing, chopping, how heavy the chip is, the hardness of the wood as factor of the impact ... So, tell us how you use these chisels and their bevel angle.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

Clifton irons are made from one piece of tool steel(O1). They are not laminated or forge welded. They are "hand forged" according to Clifton. They use the term loosely.

Yeah, pretty much seems that anything that's forged with a hammer and without a die like a drop forging is made is called hand forged. Reminds me of the stuff in the japan woodworker catalog where one of the captions says "master ___'s wife helps with the heavy hammer". well, perhaps someone does swing a hammer, but I'll bet the bulk of the work is done by a power hammer.

[Chris Vandiver]

Yeah, pretty much seems that anything that's forged with a hammer and without a die like a drop forging is made is called hand forged. Reminds me of the stuff in the japan woodworker catalog where one of the captions says "master ___'s wife helps with the heavy hammer". well, perhaps someone does swing a hammer, but I'll bet the bulk of the work is done by a power hammer.

No doubt about it!

[Jim R Edwards]

I don't have any PM V11 chisels so I cannot comment on them. I do have two PM V11 plane blades and have had mixed results. The 2 1/4 in my LVBUS/J works very well. The one in my Apron plane does not. I have honed it at angles from 25-35 degrees and the edge chips. The wood that I was using the plane on was cherry, alder, and maple. Ironically, the original A2 blade did the same thing. Hopefully after some use the chipping will stop.