PDA

View Full Version : New Grizzly 514X2 Band Saw



Bob Ball
01-01-2014, 6:41 PM
I have been reading this Forum for several years, using other folk's experiences to inform my equipment purchases.

I recently joined so that I could share my experiences with a GO 514X2 Grizzly Band Saw that is currently sitting out in my shop waiting to get picked up for return, as well as get some feedback on what is normal and what is not.

In summary (fuller details below) the machine may have been damaged when it fell over face forward in a truck (the top 1/3 of the five slats on the front side of the crate were broken off and the styrofoam was broken/fallen into crate), but it is not clear if that is what causes this saw to shake so terribly. Looking at the front side of the band saw, the spine of the frame (just left of the switches) appears to be fairly straight. The left end of the saw frame (backbone of the spine) is slightly bent in the direction the sawblade pulls when tensioned (1/8" rocker in a 4' straight edge placed at the top). The wheels appear to be fairly well balanced but out of round (1/16'+ for bottom wheel). Other than small scratchs and paint rubbed off the front of the spine above the key, no other cosmetic damage is apparent (doors not dented, etc.).

The top wheel can easily be adjusted to center the blade on both wheels, but when the blade is centered the wheels are not coplanar. When the top wheel is adjusted to make the wheels coplanar the teeth of the supplied 3/4" blade slightly overhangs the tire on the top wheel and is only slightly inside the tire on the lower wheel. Is this unusual? It does not appear that any wider blade could be used without correcting something structural...shim wheel(s)? Machine is supposed to be able to run up to a 1.25" blade.

Which is more important: centering the blade or have the wheels coplanar? Neither adjustment seemed to lessen the shaking. All four corners were firmly in contact with a level concrete slab (I read the December 2012 Thread on vibration/floor levelling). Replacment machine is supposed to be shipped sometime after they get this one picked up...I imagine it wil eventually happen, but Grizzly has not met the timelines they have given me so far, and I have had to initiate all contacts but one. Thanks for any suggestions.

Full timeline below for those who want to wade through it.

12/09/2013
Order Placed Online

12/19/2013
Bandsaw Delivered from Springfield MO to southwestern CO w/ damage as noted:

When this G514X2 Bandsaw was delivered on December 19, 2013 the top 1/3 of the front side of the crate was broken off and missing. When I signed to acknowledge delivery I noted in writing the above damage, that it appeared that the machine had fallen over, and that it was possible the frame was bent.

Before attempting to uncrate and assemble the G514X2 I called and spoke with Grizzly customer service representative Josh, to find out if I should hold the machine for return shipping, or should put it together and see if it worked properly. After conferring with a supervisor, Josh returned to the line and suggested I assemble the bandsaw, but do my best to save what was left of the crate in case it had to be returned.

I emailed photos of the crated machine as I received it, to Grizzly on December 19.

12/25/2013
I completed assembly on December 25. When turned on the bandsaw shakes terribly from front to back. I went through most of troubleshooting suggestions in the manual (align/tension blade, proper tension of drive belt, not rubbing anywhere, solid on floor, etc.) to no avail.

12/26/2013
I called and eventually was able to speak to Grizzly technical representative Larry on December 26. I re-described the damage that was apparent when I received the machine. Larry had no access to the photos I had sent in the week before...this seems like a weakness in Grizzly’s internal communication that should be simple to improve. In any event, after rehashing the situation and how it acts (the bandsaw shakes violently front-to-back from the table up, the base remains solidly on the floor) and explaining what I had examined so far, Larry suggested I remove the blade and see if the shaking changed. He also suggested I make the coplanar gauge described in the owners manual. Larry assured me that someone else would call me to follow up with a resolution of the problem.

After I got off the phone with Larry I followed his suggestion and removed the blade. There was about a four-fold decrease in the shaking, though the machine still vibrated noticeably. I also made and used the coplanar gauge he and the owner’s manual described: if the top wheel was adjusted so that the wheels were coplanar the teeth of the supplied ¾” wide blade overhung the tire on the top wheel slightly, while the teeth were just inside the edge of the tire on the lower wheel. Aligning the wheels did not reduce the vibration. Also of concern was the fact the blade could not be centered unless the wheels were adjusted to not be coplanar. The owner’s manual gives instructions on centering the blade, and later on making the wheels coplanar, but I did not see instructions on how to achieve both, or which was more important.

Based on my observations the wheels appear to be fairly well balanced but out of round: more than 1/16” of runout on the bottom wheel. Placing a 4’ straightedge at the top of the spine, on the front side of the machine, on the edge just left of the key/switches, showed that side of the frame to be relatively straight. Placing a 4’ straight edge at the top on the spine, on the left edge of the saw (the backbone side of the frame, the side that is tensioned when the blade is tightened), the straightedge rested on a high place and rocked a strong 1/8” from end to end.

12/27/2013
Larry with Grizzly customer service (not the technician Larry I had spoken to on 12/26) called me and suggested they pick up the original machine and ship me a replacement. I explained that I was only willing to try another machine if he would promise that it would be assembled and tested before shipment…I was not willing to invest the amount of time I have spent on this machine on another one without that condition. Larry told me he could ensure the new machine was tested before shipment and I agreed to try another one. Larry told me I would be contacted by someone at Grizzly shipping within 24 hours to arrange the return.

12/30/2013
Three days had passed without any contact from Grizzly so I phoned again and was passed from Ruth to George. George left the line for a while (I think he said he was checking with Robert) because he could not tell from my activity file what was going on. He came back on the line and said that nothing had happened because no one at Grizzly had entered my email address (they had it all along and he read it to me) into the activity file. He also told me someone from Grizzly shipping would contact me with return shipping details. As of today (January 1, 2014) I still have not received any email updates from Grizzly, so I do not understand how that could have presented any delay.

A woman from Grizzly shipping called me later 12/30/2013 to say that SAIA trucking should call me within 24 hours with return shipping arrangments. She also explained that the replacement saw would not ship until the original one was picked up. 48 hours later nothing has happened. SAIA only serves my area on Thursdays, so if it is not scheduled for 01/02/2014 it will not happen until 01/09/2014.

This afternoon (01/01/2014) I emailed Grizzly ORD explaining that I looked forward to hearing from someone at Grizzly that they had contacted SAIA and SAIA will call me to schedule a pick up of the saw tomorrow.

Erik Loza
01-01-2014, 7:04 PM
Bob, no dog in your fight but I would be patient. Shipping machines is my business as well and I understand your frustration but to be honest, it seems to me like they are not dropping the ball on you.

If Grizzly is anything like the rest of the machinery sales industry, the week between Christmas and the NYE is one of the busiest of the year. It looks like we are talking about a period of three or four days, correct? And more than likely, there will not be anybody there on 1/1/2014. Arranging pickup of machines from a customer's location is always time consuming, as well, due to the fact that they have to dispatch a truck just for your cargo and it is not Grizzly's fault that Saia only dlivers to your location once a week. Again, I am not saying you don't have a right to be frustrated but on the other hand (and I am not trying to be cute by saying this...), you bought a piece of industrial machinery and are dealing with LTL freight, not Amazon.com. In other words, it could be any manufacturer you purchased a big machine from and if all this is happening around the holidays, it just adds more time. I would just be patient and work with them to get your new machine.

Just my 2-cents and best of luck with it.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

Guy Belleman
01-01-2014, 7:42 PM
During the Holiday season I think Grizzly is providing you better service than I would have expected. I have always been happy with all of my Grizzly tools. Although I have been fortunate that the tools always worked well out of the crate, the shippers had not always treated the crate well.

You say the bandsaw spine bends slightly when the blade is tensioned. For that type of frame, that would seem to be a problem to me, although I have never used a straight edge on my 0513x2.

Stick with it, I think you will enjoy the 0514 when you get it set up.

glenn bradley
01-01-2014, 9:11 PM
Although there have been a few other reports over the years (like you can count them on one hand) of Griz bandsaws shaking most have not had this experience. I base this opinion on threads here as well as the fact that no business can sustain itself if they deliver mostly problems. I have been very fortunate with large deliveries from different suppliers. It is important to understand that once the product leaves the warehouse, the seller has little direct control over how things are handled. The failure of the transport company to call ahead, meet the timeframe and so forth is all on them. FedEx Freight, UPS and third parties have all done a great job out here along the left coast. I do read enough to know that this is not the case everywhere.

Based on my experience with damage free deliveries, I would have refused the saw. However, if I had not been "trained" to expect things to arrive in good shape, I probably would have noted the damage and accepted the shipment as well. Unfortunately, once the item is in your shop, everything involved with managing the logistics of resolving a problem falls to you. The good news is that Grizzly has a good reputation of resolving problems. Your case sounds pretty clear cut as to damage during shipping. My G0513X is so smooth I sometimes leave it running and have to go back to power it down. Many other happy owners of similar Grizzly saws post similar positive experiences here and I am sure they will resolve things for you. It is the hassle and the delays that make the experience painful.

Michael Mahan
01-02-2014, 12:53 AM
not to HiJack the thread but a simple question ,
at what point of damage does one choose to refuse a delivery of a machine ?
Band saws seem to be a problem item anyway they are tall & sorta top heavy , a Band Saw that has been dropped over inside a trailer is likely damaged big time .
I've been a mover & a semi-driver for a long time in a past lifetime , the tall heavy stuff always scared me any time I put my brakes on ( step on the brakes wait for the 'Boom' sound ) I'd strap the heck outta the tall items but these days the trucking companies that vendors like Grizzley & worse vendor resale companies hire don't want to spend $$ on straps OR even install the rails in the trailers to hook a strap to . Most of this damage is not done by the long haul drivers but the local delivery truckers ( sometimes they are the bottom of the barrel , low bid type of guys ) or the damage is at the time of off loading / loading done at the local terminal . Many times we'd get a damaged crate & the dispatcher would say take it out for delivery anyway & see if customer will sign for it .

Frank Trinkle
01-02-2014, 6:43 AM
I have had a number of new machines delivered over the last few months. Big machines. Never a problem, so I feel for you because I would be in deep trouble if I had to send back or refuse delivery. (I am currently working a six-week on, six-week off schedule in Nigeria, and spend some of my off time in Germany where my wife is stationed in the Air Force). As a result, I have to schedule deliveries on a very tight schedule in Florida.

Here's a few pictures of recent deliveries. All on pallets, with liftgate service, and never an issue with a driver getting them up the driveway to my garage....all without damage.

Best of luck getting your issue solved in a expedited manner!

Pics: Laguna 14X14 SUV Bandsaw, Laguna Italian LT20 Bandsaw, Hammer A3-41 Jointer/Planer

278725278726278727

Jim Barstow
01-02-2014, 7:43 AM
I have a 514x2 and it passes the "nickel on its edge test" out of the box. I would expect no less.

Brian W Smith
01-02-2014, 8:03 AM
High mileage 514 here.The only time we ever noticed any excess vibes was a year or so ago.One of the leveling shims/feet had somehow become MIA?Saw was shaking....looked for causes,found it....machined a replacement,got back to work.

We get a few Grizz machines through here for use and repair.Factory support has been above avg,I'd say.Yes,they could be a little better....but then,can't we all?Good luck with yours.

John Coloccia
01-02-2014, 8:21 AM
I have a 514x2 and it passes the "nickel on its edge test" out of the box. I would expect no less.

Mine too.

Brian, what leveling shims are you talking about? Is this something that you put underneath the saw?

Brian W Smith
01-02-2014, 8:34 AM
John,nuthin fancy........ours is nested next to a brick column.It has a cpl big shapers nested in as well(the shapers are back to back,can share the power feed this way).The BS is dialed in for table height,to utilize one of the shaper tables for outfeed.

IMO,and the next time we have the saw down for any "real" repairs......we're going to fill the price point base(sheet metal,thats barely thick enough,and does cause vibration),with concrete.Honestly can't excuse why we didn't when the dang thing came into the shop?Been filling bases with crete for so long it's sort of an automatic........probably in a hurry?You can push a 514 and watch the base flex.....which is what worked the "foot" out of ours.....where it went after that,have to ask the French maid?

John Coloccia
01-02-2014, 8:48 AM
John,nuthin fancy........ours is nested next to a brick column.It has a cpl big shapers nested in as well(the shapers are back to back,can share the power feed this way).The BS is dialed in for table height,to utilize one of the shaper tables for outfeed.

IMO,and the next time we have the saw down for any "real" repairs......we're going to fill the price point base(sheet metal,thats barely thick enough,and does cause vibration),with concrete.Honestly can't excuse why we didn't when the dang thing came into the shop?Been filling bases with crete for so long it's sort of an automatic........probably in a hurry?You can push a 514 and watch the base flex.....which is what worked the "foot" out of ours.....where it went after that,have to ask the French maid?

Mine has the same problem. What I did with mine is bought one of those kits to build your own mobile base, and then I bolted the saw to it...I drilled right through the metal parts of the mobile base. What's nice is it elevates the saw to a more comfortable height, and it has levelers now too :) That ridiculous base causes a lot of problems if it's not immobilized somehow.

Chuck Saunders
01-02-2014, 9:18 AM
Hindsight speaking here
This is why you inspect the delivery before you sign. It does not sound like the damage was hidden. Refuse the shipment. As this is shipping damage Grizzly is not responsible but because they are a standup company, they will take care of you. Not meaning to spank you, just adding perspective.

What assembly does the 514 require beyond the table? I ask only because my 513x2 required nothing else.
Chuck

Bob Ball
01-02-2014, 11:51 AM
Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I chose to accept the machine because there was no apparent damage to the machine, only to the packaging/crate. It may have been a mistake.

I still cannot find any direct evidence that the fall resulted in the terrible shaking, though it may have. No welds appear cracked and no paint is cracked from a bend in the steel after painting, only a few scratches/painted rubbed off above the switches. The frame on the side the machine apparently fell on appears straight. The wheels appear balanced but out of round, something the tip-over does not seem it could have influenced since the doors and case sides were not dented.

I would have to agree that Grizzly is probably giving good service given the time of year, just a little frustrating when they volunteer time frames they do not meet. Maybe they have a script or instructions to always promise 24 hour service, even when circumstances prevent them from meeting that. I did just receive a call from Jessica with Grizzly shipping as I was typing. She had already spoken to SAIA trucking this morning and they told her they would call me and schedule the pick up tomorrow. A pleasant surprise as they always insist they only service this area on Thursdays...maybe a one day push back for the holiday off. I did get a 490X jointer from Grizzly in 2012 that I am satisfied with; I did not need or ask for any parts, but they did call me back and explain how to reassemble some preassemblies that vibrated apart before that machine was delivered to me

Any observations on my questions about the relative values of centering the band saw blade on the wheels versus adjusting the wheels to run coplanar? Thanks again for the help.

John Coloccia
01-02-2014, 12:02 PM
I personally don't think there's any advantage to being coplaner, and there's maybe even an advantage to NOT being coplaner :) When you get the new saw, track it so the gullets on the top wheel are running a little in front of the peak of the crown, and call it a day...IMHO.

Len Henkel
01-02-2014, 8:12 PM
I personally don't think there's any advantage to being coplaner, and there's maybe even an advantage to NOT being coplaner :) When you get the new saw, track it so the gullets on the top wheel are running a little in front of the peak of the crown, and call it a day...IMHO.

+1 I recently saw a video by one of the Carter show demo guys who claims that the wheels do not need to be coplanar. Some are, some are not, depending on the manufacturer. Agree with John just track the blade so the gullets on the top wheel are centered on the crown. Works for me. Made a huge difference in re-saw quality.

Ken Fitzgerald
01-02-2014, 9:08 PM
I think it depends on what style of tires your bandsaw uses as to whether or not coplanar is important.

My MM-16 has tires with no crown. I believe the wheels being coplanar is more important with tires that don't use a crown.

In theory, tires with a crown, should keep a blade aligned better if the wheels are coplanar.

John McClanahan
01-03-2014, 8:01 AM
We have a coulpe of saws that have no-crown wheels. When I adjusted one of them to coplanar, the blade would not stay on the wheels. By the time I got the saw adjusted to use, the wheels were back to the original positions. When the Carter guy says that the manufacturer knows best, he is right.

John

Gus Dundon
01-03-2014, 2:38 PM
Several things can cause vibration, trick is to eliminate and adjust things ( eg blade, tension , pulley, tires ) one by one until you find what's wrong.

Erik Loza
01-03-2014, 2:48 PM
I personally watched a brand new MM20 practically walk across the shop floor due to the fact that it was not totally level. Unlike the old iron-framed machines, modern tube-framed bandsaws seem really prone to their own harmonics, no matter who manufactures them. They are tall, hollow, and often have very powerful motors. It's not a problem, just something to be aware of. We provide leveling bolts with our machines for this reason. When customers call me with, "I have a vibration", the first thing I will ask them to do is to 100% confirm that their machine is planted to the floor properly. This usually solves it. One thing I have observed over the years is that folks sometimes put the cart before the horse and worry about a vibration before actually making any test cuts. In my experience, cutting performance is the true judge of whether or not a perceived vibration is an issue. In other words, get the saw cutting first and then and work out from there.

Just my 2-cents as always,

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

John Coloccia
01-03-2014, 3:42 PM
+1 on getting it level. That's the only reason mine is on the mobile base. I wanted to get the little bit of flex out of the base, and I wanted to use the levelers in the base to dial it in. Since I'm in a converted garage, leveling is not a trivial task due to the grade of the floor. My theory on it is if it's not level, especially front to back, the top of the BS flexes a little bit and loads it like a spring. As soon as any vibration gets in there from anywhere, a little tug of war starts between whatever is driving it and gravity, and the thing just starts going wongwongwongwongwong instead of just dampening it out the way you'd like. That's my untested theory.

Keith Hankins
01-03-2014, 4:23 PM
Hey, man sorry about the frustration on the BS. I have the original (before the x2). It's 10 years old and still going strong. I also have the 1023slx and the 12" jointer. The first mistake you made was accepting the BS in the first place. You should have rejected it and had a new one sent. It's a chance you take with mail order machinery. My first Grizzly was the TS. I waited wanting it badly. It came and I could see where a forklift had gone through the box. The top of the box was crushed badly. I wanted it, but knew there were going to be issues. I took pictures, told the driver to take it back with him. I talked to CS and another one arrived 4 days latter and is still in the shop going strong. It was hard to reject but if you don't you have the experience like that and like you said you don't know what happened. Again hate you had a bad one, but it can happen. All I can say is mines been great and she's got some years on her. I've got her set up with a laguna carbide blade and use it for resawing and it's handled everything I've ever thrown at it. Take care.

Bob Ball
01-05-2014, 1:29 PM
Brian,

I was hoping someone else would ask this, but apparently not. How do you fill the base of a 514 band saw with concrete? Do you have to turn it upside down? I have a backhoe/loader with pallet forks, but I can't imagine laying it over and then suspending it upside down.

I am interested in the details of how you've done it. Thanks, Bob.



John,nuthin fancy........ours is nested next to a brick column.It has a cpl big shapers nested in as well(the shapers are back to back,can share the power feed this way).The BS is dialed in for table height,to utilize one of the shaper tables for outfeed.

IMO,and the next time we have the saw down for any "real" repairs......we're going to fill the price point base(sheet metal,thats barely thick enough,and does cause vibration),with concrete.Honestly can't excuse why we didn't when the dang thing came into the shop?Been filling bases with crete for so long it's sort of an automatic........probably in a hurry?You can push a 514 and watch the base flex.....which is what worked the "foot" out of ours.....where it went after that,have to ask the French maid?

John Coloccia
01-05-2014, 2:04 PM
I would guess you put it on a piece of wood, drill a hole through the base and fill.

Brian W Smith
01-06-2014, 5:09 AM
Either do as John suggests or lay it down.Preferably on one of its narrow edges(this machine base is rectangle)....I'd orient it so we were filling from an "end" vs the wide side.Use plywood as form,leaving a narrow "slot" as fill opening.....fill slot space with whatever.

Filled bases and other machines:Concrete has tremendous potential for vibration damping.It can be either "live" or dead.Dead would see us having fasteners coming through the sides to,semi-permanently lock concrete to any base sheet metal.And with very little thought you can make it easily bolt/unbolt(for moving purposes)."Live" is when you would pre-cast,and then hang the chunk from stays or springs or rubber isolaters.It dosen't fit tightly into the base.And,dosen't really have to be in a base at all......

The problems with concrete design/engineering are very well known(compression vs tension,cracks,stress rsiers,yadayada).Theres not a lot of info on its use as weight and vibration damping.Probably not a real good topic......way to easy to get sidetracked into some rather complicated calcs on balancing.It does work,it's incredibly cheap,it's easy to work with(at least with the amts we're talking about here).

Chuck Saunders
01-06-2014, 1:23 PM
You will actually absorb more vibration using loose fill. If you were to cover the bottom with plywood/steel, then fill the base with sand/lead shot/(any heavy small material). The loose material is moved by the vibration and the enregy is dissipated rather than transmitted by by the solid slab. The solid mass is designed to have more inertia (be harder to move) than the vibration has energy.

Tai Fu
01-06-2014, 2:20 PM
Check the pulley alignment too... sometimes my bandsaw could feel a bit shaky for no reason, and I discovered that the motor pulley somehow slid off because the set screw came loose...

Bob Ball
01-14-2014, 12:55 PM
I am wondering if an administrator-type can explain what happened to the post (I think from Richard Coers) about the problem with the wheels on his Grizzly 514? It was a part of this thread and now, without any explanation in the thread it is gone. Seems like several folks have been critical of Richard in other threads, where it appears to me he was just relating his experiences with the 514; experiences that we all can balance for ouselves against other user's experiences with the saw. When people ask for others advice and experiences I think we would like to see all the information and judge for ourselves. As a newby I am wondering how this works and why something was removed from a thread I started with no notice/explanation.

In terms of (I think positively, closing out) my expereinces with my new 514X2, the original shaking saw was picked up by SAIA freight on 01/03/2014. This saw had the plugs/patches Richard described riveted to the wheels on his saw. I did not take pictures but I think there were two patches/plugs, with two rivets each, in both of the wheels. The wheels seemed to be balanced, but out of round.

The replacement 514X2 was delivered on 01/10/2014 by Fed Ex Freight. No damage was apparent. It shipped out of the Washington State Grizzly facility; not Missouri where my original 514X2 shipped from and where my 490X jointer was shipped from in 2012. The wheels on the replacment saw have no patches/plugs/rivets; appear to be similarly balanced, but closer (maybe very close) to being truely round. Fairly low vibration, though in general it will not pass the nickel-on-edge test ( +/- once in 8 tries). Might be because I could only find one old, worn, rounded nickel. Not sure if a new nickel would improve success here. In any event I judge the current, fairly low level of vibration to be entirely acceptable. I have not put any wood through it yet, I plan to test it this afternoon once I get the fence assembled.

A fairly minor aside here: we do not use our phones that much and this incident caused me to go well over our 500 minute/month maximum, something we never do. One call alone to Grizzly CS was 29 minutes (mostly on hold), at $0.40/extra minute I estimate this cost me more than $35, but just a part of the process. I look forward to getting good service out of this saw. Thanks again.

Richard Coers
01-14-2014, 2:13 PM
Congratulations Bob, first response ever ASKING about me and Grizzly on this site!