Building Wegner's "The Chair" .

[Derek Cohen]

Well, I have finally begun. There is an introduction to the project ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChair-Introduction.html


... as well as the start made, here ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChair-BuildingTheLegs.html


As always, any advice and discussion is welcomed.


Best wishes from Perth for the New Year


Derek

[Sean Hughto]

Looks like you've reproduced the legs perfectly, and the curly jarrah is going to be amazing. Did you consider cutting the mortises for the stretchers while the blanks were still square?

[Chris Griggs]

Nice play by play on the templating and turning. This writeup would really be useful for anyone wanted to reproduce any type of spindle leg. I don't turn yet, so this was of interest to me. It will be useful when I get myself a lathe and go about learning to use it.

Always love to see Lil' Vic getting some love.

[Steve Voigt]

Looks great so far Derek. Looking forward to the rest.
Kudos for being willing to say "this is a jig that didn't work."
Regarding that toolrest, I built one this summer for turning chair parts. I used an syp 2 x 4, then bolted a piece of 1 1/2" angle to it. The radiused edge of 1/4" thick angle makes a nice bearing surface. It is very sturdy. Something to consider if you decide to give it another try.

Steve

[Derek Cohen]

Looks like you've reproduced the legs perfectly, and the curly jarrah is going to be amazing. Did you consider cutting the mortises for the stretchers while the blanks were still square?

Hi Sean

I did consider cutting the mortices while the blank was square. However I was daunted by this as there are too many angles involved to determine up front. Not only are the stretchers offset on the horizontal, but also on the vertical. I think I can work (tenon) more accurately with the completed (round)leg that trying to guess their location on a square face. I will post pictures of the angles later.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Frarey]

Hi Derek, I will be following this. I have always been a fan of the Danish MCM furniture. Most everything I build is from this era and I am lucky enough to have a vintage furniture store near me who always lets me come in with a note pad and tape measure. Take care and Happy New Year. Bill

[Derek Cohen]

...
Regarding that toolrest, I built one this summer for turning chair parts. I used an syp 2 x 4, then bolted a piece of 1 1/2" angle to it. The radiused edge of 1/4" thick angle makes a nice bearing surface. It is very sturdy. Something to consider if you decide to give it another try.

Steve

Steve, that sounds a better design than mine. Next time.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

We made some excellent tool rests at work by welding a 1/4" dia. drill rod across the top of an angle iron rest we made. The drill rod is hard enough that the chisel will not catch on it and get hung up while sliding it along.

We also made a 1" wide tool rest for short parts that was very useful. I need to make one for home. You can't get a normal 6"or 4" wide tool rest close enough to do very small work.

[Max Withers]

So glad you conquered the bandicoots and vegans, Derek! Can't wait to watch this unfold.

[Kees Heiden]

Brilliant Derek! Looking forward to more installments. I can't offer any advice though, never made a chair either.

[Jim Matthews]

I follow this project with the same interest as the other excellent submissions by Mr. Cohen.

I don't turn, so this is somewhat removed from my limited experience.
I have two questions, likely based in my ignorance of both the technique and the wood species chosen -

Does figure in turning blanks lead to more tear out and chipping?
Does the apparent twist shown in some of the blanks lead to a spindle that is eccentric?

I understood that the Danish use of Teak in the 1960's and 1970's was largely because the material turned so easily.

The Jarrah shown is spectacular, but I wonder about the longterm dimensional stability of something like this.

It's an ambitious project, to build any chair.
Tackling an icon with Jarrah is outright courageous.

Kudos

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I feel I may have missed some earlier discussion of this topic, or at least forgotten it; so forgive me if this has been covered, but out of curiosity, what was the "ugly joinery" that he was covering with the Danish cord on the back rest of the earlier version, before moving to the finger joints on the later ones?

Regardless of the joinery, I actually really like the look of the Danish cord on the back rest.

I'll be enthusiastically watching this build; it's probably quite far from anything I would ever try and work towards, but I find this very interesting.

[Derek Cohen]

The Jarrah shown is spectacular, but I wonder about the longterm dimensional stability of something like this.

Hi Jim

This Jarrah is unlike any I have seen or worked before. It is quite rare. It is also very tricky to plane - quite interlocked as well as the curl. When turning it would chip if I tried to take a deeper cut than usual. I had a few big chip fly off when I was roughing out the legs. Fortunately these came out when I turned it to the final dimension.

It should be stable. It has been sitting for a few years, plus I cut it up about a month ago and it has been acclimatising in my shop. What was planed has not moved at all.



Hi Joshua

The "ugly joinery" was some kind of dovetail joint. I have not seen an example. The reason I am not going to cover the chair back is simply because I don't like covering wood. The seat is another matter. I think the Danish Cord is quite beautiful.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

FWIW I've never been disappointed by my 12 inch Robust rest for spindle turning. I highly recommend the Robust line.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Sean. I have search high-and-low for a few years for a longer rest for my Jet mini. The problem in finding one lies with the diameter of the mounting shaft, which is narrower than the average. It would be a 1 minute job if I had welding gear. (... must find a friend with welding gear ...)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Templates. Doesn't sound particular exciting, but time consuming and necessary.

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairTemplates.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Templates. Doesn't sound particular exciting, but time consuming and necessary.


Jeez Derek! Way to steal my thunder. I'm literally in the process of posting templating pics for my current build.:) I guess mines a little different at least as it involves hammering nails into my bench top (GASP) and bending strips of wood around them.

[Derek Cohen]

You have to be quicker, Chris! :)

I am reading along with your build. It's looking like a bench.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Pat Barry]

I can't wait to see how you manage to cope the parts to match the turned curves of the legs. That will be very interesting. I don't see any easy way to accomplish that task. Good luck!

[Chris Griggs]

It's looking like a bench.


:) What a relief. I had some moments where it was starting to look more like firewood!

Looking forward to seeing this come together.

[Derek Cohen]

Next chapter: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/The%20ChairStretchers.html


A question for all: how would you go about coping the tenon shoulders?


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairTemplates_html_m487a284a.jpg


Regards from Perth


Derek

[george wilson]

I would just use an in cannel gouge for the ends,and carefully cut the wood beside the tenon with a chisel. I have enough of those gouges I probably have one that would match that curve pretty closely. If not,nibble away.

[Prashun Patel]

In the spirit of considering all options: how about a floating tenon? Whether you coped before or after the stretcher mortises, it seems it'd be much easier than coping tenon shoulders for a tight fit. Is that cheating?

[Sean Hughto]

Is this portion of the leg a cylinder or does it taper in both directions over its length?

[george wilson]

I do not like floating tenons. They simply cannot be as strong as a solid one.

[Jeff Heath]

I would use a gouge from the top and bottom, and a fret saw from the sides close to the line. Nibble away with a bent gouge, and you're there.

Really nice work so far.

Jeff

[Pat Barry]

I do not like floating tenons. They simply cannot be as strong as a solid one.
I can see the potential for this being the case, however, I don't think it has to be that way. for example, the floating tenon could be even stronger if the wood for it is properly chosen. We always say the glue joint is stronger than the wood so the floating tenon has more glue so it should be stronger. Personally I agree that the floating tenon is the simplest solution. I was just curious if you would choose that path or a seemingly much more difficult path of scribing the joint with a fixed tenon.

[Sean Hughto]

Yeah, nibbling is usually the answer to something like this. I agree, Jeff.

If you wanted some more templates, I have an idea for how to make them: Fashion a piece of a friendly turning wood the exact thickness of the stretchers and a few inches longer than the stretcher's depth; use paper layers and glue waste blocks to each side; turn this to match the mating section of the leg; split at the paper seam and cross cut at the points where the leg would meet the short edges of the stretcher and you have templates to help mark out the shoulders. In marking I would give myself a bit of meat to remove to achieve a perfected final fit and allow for slight variability in each turned leg.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Hrm - I would almost be tempted to sink the rails in a shoulder rather than cope them. Otherwise, I'd follow George's advice, if for no other reason than I love an opportunity to use an incannel gouge.

If you're using floating tenons, maybe a (*gasp*!) spindle sander . . .

[Chris Griggs]

Nice! I'm envious of your compass plane!

[Prashun Patel]

Is there a way to turn a stub tenon on a piece of scrap that matches the diameter of the leg? sandpaper adhered to this would make short work of shaping the horizontally oriented chair rail shoulders. I imagine it'd be easy to nibble the remains of the vertical faces with a small rasp.

[Derek Cohen]

Here is the link to the sawing of the tenons. Not straight forward (is anything?).


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairTenons.html


There is also a partial answer to how I plan to cope the tenon shoulders.


Question time again :) How would you go about making the mortices with hand tools?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[george wilson]

According to your pictures,my suggestion to use an in cannel gouge worked. That black handle on your saw is really nice!!

[Derek Cohen]

Here is the next instalment - the start of the morticing. This shows one side of the chair, that is, two mortices completed. There is just so much to do in this regard that I thought it best to break it down into smaller chunks.


Your thoughts?


Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairMortices.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I reached some of the coping earlier than I expected. Here is how it went ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairCoping.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Pat Barry]

"The coped ends must be left unmodified, however the waste along the cheek can be removed a little deeper than the coped ends. "

Excellent solution Derek!

[David Weaver]

I reached some of the coping earlier than I expected. Here is how it went ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairCoping.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

Looking good thus far. The coping probably provided some stimulation, too.

They've left some fairly large gaps in the production chair, I may be the only person who would say this, but I would prefer as a buyer of the chair to have them either narrow that gap significanly or fill it. Filling is never a preference, but if it's done tastefully, it doesn't interrupt the flow like a gap does.

Your chair has the potential to be much more handsome, the wood is really so much better than the production chair that you have that even if nothing else was different, it would look much nicer.

[Derek Cohen]

Here is the next instalment in building The Chair:


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairFittingFrontRearStretchers%28Part1%29.html


As always, comments are welcomed.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Nice! Its starting to look like chair! Great progress on what seems like a pretty challenging build.

[Jack Curtis]

...At the end of todays’ session in the workshop I really feel as though I have dodged a bullet...

Have you watched John/Jennie Alexander's video Making a Chair From a Tree? I think it would have saved you a lot of trouble. Granted that s/he was making round mortises rather than squared, but still, the principles would have applied.

[Christopher Charles]

I guess that would make Derek a dodgy kind of guy...

Very clever workaround, particularly the template for the feet.

Looking great, can't wait to see the wood with a coat of finish.

C

[glenn bradley]

I do not like floating tenons. They simply cannot be as strong as a solid one.

You're right but, not much difference percentage-wise :D Here's one test, there have been others.

279504

As to the joint in question, I would mortise for a floating tenon, cut the curve just under with a Forstner bit and then trim to fit.

[Derek Cohen]

Have you watched John/Jennie Alexander's video Making a Chair From a Tree? I think it would have saved you a lot of trouble. Granted that s/he was making round mortises rather than squared, but still, the principles would have applied.

Hi Jack

Thanks. Will you say how you think Jennie's work strategy could be transferred here?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

You're right but, not much difference percentage-wise :D Here's one test, there have been others.

279504

As to the joint in question, I would mortise for a floating tenon, cut the curve just under with a Forstner bit and then trim to fit.

Hi Glenn

Could you do this with hand tools, that is, drilling a precisely angled mortice at the end of a stretcher - no twist at all - and fit a loose tenon .... all without weakening the structure? And if you could do you think this would end up being easier to build and stronger than a traditional tenon?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Curtis]

Thanks. Will you say how you think Jennie's work strategy could be transferred here?

She has this method of getting the precise angles for drilling the mortises for various chair parts, stretchers in particular. Now I don't have it memorized, but basically it requires a small level hanging from a bit extension in the brace, correct placement of a leg, correctly located mortise, and some very careful drilling. Not that I think you didn't setup carefully, but it always helps me to review her video before chair making. Tell you what, I'll watch it again tonight and provide more detail tomorrow.

[Pat Barry]

You're right but, not much difference percentage-wise :D Here's one test, there have been others.

279504

As to the joint in question, I would mortise for a floating tenon, cut the curve just under with a Forstner bit and then trim to fit.

I would argue that this test demonstrated no significant difference. What is surprising is that the half lap faired so well, but then Derek wouldn't like the look of the half lap on his chair.

[glenn bradley]

Hi Glenn

Could you do this with hand tools, that is, drilling a precisely angled mortice at the end of a stretcher - no twist at all - and fit a loose tenon .... all without weakening the structure? And if you could do you think this would end up being easier to build and stronger than a traditional tenon?

Regards from Perth

Derek

My hand tools skill would definitely not allow me to hand drill a mortise with the degree of accuracy I would want for that joint :). I have also never built a chair (don't we have an emoticon for "chicken"?) so my experience with the stresses is from a sitter's perspective as opposed to a builder's. I have no basis for a comfort-zone as to the stresses on the joint over time versus my attachment method.

If I did have the holes done and had a piece of stock for the floating tenon I do not think I would be worried about strength. If I did have concerns I could epoxy the tenon into one part and use my usual method to attach it to the other (hide, PVA, whatever you favor for chairs). I know folks like chairs to be repairable so I don't know that epoxy would be appropriate for both parts using the floating tenon (although, in my ignorance, that would be my preference).

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I would argue that this test demonstrated no significant difference. What is surprising is that the half lap faired so well, but then Derek wouldn't like the look of the half lap on his chair.

I'm trying to remember where that graph came from, and how they tested the joint - depending on whether the tenon was through or not, and how the force was applied, I could see the lap being stronger in some fashions, and possibly weaker in others.

But if the joint can take even the least amount of weight listed in that chart, maybe we all worry too much about appropriate joinery!

[Jack Curtis]

OK, as promised I rewatched Make a Chair From a Tree last night, and can say with certainty that there's no way I can adequately reduce a two hour treatise into a reasonably sized message; but I'll try to hit the high points in case you're thinking about buying this dvd.

First, Alexander spends a lot of effort sizing and orienting the legs and marking them carefully so she can recreate that orientation, incorporating techniques such as drawing lines across their tops and/or bottoms. Then she applies jigs including: a seat alignment trapezoid with small levels; vise jaw inserts that form a diamond (each insert with a V) for holding the legs precisely for marking and drilling; a stick with 3 inline screws for marking mortise locations where she draws circles around much of each leg (drill above the line for the side stretchers, below for the side to side); and the hanging level from the brace bit extension.

Then she assembles the sides. I didn't get further last night. I still think her process is excellent, in spite of the fact I prefer a more casual relationship to woodworking. This type process seems a requirement for chair making, mainly because the front of a chair is normally wider than the rear, which introduces angles that must be addressed. Now if you want to make square chairs....

[Derek Cohen]

Many thanks for this report, Jack. It is very reassuring as I have done something similar with regards the orientation lines. I have yet to see this through - will do so later today - and then I shall have photos to report whether this is going to be a chair or firewood!

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Dave Beauchesne]

Derek:
I am following this with great interest as I have in your many other educational posts/ articles.
I just want to thank you for allowing us to follow along as well as give access to the trials and tribulations of your journey.
While a project of this complexity is way beyond what I could accomplish, I can hardly wait to see finish on that wonderful, curly piece of wood.
Regards,
Dave B

[Derek Cohen]

The chair is beginning to resemble The Chair ...


The Chair – Fitting the Front and Rear Stretchers (Part 2)


Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairFittingFrontRearStretchers%28Part2%29.html


All comments and discussion most welcome.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks for another Monday morning installment. I particularly like the trick with the hand screw for truing the shoulders in the previous post.

C

[Derek Cohen]

The Chair is nearly at a point where I can begin to think of a glue up. Well, that's really getting a little ahead of myself. What I mean to say is that the stretchers are nearly done. Basically, there is one significant (through mortice) and one minor task (rounding the sides) to complete, and then it is ready.


This is where we are ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/25_zps99270152.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/26_zps145897aa.jpg


All the coped joints have been fine tuned ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/27_zps5d009b6b.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/28_zpsab0e82a6.jpg


Before the side edges are rounded, a through mortice (I'm not sure what else to call it) needs to be created in each of the stretchers for the Danish Cord seat. The through mortice runs nearly the full length of the stretcher, beginning and ending 30mm ( 1 1/4") from the ends. It will be 3mm (1/8") wide and through the middle of each stretcher.


This is what it will look like ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/TheChair-Introduction_html_m552f19e_zps6dda4b45.png


Now here is where I could do with your thoughts: how would you create this through mortice with hand tools? Power tool of choice would be a router. That would be an easy process.


My first thought was to saw it out with a coping saw and then clean up the edges with a rasp and file. I practiced on a scrap and decided that this would require too much cleaning up. The saw blade tended to wander with the grain, and the through mortice was too narrow to saw two parallel kerfs.


The other method is to use a mortice chisel. Chisel half-way from each side of the stretcher.


Keep in mind that the front and rear stretchers are compound curves. The side stretchers are straight.


It should be straight forward: score the sides, and chop out the waste. Well, scoring the sides is not straight forward for the compound curves. To begin, a cutting gauge needs to have the appropriate fence to follow a curve. OK, so I can do that.


I practiced on scrap ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/29_zps1af2d756.jpg


In this wood a single blade cutting gauge was not reliable. Even with initial light passes, the blade wandered with the grain enough that the mortice was in danger of wandering off course or widening. A mortice gauge would be better, but I did not feel like making one with the correct fence specifically for this project.


It occurred to me I could use the Veritas inlay cutter for the Veritas router plane. This has a fence that will follow a curve.


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/32_zps8aea83a7.jpg


This has twin blades to score a parallel line for inlay ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/33_zpsf7451ef4.jpg


This is the line created (lower example) ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/30_zps6aa228aa.jpg


Chopping out the waste with a 1/8" mortice chisel was OK ....


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Through%20mortice/34_zps0d9c9fff.jpg


.... however, I can see that this will take time to do.


Anyone have another idea?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Sean Hughto]

A beading tool with a fence suitable for curves and either a blade that scrapers or routes might be something else to try:
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/A370.htm

[Christopher Charles]

What about attaching a semicircular "post" fence to a plow plane to allow it to follow the curve (i.e., like a post fence used on some bandsaws) to efficiently start the grove. Fence on the convex side; perhaps with a second closely spaced post to give registration but also follow the curve? Then drill/mortise the rest.

Good luck!
C

[Sean Hughto]

A scroll saw would be a good bet. So I don't really follow why a hand version - jewelers saw - wouldn't do fine as well - just slower.

[James Pallas]

Derek, looks great so far. Your inlay cutter seems to work very well. You could try doing the same on the opposite side and then use that seldom used compass (keyhole) saw to get most of the waste and clean up with a chisel. That empirical set up your using should make it easier to get placement and shapes for the rest of your build. Stretcher joinery you have done is top drawer work.
Jim

[Jack Curtis]

My first thought was to use individual drilled holes, relieved at the tops, one for each strand. Of course they might have to be too close together, and the trench line is probably more attractive, to say nothing of being easier to weave.

You mentioned that you could saw the trench but couldn't clean it up. How thick are the LN cheek floats? If they're > than 1/8", how about that very thin Japanese rasp LV sells (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=69096&cat=1,42524 is 1/8" thick at the tip) or their Japanese Finger files (http://www.leevalley.com/US/wood/page.aspx?p=67195&cat=1,42524)?

So my approach would be to use a Japanese kebiki to mark the trench, maybe front and back, drilled stop holes at each end, then either chopped or sawed full trench, cleaned up with the LV Japanese finger files (hey, I already have them).

[Matt Lau]

Personally, I'd drill a bunch of holes with a power drill and join it together with rasp and chisel…or a router.
If it was my limited tool set--drill holes with hand saw, joint holes with keyhole saw, files/rasp to smooth transition, sandpaper.

On your hard Aussie wood, I'd be pretty tired after just one mortise!

Personally, I like Jack's idea more.

[Jack Curtis]

Forgot to mention two key things to use my approach successfully: 1) I made a special curved fence for one of our spare kebiki, so it would follow curves; and 2) the saws I'd use are azehiki (sometimes I see this as "azebiki"), Japanese mid-panel saws, both by Yataiki, one small, one large; but good other brands are easily available.280182

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

A very long slot like that? I would have been tempted to make the stretcher by ripping and then re-gluing together the pieces to begin with, like making the front/apron for a continuous grain look on a small table with a drawer. But I'm imagining there's plenty of problems with that approach (besides getting things to look like one piece afterwards) that I'm not taking into consideration because of the compound curves and such.

[Derek Cohen]

This was todays work:


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/ThChairSlottingTheStretchers%282%29.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jack Curtis]

Except for the ends of the slot where you need to create a saw entry point, I see no advantage to the drilling. Does it make your sawing go faster and/or easier?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jack

The drilling does not aid the sawing. it aids the paring and chopping, that is, the waste removal.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Curtis]

OK. Being a straight mortising guy, I guess I consider pre-drilling a waste of time and effort; but each to his own. Happy chair making.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Jack

The slot (through mortice) is 1/8" wide and in very hard and brittle wood. Hitting it with a mortice chisel leaves it vulnerable to cracking, chipping or blowing out. I want to remove as much as possible by paring. It is easier to pare when you take thin slices. Taking too big a bite simply destroys the edge of the blade. To reduce the bites I have carved it up into small pieces by, first, drilling it into sections and then, secondly, slicing it down the centre with the coping saw.

A mortice and tenon joint (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/MorticingByChisel.html) in sturdy stretchers is another matter. Horses for courses.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jack Curtis]

Hi Jack

The slot (through mortice) is 1/8" wide and in very hard and brittle wood. Hitting it with a mortice chisel leaves it vulnerable to cracking, chipping or blowing out. I want to remove as much as possible by paring. It is easier to pare when you take thin slices. Taking too big a bite simply destroys the edge of the blade. To reduce the bites I have carved it up into small pieces by, first, drilling it into sections and then, secondly, slicing it down the centre with the coping saw. ...

Yeah, I have a set of pig stickers, the big ones with the rounded bevels, that are perfect for paring before chopping, just lean in ala Adam Cherubini.

[Derek Cohen]

Sanding, gluing and a coat of finish as the legs and stretchers come together ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairEndofPhaseOne.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Chris Griggs]

Glue-ups are the most infuriating thing on the planet!

Wow, though, that finish really brought the wood to life. Looks really great!

[Will Boulware]

Amazing figure to that wood! Very impressive.

[Pat Barry]

Sanding, gluing and a coat of finish as the legs and stretchers come together ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairEndofPhaseOne.html
Regards from Perth
Derek

Hi Derek -it looks great with beautiful fit up of those coped joints. I do have to say though that I am more than a bit surprised that you used the epoxy method for the glue up rather than a high strength wood glue, so I'd be interested in your rationale for using the epoxy. Was it to get a longer working time? I recall David Marks using a ?? urea ___ plastic resin adhesive?? (someone must know what its called, is this the same thing as epoxy?) for projects where he needed more working time. Did you consider that?

[Bruce Haugen]

I recall David Marks using a ?? urea ___ plastic resin adhesive?? (someone must know what its called, is this the same thing as epoxy?) for projects where he needed more working time.

I'm not Derek, but the urea formaldehyde plastic resin stuff I use is called, oddly enough, Weldwood Plastic Resin glue. It's waterproof, but isn't epoxy. It has a very long open time. It cures hard as a rock and can chip chisels.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Pat

Why epoxy? Because it deals better with the flex in a chair joint. From information I received recently, hide glue tends to become brittle when used with Jarrah. Epoxy is also repairable (eventually chairs need repair).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Here is the work completed today ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairInitialStepsArmsBackrest.html


I do have a question for all. Please have a look at the area where the finger joints will be. I am interested in your opinion in regard to the run out here - will it be strong enough (the finger joint will use epoxy)? Photos are near the end.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Derek Cohen]

This will give a good idea of what is planned for the arm-backrest joint. There are areas about which I would appreciate your comments.


Link: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairArmBackrest%28part1%29.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jack Curtis]

This will give a good idea of what is planned for the arm-backrest joint. There are areas about which I would appreciate your comments.

The joinery between arm and backrest illustrates why hand tools can be used to create superior joints to machines. I suspect the fingers were used for two reasons: 1) points were too difficult for the machines and 2) such joinery relies on glues rather than mechanics.

If we agree that a dovetail mechanism would be a superior joint, why not go for a dovetail of some sort, whether rounded or not?

So I'd say pointed or not is a non issue; therefore, choose the pointed if they're easier to do with hand tools. However, it may be much better to use a dovetail, maybe one like on Underhill's mallet with the mystery joint.

[Tony Shea]

I think the pointed ends will look as nice, if not nicer than the rounded originals on the finger joint. I agree that rounding them accuratly by hand will be a next to impossible task to complete perfectly opposed to the pointed ends.

It must be heartbreaking to waste away so much beautiful wood to get to the proper shape of the chair. I would kill me. But the project is coming along really nicely!

[Brian Holcombe]

As much as I railed against this idea in the beginning, I think you are doing a great job!

Stick with the finger joint, the beauty of a wegner chair is that it is made by machine and still manages to be elegant and incredibly well made. Must furniture joinery relies on glue in one way or another so that does not bother me.

Stick with points, this one is made by hand!

[Prashun Patel]

I am enjoying this immensely. Something to aspire to. Too bad you had to glue up the arm. I've used that technique before and the grain did not match all that well. But I see you had little other choice.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

No problem with the glued up arm - you cannot see the join. It's good :)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

This follows quickly on from the last post. Decisions to be made. Your ideas are wanted ..


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairArmBackrest%28part2%29.html


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Pat Barry]

Your idea for drilling the ends of the indented V groove is logical and should work pretty well, but how will you round the tips of the points to mate perfectly with the rounded indents? Seems you will need to carefully pare and sand and creep up on the final fit. This would be relatively simple for a single point, but you will have 5 points in total for each joint. That will test your patience for sure. Slow and steady seems the way to success. Good luck

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Something that comes to mind would be to drill a hole in a block of wood, and then rip the block in half, so you end up with a long semi-circular trough in said block, and apply PSA paper to this surface, you could use this to shape the rounded tip. For more accuracy jig up the block like a shooting board, or jig up the piece somehow; the idea there being that you constrain movement in one direction. Sort of like a tiny hand-powered shaper, I suppose.

I've done something similar in the past with success for tiny tiny roundovers in hard-to reach spaces that met at 90 degrees - and it worked well, but I never had to mate something quite as perfectly as Derek needs to, so no idea if it would really work.

Honestly, the best approach may just to be carve by hand with gouges carefully. I think the trick part with Derek's application is really that the "show face" is probably hidden until he carves the arm rests to shape. You can't get away with any undercut in the middle, because the middle becomes the show face after shaping. Like making a dovetailed carcase in 3/4 stock and then planing it down to 1/2" stock after assembly - I'm sure my dovetails would look terrible afterwards!

[Sean Hughto]

I have to say, I've made a pieced arm before, and lap joints were hard enough to get right. I don't envy you this task. If it were me, I'd come up with something equally strong and attractive, but more suited to hand work. But I take it that's a non-starter for you as you want to maintain fidelity to the factory made version's characteristics? In such circumstances I would think the only solution is to emulate the factory with an electric router and complex jig to guide it. Depending upon the tunign of your bandsaw, you might also experiment with that. Even a table saw with an elaborate sled - inthe vein of a tenoning jig - might work.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Derek -

I was under the impression that you were doing the Danish cord on the arm rest/back as well - so why the focus on tackling this hidden joinery to the same machine-made specs?

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Joshua

The Danish Cord is only on the seat. The backrest is bare wood, so the joint will show.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Hi Joshua

The Danish Cord is only on the seat. The backrest is bare wood, so the joint will show.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Ah - sorry. I must have only vaguely remembered your first posts on this chair. I actually really like the look of the Danish cord on the photos of the early versions of the chair from the first page on your site about this project, perhaps I was projecting my personal preferences!

Looking forward to seeing more . . .

[Derek Cohen]

A bit more practice today to create a rounded finger joint.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairClosButNoCoconut.html


Opinion and recommendations gratefully received.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Sean Hughto]

Are you trying to hit this off the saw? If so, I would suggest thinking of it more as an M&T. Assume you can make adjustments to the "mortise" by file or chisel or float to adjust things like lack of squareness. Make the "tenons" ever so slightly oversized so that they can be French fit, so to speak. As with DT's default to prettiness where it shows and allow slight misfits/undercuts where it does not.

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

My initial thought is to cut a block the angle that you want and pare to a fit. If you get to far out you can trim the hole with a rasp. Trying to do this right off the saw seems like it would be pretty hard to hit time after time.

[Derek Cohen]

I need to explain why I have been so bloody minded about persevereing with the drilling and sawing strategy.


The arms and backrest are being shaped in a different way to the legs and stretchers/rails. The front and rear rails were shaped to fit the legs because I could not be sure of the angle of the mortice and tenon joints. The M&T joints are also internal joints and any gaps could be filled with the epoxy used to glue them together.


By contrast, the arms and backrest are known angles, however their joinery is on the outside where it is visible. The joinery here must be spot on. The connecting sections were purposefully made square and oversize. They will be joined and then shaped (in contrast to the legs, which were shaped and then joined).


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairArmBackrest(part1)_html_m43e4d0f7.jpg


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairArmBackrest(part1)_html_7930a919.jpg


In spite of being as careful as I could in squaring the square end sections, I realise that there will be some deviation, or that I should assume that there is some deviation for a worst case scenario. Consequently, I must find a way to saw the joinery from one reference side. In my mind, working inwards from two sides will create errors, even if they are small. This will lead to gaps. If the joinery is perfectly square from the reference side then it should not matter what the opposite side looks like: the parts will fit, and the outsides are going to be removed anyway.


The ability to drill perfectly square from the reference side is one example. This was demonstrated to work reliably. The irony is that the jig I made will drill a hole with greater accuracy (for the purposes here) than the best drill press could!


The ability to saw to the circumference of the hole is important because the wood is too hard and too thick to file to shape, and anyway I have always sawn dovetails to the line, never deliberately played "safe" and left room to pare away waste. I believe in this instance that, with a guide, I should be able to saw to the optimum spot (melding into the edge of the hole). Not only that but, done from the reference side, it should allow for a square joint all the way through the work piece.


Some terminology at this point: I am not sure what to call the finger joint parts. The joint is sort of like a dovetail, but tail and pin does not apply here. Why do I care? Because the joint I have been practicing will have a counterpart, that is, a "male" finger that fills this "female" section. Both end in a round. And the fingers are also separated by a round.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChair-Introduction_html_m16864063.png


I returned to the workshop this afternoon for a little more practice. First I tried carving the finger, that is, marking it out and paring from both sides. It was quickly apparent that this was not going to work and was a LOT of effort.


I had an idea about the errors that occurred previously. What was in common was a saw cut to the one side of the guide and the guide was positioned at the side of a board. My thought was that the clamp I used was pulling it over slightly at that spot because it could not be centred on the guide. I simply used a different clamp.


With everything else exactly as before, this is what I achieved ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Arms/73_zps9134b1d5.jpg


Other side ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Arms/74_zps80d38232.jpg


I was very happy with this. All that was needed was a little cleanup with a 3/16" round chainsaw file.


There was time to try a male finger. All I had to hand was a small piece of Jarrah waste. This was just enough.


I covered the Jarrah with blue tape and marked it from the female finger (this is how I plan to match the arm and backrest, as if it was a dovetail joint - another reason why the reference side must be able to create the non-reference side). The guide was clamped to the Jarrah and the sides sawn out. This left a pointed end, which was shaped with a file ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Arms/75_zpsd74c7e2e.jpg


I had deliberately sawn the male finger a fraction oversize. This was rasped to fit (just needed a few strokes) ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Arms/76_zps286d1c45.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Arms/77_zpsab561d0f.jpg


Tools ...


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Arms/78_zps9cf9e100.jpg


And the Record clamp that helped ..


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Furniture/The%20Chair/Arms/79_zpsd49abdb4.jpg


A few more practice runs are needed before the real thing.


May I have your opinion about working from a single reference side?


Regards from Perth


Derek

[jamie shard]

This is very impressive. Thanks for documenting it, I'm learning a lot.


My initial thought is to cut a block the angle that you want and pare to a fit. If you get to far out you can trim the hole with a rasp. Trying to do this right off the saw seems like it would be pretty hard to hit time after time.


Along those lines (and this is obvious, so sorry for stating the obvious) it seems like as long as the saw cuts wind up within the circle, there is hope for being able to adjust the joint. This might be a case where you need to play it safe by cutting and paring. You could clamp on a paring block to help assist with keeping level.

Any thoughts about steaming and clamping the joint to remove the slight imperfections? Just a thought, I'm not sure how the wood you are using would behave.

[jamie shard]

And by the way, the "one reference side" observation is a good one. It really does eliminate one of the variables.

[Pat Barry]

Hi Derek, any progress on the finger joint portion of your project? Just curious to see how you have managed to get the look you were after. Thanks

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Pat

I have not been back into the shop since returning to work. Now flat out catching up. I usually only get to do any work on weekends, and last weekend was my son's 21st birthday. And this weekend my wife and I will be driving south (of Perth) for a jazz concert (Diana Krall) under the stars in a vineyard. Beautiful weather to put the rag top down and enjoy the sun. It's a hard life but, hey, someone's got to do it :)

Back to the chair next week.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I was tempted to wait another week before posting this part of the build. However it is two weeks since my last post and I had begun receiving email asking whether I had given up! Oh to have the time to be in the shop during the week! But I am back in my day job and it will be another week before I again get a chance to do anything, so here is the update - about 3 hours worth over this weekend past.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairTheFingers%28part1%29.html


Since there is time, any feedback is welcomed, particularly with regard methods of transferring finger outlines.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Not sure if anyone is still following this.

A little more work done ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairTheFingers%28part2%29.html



Regards from Perth


Derek

[jamie shard]

Still following for sure! Tough work, I can appreciate the effort that is going into such a "simple" joint.

[Pat Barry]

Not sure if anyone is still following this.

A little more work done ...


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/TheChairTheFingers%28part2%29.html



Regards from Perth


Derek

I think you came up with a nice little sanding tool there - I think thats very key to your success. Also, I don't need to tell you this I'm sure, but a little bit of 'tuning' on the slopes will create a much bigger change in the 'depth' of engagement. At a 45 deg angle it would be 1:2 (1 thou each side = 2 thou engagement) but for your much steeper angle its probably more like 1:10. I appreciate your attention to detail in getting this to come together. Very tedious I'm sure but the result will be something you can savor for a long time.

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

The glue up is going to be interesting, IMO. Are you going to build a fixture comparable to the one at PP Mobler for glueing? I think that, combined with just a hair more fine tuning is going to have you looking pretty sharp.

I'm sure it feels like your sending this stuff into a vacuum sometimes when posting on your site, but allow me to say I have gone over every page and have picked up an incredible amount of insight from your site.

[Ryan Mooney]

I'm sure it feels like your sending this stuff into a vacuum sometimes when posting on your site, but allow me to say I have gone over every page and have picked up an incredible amount of insight from your site.

+1, this has been an interesting build to watch.