Posting work that looks like others'

[Eric Gourieux]

Roger's post about what to turn when you have nothing particular in mind led me to this issue. I have a stack of pictures of turnings that other turners have made that I would like to turn in the future. I might like the shape, a particular curve, balance of the piece, color, whatever. Sometimes, I like the whole piece and set out to turn something like it. A few of my recent turnings have been just that. I've basically "copied" someone else's turning. Because of this, I have been hesitant to post them. There was a recent article in the AAW journal about plagiarizing other's work, and the gist of the article was that nobody owns a particular form.

Has anybody felt this way and hesitated posting a turning that they did?

Would you mind if someone posted something that looked like one of your turnings? Personally, I would be honored. But, that is just me.

Have you avoided posting a turning out of concern that someone will "copy" it?

[Michelle Rich]

I think one should give credit to the person they copied. It wouldn't hurt either, to change a little something & give it your own look.

[Russell Neyman]

Trust me, the turner you're "copying" was following the lead of someone before him/her. It's darn hard to copy something exactly, anyway, given the adjustments you will make for inclusions, blank shape, etcetera. Now, if there's a unique bit of flourish -- a finial, for example -- that you are specifically duplicating, it wouldn't hurt to make an "inspired by" footnote.

I developed a unique "feather finial" using a banksia pod, something I had never seen before, and was flattered when another woodturner used it on one of his pieces. Apparently, he disagreed with some of the details, so he changed them, making it his own.

It's all good in the end.

[Jim Underwood]

It's only plagiarizing if you copy it exactly, and then claim it as your design. When you sell it as your design, then it's especially egregious.

I would never worry about copying while you're learning how to turn a form. Chances are you'll never duplicate it exactly anyway.

It never hurts to give credit for your inspiration, or change it up a little as Michelle points out.

But I wish some folks were just a tad less touchy about the whole subject. It sure puts a damper on new turners trying to learn... We get a little arrogant about "our design". It's difficult to come up with something entirely original. Most of what we have seen has been done uncountable times before...

[Prashun Patel]

I've never felt that way. We should be so lucky to be copied like Nakashima and Maloof. The demand for the originals will always FAR exceed the demand for the copies. In fine art and woodworking, the copies create tremendous marketing and publicity for the originals. In that respect, I think the designer should PAY the copier for the press. I certainly would.

[Brian Kent]

I would love to say, "In this piece I have copied David DeCristoforo and made an 18" stand 1/64" thick."

[David DeCristoforo]

The turning world is, as my wife so rightly pointed out, a "demi-monde", a small world in the true sense of the word. And I have rarely encountered such a strong defensive posture as when it comes to protecting what one sees as one's "signature style". The fact is that this whole issue is one big gray area.

Many of the common techniques can be traced to an individual. Hollow turning, for example. David Ellsworth. Everyone after that is taking off in one way or another on his concept. But there are few who would not be able to identify a hollow form made by, say, John Jordan. His pieces would never be mistaken for Ellsworth pieces. Finials? Cindy Drozda. But who would mistake a Keith burns finial for one of Cindy's? Piercing? Who was the first one to do that? But compare the pieces of Bin Pho, Gordon Pembridge and Richard Kennedy. None of these works would leave any question as to their maker.

You could claim that anyone who glues two pieces of wood together is "copying" someone. I do think it is important to offer credit to another when you use their ideas. One of the most generous people I have encountered in this respect is John Keeton who repeatedly and generously acknowledges the influence of both Cindy Drozda and David Marks. And, while their influence is obvious in John's work, his own unique stamp is unmistakable.

Personally I think we should just enjoy this and not get too caught up in who's "copying" who. I drifted into that myself at one point and it completely destroyed my enjoyment of the work. Directly copying a design and presenting it, knowingly (that's an important distinction), as your own is another thing entirely. And with the turning world being as close knit as it is, you are not likely to get away with it anyway!

[Brian Libby]

The turning world is, as my wife so rightly pointed out, a "demi-monde", a small world in the true sense of the word. And I have rarely encountered such a strong defensive posture as when it comes to protecting what one sees as one's "signature style". The fact is that this whole issue is one big gray area.

Many of the common techniques can be traced to an individual. Hollow turning, for example. David Ellsworth. Everyone after that is taking off in one way or another on his concept. But there are few who would not be able to identify a hollow form made by, say, John Jordan. His pieces would never be mistaken for Ellsworth pieces. Finials? Cindy Drozda. But who would mistake a Keith burns finial for one of Cindy's? Piercing? Who was the first one to do that? But compare the pieces of Bin Pho, Gordon Pembridge and Richard Kennedy. None of these works would leave any question as to their maker.

You could claim that anyone who glues two pieces of wood together is "copying" someone. I do think it is important to offer credit to another when you use their ideas. One of the most generous people I have encountered in this respect is John Keeton who repeatedly and generously acknowledges the influence of both Cindy Drozda and David Marks. And, while their influence is obvious in John's work, his own unique stamp is unmistakable.

Personally I think we should just enjoy this and not get too caught up in who's "copying" who. I drifted into that myself at one point and it completely destroyed my enjoyment of the work. Directly copying a design and presenting it, knowingly (that's an important distinction), as your own is another thing entirely. And with the turning world being as close knit as it is, you are not likely to get away with it anyway!

+1 to what David said!

[Robert Henrickson]

When it comes to turned shapes, there is unlikely to be anything truly new. Although I cannot find the verbatim quote at the moment, Stockdale is said to have complained about oriental potters copying his bowl shape a thousand years ago. He was right. I've spent my professional life working with archaeological pottery from a much of the Near East, dating from 5000 BC down to 150 BC or so. I can cite parallels to a great many shapes I see on turning fora, often from two or three different millennia. Many of the shapes referred to as "Southwest" I have seen, handled, and drawn from Iran, Iraq, or Turkey. Oriental ceramics provide yet another vast range of shape possibilities. Whenever I'm lacking for a idea, I can fall back on what I have studied and use, e.g., an Early Phrygian carinated bowl or a Median ledge-rim drinking cup for inspiration or a takeoff point. Surface treatments and decoration are where there is greater freedom.

[Jim Underwood]

I would love to say, "In this piece I have copied David DeCristoforo and made an 18" stand 1/64" thick."

That made me laugh right out loud.

[Guy Belleman]

I have seen creative and wonderous pieces in galleries, but I find that my work is seldom creative, often just small variations from what I have tried before or seen in the many resources I like to peruse, sometimes combinations of ideas gleaned. I often would like folks to add a little clarity on the techniques they used, or the references they used, or the wood and finish used. I must admit I am enjoying the new Woodturner's Catalog I received that lists simply lists the type of wood used in the display pens. I guess, what I am saying is that often we share a picture of our work but don't always take the extra moments to show the pictures up to that point or provide the explanations to those being nurtured by this common communication place. Give credit where credit is due, but the public ground of our work hardly makes any form sacred, and I actually enjoy someone copying me, as it is a sort respect and flattery, but also it is guiding others in this dwindling field amongst the youth.

[Josh Bowman]

I kind of see forums something like the patent system in that the forum disseminates knowledge and ideas so others can improve, add to or build on. I also feel that most ideas are not unique into themselves. Perhaps the combination of them are but not the idea itself. So as Michelle said, if you copy exactly to learn, you should give credit. Heck......If I could only copy exactly, I'd be tickled to give credit!

[Bill White]

Imitation is the finest form of flattery.
Bill

[Doug Herzberg]

I would love to say, "In this piece I have copied David DeCristoforo and made an 18" stand 1/64" thick."

I have a print of Brian Kent's Southwest collection taped to the window behind my lathe. I've never managed to copy one exactly, but I glance up at it frequently when I'm working on a form like that.

[Eric Gourieux]

I have a print of Brian Kent's Southwest collection taped to the window behind my lathe. I've never managed to copy one exactly, but I glance up at it frequently when I'm working on a form like that.

Well, Brian. There you go!

[Mike Cruz]

Has anybody felt this way and hesitated posting a turning that they did?

Would you mind if someone posted something that looked like one of your turnings? Personally, I would be honored. But, that is just me.

Have you avoided posting a turning out of concern that someone will "copy" it?

To answer your questions:

No, I haven't hesitated to post anything that I did that was inspired by anyone else. Then again, I don't believe that I've directly copied anyone's work...Though I'm sure I've done some turnings that I "think" are original, but simply aren't.

If someone was inspired by me (unlikely, but I'll bite), but I wouldn't mind. Of course, if I did inspire them, I'd certainly appreciate a shout out!

Truthfully, yes! But it isn't a turning as such. I do have something that is, well, kind of original. It is "me". It is "mine". I've let a few friends copy it. But I trust they won't take it any further (sell). As someone else mentioned, if you post something in a forum about woodworking, you open yourself up to be copied. I just don't have the $40K or so to get it patent it... Hey, my "thing" isn't the next big thing...it is just my signature.

[Rich Harkrader]

Ecclesiastes 1:9. Nothing new under the sun.

[Dale Gillaspy]

I think it's kind of ironic that many professional turners make a portion of their income demonstrating and teaching their techniques, and then complain when someone copies their work. I agree that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I also agree that there are only so many bowl and hollow form shapes, and you can't really make a good argument that you "own" a bowl shape. That being said, I do think there are limits. Many turners make their living and have built a reputation up on signature styles. I wouldn't turn a bowl from Cottonwood burl or "Mormon Poplar" and put a small pointed bead 1/3 of the way down. That is Mike Mahoney's signature. I'd find some other way to make it my own. I wouldn't turn a hollow form and burn caveman style horses on the top and brand the bottom completely black. That is unique to Molly Winton. Alan Carter does fantastic split bowls. I don't think he has a corner on the market, and if I was going to make one to give as a gift, I don't see a problem with copying that design. If I was going to make something to sell in a gallery or art show, I would find a way to take the concept and make it my own, so no one that sees it would think it was his or that I was copying his work.

What I would do is take those techniques and find a way to make them into something that interests me. Just my opinion, though.

[Jim Burr]

Have you ever turned a bowl? You copied it from the original, ever make a pen? It's copied. The facts are that it's impossible to duplicate another work. That piece of wood no longer exists, the technique can't be duplicated exactly nor can the finish.

[Marc Himes]

I agree with what has been stated above. Give credit where credit is due. Most professional turners that I have heard express themselves on this subject feel that there is a problem when someones work is copied and sold as their own design but have no problem with being emulated otherwise. As for me, I can't even make an exact copy of my own work much less a piece of another turner's. Many of the professional give classes in how to do what they do best. So learning the techniques and using them is very acceptable, in my point of view, as long as credit is given.

[Curt Fuller]

I would say never hesitate to post your work on this forum. It has always been my understanding that this forum is for turners of every skill level and style to post their work. This ain't the Louvre, we're a bunch of friends that like to see what others have been up to. As for copying, I have a few opinions. First, it's almost impossible to copy another person's work. Differences in wood, subtle changes in shape, size, etc make it tough to even make a reasonably close copy. And anyone that gets their feelers hurt by being copied should think about that before they post their work. If someone likes it, they're gonna pay you the ultimate compliment of trying to copy it. But that said, copying is a tool I think we all use as a beginner but eventually outgrow. We eventually take those influences and styles we like, tweek them around, add our own nuances, and develop our own look. But if you are trying to copy something someone else has done, the decent thing to do is to give them credit for their inspiration.

[John Beaver]

I always go back to the quote by Picasso that states "Bad artists copy, good artists steal" (or some variation of that).

As Marc and Curt just said, if you copy someone you should give them credit. If you take an idea and make it your own, then that is good.

Dave Gillaspy said it very well too. A vessel pyrographed with caveman horses is definitively Molly Winton and duplicating that would be ripping her off and shouldn't be done for public consumption. A vessel pyrographed with unique geometric shapes would be stealing her ideas but making it your own.

From a personal perspective, I do demonstrate and share my "wave" techniques. Why should I risk this? Because the woodturning community is extremely cooperative and sharing and I want people to see what I am doing and hopefully make their work better because of it. I want my students to make their own "wave" bowl and display it in their home. I don't want someone to go out and copy my designs and bring them to market, and I just have to hope that most people will be honorable enough to respect that. There is an artist that has chosen to blatantly rip me off, without learning the techniques from me, and when I challenged him on it he told me he can do whatever he wants and doesn't care. To most people he is a hack with no morals (he has ripped off other artists too) and I just have to keep striving to improve and change and stay ahead of him. I am partly flattered, and partly angry but it does damage my reputation some. I worked really hard to develop my techniques and establish them as mine, but eventually someone was bound to copy it and represent it as their own, and I have to accept that risk as part of the process.

[Chip Sutherland]

If I turn something where my design is heavily influenced by someone or something, i am happy to give credit. I have to live with myself. I don't remember ever copying someone's work but I have used techniques of others to help translate my desires.