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View Full Version : 4" Lens upgrade on an Epilog?



Weston Porter
12-29-2013, 7:30 PM
So I've reluctantly switched over from buying a Chinese laser to an Epilog. Right now I'm eyeing either a Mini-24 60w or a Helix 40w. I'd prefer the larger Helix but I'm concerned that 40 watts won't be sufficient for cleanly cutting thicker wood, acrylics and leather.

Anywho, the sales representative is pushing me toward the Helix even though it's a little cheaper. To combat my concerns he recommended a $300 upgrade to a 4" lens which leaves a wider kerf, but cuts thicker substrates.

Has anyone had an experience with that or do you think it would do the trick?

David Somers
12-29-2013, 8:32 PM
Weston,

Folks will likely want to know what thicknesses you are thinking of working with? And if you have some speeds in mind as a minimum that would help them as well. Lower powers will cut through most of what a higher power will cut through, but it will do it slower. And are you in a production environment or more of a hobbyist environment?

Scott Shepherd
12-29-2013, 8:35 PM
I've not found that a 4" lens allows me to cut anything thicker than I could with a 2" lens. I ran some tests about 2 weeks ago on 1/2" thick wood products, MDF, Cherry, and a couple other woods, knowing 1/2" hardwood was a chore to cut. The 2" and 4" made it through exactly the same, left the same finish, etc (charred). I've not found it to be any benefit on acrylic either. That's just my opinion.

Frank Corker
12-29-2013, 8:41 PM
The 4" lens cuts okay, not a fantastic bit of difference. The engraving on acrylic is definitely not as good as with the standard lens, less frosty, on wood it is fine, I have to be honest and say I was actually under impressed with it overall. However, on a plus note, you really can get into deep pieces without any difficulty at all and it's all about having the right tools at the right time for the job, worth having it on your belt, but not essential. In my opinion (it is from my experiences with it which may be different from other peoples experiences) is that the cut was no better than standard lens. I have a 45w, using the standard lens, 1 sp 85 pwr I can cut through 20mm acrylic in one pass (a little rough but it's right the way through), the 4" managed to do the same with no visible difference other than a wider kerf.

matthew knott
12-29-2013, 10:00 PM
Why are you 'reluctantly' changing from Chinese to epilog? I think a 4 inch lens would be better on a machine that had lots more power but at 40 watts you have a uphill battle to cut thick items anyway ! In my experience there's to substitute to power for cutting and more on tap is always useful. I also found cutting wood with the epilog a pain as the encoder strip always got dirty but I guess better extraction would fix that. My advise is get samples done and also be aware that western co2 tend to give more than rated power, there's a good reason for this, if it's sold as a 40 watt laser but gives say 50 watts then if over time it losses 15 % of its power then it's still with in spec. Don't buy a brand new machine that only just does what you need you need a little head room .

Weston Porter
12-29-2013, 10:50 PM
Why are you 'reluctantly' changing from Chinese to epilog?

Reliability, long life, I'm also a stickler for American made products and I plan on moving to a city in Colorado not far from their factory. To afford that I'm okay with limiting myself to a smaller work bed but I don't want to sacrifice power. Hence why I'm considering the even smaller Mini-24 to get 60w. I don't know, 18k for a new Epilog vs 5k for a used Rabbit here where I live seems like an easy decision but I've been prototyping products on a Chinese import at a local maker space for almost a year now and I loathe the amount of tinkering and the limitations of the software.

By your standards, would 60w but enough power?

Weston Porter
12-29-2013, 11:05 PM
Folks will likely want to know what thicknesses you are thinking of working with?

That's hard for me to answer, Matthew further down the page recommended buying a machine with enough head room and that's what I'm thinking about. Right now I cut 1/8 baltic birch on a Chinese import across town, due to the limitations of the machine I haven't been able to cut anything thicker. Can 1/4 ply even be cut without charring? If it can, there's where I'd like to be.


Lower powers will cut through most of what a higher power will cut through, but it will do it slower

Slower is fine with me as long as that doesn't mean charring.


And are you in a production environment or more of a hobbyist environment?

Somewhere between, I want to start a business but right now I'm just prototyping and peddling knickknacks on Etsy and at local markets. I'm aiming for a production environment and I don't particularly want to waste what investments I have on buying another laser cutter down the road. I'd rather buy a quality machine now and downgrade later if my plans fail.

Rich Harman
12-29-2013, 11:45 PM
The 2" and 4" made it through exactly the same, left the same finish, etc (charred). I've not found it to be any benefit on acrylic either. That's just my opinion.

My testing resulted in the same conclusions, except I use a 2.5" lens.

matthew knott
12-30-2013, 3:04 AM
I understand your reasons Weston, good local support can be priceless and I like to support local business if possible, we ended up going down the Chinese route as the epilog rep (who I'm told where really good) got brought out by trotec and another was appointed who where new and had little laser knowledge, so support went down hill. Things might be different now, honestly don't know as the Chinese machine has taken our epilogs place. Personally I like the software rdcam and we never tinker with the machine but I guess everyone's experience is different. One thing on your favour is lasers seem to hold their price very well so changing you mind won't cost the earth and the epilog price seems like a very good one, how much extra is it to get what you really want? I would think 80 watts with a bigger bed is where I'd want to be

Weston Porter
12-30-2013, 3:33 AM
how much extra is it to get what you really want? I would think 80 watts with a bigger bed is where I'd want to be

Well the highest wattage on the Helix is 75 and that's pretty unattainable at 25k. The 40 watt I'm looking at now is 17k.

matthew knott
12-30-2013, 12:19 PM
Well if your mainly cutting then power is the key, what power laser are you using now? Are you going to use this to high speed engraving as that's where the better western machines excel ! Probably be worse to buy an underpowered quality machine and make do,compared to a cheap high power Chinese IMHO ! It's a shame budget gets in the way of things !! I think the honest answer is a 4inch lens is not going to help much if any

Mike Null
12-30-2013, 12:31 PM
I agree with the others about the 4" lens but I would offer a bit of caution about cutting "thicker" woods in general. 60 watts or even 75 watts is not going to produce a clean cut on 1/2" or thicker wood. The laser simply isn't the tool for that job.

Dave Sheldrake
12-30-2013, 2:09 PM
Power gets counter productive after a while, on the 200 watt GSI unit I can cut 1/2" material but it still looks aweful, lasers are great up to 1/4" or even 3/8" but above that edge quality suffers and speeds become fractions of slow unless you use huge numbers of wattage.

All the stories you hear about "I cut 25mm MDF really quick and it looks great" are just that....stories.Yes you can cut it but nowhere near commercial quality standards.

RF lasers generally have a better quality beam profile so will cut better than the same power DC glass tube but that does come at a price.

A 4" lens still has the same incident power being fired at it but due to the bigger spot size the power density will be lower leading to straighter but slower cuts in theory. Doesn't always play out that way though as lens quality also makes a difference as does a number of other factors. The sales rep is miss-leading you, it doesn't cut thicker material unless you add more power from your source.

For cutting a 35 watt RF source is going to perform around the same level as a 60 watt Chinese DC source.

In your position I'd go with big power Chinese and see how it pans out, if the work doesn't arrive then you won't be $17k out of pocket.

cheers

Dave

Weston Porter
12-30-2013, 3:24 PM
I appreciate the valuable advice, from all of you. I'll give the Chinese laser some more thought, 18k is a lot for 40w and it doesn't sound like that 4" lense is worth while. I don't need to cut 1/2 inch wood with a laser, I've got a cnc router I just didn't know if it was possible with a 75 watt laser. It would have been nice since my router is slow as hell. I can contentedly cut only 1/8 sheets though, my concern now is thick and/or soft leather but I can make a road trip to the Epilog store with some samples.

Dave Sheldrake
12-30-2013, 3:37 PM
Hiya Weston,

$9k will get you a 2.5m x 1.5m flatbed Chinese machine with a 150 watt tube importing direct. Plus the additional import fee's postage etc but under $12k at worst. Machines like that open a lot of possibilities up (I have 2 of them).

cheers

Dave

Mike Null
12-30-2013, 3:47 PM
I am one who would go for the domestic version. I have no time for fixing a machine when I haven't even used it and that is the case with the vast majority of Chinese machines. Negotiate with Epilog--that price seems high.

Dan Hintz
12-30-2013, 6:17 PM
it doesn't sound like that 4" lense is worth while.

I wasn't going to say anything, but since you brought it up again...

I hope that $300 "upgrade" charge was for a 4" lens in addition to the stock 2" lens. If he was simply giving you a single 4" lens and not the 2", that fee is bogus. It costs them practically nothing to include one lens over another, and to charge a fee for doing otherwise is milking the cow.

matthew knott
12-30-2013, 8:46 PM
A Domestic version is without a doubt the best option as long as 1: It can do the job 2:You can afford it,
if 1 & 2 cant both be satisfied then its a no go.
If you negotiate a better price or get more watts for your buck then things look much better

Phillip Bogle
01-01-2014, 1:51 AM
I got my Epilog Helix 24 last May. It was about a month down the road that I hit a big regret. I got a 60 watt and wish I had bought the biggest, highest wattage unit available. The hardest job is the profitable job you turned away, due the equipment in adequacy. I have made profit since the first month and my business has expanded. Have not had any trouble with the Epilog so I can not tell you much about service. I just wished I had the power and size, when I need it.

Phillip Bogle
Tillamook County Oregon

brian saban
01-01-2014, 3:34 AM
IMHO it really matters what it is your looking to do and what your level of expertise is. I cut 1/4in and glue the boards together when needed, If you have the skill, just get yourself a descent planer and joiner, you'll save money and you won't see any difference. again thats with hard wood obviously not plywood. Again before blowing tons of money, decide what your main use for it is going to be and see what routes can get you there, Also I was in a possession similar to yours and found mine 6 months used for a lot less than new and this thing still smelled new when I got it, the women did 1 cut (during her first test when it arrived) as I could see from the honeycomb and even threw in the rotary and a printer/scanner. There are so many who buy then give up and never use them, look before your buy. Alot of good deals out there.

Ross Moshinsky
01-01-2014, 2:23 PM
I just want to say you really shouldn't form definitive opinions on community used tools. You have a lot of people touching them and most of them don't know what they are doing. I'm not trying to sell you on one machine or another but it's definitely a factor to consider.

As for the lens debate, there is a company in Rhode Island that sells lenses for very competitive prices. Look there if you want to save morethan a few bucks.

Ross Moshinsky
01-01-2014, 2:27 PM
I got my Epilog Helix 24 last May. It was about a month down the road that I hit a big regret. I got a 60 watt and wish I had bought the biggest, highest wattage unit available. The hardest job is the profitable job you turned away, due the equipment in adequacy. I have made profit since the first month and my business has expanded. Have not had any trouble with the Epilog so I can not tell you much about service. I just wished I had the power and size, when I need it.

Phillip Bogle
Tillamook County Oregon

You made a $25k proft your first month with the laser? If that's the case why not just sell the thing and buy a bigger machine?

Larry Bratton
01-01-2014, 3:12 PM
I am 6 years in with my 40watt Epilog EXT. Advice in the beginning was to get a smaller table and more power. As has been stated, the 40 will cut the same thing as a 60 just slower. My salvation has been the big table. I can process 24x36 pieces of wood or acrylic without stopping. The service from Epilog, even after 6 years, has just been outstanding. I'm not much of a tinkerer and I don't really want to have to mess with a machine very much. I just want it to work and the Epilog fills the bill for me. I paid a lot of money for this machine when I bought it, but I retired the cost of it the first year or so I owned it. I have never owned or have any experience with Chinese machines, my southern English is not that good, but my Chinese is awful, so I would probably have difficulty with one of those. I'm pretty sure if I had it to do again, I would probably do the same thing . More power is nice, but the working space is more important to me.