Hand Saw Sharpening files?

[maximillian arango]

I have been looking for hand sharpening and I've seen the ones from Lee Valley (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=69854&cat=1,320,43072,43089,69854) which looks like a great sets but I can't justify spending that much on files. I have right now in my amazon cart a cheapo set (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NPUKYS/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER) and was wondering is it worth going for the Lee Valley set or can I get by with the cheapo set. I am holding off till next week since I will be going to the met life stadium flee market and a few others in Manhattan to see if I can find any old ones.


~max

[David Weaver]

saw files are something you have to buy clean vintage or new high quality.

Don't buy files before you have saws that you need to sharpen. The needle file set that you showed from amazon is something that you want to avoid buying.

[maximillian arango]

What would be vintage brands to look for, new high quality would be out of my range. I'm guessing that LV is a bargain after seeing the other file set prices and the LV set is nicely organized to tpi.

[James Tibbetts]

How many different tpi saws will you need to sharpen? Check here (http://www.vintagesaws.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=13_16) to find a range of file size to tpi. You may only need one or two for a good while.

[Bill Houghton]

I understand that Slav Jelesijevich, who can be found hanging out on WoodNet (do a search on his name there), has and sells a vast array of rasps and files. He might be able to fix you up, once you know what sizes you need.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

There can be a false economy in buying a huge set of files - how many different saws to you need to sharpen? What condition are they in? I often start on a poor-condition saw with a cheaper file from Sears and then move to the nicer files for the last pass and subsequent sharpenings. I have the whole set from Lee Valley, but honestly, with the handful of saws I have, I can get by with the same handful of files for most of my needs. Depending on what you have to sharpen, you could very well do better by buying boxes of the few sizes you need - you get fewer sizes, but can pay much less per file and get just the sizes you need.

Needle files are handy, and often a cheap one does the job fine, but since you're talking about sharpening, most of the files in the set you link aren't triangular or three-square files, so aren't really suited to sharpening handsaws, and even the appropriately shaped files in the "needle file" size are only really suited for the finest pitched teeth, and with finer toothed saws like that, I actually prefer a nicer quality file, where-as with something like my larger rip-toothed saw, I'm a little more likely to let a cheaper file do the job.

The price of the Lee Valley files (at least looking at the per-file price) isn't terrible in my opinion, considering I've gotten much more use out of those compared to the files I can buy locally.

[maximillian arango]

I have bought 4 in the past 2 weeks I expect to have 16+ or so by the end of spring so I would rather spend more now for a set rather then buy them as I need.


I have a few more questions:

What type do I need? diamond? steal?

Is their a certain style I need? American pattern, Swiss pattern or any others?

[maximillian arango]

After what you guys have said I am just going to take my piggy bank to td next week and get the LV set just seems like a better value than buying individually.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Go for steel over diamond. In my experience, I wouldn't worry too much about pattern; but I just tend to grab what's available.

Unless you're picking up one every TPI or something, I still think there's a false economy in buying a set of every sized file - these are eventually disposable things, you'll wear through them, and depending on how much work you need to put into a saw and how nice a file you need, you might find yourself going through them faster than you expect. Just keeping a saw in good shape sharp and they can last a while if you buy nice files.

I have the LV set - I've used most of them, but not on saws.

If you're trying to squeeze every penny or find yourself sharpening a whole lot, you'll save more money in the long run buying a box or in bulk of the same size than buying one of each size. If you look around at the charts for what size file to use, there's a fair amount of overlap, and for initial roughing in of saws in bad shape, you can get by with a larger size and then go back and put the final edge on with the smaller file.

In all reality, I think I basically use one size file for my rip saws, one size for my crosscut and miter saw, and one for my joinery saws. I haven't had great luck with the newer Nicholson files (there's plenty of discussion of that here) but I've had good luck with the cheaper files from Sears, at least with the intial touch up of old tools that come into the shop.

I think Tools For Working Wood had a slightly better deal on the Grobet files last time I checked. I like them. I stumbled across a couple of old red-tang simonds at a flea market and love those the best so far.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

After what you guys have said I am just going to take my piggy bank to td next week and get the LV set just seems like a better value than buying individually.

I think if you add up the cost (just going from LV) you only save a like four bucks buying the whole set, vs each file individually plus the tool roll. I've got the whole set, and I really like having it - never know when a file might come in handy, and having another size up or down is handy if you've totally trashed the next one over, but dropping an unneeded size might still be cheaper!

[Chris Vandiver]

American pattern taper saw files are what you're after and are what is commonly sold as files for sharpening western saws. It is probably better to buy the sizes you need now rather than buying a set of different sizes, many of which you may never need or use. Look for Bacho brand. Good files at a pretty fair price. Buy a box of the size you need. Lie Nielsen also carry some good files. For your first time sharpening a saw, start with a large tooth rip, like a 5ppi. It's easier to learn that way. There are a few good tutorials on the web for sharpening saws. I like this one; http://home.grics.net/~weir/saw_restoration.html

Good luck

[maximillian arango]

If you're trying to squeeze every penny or find yourself sharpening a whole lot, you'll save more money in the long run buying a box or in bulk of the same size than buying one of each size. If you look around at the charts for what size file to use, there's a fair amount of overlap, and for initial roughing in of saws in bad shape, you can get by with a larger size and then go back and put the final edge on with the smaller file.

I know most likely I will end up not using each one but I would like to have each size in case and after I see which ones I will be using most I plan on buying the more used sizes in bulk. On top of that the saws I do have are all different tpi so it isn't a big deal getting different files.

[Kim Malmberg]

Maximillian
Please feel free to buy what you want and to what cost and value you want. But as several others in this and other related threads have said you will only be wasting your money if you buy too many and too cheap saw files. I started filing saws three years ago and I have now logged several hundred hours in which time I have tried just about any file brand I've seen. When I buy saw files nowadays I only buy good files. Like most others I strive to find vintage NOS files buy if not available I buy modern Bahco files which in my opinion are the best saw files being made today. They are not as good as the old Nicholsons or Öberg's but compared to the junk most companies produce the Bahco files are well worth the money and they last rather well.
As far as filing a wide range of teeth configurations is concerned you don't have to have one file for every TPI. With three different sizes you will be able to cover most saws. But what you will find out is that you need several files of the same size as your files will wear.
The only reason I still buy cheap and poor files is that some of the saws I file have rusty teeth and might need so much reshaping that I prefer to sacrifice cheap files for tasks like these and keep my good ones for finishing the teeth.

[David Weaver]

What would be vintage brands to look for, new high quality would be out of my range. I'm guessing that LV is a bargain after seeing the other file set prices and the LV set is nicely organized to tpi.

Nicholson (US Made)
Heller
Simonds (USA)
Grobet (*don't* buy anything labeled "Grobet USA", it's actually indian production)
Pferd
Bahco
Disston

It's uncommon, for me at least, to find much in vintage files that aren't used up or that the sellers don't want more than new price for. Files remain one of those things that I don't buy until I have a saw that requires a specific file size, and I buy them in quantity only in sizes where I have saws that need to be reconditioned. Regular saw maintenance should be very sparing of files.

[maximillian arango]

So this is a silly question do all brands follow a standard size system that have been posted in the links through out the thread? I am mostly just concern of buying the wrong file and ruining a saw, example, I but a "7" slim taper" file of one brand but the same exact thing "7" slim taper" may be really like a "7" regular taper." Am I worried about nothing? What sizes should I start with I have finished cleaning up a the saws I have bought are very different, logging saw down to a very fine back saw.

Thank you for the responses so far

[David Weaver]

The biggest difference when you're filing a saw (among brands of files and sizes) will be how thick the corners of the files are. For that reason, you will want to be consistent with the corner size (which might force consistency with brand and size). Any variances in size between one brand's 7" slim, for example, should be non-existent, but even if there were a little difference, you'd want to be more concerned with the fatness of the corners on the files, especially for saws with big teeth. It will make a much bigger difference in maintenance sharpening of saws.

I don't know what you mean by a log saw, like an old disston crosscut log saw that's about 35" or more long? Carve that out of the discussion for now and keep to saws intended for carpentry and cabinetmaking, the process for sharpening a log saw is different. As much as it may feel less than ideal to you, I think the lee valley kit is smart money. It'll give you a chance to figure out what sizes you really like to use on specific saws, and there really is no great economy out there for saw files otherwise unless you manage to chance on a table full of surplus files at a flea market. I haven't done such a thing - files rust very easily, and old files that you find in the wild are likely to be worn or rusty or both.

Anyone else will generally expect to be paid for their files.

If you have saws in the 5 1/2 (rip) to, say, 10 tpi range, you could track down a 6 slim and 6 xx slim mexican nicholsons at home depot just to get a feel for things. IIRC, the two of those would be about 9 bucks and though I wouldn't call the latest mexican nicholson's I've found a direct replacement for vintage files, I've managed to refurbish two saws in the last several months with one mexican nicholson, each.

Time at the bench with those two will show you why you want something finer than 6xx for dovetail saws, and why you may want coarser than 6 slim for rip saws.

All of that said, if you decide to chance it by buying three square or taper saw files, make sure that you don't buy double cut files, they must be single cut files. Leave the diamond files behind, they are only useful when dealing with something too hard for a saw file.

[Mark Draper]

here`s a link http://www.dillonsupply.com/products/HAND%20TOOLS/FILES/CANTSAW%20FILES.aspx

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Aren't cantsaw files a different shape than what we regularly use for sharpening Western-style saw teeth?

[Steve Voigt]

Aren't cantsaw files a different shape than what we regularly use for sharpening Western-style saw teeth?

I think Mark must have been referencing the comment about logging saws, since cantsaw files are used to sharpen the big crosscut saws (not that I've actually done it, I just read about it).

[maximillian arango]

Hold on I'll load a photo of said "logging saw"

[maximillian arango]

said saw

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/arangov3/Tools/20131216_175457_zps009be280.jpg (http://s1269.photobucket.com/user/arangov3/media/Tools/20131216_175457_zps009be280.jpg.html)



The reason why I bought this is because I would like to be able to break my own lumber down... eventually.

[David Weaver]

You mean like break it down from a log? That saw will cross cut a wet log, but you'll need something that will rip.

[maximillian arango]

That exactly what I want to do, I have a few friends with trees down on their property that are a good 3 feet wide that I would like to try to get to size.

I've got 2 rip saws and 1 cross cut saw that I am just about finished removing the rust that will need sharpening.

[David Weaver]

If you're going to break down that lumber by hand, you're going to want to either make a chainsaw mill or split the logs. The low dollar method would be the latter, but it's a proven method as long as you don't mind quartersawn lumber and a delay between initial splitting/riving and final sizing.

You could quarter a 3 foot diameter log and use a chainsaw mill, but if you want to go big with something like that, it will require a saw that can swing a big bar, which means big money.

You don't want to cut that by hand. It's a two man job, and it requires a pit saw. You will be able to manage the cross cutting with a saw like you're showing for the split logs, but you're not going to file that saw with taper saw files. I don't know if you'll find many on here who file log saws, but there are videos online (both of competent and incompetent people filing log saws). It's my opinion you want to find an old text with diagrams that shows you the proper profile for the teeth on that saw so you don't create more work for yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4YBOk-JN3c

(note the teeth on the pitsaw - rip profile and enormous - I don't think you'd want to saw a 3 foot diameter log even with those).

[george wilson]

I haven't re read this thread,but yesterday I spoke to a good craftsman in Williamsburg about the Grobet USA (India) files. The craftsman said they look fine,but do not last as long as the old Grobets did. I opt to not buy India Grobets.

[David Weaver]

Care has to be taken in expectations. If I can get a good picture of the most recent batches of india grobets, they no longer even look fine. A couple of mine are hourglass shape, and the sides are too far from consistent (even the thicknesses of the files aren't that consistent). Some have edges so thin that the teeth are already broken off of them, and then other edges that are thick with almost no teeth on them.

For whatever reason, the quality of the india files that grobet makes has slipped in the last year or two. If you can find a box in person and they all look good, they're OK, but I wouldn't buy any file boxes online from amazon, etc. Mine came from b2b on amazon, and they were bad. I can't remember exactly what they indicated, but it was something along the lines of "they thought they had caught all of the bad ones, but hadn't".

I wouldn't be surprised to see production moved to china.

The first india grobets I got match what you heard yesterday - they were decent middle of the road files, and good given they came from india, but they're no longer a safe bet.

[Kim Malmberg]

The first india grobets I got match what you heard yesterday - they were decent middle of the road files, and good given they came from india, but they're no longer a safe bet.

For reason unknown to me, my previous comment seems to appear as last and out of anyone's reach, but I will repeat what I said in an earlier post in this thread. If you are looking for decent modern saw files, don't buy Nicholson made in Mexico, but choose Bahco instead. They aren't as good as the old Öberg files (bought up by Sandvik and later assimilated through a merger with Bahco) used to be, but they are the very best modern saw files that money can by.

[maximillian arango]

Dose the money I spend on the better quality Bahco save me money in the long run? Aside from consistence what makes this better then lets say a Swiss made Grobet file?

[David Weaver]

swiss made grobet files are good files, and if they weren't, you'd have plenty of leverage to return them. I've never seen them look bad like the last couple of dozen grobet usa files I got looked.

Bahco are my first choice, too, I don't know if I said that above or not. They are wonderfully uniform, from corner to corner and file to file. The trouble with them in the US is that I don't know where you can get them at a decent price in a box of less than 10 each size. That doesn't deter me because I have some saws to refresh and I have a good dry place for files. If I had already sharp saws and just wanted to have files on hand to maintain them for the next five years or so, I wouldn't want that many of them.

Plus, buying in boxes of ten is going to cost between $50 and $80 or so per box of 10.

In terms of what lasts longer per dollar, it really depends on circumstances. The best nicholson mexico files I've gotten may last 2/3rds as long as a bahco, and the worst, 1/4th as long. If you run into a saw with a hard tempered area, it can burnish the teeth even on a good file in a real hurry.

[maximillian arango]

Will I run across Bahco knockoffs? I was on amazon and saw a 10 pack (http://www.amazon.com/Bahco-4-Inch-4-187-04-2-0-Extra-10-Pack/dp/B0001P0OAU/ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1388500639&sr=1-6&keywords=bahco+file) for sub 15 dollars, 2 actually. Just in case someone cant see it on the handle says it says "Bahco, Osers(guessing on that one righting isn't very fine), Portugal followed by the model number.

[David Weaver]

No, bahco portugal are the real things. I suspect that's labeled as a box, but it's probably a single file. You can try ordering a 4 x slim (which you can get away with using on pretty small saw teeth, despite some information to the contrary out there), but I'd imagine you'll get a single file for $11 shipped.

We have run into this issue on amazon before, where a seller mislabels a single file as a box, ships a single file, and then does nothing for the person who bought the file other than tell them "tough luck, it was a listing error". It happened with a group of folks on here a couple of years ago with nicholsons. Amazon does not require a seller to honor a listing error, either.

The item weight is a giveaway, also (it's the weight of one file). you could email them. Their 6 inch files are $11 each, likely they are looking for about the same for a 5 or 4 inch file.

[Tom Vanzant]

David W...
Re: Indian Grobet files... "They said they had caught all the bad ones, but they hadn't". Yeah they did.... you're the proud new owner.

[maximillian arango]

:( your right it most likely is one

I'm going to try to get Bahco ones. I'm going to go find out what tpi I have.