couple questions re: new workshop

[Russ Ambrose]

we’re building a new shop and have a few questions and figure this is the best place to get some great insight. brief background. 24x30 pole structure with insulated concrete slab. exterior will be vinyl siding over OSB. inside, we’ll run 2x4s between the posts and use that to hang drywall. we’re in lower-mid Michigan so we’ll insulate the walls (and ceiling) to the greatest extent possible.

1. sidewall height. I figured 9ft sidewalls would be sufficient, but our builder (also a woodworker) is adamant that I should get 10ft sidewalls. while making the building a little shorter would shave a small amount off the cost, my bigger concerns are (1) how much more will it cost to heat a taller building and (2) will I need more/stronger lighting (because the lights will be that much further from my workspace). are my concerns legit and/or outweighed by the benefits of having 10 foot sidewalls? thoughts?


2. heat. considered radiant heat in the concrete slab, but the cost (cost to run water to the shop as well as the cost of the radiant heat set up) just outweighed the benefit for us. when I’m not working in there, I only need to keep the shop at around 45 degrees or so...and only around 60 degrees when I’m in there working. at this point, am planning on getting a Reznor (propane fueled) unit heater that draws the combustion air from outside and also power vents the exhaust outside. any concerns about this type of heater? what size heater would you get for a 720 sq ft shop (I was thinking a 45,000 BTU unit would be more than enough)?

BTW, the DC (3hp cyclone, vented outside, and in a separate room/enclosure) and the heater will be at opposite ends of one of the 30 foot walls.


3. speaking of dust collection...anybody locate their DC outside? I’ll have a small overhang on one side of the shop (under which I’ll store rough lumber). I could put it under that and build a little room around it for weather protection. I’m not sure I like the idea of putting it outside, but the space and especially the noise reduction inside the shop would be nice. thoughts?


thanks for any thoughts, suggestions, or insight.

[phil harold]

I have in my house, 2700 sqft, runs on a EMB-S-9 mini boiler 30,000 btu http://www.electromn.com/gen/emb.htm
radiant heat works good good with high ceiling since you re only keepin things warm near the floor,
once the water is in the pipes/system you dont need to fill it up afterwards
okay you may have to add a little to keep your 10-15psi in the beginning of the heating season (this year I did not have too)
I would go 10-12 foot ceilings once you start hanging lights and duct-work you start losing height clearance

[Brian Libby]

Go with at least 10 foot ceilings. I am converting a pole barn in the sprig and my ceilings will be 12 foot. I plan on having my DC outside of the shop with only the filter in the shop-no heat loss.

[Ole Anderson]

Tall is good, but I would be happy to swap 9 foot ceilings for my 7'-8" ones. I feel 9' is plenty if you recess your lights and stick your ductwork in the attic. Now if you insist on flipping a 12' board floor to ceiling, then you need to consider something taller.

[marty shultz]

Put the DC and the air compressor outside. I recommend the 10' ceilings. Consider skylights too. I love mine.

[Jim Andrew]

I did the cyclone on the outside wall, and built around it. 45000 will be plenty. If they make a 35000 it would be big enough, just takes longer to heat up. My building I stood studs up inside the nailers on the side, and put dow board in between the nailers, and batts between the studs. I'd rather have metal siding than vinyl.

[William C Rogers]

I would go with the 10 foot ceiling. My previous shop had 10 foot ceilings and it was adequate. I would still occasionally hit a light with a board. I just built a new shop with 12 foot ceilings and I have installed radiant heat in the floor. My previous shop had propane heating and it was ok, but the previous shop the concrete was not insulated. Insulating the concrete there is a noticeable difference. I can compare because I am still building the house and do not yet have the radiant heat running. Not sure why you chose 2 X4 vs. 2 X 6 for the walls. With 2 X 6 you can install R19 in the walls and the 2 X 6 will match the post ( assuming you are using 6 X 6 post ). If you are going to use drywall, think of where you might hang things such as cabinets, shelves, etc and put blocking in between the studs. I an blocking my house using the cut offs from the framing. For the shop I just went with OSB for the walls.

Bill

[Todd Burch]

Can you even buy a 9' stud? I'm going with 12' sidewalls.

Todd

[Ed Weiser]

Russ,
Last year we built a new barn and I put my workshop there. The workshop is 20 x 24 with 10'5" ceilings. The slab is not insulated but hard troweled concrete with an epoxy finish. The walls are framed within the posts (pole barn) with 2 x 6. The walls and ceiling are insulated with sprayed closed cell urethane foam to about R20 (about 3 inches). I have a 40,000 BTU electric fan heater with an after market digital thermostat. Even in our coldest months (it was -19 F a few weeks ago) the heating bill for the entire barn (including a similarly insulated tack room) is always less than $80 per month. On the walls I sheathed with 1/2 inch AC plywood that was finished with sprayed catalyzed lacquer. Lessons learned:
1) The ceiling height is the lowest I would make. While increased volume does marginally increase heating cost, insulation and vapor barrier (if you don't spray foam) are much more important. In a relatively small shop, the increased ceiling height makes for less claustrophobia and more wall space to hang cabinets, supplies, etc.
2) The electric heat costs may be more expensive in other parts of the country but the installation is quite cheap. Overall I spent with the thermostat less than $400. It takes a lot of added efficiency to make the ROI better for this approach.
3) Plywood on the walls is nice because you can hang almost anything anywhere (and I have).
4) Lighting is critical. I did the ceiling with white painted dry wall and have 48" T5HO enclosed (dust and moisture proof) fixtures. Measured the intensity at 100+ fc at bench height. At my age this makes a huge difference.
5) All machine tools (or anything else that rests on the floor) are on casters. It's amazing how much of a difference this makes to how much space you don't need.
6) Look critically at what you keep in your heated shop space. Anything that can be frozen if it gets cold but kept dry elsewhere (and you don't use every day like bulk wood storage) is not worth wasting shop space.
7) Less workshop size is not always a disadvantage. It forces you to keep your shop neater and cleaner and makes the footsteps from one workstation to another easier and quicker. I came from over 2000 sq ft and do not regret the downsizing. I had to sell some machines in favor of combo models but I got better quality in the exchange.
All of the above is based on a one-man hobby/retirement shop and may not be true for everyone everywhere.
Hope this helps.
Good luck with your build!

[Russ Ambrose]

Ed,

i also have several machines on casters which i keep "in a corner" out of the way when not in use (basically everything but the TS). how difficult (or not) is it to roll your machines across concrete? also, how hard is a concrete floor on your back? my current shop has an industrial tile floor which i really like. i'm still debating whether to put a floor in the new space or just stick with the insulated slab and epoxy it. thanks

[Ed Weiser]

Russ,
The concrete insulation is something we decided against given that overall this is a barn building and the slab is surrounded on three sides by even more concrete. The shop slab seems to stay about 50 degrees year round which actually helps during the summer as I didn't do A/C. The dogs come into the shop to get cool when it's 90 degrees outside. It is essential that you hard trowel (very smooth) the concrete to get the right finish for heavy machines on casters. My vertical mill is, with its stand, over 1100 lbs and it rolls with very little effort. As far as my back is concerned, at machines where I stand, I made sure to raise their working height (I'm 6'1") and place comfort mats in front of each. At cleaning time the mats go outside and the whole shop is easy to sweep/vacuum. BTW, I bought a central vac unit on eBay and piped the entire shop (use the "correct" central vac PVC pipe and fittings, not schedule 40) and the barn overall. The power unit is in the barn central aisle and you can't even hear it in the shop. (I spent less for this in total than I did for a Festool vac several years ago.) What shoes people wear in shops is highly overlooked. With a concrete floor wear comfortable shoes with a significant sole that accommodates standing, i.e. not flip flops or cheap tennis shoes. This will help your back immensely and if the floor gets a little cold, you won't notice. Furthermore, when you drop something on your foot, you have a fighting chance to avoid injury.
Just my $0.02.

[Ray Newman]

Go with 2x6 as it will allow greater insulating efficiency. Energy costs are not going to get any cheaper and you live in an area with cold winters. My shed (30x36') has 2x6 with the max amount of insulation possible. Very comfortable in the Winter and WA does not get as cold as MI. The maximum amount of insulation is the cheapest route over the long haul. Shop heat is a propane Hot Dawg and it works vey well. Thermostat is set a50 degrees in the winter. Going on its 12 year of service w/o problems.

Outside venting of dust: in winter, you'll loose warm air. My Oneida cyclone has a filter and returns heated air to the shop. Cyclone is very efficient and filter traps what little dust is not caught by the cyclone.

Ten foot walls are probably the minimum for ease of moving materials. My shop has 10' dry wall pained white ceiling, with4 bulb t-8 fixtures. Walls painted white and shop is bright.

Install electrical outlets and switches 52" above floor so sheet goods will not block access.

My former residence and shop had skylights. While the allowed light in, they were a heat sink and a ceiling leak waiting to happen. Speaking of light, install windows high up on walls to permit more usable space below and to keep out a miscreant's eyes. Well insulated windows and doors are cheaper in the long run.

If your residence has an alarm system, tie the shop in. As police friend once told me others: "tools like firearms, once stolen and you'll never see them again."

[george newbury]

10' is a minimum if you deal with any thing 8' long. I've a workshop with 12' and that's great. I also have one with sloping 10' down to about 8.5'. It's a little low.

[Drew Weyandt]

I recently bought a dustek whispurr series dust collector and we installed it outside. Absolutely loved it being outside in the summer but in the winter, it sucks the heat right out of the building.

[Jaromir Svoboda]

I built a new shop 3 years ago.I do have 10' tall walls with scissors trusses, celling is 12.5' in middle of shop.I would go 10' or more for walls.
You don't need to have water in your shop for radiant heating.You have to fill it with antifreeze (it is blue color).I did all by myself,it is easy.

[Jeff Erbele]

I can't remember ever hearing someone say, my doors are too wide or too tall, my shop is too big or my ceiling is too high, but I've heard the opposite.

I've owned houses with garages turned into workshops with 7', 8', 9' and 10' ceilings. Presently we are building a new house with a 9' foot basement, allowing for the support beams for a finished 8' ceiling and 10' ceilings on the main floor and in the garage and workshop. I can get by with an 8' garage, 9' is an great improvement and 10' is ideal for my needs. It also accommodates an 8 foot high overhead door.

In a 24 x 30, the difference between a 9' and 10' ceiling is a increase of 720 cubic feet or 11.1% increase.
What does that mean in BTU’s? Not much…
According to this Mr Heater Reference
http://www.mrheater.com/upload/10-27-08%20MH%202008%20NT%20Heat%20Guide.pdf

Nine foot ceiling at 6480 cf or ten foot ceiling at 7200 cf, you are going to want to round up to the next higher standard size heater or furnace which is a 45k heater on this chart, the same as you estimated.

Living in Michigan you may want to pay attention to and consider if their temperature rise of 42 degrees C is acceptable for your worst conditions.
– 21 C to + 21 C or
– 6 F to + 70 F
If you think you may need a greater temperature rise, move right on the chart to a larger heater.
You probably do not need to heat the shop over 70F, but your coldest days may be considerably colder than – 6F. Alternatively you could run a second, auxiliary heating unit if the need is infrequent.
Personally I would prefer and buy what I need plus a little extra capacity up front as it would the most economical over time with the least hassle and disappoint later.

Lighting
In the top menu, in the articles tab there is a great article
Lighting the Small Workshop - by Jack Lindsey
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/content.php?146-Lighting-the-Small-Workshop-by-Jack-Lindsey
Jack assumes a 10' ceiling and unless I missed it does not mention compensating for higher or lower ceilings. I read the complete article some time ago, but just skimmed it this time, looking for ceiling height.

It is interesting to note, both Jack and the Mr Heater reference assume a 10' shop ceiling height.

When building I always try to think in at least 2' increments and preferably 4', as it is more economical with less materiel waste and more efficient with less cuts required. Its for the same reasons you are building a 24 x 30, instead of a 25 x 29 or a 23 x 31 shop. With 9' ceilings you have to buy 10' material, saw every piece and have a 1' drop / waste piece. Granted you can use some of them someplace for some things, but the total board feet of scrap is huge, by design and could be avoided; could be used to build a more spacious structure overall with little added cost.

On that note, the whole idea of a pole structure does not seem like the best design in my estimation as you are going to build a pole frame, then line the space with 2 x 4's for sheathing / sheet material inside and out, 2 x 4' and/or batten/ nailers as applicable. It sounds like a frame inside a frame work, a bit redundant, when the 2 x 4's alone could be the frame.

You have a concern about heating cost and rightfully so. The heating cost is not so great. Reheating the same space over and over again is. Insulation is an investment that pays back continually over time. I would skip the poles and 2 x 4's and invest that money in 2 x 6's and insulation. I also think it would be an easier build, but that is just me. I'm not fond of vinyl siding either but I'm not funding this project. I've seen so much cheap quality, faded, broken, warped, bad installations, wavy, and hail damage, my desire for it is squelched.

I would definitely move the DC to an outside enclosed room. First for noise reduction in the shop and secondly for ease of cleaning, keeping the dust outside. Well, considering the heating concerns with the caveat that the room is insulated and with the heated dusty air going into the DC be returned to the shop as make-up air. The room could be within the shop floor space, with an outside access door for cleaning and servicing the DC.


Those are my thoughts and opinions; use what is helpful and applies to your needs, budget, preferences and situation.

[Jim Andrew]

Have to agree with Jeff, much rather build a shop on a foundation rather than with poles. Only reason I used a pole building is that it was here when I bought this place. The old building was sound or I would have torn it down. Still wish I had torn it down and set the building east to west with a lot more south facing windows. You can buy precut studs for 8, 9, or 10' walls. I agree about the 4' measurements. As far as the 9' walls, use precut studs, 4x8 waferboard for boxing and add a 12" strip around the top. Non issue. Think I would rather have a 10' ceiling though. I have 9' in my shop and it is ok, but have to pay attention when handling sheets.

[Jeff Erbele]

Have to agree with Jeff, much rather build a shop on a foundation rather than with poles. Only reason I used a pole building is that it was here when I bought this place. The old building was sound or I would have torn it down. Still wish I had torn it down and set the building east to west with a lot more south facing windows. You can buy precut studs for 8, 9, or 10' walls. I agree about the 4' measurements. As far as the 9' walls, use precut studs, 4x8 waferboard for boxing and add a 12" strip around the top. Non issue. Think I would rather have a 10' ceiling though. I have 9' in my shop and it is ok, but have to pay attention when handling sheets.

I did not know that 9' studs were available. Its been a long while since I looked and I never looked for nine footers, ever. So that makes my earlier discussion on that topic null & void. Forgive my ignorance please. I learned something.

I am very familiar with pole buildings. We had several on the farm & ranch I grew up on in ND. So did every farm & ranch across the region & beyond as it was the most economical solution for cattle shelter and machinery storage affording great protection from the elements. ...but

I don't know that it is the best or most economical solution for a insulated and heated workshop. Understanding, I'm not building one, nor running the numbers, much less plan to operate in it for the next many years. I just don't understand the reason for the framing selection and scheme given the objective and end state.

[Matt Marsh]

I have to agree with Jeff and Jim, why build a pole building if you're planning from the get-go to finish it inside? In the long run you'll spend as much or more money, a lot more time and hassle insulating/finishing the interior, then end up with a less efficient building anyway.