Need a good way to break down sheet goods

[Frederick Skelly]

Hi folks!
Merry Christmas to all of you! Hope youre getting in a bit of shop time (or soon will)!

I found a gap in my tool set, or maybe just my SKILL set, yesterday. If you know a good answer, can you please help? Im looking for an affordable tool (less than $200-300), a jig or a technique that will let me break down plywood into SQUARE pieces.

I have an ancient contractor saw with a 52" fence. But that wont help when the plywood is (or gets) out of square. I have a good crosscut sled but its only 16" deep. I have an old circular saw but I dont trust my eyeballs to cut perfectly straight. A havent tried a fence or guide for that circ saw yet, but Im a bit skeptical I can get a good square cut - do they work? What brand works well?

Id like to be able to cut up to at least 48". How do you do this job?

Many thanks, and again, a very Merry Christmas!
Fred

[Matt Meiser]

I finally found a way but I'm at well north of 5x your budget. My methodology:

1) Only full sheet move--move the sheet onto a shop-made cutting grid set up on sawhorses.
2) Straight line rip one edge of the sheet with the Festool saw and a long rail.
3) Attach parallel guides (aftemarket, not Festool--blech!) to the rail and accurately rip to width.
4) Take the narrower strips over to the Festool MFT and square an end.
5) Crosscut to length at the MFT.

I can now very quickly and very consistently process my sheet goods with minimal handling of heavy full sheets. I built all the upper boxes for my kitchen in one Saturday using this method and that was the first time with the MFT.

I've tried crosscut sleds but the large pieces are a pain. I've tried squaring a rail perpendicular to a fresh edge but have had numerous problems with getting it slightly out of square and cascade effects from there. The MFT was the real breakthrough.

You could probably adapt many of these techniques to shop-made jigs and a common circular saw. With a homemade zero clearance base and a decent blade should should be able to get reasonably decent cuts.

[Sam Murdoch]

The easy answer is a track saw but your budget suggests that you should update your circular saw and look into one of these (or similar) guide rails - http://www.rockler.com/woodworking/Circular-Saw-Guide

Of course you can make up your own saw guide with different sized rips of 1/2" ply. I start with an 8" or 10" rip, screw a 3" rip (the fence) to the top and to one edge of the first piece and then run the circular saw along the fence with the intended saw blade over the overhang side of the sub ply. Your first cut will give you an accurate cut line for all subsequent cuts (until you change out the blade). If you make one of these at 96" and some shorter ones say - 58" and 42" - you will have a good collection of straight edges for guiding your saw. You will also need clamps and a good square. Often the first cuts will get your pieces small enough to handle comfortably on the table saw. With your TS fence properly aligned and a proper hold down and push technique you should be able to get repeatable square cuts.

Perhaps you know but just in case - never trust a plywood factory edge as straight. You should always rip a new straight edge whether for the rip or the cross cut. This new edge is the basis for your square cuts.

[Rich Engelhardt]

If you know a good answer, can you please help? Im looking for an affordable tool (less than $200-300), a jig or a technique that will let me break down plywood into SQUARE pieces.
The Grizzly track saw is in that price range & it's gotten some pretty good reviews here.

As far as making square cuts goes - even with the Festool TS55EQ I have, you have to get square and stay square to make square cuts.
By that I mean, if I do my part and make sure my cuts are square, the saw does it's part. If I get sloppy or rush something, the saw still does it's part - and makes a nice perfectly straight splinter free cut that's - out of square....along with the rest of the cuts I make that use that edge as a reference.

[glenn bradley]

Any guided circ-saw is only as accurate as the placement of the guides so, you need to have a method for that no matter how simple or involved the Guided Circular Saw system is. If you are going to do a lot of large sheetgoods work, you need to tool up for it; large infeed/outfeed and side support surfaces, etc. If it is occasional, as in my case, I fake it.

Something like this (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?173055-Shop-Made-GCS-v2) can do the job or, you can spend more. If you head down the high end GCS path, I advise you not to try any half measures. In things like this I either go simple or go high quality. If I go simple I realize there are limitations, If I make a half measure, I am never quite satisfied with the sub-optimal results ;-)

I made a large sled for pieces up to about 40" and it comes in handy often enough to earn the real estate it takes up; YMMV.

[Julie Moriarty]

Lee Valley sells the Veritas® Power Tool Guide that would keep you under $200 with clamps and saw guide. I haven't tried it but maybe others here have. It looks well made.
http://www.leevalley.com/US/images/item/woodworking/powertool/05j5001g1b.jpg


I had the Festool plunge saw & rail setup and it performed very well but at almost $1,000 it was too much for how often I would use it so I returned it. The LV rail may do the trick. For squaring, you might consider a 48" drywall square.

[Loren Woirhaye]

Generally to get square panels, you'll need to rip parallel sides. I think the Eurekazone track does a good job with straight cuts and also it has very good anti-splintering features. What it won't do it automatically be square unless you build a whole rig around it (they sell one but the cost adds up). A squaring fence that affixes to one end of a track saw track has to be meticulously squared again every time you install it. If the panels are under 30" wide I suggest you might build another cut-off sled for wider parts.

[George Bokros]

2) Straight line rip one edge of the sheet with the Festool saw and a long rail.
3) Attach parallel guides (aftemarket, not Festool--blech!) to the rail and accurately rip to width.



Couple of questions Matt....

2.) I believe you are saying you rip off one of the long edges of the sheet, correct? If so you are saying you either do not trust the factory long edges as being straight or they are not smooth enough for you, which is it? How do you make sure your Festool track is set up straight>

3.) The parallel guides you are using to attach to the Festool track what brand are they?
How do they attach to the Festool track?
Do you thing they would work with the Eureka Zone track?

Thanks Matt.


George

[Darrin Davis]

I'm not a big fan of Festool because of their ridiculous prices but I did find a closeout deal on the TS45 model several years ago so I thought I would give it a try. It has a splinter guard that the saw blade cuts right up against that eliminates cross-cut tear-outs on one side that is really nice for cross-cutting red oak ply which we use most of the time in our shop. I think I was lucky enough to find the closeout deal for $325 (about 1/2 price of the comparable saws from Festool). I have used the heck out of the saw with NO trouble at all. The best part that I like about the guide is that you do not have to clamp it to your work piece. It has non-slip pads on the bottom and I personally, in over 7 years, have never clamped it down and never had it slip. I've heard others say you have to still clamp it but again, I never have and I'm still using the same foam rubber pads that came on it.

[Michael Mahan]

I use the Festool TS55REQ 118" rail & Seneca Parallel guide jigs with the Incra track plus , a large square , simple fast but about $1K
http://www.senecawoodworking.com/products/parallel-guide-system-for-incra-t-track-plus

[Jim Matthews]

I use the EZ Smart system from Eurekazone.

I believe the universal edge guide has the principle in place,
but I don't know if it adjusts to 48" lengths.

For something so large as that, I would want an edge guide that clamps to the sheet goods.

I do this between two VIKA adjustable tables, with a rigid foam board underneath the sheet.
That reduces chip out on the bottom. If you're making lots of these - it might make sense to have
your supplier break the sheets down on a panel saw.

It's really difficult to beat the accuracy of a rig designed for just this sort of thing.

http://www.eurekazone.com/parallel_rip_cut_tools_s/1921.htm

[Jamie Buxton]

.. How do you make sure your ...track is set up straight?...

You can test the straightness of any track saw by using it to cut a piece of plywood, then folding the cut pieces together across the cut. If the cut edges match perfectly, the straight edge is straight. If the edges don't match, the straight edge is not straight.

[Rick Potter]

To keep it inexpensive, perhaps a good drywall square, clamped to the ply as a guide, and careful measurements diagonally to make sure sides are parallel? It could easily be used with a home made plywood guide as mentioned above. You could also tape a piece of Masonite under your saw to zero clearance the blade.

Rick Potter

Edit: You could also ensure parallel sides by simply cutting a scrap stick to the desired width, and using it to set the drywall square.

[George Bokros]

You can test the straightness of any track saw by using it to cut a piece of plywood, then folding the cut pieces together across the cut. If the cut edges match perfectly, the straight edge is straight. If the edges don't match, the straight edge is not straight.

I know how check if the track itself is straight, I was referring to how do you know it is set up on sheet is straight with the sheet you are going to cut.

[Matt Meiser]

Couple of questions Matt....

2.) I believe you are saying you rip off one of the long edges of the sheet, correct? If so you are saying you either do not trust the factory long edges as being straight or they are not smooth enough for you, which is it? How do you make sure your Festool track is set up straight>

3.) The parallel guides you are using to attach to the Festool track what brand are they?
How do they attach to the Festool track?
Do you thing they would work with the Eureka Zone track?

Thanks Matt.


George

yes, first step is to rip off about 1/4" off one long edge to get a good, us damaged, straight edge. Then I make parallel rips off that, then square off one of those. I use Seneca guides which are great. They hook over the T-slot side and use Incra track for rails. Love them. The Eurekazone rails are a different shape.

I'll echo Glenn's statement. Do it right or do it cheap and save your pennies for something good. Wasting a bunch of money on something that half works isn't going to save you anything in the end. Been there, done that.

[Alan Bienlein]

Since no one else has mentioned it how about the Grizzly track saw. For $329 you get the saw, 2 - 55" guide rails and the accessory pack that include the two clamps along with the anti tilt bar and the connector for joining the rails together.
http://www.grizzly.com/cart

[Charlie Barnes]

I don't know if this qualifies as a good answer since it doesn't initially yield a perfectly square cut. I lay a piece of rigid foam insulation on the floor and then set my circular saw to just cut through by 1/4" or so. I cut the pieces slightly larger than my finished dimensions and then true it up on my table saw. I make sure to leave a factory edge to reference off of against the fence. (With careful planning, you can usually arrange the cuts to allow for this.) Breaking the sheet down on the floor saves wrestling it onto horses and eliminates the need to support the cut off. The smaller pieces are then easier to handle and cut to the final dimensions. Again, this requires 2 steps (initial cutting and final trimming), but the cost is low. When the insulation gets too chewed up, dump it and buy another piece.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thank you folks! Just what I needed. This helps me a great deal and I really appreciate it!

Again, Merry Christmas to everyone on the Creek. (Id sing, but youll wish I hadnt.)
Fred

[johnny means]

How l see large are your largest panels? For most the cheapest feasible option is a larger sled. All you need to be able to square is the width of your largest panel. The Track saws are great for a lot of things, but without lots of jigs, measuring, and/or expensive accessories, there is no square setting. A good carefully setup sled will give you as much capacity and be faster and more consistant than an MFT or similar setup.

[Frederick Skelly]

Merry Christmas Johnny. Id like to be able to handle up to 48", because that lets me do anything. But if I could safely use a sled for 30", that would go a long way. Do you know if thats feasible? Control and safety would be my big concerns.
Thanks for giving me a hand!
Fred

[Jason White]

I've tried every method out there and nothing comes close to my Festool TS55 plunge/tracksaw for breaking down plywood into smaller pieces.


Hi folks!
Merry Christmas to all of you! Hope youre getting in a bit of shop time (or soon will)!

I found a gap in my tool set, or maybe just my SKILL set, yesterday. If you know a good answer, can you please help? Im looking for an affordable tool (less than $200-300), a jig or a technique that will let me break down plywood into SQUARE pieces.

I have an ancient contractor saw with a 52" fence. But that wont help when the plywood is (or gets) out of square. I have a good crosscut sled but its only 16" deep. I have an old circular saw but I dont trust my eyeballs to cut perfectly straight. A havent tried a fence or guide for that circ saw yet, but Im a bit skeptical I can get a good square cut - do they work? What brand works well?

Id like to be able to cut up to at least 48". How do you do this job?

Many thanks, and again, a very Merry Christmas!
Fred

[Jason White]

Even with the Festool, it's damn near impossible to get two short rails lined up perfectly with the connectors. Spring for the long rail; it's worth the money!

I also built this knockdown plywood cutting station to make the process easier. No foam needed; I just cut right into the tops of the 2x's.


Since no one else has mentioned it how about the Grizzly track saw. For $329 you get the saw, 2 - 55" guide rails and the accessory pack that include the two clamps along with the anti tilt bar and the connector for joining the rails together.
http://www.grizzly.com/cart

[Alan Bienlein]

Even with the Festool, it's damn near impossible to get two short rails lined up perfectly with the connectors. Spring for the long rail; it's worth the money!

I also built this knockdown plywood cutting station to make the process easier. No foam needed; I just cut right into the tops of the 2x's.

Thats another thing that turned me off of the festool track saw. Out of 4 55" long tracks we could not get any to join together in any combination and end up straight. You would think for all that money they would at least do that.

If I ever do look at getting a track saw for me it will be the Grizzly. I just don't use a skill saw of any type enough to justify the added expense.

[George Bokros]

My EZ track saw rails line up pretty straight. I believe they are heavier extrusions than the Festool.

George

[Matt Meiser]

If you butt them together, straightness has everything to do with squareness of the ends which is easily affected on any aluminum extrusion the first time it gets banged around. Even a tiny amount of misalignment I had decent luck with using a straightedge to set mine up with a small gap but the long rail is definitely better.

EZ claimed the dovetailed rail connectors solve the problem but friction of an aluminum-on-aluminum joint ruined any repeatability in my experience and would even force the rails OUT of alignment.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

If you have 52" capabilities with your tablesaw, you can process any cut on a 4x8 sheet of plywood. If you are struggling with managing that, you need a bigger table probably. Now, if you just want a tracksaw, so do I, I get it.

Just reread the square issue, before I had a slider, I'd cut a the perpendicular cut freehand with a circular saw and a straightedge. No need for gizmos, unless you just want one. :)

[Bob Michaels]

When I went into Seneca's website to purchase the parallel guides, they are marked," Sold Out". Does anyone have further info as to when they may be available. I'll also try to call them in the a.m. to see what I can find out. I have a large cabinet job coming up and the guides would be helpful for freaking down the sheets of 3/4" cabinet grade ply for the boxes. I guess I could buy the Fes parallel guides if these aren't available in time...but the comments seem to favor Seneca over Fes for this item.

Also, the imperial thickness replacement part for the Domino 500 sure looks attractive to me. I like working in inches because I'm an American. I have many Festool tools and it just rubs me the wrong way that they Americanize some aspects of their tools, i.e. converting the tools for use with power requirements in the U.S., but something simple like using imperial measurements, festool doesn't do. I simply put masking tape over their metric scales and created my own imperial scales. That my dear friends is stubbornness or arrogance on Festools part, and a bit unappreciative of the business they do in this country. Seneca makes a replacement part for the DF 500 that changes the scale and depth stops to imperial fractions instead of metric. Not a rant ... Just an observation from someone who has spent a ton of money on Festool products.

[Jason White]

The fact that it's a Festool has nothing to do with it. Festool makes a 10' track that works great; no connectors needed. You'd have trouble getting shorter rails to line up perfectly regardless of what brand saw/system you were using (Festool, DeWalt, Makita, Grizzly, etc.).



Thats another thing that turned me off of the festool track saw. Out of 4 55" long tracks we could not get any to join together in any combination and end up straight. You would think for all that money they would at least do that.

If I ever do look at getting a track saw for me it will be the Grizzly. I just don't use a skill saw of any type enough to justify the added expense.

[Chris Parks]

I have used the Festool guide system extensively and i don't care what anyone says it is not easy to get a dead nuts on square sheet with the Festool or any other guide. It is easy to get close and it is an easy way to break a sheet down to a manageable size but the time taken to get a dead square result is silly. If someone can come up with an idea to get a quick square sheet using a guide system I will buy one and by quick I mean put it on the sheet and cut and not playing around for extended lengths of time. If anyone can demonstrate and prove it is possible to do it within a few minutes please do a video so i can see it. There is a big difference between getting it close and getting it right on.

[Tom Clark FL]

Of course you could just make a $5 version of a track saw with a little bit of plywood. I also have an 8' version and have been using them for 20 years. They cut perfectly straight cuts, and cut exactly to whatever line you draw.

[Chris Parks]

Of course you could just make a $5 version of a track saw with a little bit of plywood. I also have an 8' version and have been using them for 20 years. They cut perfectly straight cuts, and cut exactly to whatever line you draw.

Yep, cheap and it works just as well as any track saw and I have used both.

[Matt Meiser]

When I went into Seneca's website to purchase the parallel guides, they are marked," Sold Out".

Definitely wait it out. Seneca is a father-son team, I assume doing batch production. The Seneca guides are much, much, much more functional than Festool's.

Festool's are heavy...Seneca light and they've removed a good chuck of useless weight since I got mine.
Festool's must be removed or at least slid to the ends for the first rip cut in my workflow above...Seneca you can just loosen the screw and remove the Incra rails, then replace and they go right back to the setting they were at.
Festool's must sit just a little wider than the workpiece and require a good 10" of extra rail...Senecas can sit wherever you want on the rail and consume no extra rail length. And they don't require readjustment because one workpiece is a few inches different length.
Festool's required calibration to set the scale to really be useful...Seneca's you could, but I find a ruler with a stop (I use the Woodpecker but whatever you like) sets them about instantly and accurately of the rail ZC edge.
Festool's are limited to just over 24"...Seneca is limited to about 6" over the longest Incra track (48" I believe) and if there was a need, I bet you could find a way to link two Incra tracks.



I like working in inches because I'm an American. I have many Festool tools and it just rubs me the wrong way that they Americanize some aspects of their tools, i.e. converting the tools for use with power requirements in the U.S., but something simple like using imperial measurements, festool doesn't do. I simply put masking tape over their metric scales and created my own imperial scales. That my dear friends is stubbornness or arrogance on Festools part, and a bit unappreciative of the business they do in this country. Seneca makes a replacement part for the DF 500 that changes the scale and depth stops to imperial fractions instead of metric. Not a rant ... Just an observation from someone who has spent a ton of money on Festool products.

Sure sounds like a rant ;) Seriously, you are expecting them to change a product to fit the (approximately) one country that doesn't use metric, and even industry has pretty much gone metric because it works for a global market. There's what 5 or 6 numbers on that scale? Just write the cross-reference down or memorize that 25.4mm is an inch and do the approximate math mentally. That said, I did buy replacement scales a guy was selling on the FOG site for the saws and routers.


I have used the Festool guide system extensively and i don't care what anyone says it is not easy to get a dead nuts on square sheet with the Festool or any other guide. It is easy to get close and it is an easy way to break a sheet down to a manageable size but the time taken to get a dead square result is silly. If someone can come up with an idea to get a quick square sheet using a guide system I will buy one and by quick I mean put it on the sheet and cut and not playing around for extended lengths of time. If anyone can demonstrate and prove it is possible to do it within a few minutes please do a video so i can see it. There is a big difference between getting it close and getting it right on.

So how do you do it? Large slider? Panel saw? My assumption is the OP is looking for a workable solution for a home shop. I've found that with the MFT set up right I do get very accurate results (and I've also learned that I should check that each session) but only up to about 24". After that I either need to reset the MFT the "long way" or go back to a good square, clamps, and check it thrice before cutting. Not a production solution but there's no good way to do that on a non-sliding TS either.

[Chris Parks]

So how do you do it? Large slider? Panel saw? My assumption is the OP is looking for a workable solution for a home shop. I've found that with the MFT set up right I do get very accurate results (and I've also learned that I should check that each session) but only up to about 24". After that I either need to reset the MFT the "long way" or go back to a good square, clamps, and check it thrice before cutting. Not a production solution but there's no good way to do that on a non-sliding TS either.

Yes, he was looking for a solution at under $300 and very few suggestions would be under that. I have never seen the Seneca solution prior to this, does it use positive stops like the Incra saw tooth system? Mind you it will not be under $300 by the time he gets it all so does not meet the criteria unfortunately. How I do it is not the issue, what I see in these type of threads is a manic belief that track saws are an easy way to cut sheets square, not nearly square or close to square but absolutely square. It most probably is achievable but it takes a long time to set up, is generally expensive and if people told the truth all they do is break the sheet down close to square. I am guessing they then use a TS to take it from there. If the Seneca used a saw tooth system it would seem to be the answer. That they produce it proves my point and why the manufacturers of these systems have not addressed the issue I don't know.

[Matt Meiser]

http://www.senecawoodworking.com/products/parallel-guide-system-for-incra-t-track-plus

No need for the saw tooth. I just set a rule stop on my ruler to the dimension I want. I set the rule stop lightly against the rail's zero clearance edge, then run the seneca stop to the ruler's end. Repeat on the other and I get "perfectly" parallel rips. That's the first step in getting a square cut--next is accurate perpendicular crosscuts and these don't help there.

[Jim Matthews]

Even with the Festool, it's damn near impossible to get two short rails lined up perfectly with the connectors. Spring for the long rail; it's worth the money!

I also built this knockdown plywood cutting station to make the process easier. No foam needed; I just cut right into the tops of the 2x's.

Okay - if nobody else will say it that's clever.

[Ole Anderson]

Grizz track saw for the long cuts. I have no problem aligning the two 55" tracks. Then I built a right angle gauge using an 18" square of ply (squared up using the five cut method on my Grizz table saw) with a cleat along one edge. I use it like a drywall square, but I know it is dead on. With that I square up the track for the cross cut to get the ply to manageable sizes, then take it to my large sled on the TS to finish up the crosscuts. I cut the ply on top of a piece of 1" foam board on top of a sheet of 3/4" ply on sawhorses. Ok, the whole track saw package is $315 delivered (maybe an after Christmas special?), a bit over the budget, but well worth it. And while I got the saw specifically to break down sheet goods, it has subsequently done several cuts that I don't know how I would have done any other way. For example slicing a slightly wedge shaped piece off the edge of a 4 foot piece of ply. To be able to lay the edge of the guide right on the cut line without any offset is priceless.

[Justin Rapp]

Of course you could just make a $5 version of a track saw with a little bit of plywood. I also have an 8' version and have been using them for 20 years. They cut perfectly straight cuts, and cut exactly to whatever line you draw.

This method works great as does using any straight edge that you pick up at the big box store. I have a t-square that comes apart which leaves me with a 50" straight edge and my father-in-law has a 96" straight edge. Just clamp it sqaure to your work and use it as a guide for a circular saw. Make the cut part slightly larger than what you need so you can then re-cut on a table saw with a much better blade and to ensure your piece is square.


Another option that makes life very easy is just ask your supplier to use their panel saw to bring the parts down to a size that you can manage on your table saw. I just purchased 2 sheets of cherry plywood that need to be ripped to 15.25 inches wide. I had my dealer rip each sheet to 96x16 "boards" on their panel saw. I then ripped 1/4 inch off one side of each board then set my table saw to 15 1/4 and ripped off the other size. Transporting and carrying 4x8 sheets is also a bit of a pain!

[Kevin Jenness]

Parallel cuts are relatively easy, square cuts not so much. I would suggest making a plywood square with a base at least 30" wide and a blade 12" longer than your widest crosscut. It could be long enough to crosscut a whole sheet. Lighten it by cutting a concave curve between opposite corners, leaving about 4" width at the corners, and make some interior cutouts too. Now that the piece has been stress relieved, cut the long edge straight and a perpendicular cut on the base edge. Easily said, I know- that's the task you wanted to do at first, but this will allow you to do it repeatedly and accurately. I would take it to a shop with a good panel saw and have them do it, but you can do it with a straightedge, skilsaw or router and accurate layout. Put an overhanging fence on the base edge to register on your workpiece, clamp the square to the panel, use the long edge to guide your skilsaw and viola! Now you have a square cut you can run along your tablesaw rip fence. This jig could equally well be used to set up a tracksaw rail.

[mreza Salav]

Fyi makita tracks work with festool saw. I bought their 118" track for less than half what festool one costs.

[Dick Thomas]

Of course you could just make a $5 version of a track saw with a little bit of plywood. I also have an 8' version and have been using them for 20 years. They cut perfectly straight cuts, and cut exactly to whatever line you draw.

I'm with you, Tom: None of these high priced tracks & guides is any better than the accuracy with which you mark, position, and clamp them! And if you go to the trouble of accurately marking and positioning something, the homebuilt shines every time. I don't have photos, but I built mine years ago using a strip of 1/4 x 1/2 aluminum bar stock. Fastened it to a piece of 1/2" ply, and ripped down BOTH edges of the ply, with the saw travelling in the SAME DIRECTION on each pass. That way one side is used for each edge of the saw baseplate, whichever edge works best for the current cut.

[Ole Anderson]

I have tried the "follow the edge of a straightedge trick" but find that if you don't keep the shoe fed hard into the straightedge, it can drift off. That is one of the advantages of the track systems, along with the concept that you don't need to figure the offset into the layout. Drifting out is even worse with a router.

[Randy Henry]

Came across this set up, does anyone have any first hand knowledge of these?

http://www.insighttoolworks.com/index.html