The Knew Concepts Birdcage Fretsaw: a critical look

[Derek Cohen]

As promised some months ago, here is the full review of the KC Birdcage fretsaw. There is some - heh -passion and intrigue here in possibly the last article of the year.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsBirdcageFretsaw.html


Please read the first review if you have not yet done so. The current article assumes basic knowledge of the Birdcage fresaw.


http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/KnewConceptsFretsaw.html


Best wishes from Perth for the festive season!


Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Thanks for the review.

If you are up it must be my bed time.

jtk

[Robert G Brown]

Thanks Derek. Your review is informative and interesting. It made me think of a couple of questions not directly related to your review of the titanium birdcage. I apologize if inappropriate to ask here.

I have been cutting on the push stroke with my inexpensive coping saw. I have trouble with control. And now can see where pull cutting would be better and will have to try it.

Also if I understand correctly - one hand operation was okay with the old style titanium frame. And with the new titanium birdcage frame that two hand operation is best. So if I did not want to pay for an titanium birdcage frame and only upgraded to the aluminum frame, would a two hand operation be best for it?

Now I am wondering if I need to not only turn the blade around on my coping saw, but also put a bigger handle on it so I can hold it with two hands?

Best to You
Robert

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Robert

First try the coping saw with a pull cut. I think that you will be amazed at the difference it makes in controlling the saw blade.

The double-handed grip is a choice when removing dovetail waste. Some will like it, others will not. I suspect more will like it once they try. Even the lighter saws, such as the original aluminium KC, work better with this grip - just ups the control.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Robert G Brown]

Thanks for your answers Derek. I will certainly try your advice.

Best to You,
Robert

[Adam Cruea]

Derek -

So it looks like you prefer the old titanium version to the new one. . .but what about an aluminum vs. the birdcage?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

You posted this just as I was contemplating purchasing one of these. Coincidence? I prefer to think it's God telling me I need one. :D

[Derek Cohen]

Derek -

So it looks like you prefer the old titanium version to the new one. . .but what about an aluminum vs. the birdcage?

Hi Adam

I have not used an aluminium version, but if it is for dovetailing, then get the 3" version. This should be stiff enough and will have the depth of cut.

A 5" saw has a 3 1/2' depth of cut ...

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC455inch.jpg

A 3" saw has a 2" depth of cut - I cannot see anyone wanting to saw deeper ..

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/saws/Knew%20Concepts/KC453inch.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

I'm still in awe that there is a $215 fret saw for removing waste and leaving a *non* finish surface, and a notion that spending another $85 for a suitable handle is part of the equation.

I understand that there are a lot of folks reviewing these saws because the maker is well-acquainted with supplying saws for "review" (cheaper than advertising) but such a thing would be so low on my list of practical things folks might need to do tasteful woodworking that I couldn't imagine ever actually buying one unless I was part of the touring group of folks who attends LN shows and WIA and sees things like fretsawing dovetail waste as something that requires a lot of spending.

That may sound harsh, but each time I see these saws I just about want to stand on my head. There are probably 50 things that would be more sensible for any beginner to budget, and even if there was only one - wood - it would be money better spent.

The situation would be entirely different for someone cutting marquetry (and for some reason forgoing the scroll saw) or metallic jewelry items. But for woodworking and non-finish surface...i'm stunned every time.

[george wilson]

I cut my marquetry guitar with a 20" deep fret saw made of Yew. Took some practice to get used to it for sure,plus I was using a VERY small blade. #6 IIRC. That means about .006" thick x .009" wide. I really can't remember those specs,but it was very thin,and a slight deviation in holding the saw would break the bales instantly. Someone begged the saw off my bench,as usual.

[Joe Leigh]

I wasn't aware that anyone with the temerity to attend WIA or a LN wood working event was automatically part of a "touring group of folks". Thanks for the clarification.

Consider me a freak of nature then, as I recently attended WIA and failed to fall victim to this scurrilous affliction.
Good to see that there's someone out there looking out for those less fortunate.

By the way, stunned silence works too.

Happy Holidays!

[David Weaver]

I'm sure I'll draw heat for that, but that's OK. Both for the WIA stuff and for the fret saw criticism.

There aren't many less fortunate types in hobby woodworking, but there are a lot of relatively fortunate folks spending money early (I was also one) on things that they find out later don't really contribute to the effort.

[Steve Kang]

I agree. There are people who buy tools as a means to an end, and others as a means to create an image or persona they are attempting to portray - whether they realize it or not.

[Jim Koepke]

I'm still in awe that there is a $215 fret saw for removing waste

For me chopping the waste out with a chisel is fine.

Maybe if one is doing production work the time saved would eventually make the investment worth the expense.

For my money though it would likely be spent on one of the less expensive versions.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I don't know what is normally done for production, but I recall dave diaman showing what he was doing with dovetails, and the HBs at least had the bulk of the waste removed with a router.

About the only person who comes to mind doing work without subsidy (other than dave) is Warren, maybe he'll tell us what he does. The custom furniture world has sort of moved away from the kind of work we like to do as hobbyists.

[george wilson]

I have always just chopped out waste with a chisel.

[Chris Parks]

No one made a carbon fibre version yet?

[Derek Cohen]

Hey David, are you the guy that collects guitars and sharpening stones? I'm not sure what else. :)

I'm not confident how I would go about choosing such items. I know a little about guitars, but less than I know about sharpening stones, which is not a lot outside the ones I use. I know that I can ask for advice on this forum, but I'm not sure that I would go to you if you are going to reduce their worth to Dollars and Cents. You see, I know what I can and cannot afford (my wife informs me a lot, and I tend to follow this advice whether I believe it or not!). What would be more helpful are just the facts, the pros and cons, about the item - and then I can make up my own mind.

As is my intention, a review of a tool is more than that. It is, hopefully, a look at design and ergonomics - a jumping off point for discussion here. I find this far more interesting than a discussion about being manipulated by others or financial standards. Leave the latter for the Scientology forum.

Merry Christmas.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

I have always just chopped out waste with a chisel.

Merry Christmas George!

Your comment made me think of the many ways how we could remove waste, and why. Especially why.

I can think of four methods I have - and do - use for the removal of dovetail waste: chopping (as you mentioned), sawing with a fretsaw, sawing with a coping saw, and part removal with a router or drill.

Why not chop? Well, it is not simply because the wood is hard, which it is, but because this hastens an early life for the chisel edge. Chopping hardwood - unless you can keep the amount down to a thin sliver (such as near the baseline) - can be similar to slamming the edge into concrete. Softwoods are a different kettle of fish, especially if the amount is small, such as in skinny tails.

Coping saw? I use one, when the boards are thick (such as 3/4") carcases, and especially when the run is long, such as the waste from through pins (half-blind pins need to be removed with a chisel). However, the coping saw blades are wider than those of a fretsaw, and thus less manoeverable.

Fretsaw? I prefer this for thinner boards. The blades are easier to run down the saw kerf and remove the waste in one motion - where the coping saw generally requires two saw cuts (even with the thinner blades that are available). The downside of a fretsaw is that the frame is not a rigid as a coping saw and the blades are a lot thinner. Consequently, they are more likely to wander or snap.

Summary: Getting close to the baseline means that one may use paring cuts to remove the remaining waste. Not only is this likely to allow for more accuracy, but also a longer lasting chisel edge.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Weaver]

The difference is that I readily describe the stones as something that for practicality's sake are one good reasonably priced set and a grinder. Not a set of hatanaka stamped stones. The rest of the collecting is strictly that, and I have never suggested that there is an advantage to it outside of curiosity.

There seems to be a misplaced notion that there is some practical advantage to getting these fretsaws (though not for fretwork)....to remove dovetail waste, and their virtues are extolled for justification. But $215 or $300 to do what can be competently done for $10-$15. I just hope there are no beginners who think there is something practical that they are going to gain with these in exchange for the princely sum.

[Derek Cohen]

So David, should I prefer a Hatanaka over a Norton or King?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Sean Hughto]

I have three of the titanium version with after market handles. I felt I needed three so that I could keep them loaded with different blades optimized for different style pins and carcass, drawer, and small box dovetails. I don't think I could make dovetails without these saws, though between you and me, I haven't had a chance to use them yet.

[Sean Hughto]

And peace on earth, goodwill towards man!

[David Weaver]

I would think not, perhaps the hatanaka would be superior for kamisori. But there are those who would tell you all of the virtues of the hatanaka stamped stone over the king for woodworking, but they would never be able to actually put that in context.

I want to make it clear that I don't think Lee is a person who has devious plans to get every retired gentleman woodworker to part with $215 for a tool that they will use a few times and decide they want to use a router instead (though that might occur). It seems more like this was the blog community driving the desire for these things. Just as we all needed high angle frogs, tasai chisels, or any number of things that some "can't live without". I don't know Lee from Adam, which makes the assessment ideal, because I don't know anything about the guy for or against. I can only make comments about practical merits in a world where other things are needed to work wood.

I think the issue is more the community problem that there can be no critical review of any item of any type in the gentleman woodworker's world. If I am critical of the WIA scene and a $215 saw that is much more appropriate for jewelers who might actually benefit from its precision and light weight, there is an uproar about it being something equivalent to poor sportsmanship. I don't think that does anyone any service. It can be the case that a nice individual with good intentions makes something that should be considered only after any number of dozens of other more practical needs are met.

These things aren't presented that way, though, it's always a "these are great" and "don't talk about the price, we can all decide on that". Or "no critical comments in context are acceptable, only silence or positive stuff that would be acceptable at the dinner table". I don't agree with that.

If I showed a bunch of scratch patterns from a king 8000 and someone gave me a hatanaka to review and I put a kamisori quality edge on a plane iron and implied the superiority of the hatanaka nakayama stone, it would be just the same. I'd hate to see a beginning woodworker buy a $300 natural sharpening stone (just using price as an example to keep it at a level of this fret saw, a hatanaka stone would be more like $1500+)

[Derek Cohen]

Hi David

I take what you say seriously, so I am not simply looking to win an argument. The problem one faces on forums is how to respond to a request for a recommendation? Does one do so on the basis of price, which is a value judgement the same as any other? Does one do so on the basis of function and form, and ignore the price factor, which then could create unrealistic expectations for a novice buyer? Does one cover all bases by comparing function, form and price on all the tools to offer perspective?

Let's not ignore that someone here :) wrote " I have piles of natural stones, and have to admit that there is more satisfaction in using them". That is not a dig at you but the realisation that sometimes it is not about cost.

Would we watch Top Gear if they only reviewed cars they considered "good value for money"? I certainly cannot afford a Ferrari and nor do I aspire to one, but I learn something about using and choosing cars when they dissect a contender for top-of-the-class. I believe others likely view the reviews in the same way.

I would like to say that the perfect review for me would be to compare what one gets at different price levels. The difficulty with this is that skill in using a tool must come into the equation. Some tools work better with less technique, and others rise in stature when technique is gained.

Your thoughts?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[george wilson]

Well,I haven't been chopping ultra hard Aussie woods. Mahogany and walnut aren't so bad.

[Joe Leigh]

I have just one question, what exactly is the "WIA scene" and why are you linking the Knew Concepts saw to it?

I ask because I attended this years conference in Kentucky. Should I be concerned? Was there some type of subliminal message being sent designed to convert me into some boutique tool cult member?

I met Rob Lee also, seems like a nice guy. Might he be the president of Sunshine Carpet Cleaning?

Ok, that's more than one question.

Season's Greetings!

[David Weaver]

Hi David

I take what you say seriously, so I am not simply looking to win an argument. The problem one faces on forums is how to respond to a request for a recommendation? Does one do so on the basis of price, which is a value judgement the same as any other? Does one do so on the basis of function and form, and ignore the price factor, which then could create unrealistic expectations for a novice buyer? Does one cover all bases by comparing function, form and price on all the tools to offer perspective?

Let's not ignore that someone here :) wrote " I have piles of natural stones, and have to admit that there is more satisfaction in using them". That is not a dig at you but the realisation that sometimes it is not about cost.

Would we watch Top Gear if they only reviewed cars they considered "good value for money"? I certainly cannot afford a Ferrari and nor do I aspire to one, but I learn something about using and choosing cars when they dissect a contender for top-of-the-class. I believe others likely view the reviews in the same way.

I would like to say that the perfect review for me would be to compare what one gets at different price levels. The difficulty with this is that skill in using a tool must come into the equation. Some tools work better with less technique, and others rise in stature when technique is gained.

Your thoughts?

Regards from Perth

Derek

I hesitated to write that about the stones, and I should've written my full thoughts on it. I've had to sometimes qualify the stone related comments by saying:
* are the natural stones cheaper than the synthetics? No, maybe with some exceptions
* are they faster than the synthetics? No
* are they finer than the synthetics? generally no, and their fineness is one of the most over-exaggerated things, especially in a practical sense
* do they give you as much freedom in using various steels? no

So, why is it more satisfying to use them? I don't know, I'm pretty sure if I put a poll together on it, most people would say it's not thus the reason I don't recommend someone go chasing natural stones if the purpose is just to sharpen.

When people look for a recommendation of something, it's as if there is a spec-sheet solution for everything. In some cases, there is, but in a lot of cases, it's really "use anything that isn't unworkable, and do it until you can use it well". Nobody likes that kind of recommendation, it suggests that the solution the problem may have more to do with sitting at the bench and making things than buying the right thing, planning it out perfectly and just having a tidy project shoot off of the bench due to that.

In my opinion, a recommendation advising what to avoid followed by a dose of competence through repetition is more practical.

[David Weaver]

I have just one question, what exactly is the "WIA scene" and why are you linking the Knew Concepts saw to it?



by that, I mean the vendor list. What I am implying is that if you had a list of things you needed to accomplish and a venue to shop for the items needed to do it, working through the vendor list at WIA may be the most expensive way to do it. I don't consider derek part of the normal blogging clique, so I hope that's not perceived to be the case when I say the "buy the best you can afford" mantra is trumpeted. Have some figured wood? You need an infill. Cutting dovetails? Certainly you won't be an imprecise lunkhead who would use a $10 coping saw or a zona fretsaw, get the KC saw. Need to mark some wood? Stay away from marking knives made of scrap, you need three or four various styles of boutique marking knives. All of the others are too hard to use. Need to build a bench? Certainly need two boutique vises.

Not to mention blogroll stuff in the past telling loyal readers that, of course, you can't use vintage tools - "it's false economy". Those being the vintage tools that show up more commonly in professional settings - along with inexpensive commodity stuff.

I have to admit, it irks me. I bought into some of it, so did some of my local buddies. they have all quit woodworking by now, I went downmarket finding that I liked some of the crass common stuff a whole lot better for actual work day to day. Reading between the lines with what professionals have said on these boards, I could've seen it a lot sooner than a couple of years ago.

[Derek Cohen]

I could've seen it a lot sooner than a couple of years ago.

Hi David

One of the thoughts I have carried with me from the beginning of writing reviews has been "if I demonstrate how I used the tool, then those who know more than I will see the limitations of my technique, and recognise whether the tool has something to offer them. For those with less technique, there is an opportunity to see what can be done".

The decision about cost is not something that I comment on since the world of hobby woodworkers contains a wide range that spans those getting into the game on a very small budget to those upgrading for their pleasure. For some it is all about cost. For others this has little to do with it. For some in the middle, they will save to meet the aspiration (which is what most of us do, and not just in woodworking). I'm not going to be the one to say you should or you shouldn't. That is the responsibility of the individual. It's like admiring a Ferrari on Top Gear.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[J. Greg Jones]

I have not used an aluminium version, but if it is for dovetailing, then get the 3" version. This should be stiff enough and will have the depth of cut...

Derek, do you have a recommendation for a blade/source for the 3" saws? The Pegas SK7 appears to be a common recommendation for the 5" saw, but I don't recall seeing any info on a 3" blade.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Greg

The blades used on all models are the same. The model sizes differ only in the depth of the body, not in the length of the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[J. Greg Jones]

That makes sense then-thanks! I had assumed the frame was reduced to 3" in both the blade length and the depth of the body.

[george wilson]

This has been an intelligent conversation between 2 friends of mine. Personally.I have no idea which path to take in these saws. Somehow I have gotten the work done with what I have had on hand. But,I always said I do everything the hard way.:) The old Dutch Master Cabinet Maker used to SPIT on his natural Belgian cuticle(the odd shape that Woodcraft used to sell) sharpen his chisel,and go to work with it,no strop. In the 70's,he got $10,000.00 for a chest. How simple can you get?


Merry Christmas to all!!!!!(Or Happy Holidays if you prefer. My Jewish wife doesn't care which!!) :):):) But,then,she's not a practicing Jew. No,she's got it down pat!! Just kidding.

[David Weaver]

I was extra crabby yesterday and apologize some for the brashness, though the general sense of it wasn't just due to that. I was just crabby enough to bring it up.

It exists in the world of sharpening stones, the curiosity I indulge in and admit freely is not something people should waste their money on for any practical purpose. One of the biggest bits of hocum in the world of japanese stones (and others to some extent) is that cost of a stone due to rarity is going to translate to performance or practical gain. One of the most popular things to trumpet around is calling very hard stones 30,000-40,000 grit stones, and being deleterious about explanations so as to allow someone to not get the whole picture about particular stones. (getting the most out of those stones in the context of woodworking is not very practical)

In that case, there are some dealers who in my opinion do intentionally drive up the price of some common stones, implying that they will create some magically complex edge that has improved properties for woodworking.

[Archie England]

Though I'm not yet ready to fork over $300ish for a coping/fret saw, I genuinely appreciate Derek's (others, too) reviews of high-end tools. Knowing that they REALLY outperform the $20 cousin is absolutely necessary for those of us at the lower end of the feeder.

Merry Christmas! to all!!!! And, please do keep posting tool and stone reviews. You're helping those of us with the "show-me" spirit learn faster. Well, I hope so, anyway :)

[Simon MacGowen]

I was extra crabby yesterday and apologize some for the brashness, though the general sense of it wasn't just due to that. I was just crabby enough to bring it up.

It exists in the world of sharpening stones, the curiosity I indulge in and admit freely is not something people should waste their money on for any practical purpose. One of the biggest bits of hocum in the world of japanese stones (and others to some extent) is that cost of a stone due to rarity is going to translate to performance or practical gain. One of the most popular things to trumpet around is calling very hard stones 30,000-40,000 grit stones, and being deleterious about explanations so as to allow someone to not get the whole picture about particular stones. (getting the most out of those stones in the context of woodworking is not very practical)

In that case, there are some dealers who in my opinion do intentionally drive up the price of some common stones, implying that they will create some magically complex edge that has improved properties for woodworking.

I enjoy tool reviews but I actually liked your divergent views on this high-end fret saw. Some people will buy a tool (a $4,000 handplane is not going to do a planing job 20 times better than a Veritas!) because it costs a lot (does a Rolex watch keep time better?) and he or she can afford it as a toy, not because it is that much better in function. Positive reviews encourage or give a reassuring voice to them to buy something they already want to. Just that little push is a good thing to them and to the sellers, too.

As long as opinions like yours -- that we don't need a $200 fret saw to remove waste -- are expressed, and are allowed to be expressed, I think tool reviews and responses to them are always welcome. Of course, the reviewers are also welcome to defend their cases when challenged. (I've used a German made $30 fret saw since I learned cutting dovetails...because my teacher (who has all the fancy hand tools) used it when teaching us how to cut dovetails. I have handled both sizes of the Knew Concepts, but not long enough to say that I prefer them over what I have been using. I won't object to getting one as a gift, though.)

Simon

[Shawn Pixley]

I have a great deal of respect for both Derek and David. However, I would like to try one of the Knew Concepts saws. I use an old beater fret saw / jewler's saw for both metal and wood. (I have yet to remove dovetail waste with it) I also see David's position on tool utility in a general sense (not particularly in relation to the Knew Concepts saw). In the guitar world, there are people who suffer from GAS (guitar acquisition syndrome). Makers prey upon these by creating an artificial demand at an exceptional price point. I can see this happening in the WW tool world. When I work on inlay, precision is very important. However the tool doesn't make the man.

[David Weaver]

I had GAS, too. Fortunately, got over it, though. There is probably some overlap with woodworking in terms of interest.

[Rick Markham]

I want to ring in on this, as I am a "tool-pig" I also have a fondness for Artisan made tools, partly because in some respects I aspire to being an artisan tool maker. I also agree that it is important that people realize that it is the person behind the tool that makes it useful.

That being said, it was a very wonderful review for a tool, I will probably never own. Not because I don't like or want it, but simply because at this point I don't need it. Maybe one day I will foray into delicate metal work, until then. I will be happy with my KC 3" Aluminum coping saw... Yes, I bought one this year, Is it a better designed mouse trap? Absolutely. Is it worth the price, I can't answer that. Too me it was.

One thing that I consider a worthwhile improvement, the blade tensioning/quick change system.

One thing that I have noticed in myself, as well as others, is that a "beautiful" tool tends to make you want to use it more. But that's the artist in me.

I looked at natural Japanese stones when I was getting all of my sharpening equipment years ago, it made my head spin so I went elsewhere! LOL

[Adam Cruea]

I was extra crabby yesterday and apologize some for the brashness, though the general sense of it wasn't just due to that. I was just crabby enough to bring it up.

It exists in the world of sharpening stones, the curiosity I indulge in and admit freely is not something people should waste their money on for any practical purpose. One of the biggest bits of hocum in the world of japanese stones (and others to some extent) is that cost of a stone due to rarity is going to translate to performance or practical gain. One of the most popular things to trumpet around is calling very hard stones 30,000-40,000 grit stones, and being deleterious about explanations so as to allow someone to not get the whole picture about particular stones. (getting the most out of those stones in the context of woodworking is not very practical)

In that case, there are some dealers who in my opinion do intentionally drive up the price of some common stones, implying that they will create some magically complex edge that has improved properties for woodworking.

No reason to apologize.

To be frank, I didn't find anything brash about it at all. It was the truth, with some people may not like, but it was an honest opinion. We're all allowed those.

I honestly can't say I disagree with anything you said. Many people don't realize that buying expensive things doesn't translate to being a better woodworker or even being able to do decent woodworking. And to be honest, I never got on the bandwagon of sawing out dovetail waste with a coping/fret saw. To me you'd use those things for curved work or marquetry.

To each their own.

[george wilson]

I haven't sawn out waste either,BUT Derek is dealing with very hard Aussie woods and his point about chisel edge wear is well taken. If I was dovetailing bloodwood(VERY hard stuff!!!) I'd saw out the waste for sure. But,mahogany and walnut aren't
a bother to my old 1960's Marples chisels.

For getting through cuts of a .015" dovetail saw,you will need a thin blade,not just a coping saw blade. That would ruin your thin dovetail cuts. Having a saw that you can rotate the blade in would be very useful if your board is too wide for the throat of the saw to encompass.

That said,again,I haven't had to dovetail those super obnoxious woods since I have worked mostly in the 18th. C. idiom as far as furniture is concerned.That means mahogany,walnut , cherry and maple. If I did have to dovetail really hard woods,I might at least consider the aluminum KC saw,because you CAN rotate the blades with it. . For a saw the size of the KC saws,I doubt extreme lightness would become a factor.I ought to just mill out myself a frame,but by the time I made the rotating parts,it wouldn't be worth the bother,unless it was just a fun project.

I think whether or not we saw out waste depends upon what woods we are dovetailing,ultimately. So,I'm agreeing with Derek about sawing waste in very hard woods. I also am agreeing with David about economy(although you CAN spend more on a STONE than the higher priced KC saw costs!!)

[David Weaver]

I bought stones from George for at least that much!

[David Weaver]

No one made a carbon fibre version yet?

It looks on another forum like there are prototypes of carbon fiber frame saws from KC.

[george wilson]

I am thinking about making one out of frozen hydrogen!!!:) They would cost a fortune and not last long,but,OH!! The light weight!!

[Matt Winterowd]

I too want to say that I very much appreciate Derek's reviews. For every market segment there is a wide range of price vs. function vs. refinement. Nobody needs the most expensive version of anything, but there are usually some reasons to value it over others.

Acknowledging that this review does specifically concern the $200+ version of the saw, it is only fair to point out that the maker specifically sells an aluminum design for woodworking for $90. He really doesn't make any claim that the birdcage design is the "right" saw for cutting out waste. Having used any number of mass market coping & fret saws, $90 for one that actually holds onto the blade and stays a little stiffer doesn't sound too bad to me. And we all know perfectly well that this type of tool isn't really a unitasker anyway.