Tooling up for M&T, DT, Workbench, Chisels, Sharpening.

[Cody Armstrong]

Hey folks!

Lately I've been extensively researching/reading old threads and am to the point where I really need some input from others.
There is so many suggestions and "This is what I use/have" answers, that I'm not sure what to do. I'm trying to do this reasonably economically :rolleyes: but am willing to spend the money where it really counts.

My list for starters:
Bench chisels PMV11. Currently out of stock until end of Jan. So I'll be waiting unfortunately.
Veritas DT saw. --orderd
Veritas rip/crosscut saw set. Currently on sale.-- ordered
Titemark marking gauge--ordered
The rest I can get by on as I have coping saw and cheap chisels.
No block plane for now. I've got a couple old planes that need cleaning up and I can practice sharpening the irons with.
Will make the Sellers dovetail template.

Workbench: I have the Chris Shwarz workbench book on order.

Sharpening:
I'm planning on getting the Pro Series Shaptons with the expensive flattening plate and the MK2 guide.
I'm not sure what grits to get here.

I'm thinking the 220, 2000-3000, 5000, 8000.
This area is where I need some input/help with please.
Should I go with the 2000 or 3000. I don't know which to choose?
Leave out the 220 and use sandpaper on flat surface?
As of now I'm not planning to take it higher than 8000 unless otherwise suggested.
Can someone please help with this area.

Gratefully,
Cody

[Chris Vandiver]

Hey folks!

Lately I've been extensively researching/reading old threads and am to the point where I really need some input from others.
There is so many suggestions and "This is what I use/have" answers, that I'm not sure what to do. I'm trying to do this reasonably economically :rolleyes: but am willing to spend the money where it really counts.

My list for starters:
Bench chisels PMV11. Currently out of stock until end of Jan. So I'll be waiting unfortunately.
Veritas DT saw. --orderd
Veritas rip/crosscut saw set. Currently on sale.-- ordered
Titemark marking gauge--ordered
The rest I can get by on as I have coping saw and cheap chisels.
No block plane for now. I've got a couple old planes that need cleaning up and I can practice sharpening the irons with.
Will make the Sellers dovetail template.

Workbench: I have the Chris Shwarz workbench book on order.

Sharpening:
I'm planning on getting the Pro Series Shaptons with the expensive flattening plate and the MK2 guide.
I'm not sure what grits to get here.

I'm thinking the 220, 2000-3000, 5000, 8000.
This area is where I need some input/help with please.
Should I go with the 2000 or 3000. I don't know which to choose?
Leave out the 220 and use sandpaper on flat surface?
As of now I'm not planning to take it higher than 8000 unless otherwise suggested.
Can someone please help with this area.

Gratefully,
Cody

Shapton Pro 1000, 5000(not totally necessary) and 8000. Get Atoma 400 flattening plate. Use sandpaper for gross removal. Get Eclipse style guide(side clamping, about $15).

[Steve Friedman]

Just a couple of sharpening suggestion.

1. Instead of the expensive Shapton flattening plate, check out the Atoma #400 Diamond Plate. Best price from Stu at Tools From Japan

2. Hold off on the Mk2 guide. Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen are both coming out with new side clamping honing guides, supposedly in early 2014. The Mk2 is OK, but struggles with thin chisels and I find side clamping jigs easier to use.

3. I have a 1000 Shapton Pro and like it, but haven't used any of the other Shaptons. I use Sigma stones (also from Stu) and couldn't be happier. There's a 1000 (or 1200) - 6000 - 13000 set with an Atoma diamond plate that is probably the best bang for your buck. Regardless of the brand, I think you want to start with a 1000-ish stone and end with a stone in the 10000 range. You can get one stone to bridge those two, but may people just skip that. You certainly don't need three stones from 2000 to 8000.

4. I have low grit water stones (120 - 320 - 400), but really prefer 3M Gold PSA sandpaper (80 - 120 - 220 - 400) on granite for any back flattening and repairing edges. Quicker and easier. I use the 320 and 400 grit water stones after the sandpaper just to make the work on the 1000/1200 stone go a bit quicker. The 3M Gold PSA has an A-weight (vert thin) backing that helps avoid dubbing and the adhesive leaves no residue.

You don't indicate, but assume you have things like a marking knife, square, and good lighting. Also, don't forget the blue tape (see Derek Cohen's website www.inthewoodshop.com for using blue tape when marking dovetails. Priceless.

Good luck,

Steve

[Cody Armstrong]

Wonderful!

Just watched the vids on Stu's site. I will go with this set for sure. Much more economical.
He offers a hard and soft #1000 grit stone. Which one do I need? Can you please point me in the right direction.

Will definitely wait on the jig as you suggest. :)

[Justin Florentine]

Another (much cheaper) sharpening solution for beginners is the Scary Sharp method. Silicon Carbide sandpaper and a plate of glass. Google has good results, and Rockler sells starter packs of the paper you need for $10.

[Jim Koepke]

He offers a hard and soft #1000 grit stone. Which one do I need? Can you please point me in the right direction.


That would be a good question for Stu. He should be able to tell you which will work better with the PM V11 chisels.

Coming in late here. My set up of 1000, 4000 & 8000 stones works fine for me. Most of the time all that is needed is a refreshing on the 4000 & 8000. If there is a nick or if the blade has been in use beyond just a little touch up the 1000 stone works fast enough to get things going again.

I have some lower grit stones but it is just a lot less trouble to do those jobs with sandpaper on granite.

jtk

[Brian Holcombe]

Only thing I would make differently about my bench is that I would have made a split top out of two solid pieces of 12/4 rock maple. Rather than doing a lamination.

Easier to do and does not require battens.

[Cody Armstrong]

Another (much cheaper) sharpening solution for beginners is the Scary Sharp method. Silicon Carbide sandpaper and a plate of glass. Google has good results, and Rockler sells starter packs of the paper you need for $10.

Yea. I've looked at this approach and was almost sold but I have the extra money right now and want to just get-r-done. Don't really want to muck around with the paper. By the time I spend the money on ordering paper, buying a thick plate of glass and or granite........ ;) You get the idea of where I'm going with it.

[Cody Armstrong]

Only thing I would make differently about my bench is that I would have made a split top out of two solid pieces of 12/4 rock maple. Rather than doing a lamination.

Easier to do and does not require battens.
I'm considering a split top. I like the idea of setting tools out of the way in a trough. I know they will hit the floor. I will have to laminate the maple top. I don't have access to 12/4 unfortunately.
I'm taking the advice that was given in an old thread and reading Shwarz's book first. As much as I want to buy materials, order vices, and get started I am being patient with this. :)

[Cody Armstrong]

That would be a good question for Stu. He should be able to tell you which will work better with the PM V11 chisels.

Coming in late here. My set up of 1000, 4000 & 8000 stones works fine for me. Most of the time all that is needed is a refreshing on the 4000 & 8000. If there is a nick or if the blade has been in use beyond just a little touch up the 1000 stone works fast enough to get things going again.

I have some lower grit stones but it is just a lot less trouble to do those jobs with sandpaper on granite.

jtk

I will ask Stu which is best.

[Brian Holcombe]

One does not necessarily exclude the other. Determine which vises you would like to use before building anything.

I built my bench in the way I did because of the projects I build. I think it's an important consideration for anyone building a bench.

[Cody Armstrong]

I'm considering the Veritas quick release front vice http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=67755&cat=1,41637,41659

and the tail vice http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=65746&cat=1,41637,41659

Any thoughts on these?

[Chuck Nickerson]

... d the tail vice http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=65746&cat=1,41637,41659
Any thoughts on these?

I installed the QR tail vise several months ago and am quite happy. The bench-top I retrofitted I to was tailor-made for this vise.
The top is 1-3/4"thick with a 6" skirt. I just cut off the part of the skirt that became vise jaw and the install was smooth.

One thing I did that was smart was putting threaded inserts in the vertical faces of the wooden vise jaws.
It's now easy to make and secure shop aids such as specialty vise jaws at various heights.

[Randy Karst]

+1 on the Sigma set (w/ Atoma #400 Diamond Plate), I went with the hard (per Stu's guidance) and am very satisfied!

[Cody Armstrong]

I'm now very seriously looking at the Benchcrafted tail vise and crisscross hardware. The plans also.
I hope it's not considered a cop-out to go with their plans. Would make life a lot easier. :)

[Cody Armstrong]

+1 on the Sigma set (w/ Atoma #400 Diamond Plate), I went with the hard (per Stu's guidance) and am very satisfied!

I've sent Stu a couple emails through his website and haven't received a reply yet. Hopefully he's just busy with Christmas and all.

[Chris Vandiver]

I've sent Stu a couple emails through his website and haven't received a reply yet. Hopefully he's just busy with Christmas and all.

I think it states on Stu's site that he is gone for the Christmas Holidays. Most likely that's the reason for his delayed response.

[Greg Fletcher]

+1 on the Sigma set (w/ Atoma #400 Diamond Plate), I went with the hard (per Stu's guidance) and am very satisfied!



+1 what Randy said, I also bought the #120 and the #400 Sigma Power stones at the same time.

[Cody Armstrong]

I think it states on Stu's site that he is gone for the Christmas Holidays. Most likely that's the reason for his delayed response.

If I had read the fine print on the front page I would have seen that. :)
Guess I'll be patiently waiting.

[Cody Armstrong]

+1 what Randy said, I also bought the #120 and the #400 Sigma Power stones at the same time.

If I were to do as you did and add these stones to the set it looks like it would eliminate the use of coarse sandpaper for major fixes with the 120 stone. Does the 400 bridge the gap between 120 and 1000?
Since this is my first set of stones I'm thinking it would be wise to do this while I'm ordering from around the world.

[Chuck Nickerson]

I'm now very seriously looking at the Benchcrafted tail vise and crisscross hardware. The plans also.
I hope it's not considered a cop-out to go with their plans. Would make life a lot easier. :)

My other bench is a split-top Roubo using the BC plans and vises; no regrets.

[Greg Fletcher]

Does the 400 bridge the gap between 120 and 1000?


For me it does. I still flatten backs with sandpaper on granite but I've had some dubbing problems. I'm tempted to try other methods like David's loose diamonds on a steel plate or some other method.

[Cody Armstrong]

My other bench is a split-top Roubo using the BC plans and vises; no regrets.

Today I received Schwarz workbench book and read through it.
I just pulled the trigger on the BC hardware and plans for the Roubo. No turning back now. :)

[Cody Armstrong]

For me it does. I still flatten backs with sandpaper on granite but I've had some dubbing problems. I'm tempted to try other methods like David's loose diamonds on a steel plate or some other method.

Not sure what dubbing means but I'll probably find out when learning to sharpen. I did a quick search on the forum and assume it means an edge is being knocked down when not wanted.

[James Owen]

For M & T chisels, take a look at the Ray Iles Oval Bolster Mortise Chisels from TFWW. D-2 - tougher than nails and holds an edge almost forever.

[Cody Armstrong]

Thanks for the recommendation^ on the Iles chisels. A lot of good comments on the forum about them.
I don't take recommendations lightly so I will go with these. The look stout as all get out.
Kinda seems these could be real collectors items one day. Probably wouldn't hurt to put together a whole set even if they weren't all used.

[Brian Holcombe]

Those look pretty nice, it's interesting to see someone using D2.

[Christopher Charles]

Hello Cody,

I also built the BC split top from plans, even though I don't typically use plans. You will not be disappointed by the bench.

Good luck!

[Cody Armstrong]

I started prepping the bench material today. Sometimes I really hate where I live. My local hardwood source carries nothing thicker than 4/4 most is already surfaced to 15-13/16. They can't even get 8/4 hard maple. Go figure.
So looks like they saved me some money. I've got post oak I had milled that should make a fine workbench. I've read the threads on using oak. Some say it's too porous and has a tendency to splinter. It's my easiest alternative and with only the cost of milling and my hard work I should be very happy with it. I'll get more satisfaction knowing where the tree came from and what it looked like before it was a bench. It's close to 8/4 in thickness and has been air drying since 2005.

Thank you for everyone's help so far.
With all the knowledge on the forum and some input on this thread I've been able to pick out some fine tools that should last me the rest of my life.
I've got quite a few ordered and have put a sizeable dent in my bank acc.
I was a carpenter for 15 yrs and never really worked with many traditional hand tools or used traditional joinery.
I feel it's going to open up a whole new world for me.

[Jim Koepke]

Sometimes I really hate where I live. My local hardwood source carries nothing thicker than 4/4

What about southern yellow pine? My understanding is that is good bench material.

Oak will likely be a great bench material.

I know around here some of the best material and prices come from the local sawyers.

jtk

[Cody Armstrong]

I had the choice of pine, white ash, or post oak. I've got a lot of each that I've had milled. The ash is somewhat few and far between in my area. I felt lucky to find the logs when I did so I chose to save it for furniture or cabinets.
I do have 2x6 pine but they are at the bottom of a stack of about 150 stickered 2x4. I haven't a clue who stacked them in such a manner that I can't get to the wider boards. :rolleyes:

[Wayne Stolte]

Not sure I'm much a fan of the English mortise chisels, I prefer the ones by Lie Nielsen.

[Cody Armstrong]

^Oh please don't say that.:o I don't want to know. The Iles English chisels shipped today. LOL

[Cody Armstrong]

I've got a quick question for someone.
I purchased and received the new Veritas rip and crosscut tenon saws. http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=71370&cat=1,42884,68511&ap=1
How straight should these be when eyeing down the cutting edge?
One has a definite S curve when I sight down the teeth. The other has a slight bow.
Should I be concerned with this? I cut a few tenons, some cut straight and others seemed to angle off the same way on some of the cuts. It may be user error as it is my fist time to cut tenons.
Seems to me they should be straight. I can post pics if it would help.

[Roderick Gentry]

I get to buy at the store, and I would not accept any curve. An S is bad. And arc is less so. If I am not mistaken, those latest carcass saws they brought out were 20 thou, which is fairly light, a lot of people will wreak those in a flash. I don't mean the LV ones, just in general. DT saws with backs and small blades were commercially 30 thou 10 or so years ago. Almost 4 times stiffer, on the smaller plan form.

If you are starting out with all this, then the tools help, but there is a skill thing also. It takes some people a long time, others are pretty natural.

Most important to practice. Get a piece of pine , and saw straight down, over and over. Pump the saw gently back and forth, do not follow a line, you will possibly twist to the line which is bad technique and can harm a saw. Watch the space on one side of the plate, and keep the gap even as the saw falls down.

[Jim Koepke]

I can post pics if it would help.

Pictures are always a help.

Before sawing, I would have given them a call.

jtk

[Cody Armstrong]

I didn't realize how hard it would be to get a good shot of a saw blade. After about 30 photos this is the best I could do.

279490279491

[Jim Koepke]

Even with not so great a shot that first one is definitely a "return to sender."

It could be shipping damage.

We pay for shipping & handling but don't always get the best handling by the shipping companies.

jtk

Like when someone asks my age. Now I say, 40ish plus shipping & handling.

[Cody Armstrong]

Ok. Thanks for looking Jim. I really do appreciate it.
I'd hate to start off sawing crooked tenons if it was because of a crooked saw. :)

Cody