Starting Fresh - What to Get?

[David Baldridge]

Hello everyone, I've been wanting to get a laser engraver/cutter for a while now, and whenever I do some research online, this forum invariably pops up, so I thought I'd join up and ask you myself. I originally wanted to get one just to engrave on leather, but when I discovered all the cool things that could be done with lasers I got excited for all the possibilities.

At first it would be more of a hobby laser but I have a friend with a promotional goods business that is interested in using it professionally, so I might as well get something that can satisfy my needs for the foreseeable.

My needs, as I understand them:

I'd like to be able to engrave and cut a variety of surfaces: leather, wood, metal, glass mostly, possibly acrylic as well.
I'd like as high-precision I can get
I need something with good construction and a good service record that won't be expensive to repair/replace parts when needed.
I'd like to have as large a cutting area as possible, up to 18x24", but if there's a huge cost break I'd go down to the 11x14" range (or smaller? my initial needs are more like 8x10").
I'll need a rotary attachment for engraving things like pint glasses (what else have you guys used a rotary attachment for? I'm curious).
I'll need some kind of ventilation/filtration attachment.


My Questions:

Whose lasers should I be looking at? I'm seeing a lot of domestic (I'm in California) and foreign makers. I thought it'd be easier to get something made locally, but it seems that a lot of people have had good luck with Shenhui lasers, and get more machine for their money. Conversely, I've seen some reports of domestic companies simply rebranding cheap Chinese lasers for a profit. So, should I just get my feet wet and get a smaller hobby laser from a someone local (and if so, from whom?) or go through the process of getting a laser from China?
if I get a more powerful laser and dial it back, is there any difference in the quality of the cut/engraving? In other words, are stronger lasers more versatile, or are there distinct advantages to having a less-powerful laser?
What's up with all the different kinds of lasers (I've mostly just been looking at the CO2 ones), and the different lenses/focal lengths. Do you change that stuff often or do you find a combination of lenses and settings that work best for you, and then stick with that?
What else would I need? spare parts? Are there any accessories or add-ons that you've found invaluable?
If I keep the laser at my buddy's promo business and he uses it, what kind of arrangement do you think is fair to both parties? I suppose I'm asking what a working hour on these machines is worth and what are the costs, because although I'd be using it for my own purposes as well, if he's using it professionally he'd be putting a lot more hours on it than me, which also puts more wear and tear on the machine. Is a percentage of any work he does on it a fair deal?
Lastly, what kind of advice do you wish you could've given yourself when you first got started?


Thanks a lot guys, looking forward to your feedback

[Ross Moshinsky]

I'd recommend a used 30W laser from a name brand company (Universal and Epilog would be the most common options). 30W lasers are versatile, reasonably priced, accurate, reliable, and easy to use. Also if you ever go to sell the equipment, you should get a reasonable return on your investment.

As for your questions:

1. It's risk/reward. You ship something from China and it goes badly, what can you really do about it? If you deal with someone "local", you can sue, complain, do a charge back, ect ect ect. Also customer service model will be different. At minimum it should be easier to communicate with a US seller vs someone in China.

2. On Western machines, within reason, you can do pretty much the same things with a 100w laser as you can with a 20w laser. The 100W tube you can obviously cut thicker materials and engrave faster/deeper. With Chinese machines it's a bit different. As the wattage increases, the tube becomes less reliable at lower wattages. Also you'll see with higher wattage tubes the spot size increases, which may be an issue.

3. You should do a search on this, but the reality is most of the time you'll be fine with a 2" lens.

4. From a US company you don't need spares (at least theoretically). Importing from China, you should buy one of everything pretty much. The cost is low enough to justify the expense.

5. Don't keep your machine at your buddy's. If he wants it in his shop, he should at least be a partner. I don't recommend that either actually. Buy it, keep it yourself. When he has a job for you, you do it and he pays you. Theoretically you should charge the same amount as the ASI vendors he's buying the stuff from but a more realistic approach is giving him a 5-10% discount. That way you're not selling yourself too short and he has a reason to use you. Don't work for free.

6. I don't think you should base your business on your buddy's promotional business. On small runs you can probably beat certain prices but most of the time you're not going to have the right equipment to be competitive. I've had little luck working with promotional businesses. They like to waste my time when the reality is all they are doing is shopping around for the best deal. I'm at the point with one company where I'm not even going to bid anymore.

[Travis Wizniuk]

I Posted in another thread recently.. I was in your situation about a month ago...

I decided on a LG900N from G. Weike.. I can't comment on it yet as it just got loaded on the boat. I looked all over, and just couldn't beat the value offered by the Chinese lasers. I picked G. Weike as I felt they had the best value for price and support. Other companies that interested me were Redsail and Shenhui. In the end, G. Weike seemed the best fit.

Now... I may be a little different as I have some background in Electronics. So I was't afraid of having to troubleshoot if things went wrong. The Mulitmeter and me are good friends ;)

[Scott Shepherd]

I think Ross gave some excellent advice.

[David Baldridge]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your input. I was looking at ULS but it was a big pill to swallow for what was to be (at first) a hobby tool. Is there a good resource for used gear that you guys know of? Just did a quick search and found a few on this site

http://www.laserresale.com/?fa=app.view&it=6144 pretty old and it looks like it's been collecting dust for a while, it's cheap but is it worth the hassle? And if the tubes have a shelf life, it'll probably cost a lot more to get it up and running.

http://www.laserresale.com/?fa=app.view&it=6145 almost new and with most of the attachments I wanted. More than I was hoping to spend but a reasonable investment if everything works out the box, no?

What kind of cost would I be looking at with a Chinese laser with similar capabilities to the Epilog 24 I linked to? Does it make more sense to get a larger unit if I'm going through all the rigmarole of importing from China?

I just wish I knew someone who had one I could play with before I make such a large purchase!

[Scott Shepherd]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your input. I was looking at ULS but it was a big pill to swallow for what was to be (at first) a hobby tool. Is there a good resource for used gear that you guys know of? Just did a quick search and found a few on this site

I saw a Trotec Speedy 100 on ebay a while back selling for $4,000 with a buy it now button. Had less than 50 hours on it, looked like it was brand new. I came really close to buying it just because it was so cheap. People sell lasers all the time. Check the classified section on this forum, I've seen some incredible deals on lasers in there too. You don't get long because they normally go quick, so you have to watch for them and be ready to act when one comes up.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your input. I was looking at ULS but it was a big pill to swallow for what was to be (at first) a hobby tool. Is there a good resource for used gear that you guys know of? Just did a quick search and found a few on this site

http://www.laserresale.com/?fa=app.view&it=6144 pretty old and it looks like it's been collecting dust for a while, it's cheap but is it worth the hassle? And if the tubes have a shelf life, it'll probably cost a lot more to get it up and running.

http://www.laserresale.com/?fa=app.view&it=6145 almost new and with most of the attachments I wanted. More than I was hoping to spend but a reasonable investment if everything works out the box, no?

What kind of cost would I be looking at with a Chinese laser with similar capabilities to the Epilog 24 I linked to? Does it make more sense to get a larger unit if I'm going through all the rigmarole of importing from China?

I just wish I knew someone who had one I could play with before I make such a large purchase!

If you're going to import from China and have the space, I would suggest not to go smaller than 600x900 (24x36) and or under 60W. I'd probably go for 80/90W, which most suggests can cut and engrave at a more than acceptable level. The value from China is the power and size you get for the money. If you wanted a laser with those specs from a Western Company, you're looking at around $25-35k. From China, you're looking at maybe 8-10k. Now let's say you buy a 50W Chinese laser with a 12x24 table for $4k. You can buy something like that new from a Western Company for around $15k and used for around $8-10k. Yeah, it's still $5-10,000 saved but it's just not as good of a deal. Not even close when you consider what you're giving up.

I still recommend a working condition used Western laser more often than not for people who want versatility and are just starting out. If you said you want to vector cut all day long, I'd tell you to buy a Chinese unit. If you want to cut and engrave and need customer support, reliability, and ease of use the Western lasers are worth the money more often than not. Be patient and shop around. Something will pop up eventually. Also remember, if you need to sell an Epilog or Universal in a year or two, it will sell no problem. If you want to sell a Chinese machine, don't expect the same type of response. Rodne is a big advocate of Chinese lasers and he treats them as disposable devices more or less. Just shows you how they are perceived in the market by someone who uses them on a daily basis.

[Scott Shepherd]

Now let's say you buy a 50W Chinese laser with a 12x24 table for $4k. You can buy something like that new from a Western Company for around $15k and used for around $8-10k. Yeah, it's still $5-10,000 saved but it's just not as good of a deal. Not even close when you consider what you're giving up.



You can get a 12" x 24" Epilog, Universal, or Trotec all for less than $10,000. Zing, VLS, Rayjet are all entry level and under $10,000.

[Travis Wizniuk]

I'll update Ross's information.. You can get a Chinese 600X900 90W for about 5 - 6K landed (in Canada). Even cheaper if you skip all the options..

Seriously.. Check with G. Weike, Redsail or Shenhui.. I will send you my sales lady's e-mail from G. Weike if you are interested.

[John Bion]

If you can do so, go for a Western machine. I have Two Chinese machines, one is 'generally' OK, the other has been problematic. Support is limited and can take a long time to deliver just when you need it the most. For a hobby this may be OK, for a small business it can be make or break as you need the machine to run and run well and in the event there is a problem you need support asap. If you were to think Chinese, I would strongly advise purchasing from a local agent who has a good track record (in the USA Rabbit Laser comes to my mind).
Regards, John

[Ross Moshinsky]

You can get a 12" x 24" Epilog, Universal, or Trotec all for less than $10,000. Zing, VLS, Rayjet are all entry level and under $10,000.

50w? Shipped? Rotary? Crappy exhaust fan and air pump? I may be wrong, but $10,000 is on the light side if I remember the prices I was given about 12 months ago.


I'll update Ross's information.. You can get a Chinese 600X900 90W for about 5 - 6K landed (in Canada). Even cheaper if you skip all the options..

Seriously.. Check with G. Weike, Redsail or Shenhui.. I will send you my sales lady's e-mail from G. Weike if you are interested.

I'm including everything. Once you pay customs, shipping again to your location, and for extra parts I'm pretty sure my pricing is fairly accurate. I'd rather be on the high side anyway. It's better to budget high and be pleasantly surprised.

[Travis Wizniuk]

50w? Shipped? Rotary? Crappy exhaust fan and air pump? I may be wrong, but $10,000 is on the light side if I remember the prices I was given about 12 months ago.



I'm including everything. Once you pay customs, shipping again to your location, and for extra parts I'm pretty sure my pricing is fairly accurate. I'd rather be on the high side anyway. It's better to budget high and be pleasantly surprised.


Hhhmm things must cost a lot more where you are.. I'm in the process of doing it right now and I have all my costs already quoted... 6K is definitely on the high side for me.. To be fair though, I run an import business and have relationships with shipping companies and brokerage..

I like to be realistic as I found lots of people were under quoting western machines and over quoting Chinese machines.. I bought my for hobby use initially and the value offered by Chinese lasers was exceptional. I can deal with some problems when I'm saving 15K.

P.S. No customs in Canada, we have free trade with China... Only Goods and Services Tax at %5.

[Jerome Stanek]

I have a quote from Melody at GWeike on a 900 80 watt with spare lens 3 spare mirrors red dot pointer honey comb table blower and air pump including shipping and insurance $3150 for 900N $3300 for 900stand unit.

[Travis Wizniuk]

I have a quote from Melody at GWeike on a 900 80 watt with spare lens 3 spare mirrors red dot pointer honey comb table blower and air pump including shipping and insurance $3150 for 900N $3300 for 900stand unit.


Yes... Now don't be shocked.... You need to add about $2000 for fees once its landed... I'm serious... Don't sell it short.. If you don't have relationships with a brokerage, you can expect to pay about 400 - 700 on that alone (maybe more).. You will be shocked at the various fees that come up.. If you are a first time importer, you can probably expect an "Inspection" fee (around $200 - $400).

If its below $2K, then great, but this way you won't be shocked.

[David Somers]

Folks do seem to have pretty consistent experiences with Shenhui and GWeike from what I can see. And the $$ savings is considerable. But as a serious hobbiest, and someone with a day job that ties up 10 to 12 hours a day plus my time bicycle commuting I can't take the chance of having to babysit the process. Because of that when I am ready I will go with the folks at Rabbit. I will pay more, but still way less than what I would pay for one of the big 3 Western brands. And everything I see and hear from folks is that they are great to work with, responsive and responsible, and a pretty safe bet. For me at least, that is a good compromise.

Keep in mind I am a hobbiest woodturner with a desire to burn things and build some capacity for retirement.

If you work with those two brands I think you will be good. Just check with all of us in your country that have done the import thing and get the ins and outs down well!!


Fingers are crossed for a great experience for you!!! And a terrific Holiday as well!!!

Dave

[David Baldridge]

hmm! you've all given me a lot to think about, I'm going to have to mull it over and keep my eyes on the classifieds. It does make sense to get a used domestic model to get familiar with the trade, and I like that they retain their resale value a bit better in case I want to upgrade later. If I get into this and want more bang for my buck then I can buy a big, powerful unit from China down the road (thanks for the breakdown, Ross). I'm not scared of importing or all that, but for my first laser it would probably be really nice to have the extra support, since I'm pretty much on my own.

so Canada has no customs with China, alas I'm in the CA in the states; what kind of hoops would I need to jump through and whose palms need to be greased to import a Chinese laser for myself? Would a local agent like Rabbit Laser handle all that for me? If so it seems worth it to go through the agent!

One capability I'm stoked about is the ability to cut wood to make flatpack products and living hinges; would the 40-60W range be sufficient to cut wood and similar materials, or is it just a matter of time and efficiency? It looks like the flatpack stuff gets up to 1/4" thick, do you guys have any experience with making stuff like this? http://www.pinterest.com/cgb50/living-hinge/

what about high relief engraving like this? http://www.cmstatic1.com/134690/134690.444074.jpg

I'm getting all excited about the possibilities! Thanks for all your help!

[David Somers]

David,

At least in terms of Rabbit, they have already done the importing, made any modifications, checked them to be sure they are functioning correctly, and if I understand them correctly when we talked on the phone, they also have someone come out and help you with the setup, run you through the hoops, answer questions, basically give you a leg up on how to use that. i guess they found doing that was well worth their time as opposed to leaving users to fend for themselves at startup.

Their web site is rabbitlaserusa.com if you want to check them out. Ray and his wife Carole Scott are the owners.

Dave

[David Baldridge]

Hey guys, I want to thank you again for your help and input before. I just wanted to update you since I've been slow to take action, a direct result from having a day-job that limits the amount of time I can dedicate to pursue these "hobbies."

I found a local maker space (www.hackerlab.org (http://www.hackerlab.org)) that has a laser cutter and joined to learn and gain experience with the equipment. They have an 80W CO2 Morn laser cutter, which is admittedly one of the most popular pieces of equipment there. There's apparently a local distributor nearby in Stockton, CA for Morn. With something like a 24x36" bed, rotary attachment and all the bells and whistles, I think they paid around 8-10k for it a few years ago.

It's been fantastic learning about it and getting to make stuff with it, and the cost of a membership is a lot easier to swallow than what I'd spend on my own unit which wouldn't pay for itself unless I really put it to work (time being my most limited resource). My first project was to prototype a lightbox with cut paper, for a friend's birthday (she's a professional mermaid). Check it out :)

306517 306518
It's about 8x8x2" Used the laser to cut the box, paper and acrylic. I also used a LED controller, so the colors can be changed or set to cycle, which gives it a cool, ethereal nightlight effect. There's a couple more background layers you can't see too well in the photos.

Cheers!

[Bert Kemp]

Not paying attention that this post is 2 years old my 2 cents worth is now 8 cents worth and irrelevant:D:D:D;):p
I'll throw my 2 cents in here. I needed a good machine with good support. I ended up with a Rabbit Laser bought from Rabbit Laser In Ohio. Its the best built Chinese laser and you get US support which is top notch. I have a 60 watt co2 with a 24 x 16 bed 9 inch up down table. I engrave lots of leather and cut up to 1/4 Plywood with out any problems so far. a little over 6 k . Of course if you have 12 K or more to buy an equivalent Western then by all means get the best, but for a hobby machine and small buisness you couldn't go wrong with a Rabbit.

[David Baldridge]

Thanks Bert! If I do make a purchase, Rabbit is definitely in the top running. The only thing going against them is the distance, which is more a concern than a dealbreaker. I'm pleased to see that the cost of lasers is creeping downwards, or so it seems.

[Junior hall]

you can also look at bosslaser www.bosslaser.com they are wounderful customer support people as they are always there. Yes the machines are Chinese made and imported to the USA as they go threw them and put most usa parts CAll them ask for Qrue, Robbie Michelle and speak to them They have decent prices and you can also get them financed i got a bosslaser 1620 it does what i want. I could not ask for better customer support than them as i put them threw hell asking millions of questions and raising hell fixing to threw the machine in the middle of the road as i couldn't understand nothing of the machine which was my fault because i dint know it came with a manual. They will also do remote access to show you step by step no other company i know does that for there customers. If i had to buy another laser machine i go to bosslaser

[Bert Kemp]

I forgot to mention that Ray Scott goes to most new customers homes sets up the laser and trains you on it. Read Michele's last post this morning, I actually was in transit from the east coast to AZ and picked up my machine on the way home. I spent an entire day at Rabbit Laser getting trained then they packed my machine and loaded it on my truck and off I went.:)
Thanks Bert! If I do make a purchase, Rabbit is definitely in the top running. The only thing going against them is the distance, which is more a concern than a dealbreaker. I'm pleased to see that the cost of lasers is creeping downwards, or so it seems.

[Bill George]

Hey guys, I want to thank you again for your help and input before. I just wanted to update you since I've been slow to take action, a direct result from having a day-job that limits the amount of time I can dedicate to pursue these "hobbies."

I found a local maker space (www.hackerlab.org (http://www.hackerlab.org)) that has a laser cutter and joined to learn and gain experience with the equipment. They have an 80W CO2 Morn laser cutter, which is admittedly one of the most popular pieces of equipment there. There's apparently a local distributor nearby in Stockton, CA for Morn. With something like a 24x36" bed, rotary attachment and all the bells and whistles, I think they paid around 8-10k for it a few years ago.

It's been fantastic learning about it and getting to make stuff with it, and the cost of a membership is a lot easier to swallow than what I'd spend on my own unit which wouldn't pay for itself unless I really put it to work (time being my most limited resource). My first project was to prototype a lightbox with cut paper, for a friend's birthday (she's a professional mermaid). Check it out :)

306517 306518
It's about 8x8x2" Used the laser to cut the box, paper and acrylic. I also used a LED controller, so the colors can be changed or set to cycle, which gives it a cool, ethereal nightlight effect. There's a couple more background layers you can't see too well in the photos.

Cheers!

Beautiful. What type and weight paper did you find worked best?

[David Baldridge]

Thanks again, it's good to see there are more options out there, and a handful of US-based distributors of Chinese lasers, as it mitigates a lot of the support-related risks you'd be taking on by buying direct from the manufacturer.


Beautiful. What type and weight paper did you find worked best?
Thanks Bill, for the background layers (which I wanted to let through more light) I used thin rice paper I picked up from the art store (for calligraphy). For the characters and foreground elements I used a heavier stock. I had paper examples lying around so I'm not entirely sure what it was, but it was something similar to watercolor paper or cardstock. I sandwiched all the layers in acrylic sheets, which held everything together nicely and added a sense of weight to the box.

[Clark Pace]

Folks do seem to have pretty consistent experiences with Shenhui and GWeike from what I can see. And the $$ savings is considerable. But as a serious hobbiest, and someone with a day job that ties up 10 to 12 hours a day plus my time bicycle commuting I can't take the chance of having to babysit the process. Because of that when I am ready I will go with the folks at Rabbit. I will pay more, but still way less than what I would pay for one of the big 3 Western brands. And everything I see and hear from folks is that they are great to work with, responsive and responsible, and a pretty safe bet. For me at least, that is a good compromise.

Keep in mind I am a hobbiest woodturner with a desire to burn things and build some capacity for retirement.

If you work with those two brands I think you will be good. Just check with all of us in your country that have done the import thing and get the ins and outs down well!!


Fingers are crossed for a great experience for you!!! And a terrific Holiday as well!!!

Dave

Or buy 2 chinese machines. Same make.