Fence not square to the table

[Chris Kennedy]

I need some help. After having trouble getting some boards to align properly for a glue-up, I discovered that my TS fence (a Biesemeyer on a zip code saw) is not square to the table. It is parallel to the miter slot and blade, but if I set a square between the table and fence, I can see significant daylight on one side of the fence (the other side is fine). Unfortunately, it is on the side that I mostly use.

I can't see any way to adjust this. Any suggestions?


Chris

[John Downey]

If you are ripping it shouldn't matter, width might be off a hair but nothing more. If you are using the fence as a register for some kind of plumb cut, then it will matter.

One option is to lift one side of the fence by adding a shim under the appropriate side of the angle iron that locks it to the rail. Quick but less than ideal because the fence itself could flex some where it is not resting on the table.

Another option is to add a sacrificial strip on the side you want to shim, same size as the one that is there from the factory, and add shims between the two. Not sure you could re-set your scale reading by that much, but it would get you a plumb fence face.

Similarly, you could shim the factory face, between whatever it is and the tube steel of the fence - if you can figure out how to loosen it. I don't remember it being obvious on a Biesmeyer, but then I haven't looked closely at one in 15 years or more.

[Richard Coers]

Biesemeyer always had two nylon set screws on the angle iron that clamps to the steel beam. Turn one of them to adjust for square. If you don't have that, either shim the wood layer on the fence or change the mounting of the angle iron bolted to the saw that carries the beam.

[Kyle Iwamoto]

Your fence is parallel to the blade and miter slot, but not square (perpendicular) to the table? I agree with both the above, it should not matter, and it should be adjustable.

I have to ask the obvious. Did you check if the blade is 90.0 degrees?

[Chris Kennedy]

It not being square does make a difference -- that was how I found it. I was gluing up two long boards and I could not get the boards to fit flush. They would be okay in spots and then gaps in others. My guess is that as I shifted my hands during the cut, the edge of the board tilted against the fence and gave a bevel in spots. Once I ripped it on the other side of the fence, everything went together fine. Unfortunately using the other side of the fence is not a long term solution.

Probably for shorter and thinner stock, it won't make a difference, but it is frustrating.

Basically, I am getting point contact at the base of the fence. And I agree -- it should be adjustable, but I can find no way to do so. The set screws adjust the wrong axis.

Chris

[Jerry Miner]

The set screws adjust the wrong axis.

Look again at the angle-iron that rides on the rail. He's not talking about the set screws on the rear face of that angle iron (which adjust for square to blade), but the nylon set screws on the top surface.

The faces of Biesemeyer fences (at least all that I have seen) are attached to the fence with machine screws before the plastic laminate is applied, so the attachment screws are buried and not accessible for adjustment. One option is to remove the laminate and/or remove the facing and replace or adjust (by shimming or shaving).

[Chris Kennedy]

Look again at the angle-iron that rides on the rail. He's not talking about the set screws on the rear face of that angle iron (which adjust for square to blade), but the nylon set screws on the top surface.

I went and double-checked -- at least on mine, there aren't set screws on the top. There are lugs on the nylon pads that mate with holes in the top of the angle iron, but they aren't screws and don't seem to have any adjustment capability.

Chris

[Jerry Miner]

OK. Sorry if I sent you on a wild goose chase. Either there was a design change, or my memory failed (either is equally likely).

In theory, I guess, you could shim the pad with something slippery, but if it were me, I'd attack the facing---especially since you say one side is good now. You might be able to carefully dig out the screw heads---they can often be felt by hand---almost certainly found with a magnet---and loosen enough to shim. You may have to/want to drill some access holes in the bottom of the fence to access the nuts inside the tube.

[George Bokros]

OK. Sorry if I sent you on a wild goose chase. Either there was a design change, or my memory failed (either is equally likely).

In theory, I guess, you could shim the pad with something slippery, but if it were me, I'd attack the facing---especially since you say one side is good now. You might be able to carefully dig out the screw heads---they can often be felt by hand---almost certainly found with a magnet---and loosen enough to shim. You may have to/want to drill some access holes in the bottom of the fence to access the nuts inside the tube.

I checked my Bies Home Shop Fence and it is not perpendicular by a few thousandths to the table. I do not have any issues with joints not meeting for glue up and when I check ripped stock the edge is square to the face. Looking into the fence from the open end there are multiple screws which do not have nuts on the inside. The laminate on the fence face is too thick to feel the where the screws are located and I doubt a magnet would locate them anyway. There is no adjustment to square the fence to the table only adjustments to square the fence to the miter slot.

George

[Chris Parks]

I would suggest that if the glue faces are not square to each other then the blade is not perpendicular to the table. You did not specify what is not lining up so I am only guessing.

[Cary Falk]

If you don't have the nylon screws on the top of the fence the only to adjust the fence is to loosen all the bolts in the fence except the one on the end and lift or push down till the fence is square.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q297/caryincamas/sfcf2_zpsa3c8dbfb.jpg

[glenn bradley]

The Bies on the 22124 is squared to the table by adjusting the front tube unless the fence face is fouled. Position the fence so that it sets physically on the saw table (disengaged from the front rail). Check the fence fave to table for 90*. If this is OK, adjust the tube to a dive this table to fence relationship when riding on the tube. Alternate method is to replace the fence face and shim to 90*. Either method only works if the front tube to tabletop relationship is consistent so, I would just adjust the tube alone if that will do the trick.

[Bobby O'Neal]

Gentlemen, it's an obvious problem and an even more obvious solution.

The fence is haunted.

You need a new 3HP cabinet saw. It should come with an awesome fence.

All the best.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Use some laquar thinner to remove plastic. Check backer board, loosen screws and shim where necessary. Remember that if you add something to square to table surface, you will also have to shim length wise. Use fresh contact cement and replace face, or just make a replacement face from 1/2" BB.

[Dick Brown]

If I understand the post, the right side face of the fence is perpendicular to the table but the left is not. If that is the case, shifting the rails or shimming under the front angle will just trade one problem for another. Number one thing to do is set your rails so they are exactly parallel to the table top and the gap is the same from the fence faces to the table anywhere you set the fence. I have my clearance about 1/16" end to end of the fence and anywhere I put it side to side on the table. I use an angle iron rail on the rear of the saw and a uhmw block on the under side of the fence riding on it rather than the block sliding on the saw top but that is personal preference. When the rails are set to suit you and if the left face is still not perpendicular but the right one is, time to remove the face. Maybe the fence tube is not perfectly rectangular. Take a small punch, awl, or nail and probe the Formica till you find the fasteners (screw or bolt) Might even use a small ball peen hammer an lightly tap to find them. Once you find two of them, measure to find the others. Take the face off, check the tube for square and straight, shim as needed with pop can tin, masking tape, what ever till it comes square to the table top and is flat. If your fence face is shot after you get it off, you can make a new one with it as a pattern to get the holes in the right spots. I have used birch, walnut, uhmw, plywood with Formica, but my favorite is Corian for the faces. Take your time, check everything twice as you go and it will all work out. One last thought -- Check you blade insert to be positive it doesn't have a high corner and raise your blade clear up and check for 90 degrees from the table top. You probably already have, but if not,do these and make any corrections before doing anything else

[scott spencer]

You can always make an aux fence and shim those faces until they're parallel with the table.

http://images.meredith.com/wood/images/2011/02/p_100205343_100205343.jpg

[Greg Peterson]

I have to wonder if the reference edge has been properly jointed.

The description of the problem indicates high/low spots along the ripped edge.

What happens when you try to glue up two jointed edges? Do they match up perfectly?

[Frank Drew]

My modest suggestion would be to adjust one's ripping technique: If the saw blade is perpendicular to the table, then making sure to keep the work flat on the table while ripping should produce square-edged cuts, even with less than 100% contact with a slightly canted but otherwise straight fence.

[Greg Peterson]

My guess is that as I shifted my hands during the cut, the edge of the board tilted against the fence and gave a bevel in spots.

I would be extremely concerned if the board 'lifted' enough during the cut to leave less than a 90 degree edge. If indeed this is what is occurring, you are going to have a bigger problem than uneven rips. The board should remain flat during the entire cut.

I can think of problems a non-perpendicular fence face could produce, but an edge that deviates intermittently from 90 degrees is not one of them.

Perhaps I am not understanding the problem?

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I agree with Greg.

The blade being perpendicular to the table top is what sets the angle on the edge of a board being ripped.

[Jason White]

Having a fence square to the table is absolutely important, especially if you plan to use jigs that ride along the fence.

Use a heat gun and carefully pry off the laminate, then set it aside to reuse. Next, loosen the sheet metal screws holding the plywood onto the square, steel tube. Use masking tape to shim the plywood face square to the table (usually one or two strips on the top or bottom of the metal tube is all that's needed. Then, screw the plywood back onto the tube and use contact cement and a J-roller to reattach the laminate.



I need some help. After having trouble getting some boards to align properly for a glue-up, I discovered that my TS fence (a Biesemeyer on a zip code saw) is not square to the table. It is parallel to the miter slot and blade, but if I set a square between the table and fence, I can see significant daylight on one side of the fence (the other side is fine). Unfortunately, it is on the side that I mostly use.

I can't see any way to adjust this. Any suggestions?


Chris

[Chris Parks]

Try another square and check it first before use.

[Chris Kennedy]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will likely try removing the face and trying to shim it after Christmas.

I've checked (and double-checked) everything else. The blade is square (and more to the point, if the blade were not perpendicular, when I ripped using the other side of the fence, I would have had the same problem, just canted in the other direction). The jointer fence is square to the table and jointed edges mate well.

Chris

[Chris Parks]

Thanks for the suggestions. I will likely try removing the face and trying to shim it after Christmas.

I've checked (and double-checked) everything else. The blade is square (and more to the point, if the blade were not perpendicular, when I ripped using the other side of the fence, I would have had the same problem, just canted in the other direction). The jointer fence is square to the table and jointed edges mate well.

Chris

The fence perpindicularity (new word for the day) will have no effect on what you are cutting if the board takes its reference to the blade from the table top. If you were standing the board on edge against the fence and the fence was the dominant reference then yes then the fence dictates the angle to the blade.

[Cliff Furman]

Having a fence square to the table is absolutely important, especially if you plan to use jigs that ride along the fence.

Use a heat gun and carefully pry off the laminate, then set it aside to reuse. Next, loosen the sheet metal screws holding the plywood onto the square, steel tube. Use masking tape to shim the plywood face square to the table (usually one or two strips on the top or bottom of the metal tube is all that's needed. Then, screw the plywood back onto the tube and use contact cement and a J-roller to reattach the laminate.


That's the way to fix it. I have a Jet Xacta fence (Biews clone) and they have nylon adjustment screws on the fence, to adjust for 90 deg. to table.

When Lowes was giving Bies. fence kits away for $50, and less, I got one with the same problem. I called Bies, and without even asking where I bought it, or for proof of purchase, the lady said they would send me a new fence! I later found out it was a day or so, before they were closing the plant! Right call at the right time!

[glenn bradley]

My modest suggestion would be to adjust one's ripping technique: If the saw blade is perpendicular to the table, then making sure to keep the work flat on the table while ripping should produce square-edged cuts, even with less than 100% contact with a slightly canted but otherwise straight fence.

If all you did was rip dimensional material that presented a reference edge at the table/fence junction this would work well. I use my tablesaw fence with material standing vertically at times as well as with profiled edges as as the reference edge which do not contact the table at the fence/table junction. I also have jigs that attach to the fence or rely on it as a reference in such a was as to make an unknown angle unusable. The variation of use will amplify the problem of poor vertical precision.

The fence is probably not defective. There is a simple hardboard gauge supplied that allows you to set the front rail position using the table top as a reference. While usable, I substituted a combo square. Like many items that have fallen under a certain company umbrella, the documentation supplied with the fence has gone to pot. There are a few "better than Bies" fences out there that allow perpendicular adjustment but, if properly installed on a properly aligned saw, the Bies is no problem.

Things required to align your Biesemeyer (I am making this up based on experience and it is probably worth what you are paying ;)):

Your saw top and extension wings/tableboards must be co-planer.

That is; they must be dead flat in relation to each other. This is your reference surface for the rest of the setup so, if you don't have this right, you may as well just wing it.
I always have the machine level with Mother Earth before I start any of these procedures.


The front rail (not the tube) is what you are aligning to the top surfaces of the saw.

If the front rail will not align due to physical adjustment limits, enlarge the offending holes to allow this adjustment.

Enlarge the holes in the saw as the holes in the rail are coutersunk.
Add larger/thicker washers behind to provide a larger/stouter bearing surface.



Install the tube and check your alignment.

If subtle variations in the tube, paint, weld splatter, whatever, cause the tube to not align correctly you can sand, file or shim your way to happiness.


Once the tube is known to be good, the fence faces should align as perpendicular to the table top.


Now, having got that all out of my system I will say that I wanted the fence to set a bit closer to the table top than the stock setting. It is just a few bolts and a bit of time (a bit of time that you will never have to give up again) so I lowered the rail, thereby lowering the tube and fence. I also modified the skid, shoe or whatever they call the piece of nylon or laminate that the far end of the fence has stuck to the bottom of it to ride the table. This was just a couple of swipes with a card scraper to get things setting pretty. The Beis holds its alignment so well that when the saw went to a new owner, I marked the positions of the main front rail and when we reassembled at the saw's new home, everything was already aligned. We had, of course already leveled the machine and the top/wings before starting installation.

[John Downey]

The jointer fence is square to the table and jointed edges mate well.

Now I'm really confused :D (but don't worry, I do confuse easily :D )

I'd assumed you were gluing up boards right off the saw for lack of a jointer. Why not joint one edge, rip a hair over size, then joint down to final width before glue up?

I don't think I've ever checked that my TS fence is plumb to the table. To be quite honest, the problem you describe sounds more like a blade vibration than anything else. It's unusual, but I've seen it once, and with a quality blade - Tenryu IIRC, wasn't mine - The effect was a rip cut with slight "corrugation" on maybe an 8" or 12" period.

[Chris Parks]

To take this a bit further. IF the fence is square to the top on one face only my next step would be to rip it off the saw and check it for square all round as you would a piece of dimensioned timber. Having said that it is not important that it be square all round if it is only used as a guide and the table used as the reference. it is important that it be straight end to end though if it were bent end to end AWAY from the blade after the cutting area even that won't effect the quality of the cut, in fact it might even enhance it. The fence on a lot of European saws is adjustable so that it can be retracted to the first point of contact with the blade and not go beyond that to reduce the risk of kick back from the fence causing the timber to get caught on the trailing edge of the blade. The timber contacting with the trailing edge is what causes kick back and why manufacturers use a full length fence is one of life's mysteries. I know, shock, horror but we need the full length to keep things straight, my saw can't possibly work that way etc etc. It can and will and reduces the dangers of kick back to just about zero.

[Chris Kennedy]

Now I'm really confused :D (but don't worry, I do confuse easily :D )

I'd assumed you were gluing up boards right off the saw for lack of a jointer. Why not joint one edge, rip a hair over size, then joint down to final width before glue up?


I guess I could do just that. My usual procedure has been the customary -- joint an edge, then a face, plane the opposite face parallel and then rip to width. I have a good ripping blade, and I have done this a bunch of times without trouble. The edges I glue together are usually dictated by aesthetics. I haven't had a problem prior to this last glue up. It has driven me a little crazy trying to find the problem. I wouldn't have thought to check the Bies but I had ruled everything else out.

Chris

[John Downey]

Its funny, I would have said the customary was to only glue jointed edges :D Amazing how perspectives vary!

I joint the face first, then the first edge - that way they are perpendicular. Plane the other face, or rip to width ++, those two are interchangeable. Then joint off another 1/32" or so. Usually I take a handplane and spring the joint as well, but I don't always bother depending on what I'm making.

[Jerry Miner]

My usual procedure has been -- joint an edge, then a face,...

Really? IMO you should be jointing a face first, then an edge. SOP where I come from