Titebond Cold Press for Veneer Glue, I don't understand it.

[Bill Huber]

I am doing a little veneer work, this is the first time for me doing it. I am using that paper thin veneer and putting it on some flat 5" x 12" boards.

So not knowing what I am doing I got some Titebond Cold Press for Veneer Glue. The stuff is really funny, I will clamp things up for 4 hours and check it and it will still be about the same as it came out of the bottle on the edges that I can get to, no scale on it or anything.

I un-clamp things and it is fine, the veneer is glued to the board just fine and I can sand it and cut the boards.

I just don't understand the glue, does it have to have the pressure to set? It states that the pressure should be 100 to 250 psi depending on the substrate so I have no idea what it should be for say Hard Maple.

I put the glue on the veneer real heavy they state 6 mils or 250 square feet per gallon, so I have no idea how much to use. 6 mils is not very thick but I don't have anyway to measure it.

I have a 3/4" MDF board with a plastic sheet on it then the veneer with the glue, the board, the next glued veneer , a plastic sheet and then another 3/4" MDF. All of this is clamped with 4, Cabinet Master clamps and 4 cauls as tight as I can get them.

So do I really need the Titebond Cold Press for Veneer Glue or could I use just TBIII and get the same results.

Is there something about the veneer glue that makes it better then just using normal glues?

[Mike Henderson]

I've never used the titebond cold press but I've used Elmer's GlueAll quite a bit and it works fine. The reason I use the Elmer's is for speed - you can take it out of press in about 30 minutes (although I usually leave it a bit longer). I like to let it cure a bit more before working it but 30 minutes of press is usually sufficient.

Regarding glue for veneer, however, many people like to use a glue that's harder, such as urea formaldehyde (UF). When UF glue cures it's very hard with no creep at all but it takes much longer to cure, maybe six hours, depending on temperature. I wrap an electric blanket around my vacuum bag and put it on high when I use UF glue. Some UF glues won't cure below about 70 degrees F.

Mike

[Regarding how thick to lay the glue, I find it's a matter of experience. If you don't put enough, you'll have spots where the veneer won't adhere. If you put too much, you can have a mess with the glue extruding around the sides, or even glue pockets within the veneer area. A lot of what I do is marquetry so I tend to go a bit heavy on the UF glue to get it to come up in any gaps I have between the pieces.]

[HANK METZ]

I'm using it in this video, peculiar stuff as it tends to require constant stirring else the constituents fall out of solution rather fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTLzekpCkM
I didn't find it to be any better than plain 'ol T.B. I, II, or III, so I pretty much use what's on hand for my pressings. I know what you mean about veneer nowadays, just when you think they can't slice it any thinner they figure out a way to make 'em 10 thou less than before. Pretty soon thickness will have to be measured in angstroms.

[Bill Huber]

Thanks Mike...

That is just the normal Elmer's white glue correct?

This stuff is hard as a brick when it does dry and just before it get real dry it is really sticky.

I have noticed that the glue will come though the veneer, it sands right off and it does not effect the finish in any way that I have noticed so far.

I guess I will just use this until it's gone and then try something else that is a little faster.

[Mike Henderson]

Yep, normal white glue. If it comes through the veneer, you can wash it off with a wet rag. Yellow glue won't do that.

The disadvantage is that if the work was ever submerged in water for a while (like a flood) the veneer would peel off. But if it was submerged in water, you're likely to have many other problems that will ruin the work. For example, if you used MDF as a substrate it will fall apart. If you used solid wood as a substrate it probably will expand enough to crack the veneer, etc.

Mike

[Oh, one more thing. I was taught to only put glue on the substrate and none on the veneer because the veneer can absorb water from the glue (most glues are water based) and warp before you get the work into press (if the veneer expands before you get it pressed, you'll have a "fold" in the veneer). However, I found that it depends on the veneer. For anything but a really difficult veneer (usually a rotary cut veneer), I'll put glue (just enough to get a thin coating) around the outside of the veneer because that's one place you want to make really sure you have good adhesion.]

[Bill Huber]

Hank, it is funny how I do things, don't know why but then when you see how someone else does it, it looks much better.

I have been putting the glue on the veneer and now I see how you do it, it looks like a lot better to put it on the substrate first, the veneer curls a lot the way have been doing it and it is hard to work with.

So today when I do it I am going to put it on the substrate first and roll it good first and then clamp it.

Thanks for the video, it helped.

[Mike Henderson]

I watched Hank's video and I do a few things different from him.

First, I use a small paint roller to spread the glue. I used to use a spreader, like he does, but found that I could get a more even spread with a paint roller. With white glue you can wash the paint roller, but with UF glue it's a throw away.

Second, I always put a layer of plastic over the veneer before I put it into press. I usually use a caul, rather than pressing against the platen. The reason for the plastic is to keep the work from getting glued to the caul if any glue seeps through the veneer.

But beyond that, my process is pretty much the same.

Mike

[Alan Bienlein]

I am doing a little veneer work, this is the first time for me doing it. I am using that paper thin veneer and putting it on some flat 5" x 12" boards.

So not knowing what I am doing I got some Titebond Cold Press for Veneer Glue. The stuff is really funny, I will clamp things up for 4 hours and check it and it will still be about the same as it came out of the bottle on the edges that I can get to, no scale on it or anything.

I un-clamp things and it is fine, the veneer is glued to the board just fine and I can sand it and cut the boards.

I just don't understand the glue, does it have to have the pressure to set? It states that the pressure should be 100 to 250 psi depending on the substrate so I have no idea what it should be for say Hard Maple.

I put the glue on the veneer real heavy they state 6 mils or 250 square feet per gallon, so I have no idea how much to use. 6 mils is not very thick but I don't have anyway to measure it.

I have a 3/4" MDF board with a plastic sheet on it then the veneer with the glue, the board, the next glued veneer , a plastic sheet and then another 3/4" MDF. All of this is clamped with 4, Cabinet Master clamps and 4 cauls as tight as I can get them.

So do I really need the Titebond Cold Press for Veneer Glue or could I use just TBIII and get the same results.

Is there something about the veneer glue that makes it better then just using normal glues?

I use this glue all the time for veneering. When I apply it I put on a very thin coat with a 3" long foam roller. Just enough to change the color of the substrate. Then I will go back and put on a thicker coat. This second coat is still transparent enough to still see the substrate but not completely block it. Then put it in the vacum bag with a piece of plastic trash bag on top then a piece of felt type fabric. I found that if the plastic is to big and lays on the platten then the glue on the edges will still be wet. I let mine in the press for 45 minutes.

The cold press veneer glue dries hard versus the other tight bond glues and as you noticed if it bleeds thru it doesn't affect the finish. I've even used it for bent lamination's because the spring back is virtually non existent.

[Richard Coers]

A mil = .001" most paper is around .003", so 6 mils is like two sheets of paper. Darryl Keil of Vacuum Pressing Systems is the expert I learned from. http://www.vacupress.com/veneerglue.htm
He puts out an excellent video. JoeWoodworker is also a great source of info. http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/battleofthebonds.htm
Gluing veneer to solid wood is also going to give you trouble. Depends on species, but expansion and contraction of the solid wood is going to lead to cracked veneer in the very near future. Also veneering is about balanced construction. Plywood always has odd numbers of plus, veneer work is the same. Add a sheet of veneer to one side, you need a sheet on the other side. The cold press glue does require pressure, but it is to get it in the cells of the wood.
As Mike mentioned, professional shops use a glue that becomes rigid. Darryl used to show a strip of Titebond glue in his demos. You could snap a piece off the end when it was cold. He then put it in a heating pad and waited a minute. The Titebond was as limp as a wet noodle. Imagine a walnut coffee table near a south facing window. It will get warm enough to soften the glue. Then you have a glue failure.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm no glue expert, but Better Bond Veneer glue is the best I've found. http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Better-Bond-Veneer-Glue-Color-Medium.html

No idea what class of glue it is though, do one of you guys know?

[Alan Bienlein]

A mil = .001" most paper is around .003", so 6 mils is like two sheets of paper. Darryl Keil of Vacuum Pressing Systems is the expert I learned from. http://www.vacupress.com/veneerglue.htm
He puts out an excellent video. JoeWoodworker is also a great source of info. http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/battleofthebonds.htm
Gluing veneer to solid wood is also going to give you trouble. Depends on species, but expansion and contraction of the solid wood is going to lead to cracked veneer in the very near future. Also veneering is about balanced construction. Plywood always has odd numbers of plus, veneer work is the same. Add a sheet of veneer to one side, you need a sheet on the other side. The cold press glue does require pressure, but it is to get it in the cells of the wood.
As Mike mentioned, professional shops use a glue that becomes rigid. Darryl used to show a strip of Titebond glue in his demos. You could snap a piece off the end when it was cold. He then put it in a heating pad and waited a minute. The Titebond was as limp as a wet noodle. Imagine a walnut coffee table near a south facing window. It will get warm enough to soften the glue. Then you have a glue failure.


I have to disagree as the window in this photo is facing south and takes up the whole wall. There has been no problems with the veneer and this is over 4 years old and done with the cold press glue.
277806

[John TenEyck]

Titebond II is often used for regular as well as hot iron veneering. I've never heard of anyone having problems with glue failure later because the piece sat in the sun. Also, while it's best to always use balanced construction, I've seen and done many pieces with veneer on one side only with no problems. You wouldn't do that on a large, thin piece, but it's often done on curved drawer fronts, for example. Many of those curved drawer fronts are made from solid stock, too, and the veneer has not cracked/split, whatever. A look in FWW's archives will show articles describing these techniques.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

Titebond Cold Press is very similar to Titebond original with the addition of nut shell flour to prevent bleedthrough on porous raw veneers. I don't have the specs at hand, but I believe it has similar cold creep performance and perhaps a slightly longer open time. You can get specs on all the Titebond line at the Franklin International website, and they have a technical phone line as well. Within that line, Titebond Extend has the stiffest glueline as well as extended open and closed assembly times and as such is probably their best bet for general veneering with pva glues aside from the bleedthrough issue. Titebond 2 Extend has the next stiffest glueline and similar assembly time plus water resistance, but like cold press it has fillers that settle out of suspension- I alternate storing the bottle upside down and right side up. Titebond 3 has excellent water resistance, but it has the least stiff glueline of all the Titebond line.

Darryl Keil of Vacupresss has developed a pva veneering glue touting a stiff glueline; I don't know how it compares to Titebond Extend. A rigid glueline is particularly important with highly figured veneers and burls, and is best achieved with a catalyzed glue like urea formaldehyde (Unibond is one example, and there are numerous powdered plastic resin glues). However, you have to deal with the greater cost, bother of mixing, the higher toxicity, and the minimum 70 F temp and extended cure times absent a heated press. I've successfullypressed thousands of square feet of veneer with various pva glues including Titebond Cold Press, but they are thermoplastic and you have to decide if they are appropriate in a given situation.

In terms of pressure, you can disregard the recommendation for hundreds of psi. You just need enough pressure to get the veneer and ground into "intimate contact". Vacuum presses reach only about 11 psi and are widely and successfully used. The key is to have even pressure and a firm enough caul to press the veneer flat.

If you are just getting started, Darryl Keil's videos are highly recommended. Scott Groves' book "Advanced Veneering" is not just for experts; it has the most succinct and thorough coverage of veneering basics that I have seen anywhere, as well as some very innovative and inspiring matching and seaming techniques.

In terms of coverage, you can get a mil gauge at any good paint supplier, or do the math and measure out the correct amount of glue at the recommended rate. Bear in mind that a thin foam roller will soak up about two ounces. A good wet coat that is not opaque is generally about right. A few beads of squeezeout is a good sign, a wet mess indicares too much glue.

I find an hour in the vacuum bag at 70 F is minimal but adequate with Cold Press with flat, unstressed components. The squeezeout may not be set due to lack of air, but the glueline will have absorbed into the substrate and veneer.

[Richard Coers]

I have to disagree as the window in this photo is facing south and takes up the whole wall. There has been no problems with the veneer and this is over 4 years old and done with the cold press glue.
277806
I should have said regular Titebond glues relaxed with heat, not cold pressing glue like you are referring to.

[Richard Coers]

Titebond II is often used for regular as well as hot iron veneering. I've never heard of anyone having problems with glue failure later because the piece sat in the sun. Also, while it's best to always use balanced construction, I've seen and done many pieces with veneer on one side only with no problems. You wouldn't do that on a large, thin piece, but it's often done on curved drawer fronts, for example. Many of those curved drawer fronts are made from solid stock, too, and the veneer has not cracked/split, whatever. A look in FWW's archives will show articles describing these techniques.

John
I guess there isn't much about my response that you like John. I didn't know that we had a veneer expert here that has heard about all the veneer construction failures over the years. How have you gathered data that discounts these rules of veneer construction, and the rules of quality veneer work? Are there just no failures in your area, or all over the United States? There are rules to furniture making that have taken centuries to develop. Suggesting that unbalanced veneer work is okay because some curved drawer fronts don't have trouble is irresponsible in my book. You also don't think a 5" board is going to move under the veneer? If all these rules are wrong, I suggest you write a new book about it and teach the rest of us.

[Mike Henderson]

I think the problems with veneering on to solid wood is somewhat overstated. Note that our ancestors only veneered on to solid wood because that's all they had. Furniture that was produced prior to the American revolution is still with us and still veneered. Some of it has experienced split veneer but a lot of it has not.

I've worked on antique tables that were veneered over solid wood and the only problem was wear on the veneer, not splitting because of wood movement in the substrate.

All that said, when I have to veneer over solid wood, and it's a critical application (high dollar value veneer) I usually put a layer of veneer under the show veneer, and at cross ply to the substrate.

Regarding PVA glue failure from heating from the sun, I've never even heard of that. If PVA glue failed at the temperatures that can be reached in such a situation, it seems that we'd be having side panels coming unglued on furniture that's close to a heating device, or over a heat register. I would think that the table top (or whatever is veneered) would have to get so hot you would almost burn your hand on it. When PVA is used to iron on veneer, you have to use a pretty hot iron. It seems that the finish would bubble long before the glue would fail.

Mike

[HANK METZ]

Titebond II is often used for regular as well as hot iron veneering. I've never heard of anyone having problems with glue failure later because the piece sat in the sun. Also, while it's best to always use balanced construction, I've seen and done many pieces with veneer on one side only with no problems. You wouldn't do that on a large, thin piece, but it's often done on curved drawer fronts, for example. Many of those curved drawer fronts are made from solid stock, too, and the veneer has not cracked/split, whatever. A look in FWW's archives will show articles describing these techniques.

John

I do agree with this, I have done mono- sided projects for years with no adverse effects, least of all warping or delamination, and have used the least "special" glue to do it with, just the stuff found at the home center.

[Peter Quinn]

I've never glued veneer to one side of a board and had it stay predictably flat. I've sanded the paper thin veneer off of one face of birch faced MDF and had a previously dead flat panel go bonkers, and that stuff is very thin. I've had a few old tables and looked a plenty more, they almost always veneered both faces, the back gets something generic, and often its been a cross banded double layer of veneer if over solid. So experiences vary on the subject, but mine tells me that not balancing with veneer on both faces is a craps shoot and the odds are not in my favor. Next rainy day my doors warp.

I've never used the cold press glue, I've never seen any titebond let go due to casual warming, and I've never seen type II or three let go period. You can reverse type I but you have to steam the dickens out of it, it doesn't just give up if you hold an electric blanket over it. If so every hood surround and dish washer panel or cabinet I've ever built would have created a call back. Plenty of heat and steam in your average kitchen, no failures. The second part of that recipe for making your own iron on veneer is time….as in you have a window, the first part is temperature….as in over 240 degrees for cross linking PVA's like tite bond II and III. Let it sit and fully cross link, it wont stick again. Once its cross linked…it won't come off, and either way you have to get it real hot, hotter than a sunny window in Connecticut can provide. Maybe in Las Vegas or Death Valley?

It was noted above Bill, but with a simple mil thickness gauge you can easily determine how thick your glue line is, I got one from a finishing place online IIR, never actually use it for veneer. I'm a foam roller guy, I have a very firm foam rubber roller made for wall paper work that spreads the glue but doesn't absorb it. Problem is if you paint it on too thick, the roller won't take up the excess, so better to err on the side of caution if going that route. The yellow foam rollers from West systems are good too, they don't eat up too much glue leave a very even glue thickness.

[Kevin Jenness]

I would like to point out that the flexible glueline and thermal/moisture sensitivity of pva glues can be an issue in certain situations, thus the insistence of some veneer specialists that u/f and similar glues are essential to their work. I have seen Titebond Cold Press bonding raw veneer to mdf fail in a dishwasher panel front where the required venting clearance was not provided. I now use Medex or Extira and Titebond 2 Extend or more water resistant glues in such situations. Anyone who has done bent laminations comparing pvas to u/f glues or epoxy will be familiar with "cold creep", and if you look at the available Titebond specs you will see that various formulations have much different bond strengths at elevated temperatures. I have felt raised joints in solid boards edge glued with Titebond after moisture cycling, and I have seen minor creep at the edges of veneered panels as well. I would suspect that the potential for movement in a pva glueline would be exaggerated by an excessive spread of glue. Stress on the glueline will be minimized by acclimation of the materials to their anticipated conditions of use. This is not not say that pvas should not be used for veneering, but we should be aware of their limitations.

As far as unbalanced veneering goes, it often does succeed in practice where the substrate is thick and strong enough, or sufficiently secured within a framework, to overcome the imbalance, but is not a good idea for large, relatively thin or unsupported panels

[Alan Lightstone]

I just don't understand the glue, does it have to have the pressure to set? It states that the pressure should be 100 to 250 psi depending on the substrate so I have no idea what it should be for say Hard Maple.



Bill, I can't imagine that 100-250psi is correct. That's a MASSIVE amount of pressure. Imagine a 24" x 24" panel. 250psi would amount to 72 tons of pressure. Good luck generating that.

I veneer a lot. And my vacuum press is usually set to about 22psi, and I get great results. For years I used Better Bond Cold Press Advhesive - which I like, then tried Better Bond Ulta-Cat PPR Veneer Glue (which is a totally messy pain to mix and I really dislike). Most recently I switched to Unibond 800 which is great. I'll be sticking with that for a long time. Easy to mix, apply, hard, and no creep. Great stuff.

I find it by far the easiest to apply with a glue roller. Getting a thickness where you can see through the glue is sufficient. More and you're likely to have bleed through. Pretty easy to do with a glue roller. Just don't forget to wash off the roller when done (I can't tell you how many times I've forgotten.)

[Chris Merriam]

My local Sherwin-Williams has wet mil gauges. I was all prepared to pay big bucks for a fancy gauge, but they're just credit-card sized squares of metal with notches on the ends. They gave me one for free.

[Frank Drew]

Bill, I can't imagine that 100-250psi is correct. That's a MASSIVE amount of pressure. Imagine a 24" x 24" panel. 250psi would amount to 72 tons of pressure. Good luck generating that.

I veneer a lot. And my vacuum press is usually set to about 22psi, and I get great results. )

Alan, I agree that the quoted psi is totally overkill for veneering (even if you could generate that pressure consistently across a panel.)

But did you mean your vacuum press is set to 22 inches of mercury, rather than psi? A perfect vacuum, at around 30 inches of mercury, generates just under 15 psi, I think.

[Alan Lightstone]

Yes, I always screw that up. I meant inches of mercury. My pump is rated for 29 inches of mercury, but I never run it that high.

[Phil Thien]

I thought that when you'd typically see veneered drawer fronts, that the veneer and the substrate were typically the same species. Like, curly maple veneer over a non-curly substrate. They didn't typically mix species and get away with veneer on one side, did they?

[This is an observation from my experience growing up in a house where I don't think anything was less than 150 years old.]

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Alan, I agree that the quoted psi is totally overkill for veneering (even if you could generate that pressure consistently across a panel.)

But did you mean your vacuum press is set to 22 inches of mercury, rather than psi? A perfect vacuum, at around 30 inches of mercury, generates just under 15 psi, I think.


Frank, wouldn't the psi generated be based on your elevation?

[Roger Pozzi]

I'm surely no expert but, I've been using Titebond Hide glue with no problems.
I just spread a generous covering on the substrate, lay the veneer, cover with wax paper, top off with 3/4" MDF and clamp. Also, since I'm never in much of hurry, I let it sit overnight and it's good to go.
Also, I don't mess with cauls since I've not used veneer that was so wide that I couldn't get it clamped without them. This may not be the preferred way, or even a correct way to apply veneer, but, it works for me.

[HANK METZ]

I'm surely no expert but, I've been using Titebond Hide glue with no problems.
I just spread a generous covering on the substrate, lay the veneer, cover with wax paper, top off with 3/4" MDF and clamp. Also, since I'm never in much of hurry, I let it sit overnight and it's good to go.
Also, I don't mess with cauls since I've not used veneer that was so wide that I couldn't get it clamped without them. This may not be the preferred way, or even a correct way to apply veneer, but, it works for me.

This, and other stated experiences about sums it up for me; the art of veneering is not a perfected science.

[Bill Huber]

I would like to thank everyone that replied to this thread, I have learned so much from it.

I did another glue up last night and it came out great, I put the glue on the substrate and not the veneer and used less glue. I did not have a roller but I used a foam brush and that worked out much better then the way I was doing it with a hard roller on the glue bottle.

This is what I have been making, not much to compare to what most do around here but it did get me started with veneer and now I am thinking about other things to make using it. The cost of wood is getting so high that I can see the use of veneer to off set the cost of some projects.

Again thank you all for the help and information.

277854

[Frank Drew]

Frank, wouldn't the psi generated be based on your elevation?

Steve, yes, I should have written "15 psi, at sea level"; however, that would be the theoretical maximum atmospheric pressure since the psi decreases as elevation increases because the column of air over that square inch is reduced.

[Frank Drew]

I thought that when you'd typically see veneered drawer fronts, that the veneer and the substrate were typically the same species. Like, curly maple veneer over a non-curly substrate. They didn't typically mix species and get away with veneer on one side, did they?

Phil, on a lot of antique furniture oak or even pine were often used as drawer front substrates, veneered with more expensive and usually more showy veneers from such woods as mahogany, satinwood, walnut, elm burl, etc. From the pieces I've seen, it wasn't uncommon to veneer only the face of the drawer front; maybe they hammer veneered the face once the drawer was assembled and presumably somewhat stable.

[Mike Henderson]

Steve, yes, I should have written "15 psi, at sea level"; however, that would be the theoretical maximum atmospheric pressure since the psi decreases as elevation increases because the column of air over that square inch is reduced.
At 10,000 feet altitude, the atmospheric pressure is about 10 pounds per sq inch. The pressure change from sea level (about 15 lbs/sq in) to 10,000 feet is not linear but for our purposes you could assume it's linear to estimate the pressure at any altitude between those limits. It'd be close enough for woodworking.

Mike

[John TenEyck]

[QUOTE=Richard Coers;2197274]I guess there isn't much about my response that you like John. I didn't know that we had a veneer expert here that has heard about all the veneer construction failures over the years. How have you gathered data that discounts these rules of veneer construction, and the rules of quality veneer work? Are there just no failures in your area, or all over the United States? There are rules to furniture making that have taken centuries to develop. Suggesting that unbalanced veneer work is okay because some curved drawer fronts don't have trouble is irresponsible in my book. You also don't think a 5" board is going to move under the veneer? If all these rules are wrong, I suggest you write a new book about it and teach the rest of us.[/QUOTE

Your advise may have been well intentioned, but it's just not universally true. Titebond glue is an acceptable glue for veneering in many applications. Those who practice iron on veneering often use it. It's not my say so, there are many articles in FWW and books that describe its use. Have you ever seen a failure where it was used? I haven't. Same thing on the unbalanced construction on curved drawer fronts. It's been done that way for centuries. I think I remember an article in FWW by Mario Rodriguez describing it, too. Good enough for me. And veneer has been used over solid wood for centuries, too. That's all they had. It works. Yes, plywood is a better substrate, but that doesn't mean it can't be done successfully over solid wood, which is what you said.

John

[Steve Rozmiarek]

At 10,000 feet altitude, the atmospheric pressure is about 10 pounds per sq inch. The pressure change from sea level (about 15 lbs/sq in) to 10,000 feet is not linear but for our purposes you could assume it's linear to estimate the pressure at any altitude between those limits. It'd be close enough for woodworking.

Mike

By my calculations, which may be trustworthy, at sea level thats like parking one of the tires on a heavy car on a vacuum pressed area the size of your hand. At my elevation, a bit lighter car. Over simplification, but an interesting visualization of the power of a vacuum press.

[Mel Fulks]

I think Frank's comment about veneering drawer fronts after assembly makes a lot of sense. Important to remember that not every thing was was "the best",things were made in different grades. Bowed or serpentine fronts made of segmented NE white pine didn't need veneer on back, and veneering the back on flat fronts would be (doing the math to be sure) TWICE as expensive . I've seen a few things ,usually bed rails, veneered on face and painted on the back,so I think movement was not completely discounted.

[Jeff Duncan]

Some good conversation going here. I'll offer a couple thoughts, yes wood veneer has been used over solid wood for as long as veneer has been in use. Yes balanced construction in general is advisable. However there's a huge difference between veneering 1 side of a 3/4" 4' x 8' panel and veneering 1 side of a 1" solid wood drawer front. The balance part is a key thing here, for instance if you veneer both sides of a large panel with identical veneers but then sand one side twice as much as the other, you'll be back to an unbalanced panel. Now if your unbalanced like in the case of the drawer fronts you don't suffer failure as the wood is "strong" enough to overcome any "pull" by the veneer. All this to say that you need to understand how veneer will work in your particular situation as it's really an extensive subject all to itself.

As for glues, the advantage to TB Cold Press is when your using raw veneers vs paper backed. With paper backed you can use almost anything as the paper prevents bleed through. With raw veneer the glue can bleed through and glues like TBII can bleed through and affect your finish….especially with stain:( I like TB CP as it's easy to use and gets the job done quickly and safely. I roll it on with a 3" roller and glue covers and leave it a bit thick. I'll leave it in the press for at least 2 hours to be safe.

good luck,
JeffD

[Frank Drew]

I'm a big believer in balanced construction as a general rule (and that includes applying similar amounts of finish to both sides of a panel), but as noted by others there are exceptions; for brick-layed round end table rims I'd double veneer the outer face (double, as Mike notes, to prevent the brick-laying from telegraphing through) but would never even consider veneering the inside face unless a client for some reason insisted on it.

[Michael Mahan]

I'm a complete n00b about veneers but want to jump in with both feet ,
that said , when resawing your own veneers what is the best substrates to do the gluing to ? say a small table (end type ) or a small chest ?

and if anyone could PM me reading material links for my own research , I'm trying to step up my game if you get my drift ~

[Mike Henderson]

I'm a complete n00b about veneers but want to jump in with both feet ,
that said , when resawing your own veneers what is the best substrates to do the gluing to ? say a small table (end type ) or a small chest ?

and if anyone could PM me reading material links for my own research , I'm trying to step up my game if you get my drift ~

Woodworker's Guide to Veneering and Inlay (http://www.amazon.com/Woodworkers-Guide-Veneering-Inlay-Techniques/dp/1565233468/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1387834917&sr=8-1&keywords=woodworker%27s+guide+to+veneering+and+inl ay). But you'll gain a big advantage if you can get some instruction from someone who's experienced in veneer work.

For learning, use commercial veneers. After you have some experience, you can try resawn veneer.

The best substrate is either MDF or a GOOD QUALITY baltic birch plywood.

Mike

[John TenEyck]

Mike, commercial veneer is easy to cut with a veneer saw of even an Exacto knife, but I actually prefer to use shop sawn veneer for "straight" matched seams. I saw the veneer to about 0.090", then sand to about 0.065". At that thickness they handle like a board, and you can joint the edges on your jointer or with a hand plane. It's just easier for me with my limited veneering experience. And after it's glued down to your substrate you can sand it if desired without great fear of sanding through it.

John

[Michael Mahan]

Mike, commercial veneer is easy to cut with a veneer saw of even an Exacto knife, but I actually prefer to use shop sawn veneer for "straight" matched seams. I saw the veneer to about 0.090", then sand to about 0.065". At that thickness they handle like a board, and you can joint the edges on your jointer or with a hand plane. It's just easier for me with my limited veneering experience. And after it's glued down to your substrate you can sand it if desired without great fear of sanding through it.

John ThanX John : that's what I'm shooting at the with thicker veneers & doing it all myself
that thin stuff is not the kinda work I want to do , I've worked with it some what .
that's why I bought a big band saw

Mike : ThanX for the link on the Book I'm getting that one & the another one I found this : http://www.amazon.com/dp/0764338463/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2N9S098UA2A1B&coliid=I23ETOVVG4FFZ8

Not meaning to Hi-Jack this thread , I'll start a thread if I have more questions or PM me
But Plz I don't want to let this get off topic
I find the subject fascinating !

[Mike Henderson]

ThanX John : that's what I'm shooting at the with thicker veneers & doing it all myself
that thin stuff is not the kinda work I want to do , I've worked with it some what .
that's why I bought a big band saw

Mike : ThanX for the link on the Book I'm getting that one & the another one I found this : http://www.amazon.com/dp/0764338463/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=2N9S098UA2A1B&coliid=I23ETOVVG4FFZ8

Not meaning to Hi-Jack this thread , I'll start a thread if I have more questions or PM me
But Plz I don't want to let this get off topic
I find the subject fascinating !
I have that book on advanced veneering - I was generally disappointed with it. To save some money, buy the one I recommended first and if you still want more you can always order the second later.

Mike

[Michael Mahan]

I have that book on advanced veneering - I was generally disappointed with it. To save some money, buy the one I recommended first and if you still want more you can always order the second later.

Mike
OK I'll take your word on that & just get the 1st , read that & look else where .
that's a issue with most WW books unless you get some feedback it's easy to get a lemon

[Dan Rude]

Bill, great project and I like you have learned a lot from your question on this thread. I am definitely book mark this one. Dan

[Curt Harms]

At 10,000 feet altitude, the atmospheric pressure is about 10 pounds per sq inch. The pressure change from sea level (about 15 lbs/sq in) to 10,000 feet is not linear but for our purposes you could assume it's linear to estimate the pressure at any altitude between those limits. It'd be close enough for woodworking.

Mike

I certainly had a misconception about air pressure and altitude. I figured the edge of space is considered to be around 60 miles so the halfway point for atmospheric pressure would be around 30 miles. Not even close, the halfway point is about 18,000 ft. I was told by an atomospheric researcher that pressure variation with altitude is logarithmic,, not linear. Here's a table which seems to confirm that.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/air-altitude-pressure-d_462.html