New Bandsaw vibrating....

[Allen Grenz]

To keep this short. I have a new Grizzly G0514X2 19" saw...

First, what should be acceptable vibration for this machine? I guess I was expecting something close to my cabinet saw..

Vibration at the table measures .020" running a new 3/4" Timberwolf blade and about .010" running a new 3/8" TW blade..

Without a blade, just spinning the lower wheel the table will move around .005-.006".

Running just the motor and drive pulley with both wheels removed I get .002" movement or a little less...

Everything on the saw has runout.. so I can't tell what's what.. even the small drive pulley has slight run out... I did the spin and mark the bottom regime to the bottom wheel to try to determine balance.. but this is such a crude method who knows what the results mean..

After it first shaking like a wet dog duck hunting in January I took it off the flimsy HTC base and fabricated a much sturdier one with heavy duty casters and heavy duty rubber footed 1/2" shank levelers. Plus the saw is now bolted solid to the new base...


Any Ideas. I've spent 2 full days messing with this thing... Admittedly this is my first largish bandsaw.. So I would love some help fixing this darned thing.....

Thanks for any help or suggestion,...,

Al

[Phil Thien]

Do you have the original blade that came w/ the saw? It would be nice to eliminate the TW blades as contributors.

[Kirk Poore]

Wheels might be unbalanced, particularly the top one.

Kirk

[Charles Coolidge]

My G0514X2B will start and run with a nickel balanced on the table, I was impressed with how balanced it was. I have mine bolted to a 1.75" thick 24" x 36" maple base with 4 of the Grizzly 3" machine pads, its solid. I had it originally on the extra heavy duty Shop Fox mobile base and it was unstable, a finger could get it rocking back and forth with modest effort.

277784

[Bill Huber]

Does the drive belt have a set in it, that will cause some vibration. When I got my little 14" Jet it had vibration in it like mad. I pulled the belt off and saw it had a set in it, it was summer and I set it out on the patio in the sun for an hour or so and then put it back on and the vibration was gone.

With the blade off, spin the top wheel and let it stop, when it stops mark the lowest point on the wheel and then spin it again and see if it stops at the same place. If the wheel is balanced it will stop at different places, do this 3 or 4 times.

Do the same with the bottom wheel with the drive belt off and see how it stops.

With something to hole spin the wheels and see if they are out of round or the tires are not right.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I would also contact Grizzly support on Monday.

Eliminating the set in the belt would be the first thing to do.

Reinstalling an original blade to eliminate the TW blades another THOUGH I doubt 2 TW blades would have problems but it is something that is quickly and easily eliminated.

Question? Is the base in contact with the floor in all 4 corners of the base? In other words, can you rock the bandsaw without it running?

[Allen Grenz]

Phil, I ran it with the original and its the same thing... shake rattle and roll... well not roll, but the other two..lol

Charles, I think my current base is pretty solid now compared to the HTC base.. I have the heavy duty Shopfox base on my cabinet saw and I would say the one I built is leaps and bounds better than that.. I like the way you mounted your saw. If I didn't need the ability to move it once and awhile I'd copy it.. But I don't think that's my current issue...

Bill, I changed out the belt this morning as I was thinking the same thing... I also did spin and mark the wheels.. at least 20 times for both wheels.. The top appears to be balanced... The bottom indicated about 20% more marks in one area.. Free spinning the wheels on the saw with a dial indicator I have a little run out on both wheels as well as the drive pulley on the motor shaft.. Not a lot though..

After dinner I went out to the shop with some fridge magnets.. After placing them in different areas around the lower wheel. I got it to where it would pass the nickel test (barey) about .003" as measured at the same place on the table... without the magnets it measures.. .012".. The added weight did correspond somewhat to the what the marks indicated... At least I can cut now... But I wonder if this is just masking another problem of concentricity or if the lower wheel is truly this unbalanced.

[Allen Grenz]

Ken, I missed you.. We must have been typing at the same time..

As I responded to Bill, I did change out the belt with a new NAPA industrial belt.. No difference.. Nobody in town had link belt or that's what I'd have put on there..

The Grizzy blade is the same deal.. But as indicated I have significant vibration without a blade so that pretty much eliminates the blade and upper wheel although running with a blade does amplify the problem..

The base I built is made out of 1 1/4" steel tubing bolted to the saw with casters on outriggers to the sides of the saw.. also I have big lever pads wich I lower to lift the caster off the ground.. The saw is dead level and pretty solid... The only movement allowed appears to be frame flex when I push on th top of the saw.. it certainly is not wobbling..

Keep it coming guys, I appreciate the brainstorming.... I will call Grizz Monday and I'm sure they'll take care of me.. I would just like to nail it down before I have to spend hours on the phone.. I kinda wish I would have gotten one of the heavier saws they sell.. I can kinda see now why some of them are 2-240lbs heavier..

[David Kumm]

It doesn't take much if the upper wheel is out of balance. I threw a weight of my old Oliver 217 and it vibrated on start up even though it weighs over 1600 lbs and the wheel is aluminum. Dave

[Tai Fu]

Or maybe the saw needs to run in a bit... I had the same problem with my bandsaw but eventually the vibration died down. It could also be a tracking issue too, see if there's any irregularity in the tire crown.

[Richard Coers]

It doesn't take much if the upper wheel is out of balance. I threw a weight of my old Oliver 217 and it vibrated on start up even though it weighs over 1600 lbs and the wheel is aluminum. Dave

Point is, it's a new saw. If it doesn't take much, maybe the factory could have done it?

[David Kumm]

I doubt that every saw is tested under tension, with both wheels running. Dave

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Does it vibrate with the blade off, just the motor running the lower wheel?

[Mike Heidrick]

How are you measuring the vibration? What is the reference point?

[Charles Coolidge]

I wonder if Tai is on to something i.e. breaking in the saw. I'm half tempted to let my saw run for an hour or two tomorrow. Update to my above post. My saw its basically brand new, total cut time on the saw is probably less than 2 minutes. I fired it up today to cut a block of wood after it sat for 2-3 weeks, like an idiot I had forgotten to release the blade tension so its been under tension all this time. Well it vibrated more than it had before, prior it was very smooth. So maybe it settled on the leveling pads and needs adjustment or more likely the tire go pinched sitting under tension or whatever. I'll let it run for an hour or so tomorrow and see if it returns to smooth.

That front pin is a wedge, bang it in too far or not far enough and the table will be out of whack because well you are driving a wedge into it something is going to give. You want to put a straight edge on the table and tap it in just far enough but not too far. I have a 24" Starrett rule I can watch the table flatten itself out nicely as I tap in the pin, most of the table is .000 to .001 flat, there's a couple of spots where I can measure .002 to .003 that's pretty flat overall.

[Jim Finn]

I had a similar issue with my GO555. It started shaking after five years. I watched it while running and found the lower wheel tire was bulging up a bit where it met the blade. I took the lower tire off and put on two layers of masking tape all around the wheel and reinstalled the tire. Smoothed it out a lot. I think the tire is stretched a bit so this tightened it up. I went to the Grizzly site looking for a replacement tire but all they offer is a neoprene tire and I want a rubber one as on the original, so I tried the masking tape trick.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Charles, sorry to hear about your problems with your new saw.

I have never released the tension on a bandsaw except to change blades, nor have I have ever seen tension released in industry...........Hope it works out well for you...........Rod.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Charles, what Rod said, +1.

Several years back I was thinking about tension on my 14" Delta, and all the money spent on gimmicks to release it. To have some fun, I decided to quit detensioning it. It is not a premium saw, it sits for 6 months sometimes, I can go start it any time and it runs smooth. BTW, I have found no issues with leaving the tension on, and it's going on 4 years now.

If your tire is clumped up, its a manufacturing defect, not an inherent bandsaw issue.

[Allen Grenz]

How are you measuring the vibration? What is the reference point?


I had dial indicators mounted to my workbench and one to my jointer touching the table on the motor and wheel sides of the saw..


Does it vibrate with the blade off, just the motor running the lower wheel?

Yes, I have indicated this.

After fiddling with fridge magnets on the lower wheel its running quite smooth and late last night I sawed some cedar logs with very nice results. I moved a large magnet around the lower wheel and kept testing it. Finally I hit a spot that cut the vibration measurement in half.. I then put another very small magnet on the wheel opposite of the large one and it really smoothed out..

I guess I'm worried though that this may be masking a concentricity flaw, instead of an improperly balanced lower wheel.. Any thoughts on that?

[Charles Coolidge]

Okay have my saw doing a break in run, let it warm up a bit then deployed a dial indicator and this is what I see. Vertically vibration is .0005 to -.0005 horizontally vibration is .002 to -.002 I measured a corner out on the front of the saw where it would see the most movement. I don't see breaking it in will improve the vertical its already really stable but we'll see if the horizontal improves.

Regarding releasing the blade tension, good to know thanks guys.

[Allen Grenz]

So you have .004" of movement side to side.. That actually isn't terrible but annoyingly noticeable.. I would be curious to what it does without the blade just running your lower wheel. I was getting more than that running without a blade on the saw.. I do agree these saws are quite sensitive to having a solid foundation..

[Richard Coers]

I had dial indicators mounted to my workbench and one to my jointer touching the table on the motor and wheel sides of the saw..


I guess I'm worried though that this may be masking a concentricity flaw, instead of an improperly balanced lower wheel.. Any thoughts on that?

Inspect the wheel carefully. On that machine they sent to me, the bottom wheel was not fully machined around the faces of the wheel. The diameter was fully machined, the faces were not. About 1/2 the wheel face was raw casting, the other half machined. There were huge differences in the thicknesses of the "spokes" around the bear head profiles. They tried to balance the wheel, by drilling a lot of holes on the back side of the wheel on one side, then riveting weights on the opposite side. Don't hesitate, call them tomorrow and ask for a new bottom wheel. They sent me a wheel that didn't even look the same. But like I said in the previous post, also have them send you new bearings and a new tire. There are different pulleys on different 19" machines. So check that before you try to reinstall the new wheel. I set a Dewalt flashlight on the table of my machine and ran the machine. It was like those vibrating football games we got as kids. I sent that video to Grizzly and the parts starting coming my way. When I got the bottom wheel right, I still had vibration with the top wheel.

[Phil Thien]

You can test your wheels by pointing your dial indicator so it touches the rim or tire and spinning the wheel by hand. Watch the needle on the DI and it will tell you if your wheel is round.

The tire would be a better test but be careful the tire may catch the DI tip.

[Charles Coolidge]

Hey Alen, yeah I'm going to test it again after more break in and removing the blade. Its vibrating more than before when I did the nickel test but then I also moved the saw to a different location since that test. I try not to sweat this stuff too much, if I need to do some fine tune balancing or replace the China belt or whatever that's fine. If a guy is going to buy China an not expect to have to fix and tune a few things he's going to be disappointed.

By the way I put my foot 'lightly' on the base when running...it moved the dial indicator several thousandths, that kind of surprised me give how I have it bolted down so my guess is I have a leveling pad that needs adjusting.

[Gus Dundon]

Turn it on and let it run for an hour.

[Myk Rian]

[QUOTE=Rod Sheridan;2197164I have never released the tension on a band saw except to change blades, nor have I have ever seen tension released in industry.....[/QUOTE]
Same here. A gimmick to sell de-tensioners.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I detention mine but only because I don't want the rubber tire to remain compressed for long periods of time. I don't have a detensioner but rather spin the tension wheel two turns when finished using it.

[Allen Grenz]

Well I just got off the phone with Grizzly.. They're shipping out a lower wheel assembly to me.. Thanks Richard for the tips, I was sure to double check that tire and bearings were coming mounted on the wheel and they assured me it would be the full assembly.

Charles, be sure to update us with what you find out.. I'm a big believer in link belts, after the holiday rush I'm going to order one.. Though, I found no difference between the Taiwan belt and the Napa belt..

With my magical magnets in place I spent a few hours yesterday cutting some veneer and different things... Sure fun to have a new toy in the shop.. Blade tracking and tension really seem to be hassle free as does bearing guide setup..

Al,

[Charles Coolidge]

Let us know how it goes Allen and I'll do the same.

[Brett Robson]

Last year, I spent a few weeks chasing down the vibration in my new band saw. I went through everything from belt to balancing the wheels. Turned out the biggest factor was the factory tires were not of uniform thickness causing the blade to go loose/tight, loose/tight every revolution and creating a ton of vibration in the process. A couple of new Carter tires later and the majority of the vibration is now gone.

[Charles Coolidge]

Thanks Brett that gives us something else to check.

[Tai Fu]

At least it didn't go to robot hell...

[Allen Grenz]

An update to the thread.

Grizzly sent me out a new lower wheel, bearings, and a couple sets of new tires which was nice. After I replaced the wheel the vibration was significantly better than with the old wheel. Just slightly better than the original wheel with my magnet weights. It appeared as though they balanced the new wheel before sending it out to me as it had two weights added to the back side along with the drilled reliefs.

Furthermore, I then installed a link belt and this further eliminated any remaining vibration.. The saw runs smooth as silk now.. It passes the nickel test with ease start, running, and stop now. Actually I can resaw 10" tall pieces of cedar with the nickel standing..

Every thing else on the saw works pretty well so far.. I've used several blades on it now and they track really well and are east to set up with no noticeable drift. I'm not crazy about adjusting the lower guide bearings but they do what they are suppose too..

Just thought I would update those interested..

Al

[Charles Coolidge]

Nice, I'll be trying a link belt then. Its great to hear you got it dialed in congrats!

[glenn bradley]

As long as you are replacing the lower wheel, slip a link belt on and see how you like it. I was adjusting my G0513X for co-planer and slipped some on for a test. Quite a bit quieter although the saw was already smooth. My saw also ran quite a bit better without the mobile base. A style that fully engages the floor when not in use is my preferred type.

All these suggestions aside, the machine should be quite smooth or it will reflect in your cut quality. I am a bit of a Grizzly fan because of the money they save me to spend on other things. I do however, press them to deliver a usable tool. If the vibration effects the cut, the saw is defective.

Saving money is only a good thing if you have a usable tool. We are all responsible for holding the sellers responsible for delivering a good product for a given price point. To save $1000, I'll change a lower wheel but, I probably won't change it twice :).

[Bob Ball]

I had similar issues with the 514X2 that I received in December 2013. Because the top of the crate was broken when I received it, it was, and remains, difficult to be sure if the shaking was related to possible damage from the machine falling over in a truck or the wheels, which had significant runout. The original machine shook so badly I never felt safe trying to run wood through it.

Using a straightedge on the original and then the replacment machine Grizzly sent, I now feel strongly that the problem all along was the wheels on the original machine, though I am grateful Grizzly was willing to send me a new machine. The wheels on the original machine both had plates rivetted into them, and appeared to have significant runout (the lower one was worse), though I had no way to accurately quantify it. The wheels on the replacement machine had no patch plates rivetted in them. Wheels on both machines appeared fine on the repeated hand-spin-balance test, though as you noted I am not sure just how indicative that test is.

In my one-of experience, the runout in the wheels appeared to be the culprit. Fuller details on this one example at http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?212070-New-Grizzly-514X2-Band-Saw

Note that some vauluable, and I thought relatively mild, information Richard C. sent me about his similar experience was censored from the thread.

Good luck. If you are persistent I am sure Grizzly will make it right.