Planemakers floats question -

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Some extra money might be coming in, so I was thinking about picking up some plane-makers floats, as I'm always thinking I'm going to get into gear and make a wooden plane. Not that I couldn't make do without them, but they seem like they'll make some things easier, and it removes one more excuse for me not to get my butt in gear.

Eventually I'd like to make both some bench and molding planes. I'm going to go back and re-read some threads where David and other made recommendations, and re-watch the Larry Williams video before I purchase anything, but looking at my options, I'm curious about the "small cheek float" Lie Nielsen sells:

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/planemakers-floats/small-cheek-floats/

Where in construction would that be more useable than the standard side float?

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/planemakers-floats/side-floats/

There seems to be some overlap in where they would each be used, just wondering others opinions.

[David Weaver]

When you're working specifically on widening the cheeks, it's a useful tool to have. It's nice if you only have two for the sides of the tools to have a pull side float and a push cheek float. You can do the far reaches with the pull side float and push the cheek float to avoid blowing anything out of the top of the mortise. If course, you could get the job done with the opposite if you had to, that's just the ones of the batch I end up using (and for some reason, I have them all except the narrow edge float (had made one already) and the heavy bed float (no use for one that doesn't flex) - I think I was hard up for christmas gift ideas the year they came out).

[Richard Verwoest]

I think the small cheek floats are good for "floating" isolated areas. If you plan to make your own floats, these are 2 of the easier ones, as there is not as much metal to remove. Such as the case with the bed float.

[george wilson]

I have to wonder how prone to setting up chattering the larger float,with straight across cut teeth would be. I have not made floats with straight across cut teeth myself. Just wondering without having personal experience with such a float. I guess it is returnable if it chatters?

[Ryan Baker]

Cheek floats are useful in areas that you need to clean up that you can't reach with a full side float, e.g. when you can't run the small end of the float out through the mouth (or don't want to). It's not necessary, but it is handy.

As Richard said, the cheek floats are the easiest to make yourself, since there is so much less tooth area to cut. Put your purchases [first at least] toward the bed floats and side floats, which are a bear to hand cut. Edge floats are easy to make too in comparison.

I also like pull for a side float and push for most everything else, though there are times when you might prefer either.

I haven't had any chattering issues with my floats, but they are hand made and definitely irregular (slightly) in spacing, so maybe that helps like a hand-stitched rasp.

BTW, The Iwasaki milled-tooth files make pretty good bed floats too. (A side float will also do that job.)

[lowell holmes]

I have the LN Bed Float and the LN Mortise Float.
The Bed Float is 1" X 1/8" X 7 1/4" and is a push float. I was using it today to shape the legs on a chair I'm making. The wood is figured maple. The float does not shatter at all. I was even using it on end grain and didn't feel any chatter, almost getting a planed like surface.

The mortise float is 1/2" X 1/4" X 7 1/4" and is a push float. It is not as smooth as the Bed Float, but is agrressive in the cut.

My other shaping tool is an Ariuou #10 rasp and it didn't get used today.

[george wilson]

That sounds good.

[David Weaver]

I have to wonder how prone to setting up chattering the larger float,with straight across cut teeth would be. I have not made floats with straight across cut teeth myself. Just wondering without having personal experience with such a float. I guess it is returnable if it chatters?

The bed float is more useful on furniture mortises and trimming joints to fit than it is on a plane bed. In my opinion, a good chisel and a good other chisel that's been blunted to use as a scraper are more useful. Mostly, the first tooth or first couple want to do the work on the bed float and the rest of the teeth just sit there. I rehardened a socket chisel that I ground to 90 degrees and didn't temper it, and then glued in a long handle that I can basically hold under my chin with my fist and lean into) and it's a lot more productive on bench planes than a bed float.

Bill carter suggested doing such with a chisel, and for reasons I can't remember, I put a fairly long handle on it (i can't remember if bill suggested that).

[Mike Holbrook]

I used the Iwasaki file/float/rasps to make four planes from parts I got got from Steve Knight. All the wood I used was purple heart, even the totes. The Iwasakis worked great and I use them for all sorts of other touch up work too. They are available from Highland Woodworking or Lee Valley. Highland had them on sale fro quite a while, which is why I ended up with about 8 of them. Since I bought mine they have even come out with more interesting shapes, curves, even circular ones. They are easily the best machine made rasp/floats. I have used mine for years and they still work like new, hardened Japanese steel teeth, kinda like Japanese saw teeth.

Benchcrafted makes a tool called a Skraper, "full carbide scraper", which is a single edged tool kinda like a chisel but with a "blunt" front end, sort of like David mentions above but with a shorter handle. Not out of reach at $34.

[george wilson]

Those Japanese curved tooth files are sharp as blazes,and work very well!! I was very generously gifted a pair by a member here,and they are great,probably better than straight tooth floats(Which I DID used to make.People kept begging them off of my bench for $$$).

[lowell holmes]

In my earlier post I mis-spoke. The bed float is 3/16" thick.

I followed the instructions and sharpened the float immediately after receiving it. I've had that float a while.

[Tony Shea]

If your interest for these floats is specifically plane making, which you've made fairly clear, then I would highly recommend the Plane Maker's Side Float as your first. This float is fairly critical in plane making, especially when dealing with such a tight mortise in the smaller molding planes. I see no other efficient way to open up a mortise on these planes. This float is also helpful in establishing the proper angle for the wedge portion of the mortise. I also recommend you get this float as a push float to prevent from blowing out the top of the mortise, as David said already. You just need to be careful when getting down on the mouth of the plane so you don't blow out that end with tip of this float.

I really struggled with this decision when I first decided to make some molding planes but after watching Larry's incredibly detailed DVD and getting some great advice from David W. I settled on this side float and got an 1/8" edge float as well. I probably should've just made my own edge float but wanted to be set up right then (I have the ability to just drive over to LN). One of these days I plan to make myself a thicker edge float and a small cheek float.

[Tony Shea]

Oh and I also agree with David that a blunted chisel is better suited at flattening the bed than a dedicated Bed Float. I started out with file that I ground at around 80 deg with a slight burr left behind, which worked fairly well until I eventually sacrificed a chisel to the purpose.

[Steve Voigt]

This is slightly OT, but…I know a number of people here have had success making their own floats. Has anyone ever tried "pre-hardened flat ground" stock? You can get this from Enco and other places; it's 4142 steel. I looked up the specs and it's 27-32 rc, which is softer than the LN floats, but about twice as hard as mild steel. It's about $35 for a 3-foot piece of 1/8 x 1, which would make a lot of floats. Any tjhoughts would be appreciated.

[Adam Maxwell]

This is slightly OT, but…I know a number of people here have had success making their own floats. Has anyone ever tried "pre-hardened flat ground" stock? You can get this from Enco and other places; it's 4142 steel. I looked up the specs and it's 27-32 rc, which is softer than the LN floats, but about twice as hard as mild steel. It's about $35 for a 3-foot piece of 1/8 x 1, which would make a lot of floats. Any tjhoughts would be appreciated.

Interesting. I haven't tried that, but I made my floats from mild steel. Total cost for material was probably $10, plus a hacksaw, 3-square bastard file, and a taper file. Hardened tool steel would be better, but these worked fine for the 4 hollow and round pairs I made, plus occasional joinery usage. YMMV.

[Leigh Betsch]

I made a set out of annealed O1, and left them soft so I could sharpen them with a file. They hold an edge fine, I suspect 4142 would be about the same. I cut the teeth on a metal shaper, which worked great but if I were to do it again I think I'd vary the pitch a bit. I think it would eliminate the slight chatter that I get. I'd guess if you are going to create the teeth by hand filing there will be enough pitch variability to take care of this issue.

[Steve Voigt]

Adam, I think it was your floats, and Leigh's, that I had in mind when I posted. I think I'll give it a whirl. Now, if I can just dream up some Rube Goldberg contraption for hacksawing the teeth before filing…:cool:

[Adam Maxwell]

Adam, I think it was your floats, and Leigh's, that I had in mind when I posted. I think I'll give it a whirl. Now, if I can just dream up some Rube Goldberg contraption for hacksawing the teeth before filing…:cool:

Not sure I've mentioned it here, but they're pretty easy to make by hand. I eyeballed the spacing (so definitely have that varied pitch that Leigh mentioned!), and marked lines in layout dye with a scribe and square. Next, I hacksawed to nearly full depth of each tooth along those lines, then removed most of the gullet with the three-square file. The saw kerf is mainly a guide for straightness and depth. Once that's done, you can do a final jointing and filing with an appropriately sized saw file. The final spacing ended up being about 11 teeth per inch, if I recall correctly.

[Steve Voigt]

… then removed most of the gullet with the three-square file ... Once that's done, you can do a final jointing and filing with an appropriately sized saw file.

Hi Adam,
Just curious, what is the benefit of using the 3 square file, as opposed to just using a saw file for the whole job?

[Adam Maxwell]

Hi Adam,
Just curious, what is the benefit of using the 3 square file, as opposed to just using a saw file for the whole job?

The 3 square comes in a bastard cut, so it cuts faster and has fewer problems with pinning. However, it doesn't have as sharp a corner, so you end up with a more rounded gullet. I use soapstone (welder's marker from the hardware store) or chalk on my files, but pinning is still a nuisance with soft steel; it caused me some grief on the infill mitre plane I built recently.

[Steve Voigt]

The 3 square comes in a bastard cut, so it cuts faster and has fewer problems with pinning. However, it doesn't have as sharp a corner, so you end up with a more rounded gullet. I use soapstone (welder's marker from the hardware store) or chalk on my files, but pinning is still a nuisance with soft steel; it caused me some grief on the infill mitre plane I built recently.

Cool, thanks for the tips, Adam.

[Trevor Walsh]

The one's I've used and made have been irregular enough that they don't chatter like that. I never had an issue with chatter in the 6 or so mortises I cut.

[Roderick Gentry]

In my earlier post I mis-spoke. The bed float is 3/16" thick.

I followed the instructions and sharpened the float immediately after receiving it. I've had that float a while.

I make mine out of 3/16", but I thought in the catalog that it suggest the 1/8 for planes and the 3/16 for joints. The reason being that a 3/16" won't get all the way to the bottom on some planes that have a mouth for thinner blade stock. 3/16" works for me with the blades I use and the relief I grind.

[Roderick Gentry]

I've been making wooden planes for 35 years, and never owned a float until I made one a few years back. I don't think they are necessary for plane making, I wish I had had them, however. To my way of thinking planes fall into 4 categories:

- Planes where the surfaces are all machined, notably glued up planes.
- Planes were the interior surfaces are simple or for the most part hidden. Japanese bench planes for example.
- Planes that use other means than floats to work internal surfaces, like chisels, scrapers, files, power tools
- Planes that need floats, mainly the abutment type planes which have odd nooks, and some sculptural detailing, that can be hard to get done without specialized tools. You can easily machine abutment planes if that appeals to anyone.

I found that filing O1 floats went quickly but that the bed floats where hard to keep the teeth straight on. I think I am good with files, and I recognized the problems with starting and finishing low, I tired to use manipulations that would hollow the teeth out, but they still came out imperfectly. So I need more practice it seems...

Six things:

- I'm not looking for harder steel, you can by the way harden mild steel.
- Looking into machine tools a little, I have them and tried them, but they weren't all that easy to get these cuts with either. There are many cuts, and setting them all up accurately is a lot more time consuming on my machines than filing. Often the tools I have require me to orient the long side of the tool on the short axis of the machine, which isn't long enough. And in some cases the stock is hard to fixture, at least for one off production. So don't think you would be so much worse off if all you had was a sharp file.
- even if you don't have machine tools I would consider deep scoring with a sharp hacksaw, to get the straight line in
- Making the small one is pretty easy, if you want to save money, buy the bed float and make the rest.
- When spending money, getting the larger sized floats makes the whole thing seem at least a little better value, but you could get by with a smaller tool in many cases. The bed on a Japanese plane is in the 2-3 inch range. So that might be a thought for those who want to make their own, look at the actual planes you will be making. Unfortunately, the molding planes need a lot of blade.
- Even when they are badly made, in what would seem like a tool that would profit from being accurately made, I found they gave good service and accurate results. Maybe starting with very accurate stock means that while you don't get all your teeth perfectly formed, the high points are all in some kind of line.

While we are lucky for the current crop of floats... Many will think them too expensive, not to suggest they aren't a good value. I picked up, for a few dollars, a hardened file that cuts like a float, it was quite thin about an inch wide, had teeth that were cut with some kind of circular fly cutter device. Not sure what the tool was intended for, maybe hoofs. I think it was designed to be attached to a wooden handle. Anyway, just an example of what these ought to cost, particularly given that they have uses beyond plane making. The current pricing is only attractive to people with very deep pockets, who are into the experience of making their own stuff at any cost, and so forth. Not attractive to people who want to save money, or are interested mainly in getting stuff made. Which is too bad.

[Ryan Baker]

It's easy to get the teeth even. Just joint them and touch up the teeth, the same as for sharpening a saw.