Choosing an engraver

[Keith Winter]

Hi Guys,

We've currently got a Trotec Speedy 300 and two Signature engravers. We use the trotec for glass, wood, a little bit of stone, and we will likely also add some acrylic in the near future. The 2 signatures we use almost exclusively for metal. We're running all three two shifts to keep up with Christmas demand and just had to add a 3rd shift to keep up. The signatures are slow but are just barely keeping up for now, the laser is the biggest bottleneck since we only have the one. This is a temporary spike for the Christmas season but I only see our laser business expanding. I'd like to take advantage of the section 179 100% depreciation for this year on my taxes.

If you were me would you add another Trotec Speedy 300, get a co2/fiber combo laser? The combo co2/fiber laser costs about 80% more, and stand alone fiber lasers are about 50% more than co2 the rep said (if I wanted to add a fiber one as well down the line). Or would you suggest something completely different?

[Gary Hair]

The combo machine issue has been discussed before and I think the general consensus was that it even if it was a bit more to have both stand-alone machines and you would not have to worry about losing the entire machine if one part went down. I think a fiber is in my future and I will definitely buy a stand-alone when that time comes.

Gary

[Dave Sheldrake]

Hi Keith,

I'd go with a Galvo (from your supplier of preference) speedwise very little will keep up with them. Choice of sources from CO2 / Yag or Fiber so plenty of options.

cheers

Dave

[Dan Hintz]

Watch this space over the next few months... I'm putting together my "wish list" for a galvo fiber, and I think many will be surprised at how far the technology has come over recent years. It's still not cheap if you want quality components (particularly compared to CO2 systems), but it opens a lot of doors. Just remember, you have to start the learning process all over again... how different substrates act/react, settings, etc.

[matthew knott]

Interesting there is still a big premium on the fiber trotec over a co2 as the price of co2 tubes has if anything gone up but fiber laser has come down lots, could be trotec get a great deal on tubes as they buy so many, but I guess it can still be sold as a 'premium' product so they can charge a bit more, also the plastic for the viewing lid is expensive and you need different optics but mostly its the same machine.
I would vote for a fiber galvo too, be interesting to see whats on your wish list Dan

[Dave Sheldrake]

(This is just opinion)

I'd bet Matt that many companies still bank on the fact people are impressed by Galvo systems and the speeds they achieve based on their experiences with slower gantry units. I got a ride home in a Taxi the other night and the driver was an old school friend who knew I had something to do with lasers, he asked if the machines cost £millions and was surprised (and thought I was joking) when I said quite a few hobby people have them in their spare bedrooms these days.

To Joe in the street a Laser is something from "StarWars", to Joe the "Gantry" guy, a Galvo is one of those impressive monsters they would one day like to buy "but hey, they must cost loads"

It's easier to sell something to anybody at a high price if they expect a high price ;)

cheers

Dave

[Keith Winter]

I found a video of a Galvo laser online, it was very fast as you said. Can it do everything a CO2 can do or is it more like the fiber lasers? Any idea on the cost premium for these and do they come in setups like regular co2/fiber lasers do or is it only for industrial work?

[Dan Hintz]

I found a video of a Galvo laser online, it was very fast as you said. Can it do everything a CO2 can do or is it more like the fiber lasers? Any idea on the cost premium for these and do they come in setups like regular co2/fiber lasers do or is it only for industrial work?

Galvo is just a way to move the beam, just like the gantry is. With the appropriate mirrors installed, a galvo can support CO2, fiber, UV, etc.

Cost is relative... just like the Chinese CO2 systems, you can purchase Chinese fiber systems. Of course, doing so means you have to accept all of the quibbles that come with a typical Chinese-made laser... lower quality control (i.e., high unit-to-unit variability), less-refined beam quality, sometimes painful driver software, etc. From pricing I've seen, "comparable" Chinese units (read, same wattage, since the laser head is where the meat of the cost comes from) are roughly 1/2 to 1/3rd the price of Western units. However, you have to understand that 1/2 the cost also comes with a lesser-quality beam, which means comparative processing speed will be less than 100% of a Western unit. As with the CO2 machines, if you can handle the frustration of software that doesn't always work the way it should or odd parts failing prematurely, the trade-off is likely worth it to some. Not me, though... the kicker is the software. I can handle bits needing fixing, but the software is key to me.

[matthew knott]

Dan, the comparison between Chinese CO2's and Chinese Fibers is not as closer comparison as you would imagine, we buy fiber sources from 3 sources, one in the UK, one in Germany and one in China, they all have slightly different pro-cons but the beam quality form the Chinese machine and the German are exactly the same, the UK one is slightly worse. Its nothing like the RF vs Glass comparison, more a Apple vs Dell or something along those lines, the Chinese source we buy really is excellent, but then price-wise cost is something like 60-70% the cost of equivalent German laser, interestingly the BIG advantage of the Chinese laser is their customer service and lead time.
Obviously software and support are the really big issues for an end user buying a turn key machine, you cant be more right there Dan

Keith, a galvo fiber will be faster and enable you do different things, but it wont do , glass, wood, or acrylic and stone is different, it will do metal directly but you will have a smaller working area. Have a big think about what you want a new machine to do, might be a another trotec like the one you have is the answer, might be you want to branch out into other things and a galvo is what you need!!

[Dan Hintz]

Dan, the comparison between Chinese CO2's and Chinese Fibers is not as closer comparison as you would imagine, we buy fiber sources from 3 sources, one in the UK, one in Germany and one in China, they all have slightly different pro-cons but the beam quality form the Chinese machine and the German are exactly the same, the UK one is slightly worse. Its nothing like the RF vs Glass comparison, more a Apple vs Dell or something along those lines, the Chinese source we buy really is excellent, but then price-wise cost is something like 60-70% the cost of equivalent German laser, interestingly the BIG advantage of the Chinese laser is their customer service and lead time.
Obviously software and support are the really big issues for an end user buying a turn key machine, you cant be more right there Dan
Fair enough... maybe a more appropriate answer would have been pointing more towards how the Chinese systems are often YAG (tube pumped) or side-pumped fiber, rather than the more expensive (but higher point density) end-pumped?


Keith, a galvo fiber will be faster and enable you do different things, but it wont do , glass, wood, or acrylic and stone is different, it will do metal directly but you will have a smaller working area. Have a big think about what you want a new machine to do, might be a another trotec like the one you have is the answer, might be you want to branch out into other things and a galvo is what you need!!
To tweak Matt's answer... he probably should have separated "galvo" and "fiber" in that sentence. The fiber requires different substrates than the CO2, and the galvo portion makes it faster (with the caveat that it's at the expense of smaller working areas... there's even a caveat to the caveat, but I won't get into that just yet). Personally, I would love to have a galvo CO2 in addition to my flatbed, as they are each best at certain projects. I believe it's Jiten Patel that has successfully used a galvo CO2 to sell wares in the wedding/special event markets... not only are his designs highly intricate, but he can crank them out VERY quickly with his galvo.

[matthew knott]

Fair enough... maybe a more appropriate answer would have been pointing more towards how the Chinese systems are often YAG (tube pumped) or side-pumped fiber, rather than the more expensive (but higher point density) end-pumped?

You can buy a wide range of YAG wavelength lasers as you know Dan, when i refer to fiber laser is always a proper Ytterbium Fiber laser, . You can get end pumped YV04 lasers that use a fiber to deliver the pump source but these are not fiber lasers (have seen them sold as such). I'm just comparing proper fiber lasers such as SPI, IPG, Quantel, Vgen make. The Chinese (if you get a proper fiber laser) do use a pretty good source, obviously if you get a lamp pumped or something else then its a different story.




To tweak Matt's answer... he probably should have separated "galvo" and "fiber" in that sentence. The fiber requires different substrates than the CO2, and the galvo portion makes it faster (with the caveat that it's at the expense of smaller working areas... there's even a caveat to the caveat, but I won't get into that just yet). Personally, I would love to have a galvo CO2 in addition to my flatbed, as they are each best at certain projects. I believe it's Jiten Patel that has successfully used a galvo CO2 to sell wares in the wedding/special event markets... not only are his designs highly intricate, but he can crank them out VERY quickly with his galvo.

We have a Galvo CO2 but its very limited in marking area means its use is limited to the odd project, with a longer lens like Jit uses its ok for cutting paper but not much else.
The smaller spot size of the fiber suits a galvo system hence why galvo co2 are still quite a rare beast.
My dream machine would be something with the marking area of a Speedy500 with the speed of a galvo but thats not going to happen,

[Dan Hintz]

My dream machine would be something with the marking area of a Speedy500 with the speed of a galvo but thats not going to happen,

Don't be so sure... there are several Chinese systems that combine a galvo head on a gantry system. It zips through a small square portion, the gantry moves the head to a new square, rinse and repeat. No idea what the systems cost, but if high speed is your concern, this is definitely one way to go. Saw a neat conveyer-based system that did similar work on long items... I don't think they had the patch-to-patch alignment tweaked, but it should be doable.