Vintage no 3 or 4 smoother vs. modern BU or high angle frog smoother

[David Kuzdrall]

I am trying to figure out which direction to go with regard to a smoothing plane. There is the vintage route which I believe all have 45deg frog angles necessitating the full use of back bevels and or chip breakers, then there is the modern route of high frog angles and BU planes giving high cutting angles.

Would it be a fair assumption to say that the newer planes are going to be more forgiving in setup and use due to the higher cutting angles being designed in from the beginning? Can the vintage 45 deg frog plane perform as well as modern high above setup in reducing tearout? If so, would it take aftermarket irons, chip breakers and mods?

thx

[Mike Brady]

The short answer to your question is: A quality modern plane will, in my experience, outperform a vintage plane. You will most likely get to your goal much quicker if you skip the expense and trial and error of trying to make an old plane behave. I say this because your question betrays your lack of experience. You could buy a vintage plane from someone here that will already have the tweaks done, at a lower cost than a new plane. You still are going to have to get to a point of confidence in your ability to sharpen a plane, whichever way you go. I learned much by refurbishing and tuning old planes, but I have to admit that I didn't know what a plane could do until I bought some premium modern planes. That's my take on your question.

[Joe Tilson]

I got into the vintage plane side a few months ago, and this has taught me a lot about planes. If I had it to do over I would have gotten a modern plane or planes in order to get started with some kind of project. All I have been able to do so far is practice, because my sharpening skills are lacking at this time. When you do get started try to find someone near you who can help you get started.
Joe

[Maurice Ungaro]

David,
I've been using the LV LA Block with addt'l toe and front knob that I bought from you a year ago last summer as a BU #3 smoother. Works great for that. As for modern BD smoothers, I picked up a LV 4 1/2 that performs flawlessly. No set required. Great mouth adjustment. It's not high angle, but I have a BU smoother that can be fitted with a 50* blade if need be.

[Chris Vandiver]

If you set the chipbreaker close to the edge of the blade(there has been much info posted on this subject recently)there is no need for a high angle frog.

I would get a #4 before a #3. If you want great results immediately, buy a premium plane from LN or LV.

[maximillian arango]

If you are as new as I am to wood working I would suggest that you get an old beat up plane to begin with. I feel that I am learning so much every step of refurbishing this plane that if I am ever to get a new better plane I will be able to set it up and use it much better then I would be able to if I started off with that better plane.

You wouldn't appreciate a Ferrari if it was your first car shouldn't we follow that with everything in life?

Just a suggestion from a noob who doesn't know what bu means :D

[Hilton Ralphs]

David, there's a nice looking Stanley No.4 in the classifieds that shouldn't need much attention.

[Bill Rhodus]

If you are going to use the plane, get a Veritas #4, hone it, and go to work. If you are collecting, get anything you want. There are planes other than Veritas that are fine planes, but none will give you an immediate user at as good a price point as the Veritas.

[David Weaver]

? Can the vintage 45 deg frog plane perform as well as modern high above setup in reducing tearout? If so, would it take aftermarket irons, chip breakers and mods?

thx

Yes, no, no and no.

If the cap iron was never touched, you might need to prepare it, and if there is a lot of wear on the sole of the plane, a brief and light lapping might be in order. Less is more when lapping the sole of a plane.

It will be *easier* to use a premium plane at the outset. A little while in from that, personally, I'm finding it easier to use a single washita stone and stock stanley's than the elaborate setup I had before. The cap iron is the key that binds everything together with that setup (being able to use the stock iron, not sharpen to sub micron sharpness - though my washita is settled in and will still shave hair).

[Graham Haydon]

If price point is an issue keep your eyes peeled for a good #4 from Stanley, Record, Marples etc from the late 1960's or earlier. Don't be afraid to pay a little more for good item that looks to be well cared for.
If price point is no issue the modern take on the bedrock design by Lie-Nielsen & Clifton would be wonderful tools to own.
If the above are set and used properly you should have no issue in use. I cant comment on the Bevel Up planes as I have not tried them although many do like them a lot.

[Chris Griggs]

Yes, no, no and no....


It will be *easier* to use a premium plane at the outset. .

Yep, that pretty much sum it up. I love my premium planes, but they are not a requirement for admission...neither are aftermarket blades and chipbreakers, though they can be nice to have.

[Derek Cohen]

I am trying to figure out which direction to go with regard to a smoothing plane. There is the vintage route which I believe all have 45deg frog angles necessitating the full use of back bevels and or chip breakers, then there is the modern route of high frog angles and BU planes giving high cutting angles.

Would it be a fair assumption to say that the newer planes are going to be more forgiving in setup and use due to the higher cutting angles being designed in from the beginning? Can the vintage 45 deg frog plane perform as well as modern high above setup in reducing tearout? If so, would it take aftermarket irons, chip breakers and mods?

thx

Hi David

The bottom line is that any of these planes can be made to do the work you wish. In the end it will come down to personal preferences in terms of feedback, ease of set up, comfort, perceived control, and ease of adjustments.

I like the #3 size of plane for smaller work pieces, and prefer it to a #4. I have a #3 Stanley (which belonged to my father-in-law), a #3 LN with 55 degree frog, and the LV SBUS (the same one that Chris posted a review about).

The English-made #3 Stanley is one that I have just restored - in addition to lapping the sole, I filed all mating surfaces. The blade is a HSS Mujingfang with a flexible chipbreaker (not a nice one), yet I can set it up to smooth really interlocked grain. I think that the work I have done on it would please Bob (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Commentary/BobsStanley3.html). It is now waiting on a LV PM-V11 blade and chipbreaker - it will be interesting to see what difference this makes.

The LN #3 is a fine smoother. Much tauter than the Stanley, in spite of the work I have done - less backlash and it does not require the chipbreaker to be set up, which can be fiddly. A lot more mass in a small plane. It has a sense of authority. Incidentally, mine has a #4 handle as the original one is too small for my hand. It works here because of the high frog. It would not fit with the common angle frog.

The SBUS is light and floats through the all interlocked woods, hard and soft. It feels nimble. Different to the Baileys.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Planes/LV%20planes/Small%20BU%20Smoother/BUand3-1.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

I am trying to figure out which direction to go with regard to a smoothing plane. There is the vintage route which I believe all have 45deg frog angles necessitating the full use of back bevels and or chip breakers, then there is the modern route of high frog angles and BU planes giving high cutting angles.

Would it be a fair assumption to say that the newer planes are going to be more forgiving in setup and use due to the higher cutting angles being designed in from the beginning? Can the vintage 45 deg frog plane perform as well as modern high above setup in reducing tearout? If so, would it take aftermarket irons, chip breakers and mods?

thx

You are in luck if you have some free time on January 17th or 18th. There will be a LN Tool Event in Raleigh, NC those days.

There are opportunities to test drive any of the planes they make. There will also be people there happy to answer questions. They usually have a sharpening set up to keep their blades sharp.

If you work difficult woods it probably wouldn't be a problem if you brought some of your own wood to the show. Leave it in the car and ask them when you get there.

You might even ask if you are trying their LA BU Jack plane (LN #62) if they have blades available at different angles.

There is a lot to be learned and some great people to meet at these shows.

Currently I am not in the market for any tools, at least that I know of, but I am thinking of going to the next event in Portland this February.

My path has to restore older planes. It isn't a path for everyone. It has taught me a lot, but it has also been frustrating at times.

My most important discovery was how to sharpen a blade.

Even little things like a new coat of paint can change one's perception about how a plane feels. If backlash on the adjusting mechanism will be a royal pain, then you do not want an older plane.

jtk

[lowell holmes]

I have the LV BU Smoother and the LV BU Jack. I have all of the irons for them. They are taut good performing planes and there are certain tasks that they are called for.

I must say that I also have a 604 Bedrock with the new LV iron and chip breaker in it. With that combination, it has become the plane that stays on my bench.

I also have a #3 Bailey that has a new old stock iron that I use a lot.

[Kees Heiden]

As long as there are still milions of old Stanleys floating around, nobody NEEDS a new plane. Generations before us were perfectly happy with them. Get yourself a 4, a 5 and a 7 and you are set for life. The rest is compulsive accumulation disorder.

[Sean Hughto]

The rest is compulsive accumulation disorder.

But it feels so good! New planes are known dopamine reuptake inhibitors.

[Chris Griggs]

But it feels so good! New planes are known dopamine reuptake inhibitors.

That explains why I always seem to order them after I've been drinking.


(Sorry esoteric joke...for the non psych nerds out there alcohol effects dopamine levels...its funny if your a psych nerd...I promise)

((What's even funnier, if your as big a dork as I am, is that Seans statement is somewhat accurate...just about anything that induces pleasure impacts dopamine...there's a reason shopping, gambling, collecting, etc... are so addictive..ok, end random super dork detour, just having flashbacks from my days in psych research))

[steven c newman]

Seems all I have , except one, is vintage planes. I even have a "Yorkie" Dunlap, with a west German iron ( metric width, too) in a #3 size. The exception? A Wood River #4 V3.

The York Dunlap used a different way to get the higher pitch. The frog itself will sit flat on any other plane's base. The Dunlap base was cast with the base for the frog at an angle. Seems to be at least a 50 degree angle. The WR #4 V3 is a Bedrock design. I use the Dunlap on swirly grain areas. Cost of this "high tech German Design"? About $8.00+ tax.

[Tony Wilkins]

But it feels so good! New planes are known dopamine reuptake inhibitors.

Looks like I picked the wrong time to quit sniffing glue.

(movie reference and attempt at joke)

[Mark Engel]

Looks like I picked the wrong time to quit sniffing glue.

(movie reference and attempt at joke)

Leslie Nielsen (Dr. Rumack), Airplane. Good movie.

[Mark Engel]

As long as there are still milions of old Stanleys floating around, nobody NEEDS a new plane. Generations before us were perfectly happy with them. Get yourself a 4, a 5 and a 7 and you are set for life. The rest is compulsive accumulation disorder.

Uh Oh. I may have CAD. Is there a cure?

277476 277477 277478 277479 277480 277481 277482 277483

[David Kuzdrall]

You all have given me lots of food for thought...I think for this plane it really depends on what kind of a deal I find on a Stanley no 4 or a bedrock 604. I hope to attend the lie Nielsen event in Raleigh in Jan as recommend, that should give me a chance to try the high frog angle smothers and make a final decision.

thx for all the replies.

[Mark Engel]

David, you are welcome to stop by my shop if you would like to try out a few antique hand planes.

[Chris Vandiver]

But it feels so good! New planes are known dopamine reuptake inhibitors.


I love the smell of dopamine in the morning!

[Adam Cruea]

That explains why I always seem to order them after I've been drinking.


(Sorry esoteric joke...for the non psych nerds out there alcohol effects dopamine levels...its funny if your a psych nerd...I promise)

((What's even funnier, if your as big a dork as I am, is that Seans statement is somewhat accurate...just about anything that induces pleasure impacts dopamine...there's a reason shopping, gambling, collecting, etc... are so addictive..ok, end random super dork detour, just having flashbacks from my days in psych research))

Alcohol also inhibits serotonin reuptake, I believe. Self-medication for the non-win and lack of inhibition for the win! :-D

There's a reason why when I'm drinking I keep the credit card away from me and avoid browsing LN or LV. :p I suggest the same for you, my friend. lol

[Chris Griggs]

Alcohol also inhibits serotonin reuptake, I believe. Self-medication for the non-win and lack of inhibition for the win! :-D

There's a reason why when I'm drinking I keep the credit card away from me and avoid browsing LN or LV. :p I suggest the same for you, my friend. lol

:) Actually, LN/LV sites don't get me when I've had a few...Ebay HAS been known to get me when I've had a few. There's an element of gambling there, and the lack of inhibition can make it really easy to get drawn into a good ebay deal. Of course, the fact that auctions that end late on a Friday night are often great deals doesn't help. A few drinks and some late night Ebay browsing landed me a Type 11 No. 7 with a Hock blade for about $50 shipped once. In general, though yes, I do keep away from buying sites on Friday nights. My wife has a tendacy to buy shoes on Friday nights after a movie and a couple beers. Fortunately, we are fiscally cautious and dead sober the rest of the week so we end up okay. Friday night is for drinks, junk food, and reckless spending....everything in moderation. Although, I must confess, poor Dave W has been the recipient of more than one under the influence Friday night PM, after a particularly exciting Ebay win. :)

[David Weaver]

They always go something like "I got ethiopian take out tonight, had a lot to drink, and I just got a plane for 50 bucks!!!"

Except they're longer and always very happy drunk PMs :)

[Chris Griggs]

They always go something like "I got ethiopian take out tonight, had a lot to drink, and I just got a plane for 50 bucks!!!"

Except they're longer and always very happy drunk PMs :)

That's about to change! A Vegan fast food restaurant (God I love Philly!) just went in about 1/2 mile from our new house, so now they'll read more like this

"I got a fake Chicken Ranch sandwich, some fries, and a milk a shake for take out tonight, had a lot to drink, and I just got a plane for 50 bucks!!!"

Who knew my 30s would be so great?!!!:)

[lowell holmes]

David, a common problem with the old planes is caused by the chip breaker not being set up properly. I have found that the LV blade and chip breaker solves a lot of problems. Other alternatives for buying such a combination are with Hock, Woodcraft, and Lie Nielsen.

I found that the old Stanley chip breakers were not easy to set up, they just were not as much mass in them.

I put the LV combinations in all of my Bedrocks and I am quite satisfied with the planes. I did have to enlarge the mouth on two of the planes, but it only took a few minutes on each plane to file the mouth out. The 604 has become my favorite smoother. I am kind of fickle though and could favor one of the other planes next week. My LV BU smoother is a fine plane.

[Adam Cruea]

That's about to change! A Vegan fast food restaurant (God I love Philly!) just went in about 1/2 mile from our new house, so now they'll read more like this

"I got a fake Chicken Ranch sandwich, some fries, and a milk a shake for take out tonight, had a lot to drink, and I just got a plane for 50 bucks!!!"

Who knew my 30s would be so great?!!!:)

A milkshake and a lot to drink? Oh man. . .your poor stomach.

That's like eating Thai food and drinking straight whiskey, man. What did your gut do to deserve that? :p

[Chris Griggs]

That's like eating Thai food and drinking straight whiskey, man.:p

That sounds like my kinda Friday night meal man! Love Thai food...love whiskey. No I'm not joking, I'm sure I've had that combination in more than one occasion.

My gut gets nice healthy non-processed plant based food all week... the vast majority of my meals are some type of legume and rice. It can handle some abuse on Fridays :). Plus veganism gives you super powers.


Also....just to make this post slightly on topic. I like planes...all the ones mentioned are good options, so buy them all :D

[Clay Fails]

As long as there are still milions of old Stanleys floating around, nobody NEEDS a new plane. Generations before us were perfectly happy with them. Get yourself a 4, a 5 and a 7 and you are set for life. The rest is compulsive accumulation disorder.

Agree 100 percent with this opinion. Although not necessary, new blade and chip breaker (e.g. Hock, LN, or Pinnacle), can really improve the performance of these old planes.

[Kees Heiden]

I mus tconfess that my bench plane collection is a little bit larger then just a 4, a 5 and a 7. I think I have 6 smoothers at the moment, 2 jointers and something like 6 scrubs, jacks and fores in all kinds of configurations.

[Judson Green]

Leslie Nielsen (Dr. Rumack), Airplane. Good movie.

Nah. Lloyd Bridges (SteveMcCroskey)