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Lisabeth Shaffer
12-14-2013, 8:27 PM
I clean the metal to get rid of the rest of the residue and the marking wipes off. I've tried different power/speed and it always looks great until I clean it. I was reading other posts about this, but didn't see a solution. Has anyone had any luck with a polished metal and Thermark spray?

Can laser foil be used on metal? I saw threads about the foil with examples of wood, but didn't see anything about metal.

Thank you in advance.

Lisabeth

Mark Sipes
12-14-2013, 9:17 PM
What type of metal are you attempting to apply the spray onto?

Dan Hintz
12-14-2013, 10:03 PM
Thermark/Cermark wiping off with cleaning is the result of one of the following:
1) Improper power/speed applied during processing... if it wipes off, it's generally too little power and/or too fast of a speed.
2) Coating on substrate that was not removed before application of Thermark/Cermark
3) Substrate is not appropriate for use with Thermark/Cermark. One example would be gold.

Steve Clarkson
12-15-2013, 9:25 AM
It would also help if you had your laser listed in your signature so we know the brand and wattage. Also, make sure you clean the metal with DNA before applying the Cermark. And IMHO it only works well on stainless steel.

Gary Hair
12-15-2013, 11:04 AM
I'll add one more to Dan's list - 4) Cermark/Thermark applied too thick. You need a coating that just barely covers the metal, too little is much better than too much. If the coating is completely opaque then you have too much.

Lisabeth Shaffer
12-15-2013, 5:45 PM
The item is silver plate.

First I tried the standard VL300 driver and chose bare metal marking compound (dark). Looked great. Wiped right off.

Then I tried the VL300 advanced driver and set it for 45p 8s. Looked great. Wiped right off.

I will apply the Thermark again and be sure it is not thick. I will also try the settings at higher power same low speed.

I want to try all I can before I give up.

Ross Moshinsky
12-15-2013, 5:49 PM
As far as I know, Cermark doesn't easily (or possibly at all) stick to silver plating.

Dan Hintz
12-15-2013, 6:29 PM
You need to create a power grid to find the proper settings... guessing at this point will not net you any useful results. At 40W, you should be running at full power with that speed.

Kev Williams
12-15-2013, 6:38 PM
I've been using Cermark (the LMM6000 spray) for 12 years. It will NOT stick to silver or gold. Or chrome, at least the chrome I've tried... I bought some dog tags I thought were polished SS, but were chrome plated. I run SS at 100 power, 18 speed, 500-600 Y-lines per inch, 600-1000 X-dots per inch with my 40w New Hermes, with great results. I've hit silver, gold and chrome with the slowest/highest power/highest resolutions settings I can, and all the cermark, and the black, just rinses off.

Gary Hair
12-15-2013, 7:12 PM
The item is silver plate.
This is your first problem, silver plate is difficult if not impossible to mark.


set it for 45p 8s

This is your second problem.

With a 40 watt machine you will always run at 100% power and adjust speed as needed. There is never a reason to use less than 100% power with Cermark/Thermark. As Dan suggested, you need to run a power grid to determine the best speed. Mark 1/4" squares using 10/12/14/16/etc. speed and scrub vigorously after lasering. When you find the mark that works you can start with that for the next material and just go up and down a few % to dial it in. For aluminum, silver plate, gold, etc., you may not have enough power to mark it even at your slowest speed. Try 1% to 10% speed and see what happens though, you never know!

Lisabeth Shaffer
12-15-2013, 8:43 PM
Also, make sure you clean the metal with DNA before applying the Cermark.

What is DNA?

David Somers
12-15-2013, 8:55 PM
Lisabeth,

DNA is Denatured Alcohol.

Dave

David Somers
12-15-2013, 9:06 PM
So....I am curious. If you go to the Thermark web site you will find a table they have done up showing recommended power levels for a few different wattage lasers and a bunch of materials. And clearly show sliver plate as a material with settings for a 30 Watt laser with a 2in lens of 7in/sec at 1000dpi.

I am entirely too trusting a person cause I would look at that and say "Golly Gosh! They seem to be saying this stuff works on silver plate!" But this thread and others in the engraving forum all say your experiences with silver and Thermark/Cermark is pretty p' poor? They also clearly show gold plate as a material with recommended settings as well. Are these folks just wicked dishonest or are we missing something?

Here is a screen shot of the table from their site by the way.

277209

Gary Hair
12-16-2013, 12:50 AM
I guarantee you that those settings won't work on 99% of the machines out there. My laser is 30 watts and runs 80ips - if I tried to run stainless steel at their settings that would be 100% power and almost full speed (77ips) - never gonna happen with my machine, or anyone else's, at those settings. Same thing goes for aluminum - I have tried 100% power and 5% to 10% speed and it works occasionally. The general rule of thumb that Ferro recommends for stainless is 100% power and speed equal to your machine power - AS A STARTING POINT - from there you do a power grid and adjust as necessary. I have no idea where they got those settings but I can tell you from my experience that they will not work.

David Somers
12-16-2013, 1:14 AM
Gary,

That is pretty amazing. Obviously I have a lot to keep an eye out for as I get into this stuff. Thanks for sharing your experiences with this stuff!

Dave

Jeff Belany
12-16-2013, 10:27 AM
I have also used Thermark's setting (Thermark tape) and found them totally off. When I asked them all they would say is that's a starting point. Well IMHO -- their starting point isn't even close. Used much higher power and slower speeds and still didn't work. I know a lot of the member here use Cermark/Thermark successfully but my experience is only fair. One of the biggest problems I have (for picky customers) is the discoloring of the metal by the compound. Isn't much but it is there. Did an axe head a couple weeks ago that had that issue and customer wasn't very happy about it. For the little bit I do, I'm close to just not offering the service.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff in northern Wisconsin

Mike Null
12-16-2013, 10:37 AM
Jeff
the discoloring is easily removed with a polish--brass or aluminum polish will work.

It is wishful thinking to assume you'll get a good result on silver plate. That goes for chrome plating as well if it has been made in China.

David Somers
12-16-2013, 11:50 AM
Mike,

Asking out of total ignorance. Would it be worthwhile in terms of time to put masking tape or something similar on the product, burn that mask off with a fast run, and then apply the Cermark and reburn it? That way you don't have the cermark discolouring the metal and requiring polishing to remove the discolouration?

Dave

Gary Hair
12-16-2013, 12:07 PM
Mike,

Asking out of total ignorance. Would it be worthwhile in terms of time to put masking tape or something similar on the product, burn that mask off with a fast run, and then apply the Cermark and reburn it? That way you don't have the cermark discolouring the metal and requiring polishing to remove the discolouration?

Dave

In my experience, staining occurs so seldom that masking would be a waste of time. Due to the fact that Cermark needs a very clean surface to adhere properly, a "fast run" may not remove all residue from the mask and may create more problems than it solves. Plus, the potential time savings by not having to polish after would be negated many times over by the time it would take to remove the mask. There are ways to avoid, or at least reduce, the staining - spraying the Cermark from farther away so it dries a bit before it hits the metal and heating the part so it dries quicker when it does hit, as well as applying, lasering and cleaning in as little time as possible. All are recommendations from Ferro.

David Somers
12-16-2013, 12:46 PM
Great! Will add that to my growing pile of notes for use when I finally have a machine! Thanks Gary!

Dave

Kev Williams
12-16-2013, 5:19 PM
As for cermark discoloring-- be very careful on metals that will rust. Cermark will just about ruin some carbon steels. I had some carbon steel chisels a guy dropped off, and the cermark caused them to darken and rust right before my eyes. I was able to remove the rust, but couldn't bring back the color no matter what I tried.

Lisabeth Shaffer
12-18-2013, 9:23 AM
Thank you all for your input.

I tried it one more time at 100p 1s and it was enough to mess up the material, but not near enough to look good. Bummer. Live and learn.

I also tried using LaserFoil from LaserBits since the material was already messed up. I'm not sure I did it right, but it didn't work on the metal as I have seen in videos on wood. I will try again at different settings just to play with it.

Thanks.
Lisabeth

Bill Cunningham
12-19-2013, 8:48 PM
Good chrome marks well, but needs to be hit harder than stainless. I use 1200dpi 100% power, and I think about 8% speed. If the chrome is from N.America or Europe it usually marks well. I always tell customers that if your part is Chinese chrome, It's pre-paid, and there is no guarantee that it's going to work. I use cermark on pewter, Titanium, and high carbon steel like knife blades. I've had no luck on aluminum however..

Thomas Baranowski
04-01-2014, 8:56 PM
I know this is an older thread but it is one to keep open and moving. I used to ( key words ) do Thermark for a Harley motor builder, had great results for 2 years then suddenly with the same parts I could no longer get bonds , not even getting ghosting on the edge of fonts. I have tried different material, DNA, every setting under the sun, cleaned mirrors often and any other variable end checking the settings on a piece of corian I use just for history etching everything I do for this client and it was just as deep at same settings.
The only thing out of my control was the plating and I have to believe the vendor got a cheaper source and the plating is inferior. I have had to tell this cleint I will no longer offer the service. As Bill posted, going forward only on request I will do it but prepaid and no guarantee which is not how I like doing business.

Allen Rawley
04-02-2014, 12:57 AM
Here is my hunch (that means no experience). Though I have experience using the tape, liquid, and spray versions of the product, and have used it unsuccessfully with Chinese glass tube lasers and very successfully using a Synrad F100 for laser marking stainless steel, I have a hunch that the Universal Laser products are less equipped than the Epilog laser machines at the same wattage (depends on the laser installed). The design for the Universal Laser resonator (laser head) is the same as the Synrad, where the laser power is modulated (or averaged) to get the output power--the key point is that a Synrad/Universal Laser has a laser power that never exceeds the maximum average power (so a 30 watt laser tube will never hit more than 30 watts). However, the Coherent DEOS series are designed to hit higher peak powers (above 30 watts for a 30 watt laser). The hunch is that these lasers will perform better with high peak powers hitting the Ferro products.

Mike Null
04-02-2014, 6:37 AM
This goes back a few years but my experience with ULS was that it delivered a higher than rated power. 34 watts instead of the rated 25 watts.

Bill Stearns
04-02-2014, 10:59 AM
Hey All -
All good advice above. Want' a add my .02 cents. I am the guy who does lots 'n lots of (stainless steel) knives - using Cermark spray. Each item sprayed, then hand washed in a sink afterwards. (still have all ten fingers!) I learned the hard way not to wash 'em using Dawn dish soap - otherwise a great product, it eats right through Cermark! (or, 'least fades the marking.) Luke-warm water, and soft cloth, does the job. I've also done chrome successfully. (Epilog 35W - 9 or 10 speed/100 power - 400 dpi). Things to be thankful for? - learned the other day that my 35W is at the lowest range needed to metal mark these much-needed jobs!

Bill S.

David Somers
04-02-2014, 11:36 AM
Bill,

I am curious. Will Dawn do that to Cermark even after a period of time has passed, not just shortly after it has been applied and set by engraving? If so, those of us using it for kitchen ware or stuff that might be washed at the kitchen sink might want to warn customers?

Dave

Barb Macdonald
04-02-2014, 1:20 PM
Always interesting reading. For my experience, the only time CerMark has worked perfectly is when I'm making small sample pieces, that make no money.
Actual work pieces? Never.
No idea why, we do nothing different from one set-up to the next, same St.St. etc.
Large pieces are just not worth the aggro. to me.
fyi, I've used St.St.pieces that were sprayed with CerMark months before, and they worked well. Of course, they were samples..
60 watt epilog, using full power.

Bill Stearns
04-02-2014, 8:01 PM
To David S -
I can't say 'bout what might happen with later washing of the items with Dawn. Think it may just happen directly after marking 'n washing the knives 'n items. Caught the problem fairly early 'n the game, thank heavens. (use only water now.) May find this interesting: I'm a one person operation and when having to do 200 to 400 knives at a time, I've got' a move 'em through the process pretty quick - spraying, laser marking, washing, drying. After rinsing 'em in the sink, I carefully pile them into a plastic bin - I use my powerful leaf-blower to drive 'em in mass. (versus hand drying). Once I tried this while the knives were spread out 'cross my kitchen counters - not 'n the bin - turned on the leaf blower 'n had knives flying all over the kitchen! Funny now - wasn't then.

Bill

David Somers
04-03-2014, 10:38 AM
Oh my....you got me laughing pretty good Bill. I have an image in my mind now that is not going away!

Dave

Bill Cunningham
04-03-2014, 10:06 PM
I've always used just water to wash off cermark. Just let them soak and the unfused cermark comes right off. I had no idea Dawn would effect it.. Darn they wash ducks in that stuff.. Must be a Green Peace Plot! :p

Dan Hintz
04-04-2014, 7:59 AM
I had no idea Dawn would effect it..

I wasn't going to say anything, but since everyone keeps posting about it...

I have serious doubts Dawn is affecting the mark. It's glass with an inorganic colorant... dishwashing liquid is simply not going to affect it in any permanent fashion. The metal Cermark is on can be heated to cherry red without affect, it's impervious to oil, gas, many acids, etc. Ferro will happily confirm/guarantee this. I would hazard to say any affect seen was either temporary and/or due to an improper mark (sorry, Bill).

Bill Stearns
04-04-2014, 11:24 AM
DAN -
After thinking 'bout it- (Dawn dish soap washing off some of my Cermark sprayed images) - you're probably right - improper marking being the culprit. In my efforts to spray so many knives, I may be applying too much, or too little, to some, uh? Is there 'way to get the Cermark image off the knife after marking with laser - those which have been corrupted? - (too light an image) - some product, or method? Like you said, the specs say it holds up to just 'bout everything.) I've actually lightly sanded off the images, but, as you can imagine this leaves the metal blade looking different than the rest - not to mention the time involved. Thanks for your input - you're always such a help to all of us; you really are! BTW: was your earlier "knife 'n the neck" comment directed at me? Was wondering? ... :confused:

Bill

Mike Null
04-04-2014, 12:05 PM
I too, was going to let this pass, but I agree with Dan--the piece was not properly marked. Dawn should have no effect on Cermark.

Dan Hintz
04-04-2014, 3:57 PM
DAN -
After thinking 'bout it- (Dawn dish soap washing off some of my Cermark sprayed images) - you're probably right - improper marking being the culprit. In my efforts to spray so many knives, I may be applying too much, or too little, to some, uh? Is there 'way to get the Cermark image off the knife after marking with laser - those which have been corrupted? - (too light an image) - some product, or method? Like you said, the specs say it holds up to just 'bout everything.) I've actually lightly sanded off the images, but, as you can imagine this leaves the metal blade looking different than the rest - not to mention the time involved. Thanks for your input - you're always such a help to all of us; you really are! BTW: was your earlier "knife 'n the neck" comment directed at me? Was wondering? ... :confused:

Bill

A good mark should require a solid scrubbing with sandpaper to remove it... if you can do it with a few swipes of steel wool and such (or less), you need to revisit your settings.

The knife in the back comment was about the earlier pokes at me (from others, not you) for not showing examples from my Trotec (one of those "this thread is worthless without pics" kind of moments)... a (partially) inside joke with a few others watching for my Trotec updates ;)

Tamsyn Michael
04-05-2014, 4:47 AM
We measured the output on our 60W ULS Laser and it read 75W at the surface. I have experience with both a 50W Epilog Mini, and the ULS, and I know which I prefer (the ULS for the record - hands down). The Laser was replaced recently though. Since this we've had a problem with banding when using Thermark, which *appears* to be due to the power being too high, though I still prefer Thermark to Cermark, which has more of an issue of not adhearing properly (especially to brass, but also sometimes with SS). As far as I knew either substance was usually run with the highest possible ppi settings?

Dan Hintz
04-05-2014, 9:47 AM
Since this we've had a problem with banding when using Thermark, which *appears* to be due to the power being too high, though I still prefer Thermark to Cermark, which has more of an issue of not adhearing properly (especially to brass, but also sometimes with SS).

Are you using the same product number when comparing Cermark to Thermark? It's the same stuff (product number to product number), just a different label on the can:
http://www.thermark.com/TM_Downloads/TherMark_vs_CerMark.pdf

Mike Null
04-05-2014, 10:03 AM
Actually there are very few products that share the same number and as near as I can tell they are for use on glass.

There is a new product for brass and aluminum called LM6060 by Cermark (maybe Thermark too). Johnson Plastics has the item in their line.

I've done some testing on .060" thick brass with good results but could not achieve adherence on thin brass or aluminum.

To be fair I haven't really tested it thoroughly on thin brass and aluminum.

Bill Cunningham
04-10-2014, 9:30 PM
I wasn't going to say anything, but since everyone keeps posting about it...

I have serious doubts Dawn is affecting the mark. It's glass with an inorganic colorant... dishwashing liquid is simply not going to affect it in any permanent fashion. The metal Cermark is on can be heated to cherry red without affect, it's impervious to oil, gas, many acids, etc. Ferro will happily confirm/guarantee this. I would hazard to say any affect seen was either temporary and/or due to an improper mark (sorry, Bill).

Well!! I guess it should have Dawned on me...If I swap em around, I can safely use Cermark on ducks too !;)

David Somers
04-11-2014, 10:36 AM
Tamsyn,

Not to take the thread off topic, but you said "I have experience with both a 50W Epilog Mini, and the ULS, and I know which I prefer (the ULS for the record - hands down.)" As someone who is seemingly perpetually looking at a laser I was curious why if you don't mind sharing?

Dave

Dan Hintz
04-11-2014, 10:40 AM
Well!! I guess it should have Dawned on me...If I swap em around, I can safely use Cermark on ducks too !;)

Cermark on ducks? Interesting. I'll send you my bill...

Glen Monaghan
04-11-2014, 10:44 AM
Cermark on ducks? Interesting. I'll send you my bill...

Although that remark caught me flat footed this morning, I'm just going to let it roll off my back 'cuz I'm down with that...

Dan Hintz
04-11-2014, 10:49 AM
Although that remark caught me flat footed this morning, I'm just going to let it roll off my back 'cuz I'm down with that...

I'm thinking the same, Glen... two birds of a feather and all that...