Convert LN Tenon Saw from Rip to Xcut?

[Hilton Ralphs]

I have a 16" tapered rip saw from LN that I am thinking about changing to a crosscut. The plate is 0.020" thick and the teeth are cut at 11ppi.

I haven't measured the rake but how difficult would it be to convert this saw? The only problem that I can see is that the rake may be too aggressive for a crosscut.


I have a beautiful Bontz rip tenon saw so instead of giving more money to Rob for a crosscut tenon saw, I thought I could just convert what I have instead.

Thoughts?

[Maurice Ungaro]

Hilton, I'm no saw sharpener, but I've got two old Diston panel saws that were once cross cut, but filed to rip cut. Should not be a problem with what you are asking. Anyone else have an idea?

[David Weaver]

You just need to refile it. You'll have to decide if 11 point crosscut is what you want - hopefully it is, because it'll be a lot more work to refile entirely new teeth into the saw.

You're right, the rake will need to be relaxed to about 15 degrees. I'd put fleam on it then of about 20, and it should be plenty good for work at that tooth count.

[Chris Griggs]

Not hard. Personally, I would first joint the saw down a bit and then reset the rake where want it with no fleam. Then do a very light jointing and add the fleam. Technically you use up a hair more saw plate that way, but I get best results when I do it as two steps.

[Mike Brady]

Chris's summary of jointing, then refiling is good advice, since you have to reshape the tooth profile before adding set and fleam. That should make a nice, fine-cut crosscut saw.

Not as radical, but I just relaxed the rake on the first couple of inches of a tenon saw that I was having trouble starting in hardwood end grain. While I was at it, I evened the old / new teeth with a light jointing and sharpening and made sure the set was the same throughout. I now starts easily and tracks straight. My point is that once you get over the trepidation of putting a file to a saw, you open up a whole scope of possibilities.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I've done what Chris mentions. With something like 11pt teeth, it's not too hard.

[Curtis Niedermier]

I took the saw sharpening seminar at Bad Axe back in September, and while there I bought a 12-inch small tenon/dovetail hybrid. I think it's 13 pitch (most are 14, I think, but this one was already made). I had Mark change it from hybrid cut to rip. We made some test cuts across the grain, and the results were fantastic. As good as any crosscut saw I've used. Mark told me that one famous woodworker always filed his saws rip, whether for ripping or crosscutting. I think it was Sam Maloof, but I can't recall for sure. Either way, have you tried using the rip teeth to cross cut? It might be too coarse for that with 11 point teeth. But, it's worth a try before you start filing. I should also point out that Bad Axe files rip saws with a few degrees of fleam, so it's not a 0-degree fleam file job. Maybe that's part of the reason my saw crosscuts so well. They also relax the rake on the toe to make it easier to start. You might try just changing the rake and fleam on the first inch, or inch and a half.

[Rob Lee]

......so instead of giving more money to Rob for a crosscut tenon saw, I thought I could just convert what I have instead.

Thoughts?

Sniff... Sniff.... what did we do?

:(

Rob

:) :)

[Hilton Ralphs]

Sniff... Sniff.... what did we do?

Nah nothing. It's just that I bought a gift card which hasn't arrived yet and would like to use that now. I'll phone customer service and see if they can look up the number for me.

[Rob Lee]

Nah nothing. It's just that I bought a gift card which hasn't arrived yet and would like to use that now. I'll phone customer service and see if they can look up the number for me.

I can ask them to email it... don't waste your dime calling!

Cheers -

Rob

[Hilton Ralphs]

I can ask them to email it... don't waste your dime calling!

Thanks Rob. I called them before you posted this and I was told that because it is an analogue (physical) gift card, they can't get the number.



You might try just changing the rake and fleam on the first inch, or inch and a half.
That's a good idea Curtis, I may just do this with some other saws as well.



I've done what Chris mentions. With something like 11pt teeth, it's not too hard.
Thanks Joshua, it's one thing stuffing around with an old saw but doing this to a new $175 saw is something else.


My point is that once you get over the trepidation of putting a file to a saw, you open up a whole scope of possibilities.
Yes Mike, I just need to get over that hurdle. Thanks


Not hard. Personally, I would first joint the saw down a bit and then reset the rake where want it with no fleam. Then do a very light jointing and add the fleam. Good tips Chris, thanks.


You'll have to decide if 11 point crosscut is what you want - hopefully it is, because it'll be a lot more work to refile entirely new teeth into the saw.

I'm wondering if 11ppi is just a tad too aggressive for crosscuts.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

One of my most frequently used saws is my 11 point panel saw, I like it. Since most of those cuts are either going to be shot or hidden, it's good, and when I do use it for something like a shoulder, simply knifing the line first gets me the finish I need on the visible part. A lot of roughness, for me, seems to be in the set - I had a backsaw filed at 11 points at one point, and the filing was pretty much the same, but with the much finer set, I got a smoother finish off the backsaw.

If you're up to filing entirely new teeth, the teeth from an 11 point saw aren't too terrible to remove, but I'd imagine you'd go through at least a couple files putting new teeth into a new saw made of modern spring steel. At some point, it might be worth selling/trading the saw, but that might depend for you - you probably don't want to ship something overseas, and I don't know what you pay to get something in to S.A.

[Jim Matthews]

This is a perfect opportunity to test out the progressive rake filing method for rip cut saws.

11 TPI is at the coarse end for that method, but the teeth are large enough to see without magnification.
http://paulsellers.com/2013/06/saw-sharpening-video-my-micro-bevel-method-works-great/

There's no fleam angle to consider, just a subtle "rolling" of the file from the front (toe) to the back (heel) of the saw.
If it doesn't work for you, you can always go back and add fleam into the mix.

[Sean Hughto]

Why not sell the saw and buy the crosscut version from LN? Most LN tools sell for nearly the new price, especially if you are willing to ship outside the US. Just a thought.

[David Weaver]

This is the fairly famous saw that was shorter in plate height than LN described, isn't it?

I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with 11 points, it just depends on what you're cutting. To the extent that the saw isn't easy start, or it raps in wood, etc, you can always make changes within a range and keep it at 11 and not have to file in a whole bunch of smaller teeth. I have to admit I haven't seen a 16" saw that's got teeth smaller than about 12 points. I'm sure they exist, I just haven't seen them.

[Hilton Ralphs]

This is the fairly famous saw that was shorter in plate height than LN described, isn't it?
Indeed it is. It cuts beautifully though so nothing inherently wrong with it.


you can always make changes within a range and keep it at 11
So I could add a very relaxed rake and plenty of fleam for the first inch or so at the heel?

[Chris Griggs]

I wouldn't worry about the 11ppi Hilton. That will be nice for a large xcut backsaw. Just relax the rake to 15 degrees and put anywhere from 15-25 degrees of fleam in it. It will be totally fine. I have a panel saw that is 9ppi that I've made nice clean dado shoulder cuts with before. I really don't think the pitch will be an issue at all, and if you are going to use this mainly for xcuts at a bench hook it will be very nice for fast sawing. I wouldn't worry about modulating the rake and all that. It just adds one more piece to the equation and I don't think there is that much to be gained from it. Just put a nice standard xcut filing in it and I think you'll be happy.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks Chris. I obviously need to file down some of the teeth before I can relax the rake, confirm?

[Curtis Niedermier]

Joint the toothline with a couple passes of a file. You need to joint the entire line, so the teeth stay the same height. If you're only changing some of the teeth, you want to change the ones that you use to start the cut - usually at the toe, but maybe you like to start with the heel, I don't know.

To adjust the rake, just cheat the file on the teeth you want to relax by rotating it slightly, and apply a little more pressure to the cutting side of the tooth - but still very light pressure. Don't try to take it all in one swipe of the file. Lightly brush (you'll see fresh metal at the top of the tooth), file, then brush again. Also, you can probably accomplish adjusting rake and fleam in one shot if that's what you're after.

Then you'll need to file away the jointing on the remaining teeth while retaining the original rake. Some folks gradually adjust the rake over a few teeth, but that's probably not really necessary.

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks Chris. I obviously need to file down some of the teeth before I can relax the rake, confirm?

Yes. You don't want to joint them WAY down but you will want to get some visible flats going. Error on the side of too little though.

The amount you actually need to adjust the rake will impact how much metal you end up needing to remove. If the rake is currently 0-5 degrees and you go to 15 that is a relatively substantial change, if the rake they put in at the factory is more relaxed to begin with less filing needs to be done to get to 15. Better to go slow and remove too little at first. If you remove too much you will need to add set back into the teeth, which isn't a big deal, but its one more step.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Thanks Chris and Curtis. To avoid flogging a dead horse, I'll wrap up this topic.

I looked closely at the rake and it's not too bad actually, certainly not 0 degrees. I tried a crosscut one some 90cm x 90 cm Meranti and she cut through it like it was butter. The kerf was also pretty small and the breakout was not too much either so I'm pretty chuffed even before I try and add a bit of fleam.

To summarise, I'll be giving the new Veritas Tenon Saws a miss.

[Chris Griggs]

It wouldn't surprise me if it's filed at something like 10 degrees, keeping in mind that they are selling a thin plate saw to a lot of folks who have never sawed a tenon before. A relaxed rake would make life easier for a lot of newbs and probably minimize the number of kinked saws that LN gets sent back to them (and no that's not a criticism of the saw, I've used it and its fantastic...a real favorite). I did roughly measure the 15ppi rip carcass saw I had of theirs and it looked like was about 10...I actually ended up filing a more aggressive rake into that one.

Given what you found, I would just keep the rake where it is. My shop made sash is filed "hybrid" with 10 degree rake and 10 fleam and it xcuts fine. If you put more like 15-20 degrees of fleam in yours I bet it will be a great dedicated xcut. 11ppi is still not all that big of a tooth and with the thin plate there is even less resistance so relaxing the rake becomes less important...think of, for example, how easy it is to make little xcuts with a DT saw filed with 0-5 degrees of rake and no fleam...the small teeth and thin plate makes it pretty easy and smooth even though the filing is in theory totally wrong for xcutting.

[Hilton Ralphs]

Yeah thanks Chris, I'm very happy with the saw.