Alcohol Drying??

[Chuck Harris]

Ok I've read several threads with references to the alcohol drying technique. so what is this technique???

[John Carr]

Here ya go...
Dave Smith's article on Alcohol Soaking (http://www.woodcentral.com/cgi-bin/readarticle.pl?dir=turning&file=articles_473.shtml)

[Chris Rolke]

i have recently started to do this and it is amazing

follow along with the article and you are good to go

[Carole Valentine]

Chuck,
I use it. It works. I have also been messing with the boiling technique. I had some cherry that insisted on cracking. I rough turned it, boiled it for an hour, let it surface dry for 20 minutes or so then soaked it in DNA overnight. No cracks and only minute warping. Don't know exactly what the boiling does, but afterwards the cherry water looked and smelled good enough to drink!:D
One of the guys who lives in the Amazon uses boiling almost exclusively. After boiling he leaves them in the hot tropical sun for 3 days. Says 99% don't crack or severely warp.

[Dennis Peacock]

Yup, I've got about 35 roughed out bowls dried with the alchy method. Good bowl blank rate has increased for me by about 99%.!!!! :D

[Dennis Peacock]

Chuck,

As stated before, I use the alchy method. Here's a pic of my bowls wrapped and drying on my "drying" rack. That's only about 1/3 of the dried bowls I have done with this method so far. :rolleyes: :cool:

Just look at post #12 in this thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19166

[Cecil Arnold]

Carole, I understand that boiling somehow "relaxes" the tension in the wood grain and helps reduce the warping and in so doing also reduces cracking. However, the person who explained boiling to me said that you needed to let the blanks dry for up to 6 months in a grocery bag before finishing. That's why I really like the alcohol.

[Carole Valentine]

I combined boiling/alcohol. AFTER boiling soak in DNA, wrap, let dry until it reaches equilibrium...usually about 5 days depending on the thickness of the bowl. Best of both worlds...:)

[John Hart]

Chuck,
I use it. It works. I have also been messing with the boiling technique. I had some cherry that insisted on cracking. I rough turned it, boiled it for an hour, let it surface dry for 20 minutes or so then soaked it in DNA overnight. No cracks and only minute warping. Don't know exactly what the boiling does, but afterwards the cherry water looked and smelled good enough to drink!:D
One of the guys who lives in the Amazon uses boiling almost exclusively. After boiling he leaves them in the hot tropical sun for 3 days. Says 99% don't crack or severely warp.

I was talking to one of the guys at Berea Hardwoods about this subject and he said, "You should boil any wood that comes from a fruit tree". He said that the sugar in the wood causes all sorts of problems and boiling for 45 minutes "sets" the sugar. I haven't tried it yet but I'm gonna.

[Fred Ray]

I've been boiling for the last two years with pretty good results. Havn't tried alchy yet, But Carole's combo method sounds intriguing.

John: I'd never heard about the sugars issue, but I do know that the fruitwoods are about the worst for cracking and distortion. And. I do know that boiling helps the issue. BTW, I'm stuck in the office too. But since things are a little slow, I can catch up the woodworking forums.

[Keith Nielsen]

I have heard of yet another way to dry green wood. Its called Cedar Shield

I was wondering if anyone has used it and if the results are good or not.

Basicly is Cedar oil mixed with silicone based additives. You just soak the wood in it for 30 min. and then let it air dry to the touch. Apperently it make the wood 13% stronger than it would have been. and bonds the fibers together like glueing from the inside out. The wood won't loose it structual strenght and becomes impervious to water, Mold, and bugs.

Let me know if you have used it

Thanks
Keith

[John Hart]

Well Keith, you got my curiosity going. Here's the ad for Cedar Shield:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://www.cedarcide.com/Images/Products/8008.bmp</TD><TD vAlign=top>CedarShield


CedarShield "Chemical Free Wood Preservative and Drying Agent. This dynamic wood preservative can be used for treatment of all hard and soft wood species. Lumber, posts, fencing material and bamboo. No pressure treatment is required. Complete penetration in less than 30 minutes will eliminate all moisture in the wood and provide a decay, water and termite proof media that will last indefinitely. Simply submerse and soak in the CEDARSHIELD solution or apply with a brush, roller or airless paint gun. Helps restore and maintain the natural wood beauty, or if desired, can be painted or stained 72 hours after application. The unique patented silicone and cedar oil additives will eliminate the normal splitting, warping and dimensional control issues found with kiln dried building materials. No special fasteners are required. Nails and screws will stay secured in the wood. Cedarshield can be used on plywood, OSB and particle board. Safe around children and pets. Zero toxicity level. Hand and feet exposure permitted. Can be used to treat and seal CCA,ACQ and other chemically treated surfaces. Packaged in 1, 5, 55 and 275 gallon containers and bulk tanker delivery. Price: $39.95 Gallon. $149.75 Per 5 Pail. $1500.00 Per 55 Gallon Drum. $6995.00 Per 275 Gallon Tote. $139,995.00 Per 5680 Gallon Tanker Truck.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Blake McCully]

I just googled CedarShield and found this response. Looks like something worth exploring. When I get one of those "round tuits" I think I'll order some. I have some wanut logs that I can give it a try.

- REPRINT
CedarShield - Revival of an Old Drying Method
by Fred Holder / More Woodturning / May 2005
A post on the Wood Central Woodturning Message Board guided
me to the web site of CedarCide Industries, Inc, the makers of
CedarShield a Chemical-Free Wood Preservative and Drying Agent.
The web site had this to say about the product:
”This dynamic wood preservative can be used for treatment of all
hard and soft wood species. Lumber, posts, fencing material and
bamboo. No pressure treatment is required. Complete penetration in
less than 30 minutes will eliminate all moisture in the wood and
provide a decay, water and termite proof media that will last
indefinitely.
”Simply submerse and soak in the CedarShield solution or apply
with a brush, roller or airless paint gun. Helps restore and maintain
the natural wood beuty, or if desired, can be painted or stained 72
hours after application. The unique patented silicone and cedar oil
additives will eliminate the normal splitting, warping and dimensional
control issues found with kiln dried building materials”.
”No special fateners are required. Nails and screws will stay
secured in the wood. CedarShield can be used on plywood, OSB
and particle board. Safe around children and pets. Zero toxicity
level. Hand and feet exposure permitted. Can be used to treat and
seal CCA, ACQ and other chemically treated surfaces. Packaged in
1, 5, 55 and 275 gallon containers and bulk tanker delivery. Price:
$39.95 gallon. $149.75 Per 5 gallon pail. $1500.00 per 55 gallon
drum.”
Their web site address is: http://www.cedarcide.com/default/.asp.
I subsequently wrote to CedarCide via the e-mail capability
provided at their web site with a number of questions about their
product. I asked about treatment times for harder woods and
whether we could treat rough turned bowls with CedarShield. I also
asked if oil finishes such as Walnut Oil and other oil finishes on the
market would work on woods treated with CedarShield. I asked how
much a 12” rough turned bowl would use of the solution. Here is their
response.
” The creation of CedarShield is the resurection of a prior art wood
drying treatment used in the early to middle twentieth century. It was
abandoned in the late fifties with the introduction of the USA agency
FIFRA, and subsequently the EPA. The solvents and additives used
in the earlier treatment solutions were deemed number two inerts and
registration of the product was mandated when insect control claims
were made. The inventer, Mr. Ernest Reynolds of Carolina Chemical
Company in Bowling Green, Kentucky elected in 1957 to hang up his
shingle and retire in lieu of addressing the registration issues.
Production of the solution was discontinued at that time.”
”CedarCide Industries in concert with GT Products, a specialty
silicone manufacturer in Grapevine, Texas modified the original
formula of the early product using NEXT GENERATION ingredients
for their solvent based drying agent. The compounds used to
formulate the product are all FDA or GRAS list approved.
CedarShield, because of It’s compliance with FQPA (Food Quality
Protection Act of 96) is exempt from registration with the EPA. The
contents are simply explained as Cedar Oil, Highly refined White
Mineral oil and a Silicone additive that aids in the crosslinking of the
molecular make up of the solvent. When introduced to the wood
cellular, the solution enters the wood through it’s vascular system and
migrates through out the media. The displacement of the water with
the solvent and, subsequently, the drying of the hydrogen tails of the
hydroxyl group molecular chain, permanently prohibits the entry of
H2O into the wood structure. The final result is dimensional stability
with a further enhancement of the wood fiber from the transformation
of the woods resins to a waxy like substance that promotes internal
adhesion of the wood.
”In answer to your questions referencing treatment times, I
suggest the following. Hard Woods are quicker to treat than Soft
Woods because of the vascular system that is common to those
species. Green woods, because of the moisture expanded cell
structure, are easier to treat than kiln dried or air dried timber. The
migration of the solution throughout the media is not impeded by
collapsed hydrogen molecule tails found in dried wood, and the
exodus of the water simulates that of a vacuum as it evacuates the
wood, promoting the entry of the solution. In either green or dry
wood, a 30-minute submersion is adequate. Lengthier treatment
times may or may not provide any alternate results. Brush on
application is not recommended for total drying endeavors, however it
does have a positive result.
”It would appear to me that treatment of the wood prior to the
turning would be the better protocol. The dimensional stability and
the elasticity issues would have been addressed at that time.
Perhaps this is something that should be explored.
”I do not have any data on the penetration of the oils such as
Walnut, etc. We do know that the post-treatment wood accepts oil
based paints and stains but efficacy with the water based products is
marginal. I would suggest that like likes like and that any Natural Oil
would probably be compatible with the treatment. That is why we use
the Cedar Oil as a synergist in the CedarShield solution.”
”As to the usage, I believe you will find it to be minimal. I would
suggest perhaps 5% of the wood weight, providing a re-capture of the
drip off of solution is practiced.
”We are currently making no claims as to safety issues related to
the use of CedarShield for food disbursement products such as Salad
Bowls etc. We would anticipate no issues however each and every
subsequent treatment with another product could trigger or expose an
unknown result. We will take this under advisement with our
scientists and evaluate the concern at a later date.
”Sincerely
”Dave Glassel
CedarCide Industries, Inc.
”2123 Old Ox Road
”Spring, Texas 77386
”TEL: 1-800-842-1464
”dave@cedarcide.com”
I ordered a five gallon bucket of CedarShield to do some hands-on
testing. Talking with Dave Glassel and their Scientist Dr. Ben Oldag,
it appears that this product offers some excellent benefits for
woodturners who use wet wood for their turning. It appears that a 30
minute to one hour soak of the solid wood in the CedarShield solution
(solution should be about 100 degrees for best results) would enable
you to put the wood on the lathe and final turn it after 72 hours with
minimal warping and cracking. It also appears that most of the oil
base finishes would work fine as a finish on the turnings.
Initially, I didn’t work up a method to raise the temperature to 100
degrees, so my first testing has been done with the solution at about
70 degrees. I soaked four pieces of wood, two log sections of
recently cut apple wood and two pieces of boxwood that already had
a crack in it. I sawed off the ends of each piece of wood. I also
soaked the 3/8” slice that I cut off the end of one of the chunks of
apple wood. One side of it was coated with Anchorseal. It warped
badly and cracked on the Anchorseal side.
I gave each of the pieces of apple wood over 30 minutes in the
CedarShield solution. Actually, I waited until there seemed to be no
more activity around the wood. I then took it out of the solution and
suspended it above the bucket to drain. The boxwood was treated
for almost 24 hours. It has shown no signs of cracking after 72 hours.
After 24 hours, I sawed one of the pieces of apple wood in half
lengthwise as a test. The shop is maintained at about 70 degrees
and during the day it was getting up to almost 80 degrees. After 24
hours more, one of the half pieces was showing some small cracks. I
final turned it into a little bowl. The solution was not dry in the wood
yet. I should have waited the full 72 hours. This turned even better
than the untreated wet wood.
The solid piece was showing no sign of cracking after 48 hours. It
did show cracks after 72 hours.
The solution is oily but does not seem to cause any problems
when it gets on my hands. If one were allergic to cedar, I would
approach this product with great care.
In the short time that I had to conduct this preliminary test, I don’t
really have enough information to recommend that everyone run out
and buy a bucket of CedarShield. However, I felt the information on
this product was worth passing along. If any of you do try it please
feed back your findings so that we can publish them. This looks like
a product that can help woodturners get the best from their newly cut
timber.
They have not had their solution tested as food safe for using on
salad bowls. However, it has been tested and certified child safe so
that the treatment can be used on wood exposed to children. I would
suspect from that certification, we can assume it will be safe for salad
bowls. More on this product next month. It is time to go to the
printer.

[John Hart]

Wow Blake...that's pretty interesting. It looks like this stuff replaces the water with a solid and eliminates uneven shrinkage. If that's true, there's no need for extended drying periods, alcohol soak, or microwave methodology. I'm with you...I'm going to order some m'self and give it a go. The theory appears to be sound.

Thanks for the info!!

[Keith Nielsen]

Blake,

Thats more information than what I got and it does sound great!!! I'm going to get some for my deck to start and go from there to the lathe. I'm interested to see if a redwood deck will discolor once the cedar shield is applied to it. normally with other products the wood will gray over time because of water and sun. If it remains the wood color then it could replace trex altogether.

Thanks for the info.
Keith

[Carole Valentine]

At $40/gal I think I will stick to boiling and alcohol and let y'all do the experimenting with Cedar-whatever-it's-called.:D

[John Hart]

At $40/gal I think I will stick to boiling and alcohol and let y'all do the experimenting with Cedar-whatever-it's-called.:D

Yeah...I have to agree with you Carole...It's a bit expensive. In fact, despite my wealth, I'm going to have to wait a little while and sell off some stocks to get some!:D Actually, what I was thinking is that Alcohol gets water logged and becomes ineffective, whereas this cedar stuff can be recaptured and reused so it might actually be cheaper. We'll see...I'm willing to try it once and I'll give a full report....in the interest of science that is.:)

[John Hart]

Just as an update....I've decided not to buy this stuff. I received a "buyer beware" PM from a fellow Creeker so I decided to dig a little deeper on this Cedarshield solution. It really doesn't look like the level of success is any more than the alkie method or nuking in the microwave or even the traditional long-term-drying method. My overall feel is that cracks are going to occur in about 30% of the blanks and might have more to do with preparation of the blank than of the cedar stuff itself. Besides, one of the complaints is that it goops up your sandpaper.

So anyway, I'll just skip it for now.

[Dave Smith]

You got good information on DNA soaking from the good folks here. Boiling has been around for a long time and I have used the method myself with decent results. Boiling melts the lignum in the cells. When the wood cools the lignum hardens again. That is why wood is steamed for bending. As far as I know alcohol doesn't effect the lignum in the cells but I would not be surprised if it did soften it.

Alcohol and water are misabile which means that when they are put into the same container they will mix and create a uniform concentretion. This property is what causes alcohol to replace water in the wood. Both the free water and the cellular water will be diluted by alcohol. When wood is removed from the soaking solution the alcohol will migrate through the wood faster than water.

Boiling is not convienient for a few bowls turned over a weeks time. Alcohol soaking is more passive and easier to use. Once the bowl is wrapped there is nothing to do but wait and the wait is a not nearly as long as other methods of processing rough turned.

Good luck and feelfree to email me if you have more questions.

Dave Smith

Rain is warm, it must be summer in Longview, WA.

[Jack Savona]

Dave, what about the accumulating water content of the DNA? At what point do I add more DNA or do something to get rid of the accumulated water.


Jack

[John Hart]

Nice to hear from you Dave! Thought you fell off the planet.:eek: :D

[Dave Smith]

Ahh, the $64,000 question.
Hi Jack,

That is a conundrum. I have successfully soaked and dried wood with a solution as low as 34% alcohol. Lower alcohol concentration increases the drying time for a soaked piece. I try to keep the volume of solution small so I an add alcohol often to keep the alcohol concentration high. When I started collecting data to determine the validity of the process I wanted to keep the number of variables to a minimum. I knew there was going to be an optimum concentration of alcohol, soaking time, wall thickness, and things I haven't thought of for each spices of wood. In the end I settled on wall thickness and soaking time as the two parameters to vary. Then I tracked the drying time and made subjective observations of distortion and defects of dried pieces.

In conclusion I found that the process works. My intent was to find the edge of the envelope for minimum soaking and wall thickness that would result in a usable dried roughed out blank. Many people have altered the basic process with varying results then ask me why they are having a problem. In general I can't answer their question because I only have experience with a narrow set of parameters.

A SWAG for your question on alcohol concentration is 50% for the solution when beginning the soak.

Dave Smith

Probably said more than I know in Longview, WA.

[Jason Solodow]

My question is, is has anyone tired alcohol soaking or boiling fruitwoods or others in the form of short planks?

[John Hart]

I gave it a try Jason. I had some green pear that I wanted to make into a bandsaw box. I soaked it over night in IPA and then set it out to dry. To my surprise, it didn't move and it didn't crack. I still haven't done anything with the wood but they are all still flat. (They are 1/4" thick and various widths about 20" long)




My question is, is has anyone tired alcohol soaking or boiling fruitwoods or others in the form of short planks?

[Jason Solodow]

IPA? I thought we were talking about DNA? What is IPA? And, I'm thinking of thicker planks, like 1/2 to 1 inch.

[John Hart]

Sorry... IPA is 99% pure isoprophyl alcohol. Some folks don't like the way it smells but it does the same as DNA and I get it for free...that's why I use it. Smells fine for free!!:D

[Jason Solodow]

How the heck do you get it for free???

[John Hart]

I work at a BioChemical company and we have 10,000 gallon tanks of it. The company pays so little for it, they say, "just get some jugs and get it out of the spigot"

I don't know anything about chemistry or chemicals but the perks are pretty good.:)

[Chris Roessler]

I believe this is my first post here at the Creek in a LONG time... I just finished (this afternoon) cutting down and sectioning a large magnolia in my back yard I have anchor sealed the sections for now but I find the alcohol discussion very interesting; thanks for all the info on that subject. I have another question though.... What about microwave drying for the smallish blanks?