Freehand sharpening without hollow grind

[Prashun Patel]

My current method for sharpening is to grind a primary bevel using a honing guide on a Worksharp with a diamond wheel. I far prefer this to using a grinding wheel; I haven't been able to hollow grind consistently.

For the honing, I've been using waterstones with reasonable success. I'd LIKE to graduate to freehand honing. Is it possible on a flat grind, or do I really need to figure out how to do a proper hollowgrind first?

Would love to hear from those who have tried freehanding on a flat grind.

[Chris Griggs]

Sure you can. You might round it over a little over time but then you just refresh the flat grind.

The bigger issue is (unless you are working thin vintage irons or laminate irons) is just that working an entire flat of hardened steel is a lot of metal to remove (relative to a hollow) and it can take longer than is ideal to pull a burr.

My preference for free handing a flat grind on a non Japanese blade, is to just use the flat as a reference. Feel it click down and then just lift slight and honing a micro bevel. Its a small enough area that won't matter if you match it exactly each time...you'll still pull up a burr and polish to the edge. You'll get some up after a few honings but then you can just grind back to your flat primary. Its a very easy and surprisingly consistent method of free handing...it doesn't feel or sound all that precise but it work very well, as you quickly get very consistent in how much the little "lift" is.

[Jim Koepke]

I have been doing it for years.

Seems to work fine.

Thicker blades are the biggest problem on freshly flattened stones since they tend to have a stiction problem. This happens when two flat surfaces have water between them.

jtk

[David Weaver]

I've done it from time to time. You can grind a million different ways, but my favorite way to hone freehand is the same as I've seen on a lot of vintage irons. Use a very coarse stone to establish a shallower primary and then hone a microbevel by hand (just by feel).

A new crystolon stone is my favorite thing to hand grind on. It has a better feel than diamonds, but it's fast and friable. Older crystolon stones have hardened over time.

[george wilson]

Prashun: You can grind beautifully consistent hollow grinds by pulling the tool rest out. Put a C clamp on the chisel to rest against the front edge of the tool rest, Adjust the tool rest and/or clamp until the chisel rests against the wheel to produce the angle you want. Slide the chisel back and forth with the C clamp against the front of the tool rest. keep the chisel pointing straight forwards(NO WIGGLING) as you slide it. That is,move it parallel as you slide it sideways. This will make a beautiful hollow grind. I've been doing it this way for many years. I do this on a regular bench grinder,an old flat face Craftsman I bought about 1964. It has 2 piece tool rests I call "double jointed". I like them because I can extend them far out from the wheels. You can make up for having 1 piece tool rests by adjusting the C clamp,I SUPPOSE.

This same tactic also works beautifully for gouges. Just roll the gouge as you grind,quench,and grind again,same as the chisels,except for rolling the gouge.

Long ago,I got to where I just use my finger as the stop,keeping from removing the finger while quenching,until the grinding is done. The C clamp method is more sure if you are new at this,though.

[Warren Mickley]

Prashun, I was trained to do freehand sharpening in 1962. I do turning tools, carving tools, chisels, plane irons, etc with full flat bevel. I have plane irons that were used up to the cap iron hole from new and never saw a grinder. I do use a grindstone for used tools in poor shape, scissors, axes, etc.

In the 18th century some guys did their rough sharpening on a sandstone wheel, some on flat sandstone.
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[David Weaver]

Warren, a foot operated sandstone grind stone? Or do you mean something like a crystolon stone? Are most of your tools laminated? I was hassling someone on here the other day about how much better a vintage washita (and natural stones in general) will stay refreshed if an iron or chisel is made of a combination of hard and soft metals (the soft metals pull particles off of a novaculite stone), but othat's not always something I want if I have a stone settled in (I found that out after a set of japanese chisels really woke up an old pike washita, one that I had carefully broken in). I've noticed the same thing on japanese natural stones - stones too hard to release particles with razors will suddenly let them go once a laminated tool is introduced.

Have you seen many older irons with a very long primary and a hand done secondary? Most of my *good* wooden planes (the ones that were put away and don't appear to have been picked up by a hack) are that way, and I'd guess if I had to that it was to make sharpening sessions that occurred during the work hours as short as possible.

[Harold Burrell]

Prashun, I was trained to do freehand sharpening in 1962.

In 1962, I was trained to use the potty. ;)

[Harold Burrell]

Prashun: You can grind beautifully consistent hollow grinds by pulling the tool rest out. Put a C clamp on the chisel to rest against the front edge of the tool rest, Adjust the tool rest and/or clamp until the chisel rests against the wheel to produce the angle you want. Slide the chisel back and forth with the C clamp against the front of the tool rest. keep the chisel pointing straight forwards(NO WIGGLING) as you slide it. That is,move it parallel as you slide it sideways. This will make a beautiful hollow grind. I've been doing it this way for many years. I do this on a regular bench grinder,an old flat face Craftsman I bought about 1964. It has 2 piece tool rests I call "double jointed". I like them because I can extend them far out from the wheels. You can make up for having 1 piece tool rests by adjusting the C clamp,I SUPPOSE.

This same tactic also works beautifully for gouges. Just roll the gouge as you grind,quench,and grind again,same as the chisels,except for rolling the gouge.

Long ago,I got to where I just use my finger as the stop,keeping from removing the finger while quenching,until the grinding is done. The C clamp method is more sure if you are new at this,though.

George, I would LOVE to see some kind of video of this. (You're one of my heroes, by the way. :o I want to be just like you when I grow up.)

[Warren Mickley]

David, I wanted to encourage Prashun that freehand sharpening without hollow was a viable option. I think this is the mode of many Japanese woodworkers also. Here are answers to your questions. I have a pedal sandstone wheel, about 21 inches, but I do not use it on woodworking tools that have already been brought into service. I understand that some Japanese tools have very hard slag or silica inclusions in the soft layer which tend to abrade a stone. In some cases this is desirable.

It has been a long time since I used secondary bevels. I would not put any stock in how an antique tool was sharpened. The dark ages of woodworking lasted well over a century. When I was young I would ask old men how things were done and some would tell me how their grandfathers worked. By and large this was not very helpful. More helpful was reading old texts and looking at old furniture.

Warren

[Steve Voigt]

It has been a long time since I used secondary bevels. I would not put any stock in how an antique tool was sharpened. The dark ages of woodworking lasted well over a century. When I was young I would ask old men how things were done and some would tell me how their grandfathers worked. By and large this was not very helpful. More helpful was reading old texts and looking at old furniture.

Warren

That's a good point that I haven't really thought about before. My old man was born in '30, his parents around 1900. I'm guessing you would have to go back at least 2, maybe 3 generations before that. Joel Moskowitz has talked about how by the 3rd quarter of the 19th c., nearly all furniture in the U.S. was made in factories. So when you see a saw or plane iron that hasn't been sharpened in 100 years, that's still several generations after the time when someone likely would have done serious furniture building with those tools.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

As others have stated, it is common practice to hone Japanese chisels freehand on a flat bevel face. Theoretically, this is not, however, the same as honing a Western chisel. The Japanese chisel is laminated steel and the softer backing wears rapidly, which makes honing a full bevel face less effort than one that is non-laminated steel. I would argue, however, that in practice there is not a lot of difference in the two chisel types. In other words, it is a viable method. As Warren reports, this is what he has done for many years.

Honing a full bevel face is not as efficient as a hollow grind - much in the same way that lapping or polishing the back of a Japanese chisel is hollowed for less surface area. The alternative to hollow grinding (which is my preferred method) is to add a secondary micro bevel - just lift the chisel up a few degrees and polish a tiny bevel. Personally I do not like secondary bevels on chisels as they make it less predictable when using the chisel bevel down.

I do believe that you will likely to save yourself a load of frustration in the long run by purchasing a grinder and honing freehand on a hollow. The hollow is self-jigging, and makes sharpening a very rapid and predictable process. Is the full face hone stronger? In theory, but in practice I doubt you could measure it (having worked with Japanese chisels that were both full face and hollow ground).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Honing a full bevel face is not as efficient as a hollow grind

Having a hollow grind does help in "feeling the click" when free hand sharpening. The problem is not everyone has a grinder to produce a hollow grind.

Yes, Honing a full bevel face takes a little longer than touching up a hollow ground bevel.

All in all though we end up working with what we have and making what we have work.

jtk

[Graham Haydon]

Hello Prashun

To the best of my knowledge, back in the day, a hollow grind was used, but not to reference in the way described so far (there is absolutely nothing wrong with the way described so far)

For general purpose chisels and thick bladed BD planes I have a low grind of about 25deg. I maintain this primary bevel on most of them using a honing guide and a coarse India. The blades that are too thick I use a powered grinder.

This flat bevel gives a nice foundation for making a secondary bevel. Register your flat bevel on the stone and then lift it slightly by 5ish degrees. This focuses the fine honing stone on a small area, move it up and down the stone holding it level, a burr will be quickly raised and then removed. When the secondary bevel gets too big to raise a burr quickly reduce it leaving only a hint of it after grinding.

Warning! These videos are crap, I just did them illustrate to another chap a little while ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rREhe4S47g

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mYiKcEWoNg

Other options are available!

[Prashun Patel]

Thanks for all the information.

I do use a microbevel right now, because my jig supports it.

I think I need to invest more time in trying to hollow grind before I abandon it. A couple of you have reiterated how well that system works. I've been shown how to do it (thanks, Wilbur Pan) on a Tormek, but never on a dry grinder. Perhaps it doesn't help that my grinder is 6"?

[Chris Griggs]

Thanks for all the information.

I do use a microbevel right now, because my jig supports it.

I think I need to invest more time in trying to hollow grind before I abandon it. A couple of you have reiterated how well that system works. I've been shown how to do it (thanks, Wilbur Pan) on a Tormek, but never on a dry grinder. Perhaps it doesn't help that my grinder is 6"?

Dude, 6" dry grinders rock. You don't need anything else. You're not all the far from me. I will show you sometime if you want. Its super easy.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Prashun

Nothing wrong with a 6" grinder. Some prefer that the smaller 6" wheels provide a deeper hollow (than the larger 8" wheels), which does not require renewing as frequently. I used a 6" grinder for many years and only changed to an 8" as it was half-speed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The only thing I have to add outside of the excellent advice you've already gotten, is that I often like to sharpen with the stone parallel to the benchtop - the long dimension of the stone running side to side rather than front to back. Getting a good height work surface is key, and I put the blade on the stone with a bit of a skew, and lock my arms against my side and use my arms only to hold the angle, and get my motion from my hips. It looks like you're doing a silly dance, but who cares? I run the blade in figure-eight motions and circles, trying to use the whole surface of the stone. I get quite good results like this. If you try and move the blade across the stone with your arms, it can be a little difficult to maintain the same angle as you pull back and forth, particularly if the height of your work surface isn't ideal. I don't know if this makes sense? Robert Lang showed something similar to this a couple of times, I'll have to see if I can find it.