Bandsaw Decision help needed. How about this approach?

[Gary Howorka]

I am in need of a bandsaw and have done all the typical searching.Weight is often brought up as a measure of the quality and seeing the huge number of saws available and their comparative features I thought why not just look at $’s per pound. After all Steel/Cast Iron prices are normalized around the world so things should be close. Anyway for my short list here are the results….

Laguna LT18 3000 $2,195, 525 lbs, $4.18 per lb.
Hammer N4400 $2,495, 374 lbs, $6.67 per lb.
MiniMax MM16 $2,900, 530 lbs, $5.47 per lb.
Grizzly G0636XB $2,699, 620 lbs, $4.34 per lb.
Grizzly G0514X2B $1,595, 427 lbs, $3.73 per lb.
Powermatic PM1500 $2,899 394 lbs, $7.35 per lb.

It’s an interesting way to boil it all down. LOL
Features on all these saws are pretty comparable. Grizzly and Laguna represent the best value. They also come out as top saws in most of the magazine write-ups. To be fair they never include the Italian made saws in those. However, it appears that in Europe cast iron and steel are much more expensive. However, I am betting what your really paying for is the high value added taxation that the European Union levies on products.

Finally, Powermatic, true to form, completely marks up their product way above everyone else.Now I know I am going to get pummeled for this but let me know your thoughts!ThxGary

[Charles Coolidge]

Grizzly G0701 19" Ultimate Bandsaw $3,095 717 lbs, $4.31 per lb.

[Frank Trinkle]

Weight per pound doesn't make a lot of sense for making a final choice. It's somewhat arbitrary and doesn't figure in quality, engineering, or fit and finish.

Here's a couple of considerations for you...

Laguna 3000 series Bandsaws are made in Taiwan
Hammer Saws are made in Europe ++
MiniMax - Unknown manufacturing location. (Possibly Europe)
Grizzly's and Powermatic made in Taiwan and/or China.

I own the Laguna Italian LT20 and it is a VERY well built machine. Made by ACM in Italy, a well-known company that specializes in Bandsaws. Expensive, but well worth it in the long run.
I also own a Laguna 14X14SUV 14" Bandsaw that was made in Taiwan. Perfectly fine, but not on the same level as the Italian models. Also...ALL Laguna bandsaws come with their exceptional ceramic blade guides. Many owners of other company's bandsaws retrofit their saws with the Laguna Guides.
I used to own a Grizzly GO514X2 Extreme until last summer. It worked well enough, but over time, the powdercoat paint was peeling and beginning to rust underneath. The key lock orifice also started rusting and made using a key very troubling, and the mobile base that Grizzly sold for the saw was terrible! The steel was rusting badly and the casters were deteriorating to the point of collapse.

If you end up with the Laguna...or for that matter any of the listed saws, another somewhat pricey, but well worth the investment is Laguna's Driftmaster fence system that can be retrofitted to any saw. It does not have a Peer!

Finally, check the maximum resaw height of each of the mentioned saws. There is a wide difference, and you need to determine what your needs are beyond price.

Good luck with your decision.:D

Frank

[David Kumm]

Asian machines are often heavier when compared to Euro. Design of frame and neck are important and weight may or may not be critical depending on engineering. You also need to look at whether the wheels are solid or spoked and the size of the table to factor that weight as it adds no strength. If companies advertized the frame deflection it would tell you more.

Minimax is made by Centauro and still primarily Italian. Hammer are assembled in Austria. Parts can be from elsewhere. If you are looking for ability to tension, there is one clear winner in your group. Dave

[Erik Loza]

All Minimax bandsaws are 100% manufactured in Italy on either the Minimax or the Centauro production lines. Motors are Italian (CEG or Motek), switches are German or American (AEG or Eaton). MM-series guides are American-made (Carter).

For obvious reason, I am not going to wade into this discussion except to say in that in my 10 years of selling bandsaws, I have never heard one owner say that they bought too much bandsaw. On the other hand, I have heard many a story of disappointment about what this or that machine was "promised to be able to do" (particularly in regards to resawing...). In other words, I suggest to all prospective owners to do your homework diligently because once you buy it, you're stuck with it for better or for worse.

Hope this helps and best of luck with your research.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Von Bickley]

I think I've heard it all now. I have never bought a tool based on dollars per pound.

I guess I'm just an old geezer.....

[mreza Salav]

Read the last sentence Dave said. There is one in your group that is a different class from the rest and the only one Made in Italy as far as I know.

[David Kumm]

The mm 16 is going up in price the first of the year, don't know about the others. Dave

[Gary Howorka]

I would never dispute that the MM16 is the king of the class and made in Italy. I have to admit this post was done quite a bit "tongue in cheek".

[Phil Thien]

However, I am betting what your really paying for is the high value added taxation that the European Union levies on products.


Probably not, I imagine most of those taxes are wiped-out for exported items.

High (relatively) cost of labor, yes. High cost of environmental controls, yes. But doubtful any VAT in there.

[Erik Loza]

There's no VAT or (in my experience) "excessive" taxes on EU machinery. At least not on ours. It is just plain-and-simple costly to manufacture equipment there. This is why one well-known Italian BS mfr. went out of business and why another dealer here in the US who used to sell primarily ACM machines has moved away from those and toward non-EU and toward Asian-built machines: Italian bandsaws are expensive.

I can tell you that there have not been a lot of increases in the cost of manufacturing or in the cost of logistics over the last five years. At least not for us. The price increase which Dave mentioned is purely because of the competitive landscape. If Lexus made a new sedan, Acura is not going to make a similar model and sell it for only 3/4 the price. They're going to price it the same. If anyone has any questions, please PM me offline.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Gus Dundon]

I like the MM16' features, if it's something you really need, go get it. .

[glenn bradley]

Price per pound!?! You have been thinking about this way too long. Go get a saw ;-)

[johnny means]

But really, statistically speaking, wouldn't their be some correlation between weight and actual quality? Surely, on average a heavier saw is better built machine. Now assumimg that generalization would bear true in a larger sample size, couldn't we assume that, on average a lower cost per lb. Actually, would represent a better value. Of course, I'm talking about averages here, like men being larger than women, not true in every case, but true enough to call for seperate basketball teams.

[Jeff Duncan]

But really, statistically speaking, wouldn't their be some correlation between weight and actual quality? Surely, on average a heavier saw is better built machine. Now assumimg that generalization would bear true in a larger sample size, couldn't we assume that, on average a lower cost per lb. Actually, would represent a better value. Of course, I'm talking about averages here, like men being larger than women, not true in every case, but true enough to call for seperate basketball teams.

I know this thread was started as more tongue and cheek, but I also would never rate or buy a machine looking at it that way. What I want to know is what the quality of the machine is. Grizzly makes a 7-1/2 hp shaper that weighs a bit more than my Martin 7-1/2 hp shaper. I don't think I need to explain why the Grizzly is not in the same class, never mind it being a better machine;) Weight just means there's more cast iron, which in general is a good thing. It doesn't tell you the quality of the engineering or quality of bearings, motor, and other electricals. So while I can't say with any certainty there couldn't be some tiny bit of correlation, my experience is weight does not necessarily equate to quality. What would be great is if we could get a record of machine longevity like they do with cars. That would be a far more useful tool in determining the value of a given machine.

Value is tricky as it's different for different people. For me the best value is buying a used industrial machine. I'm getting a well made piece of equipment that will run all day every day for less than what a new consumer grade machine would cost. For someone just doing small projects on the weekends there probably wouldn't be the same value to buy something as large. So for Gary the best value" would likely be finding a machine capable of doing everything he needs for the best price;)

JeffD

[Rod Sheridan]

But really, statistically speaking, wouldn't their be some correlation between weight and actual quality? Surely, on average a heavier saw is better built machine. Now assumimg that generalization would bear true in a larger sample size, couldn't we assume that, on average a lower cost per lb. Actually, would represent a better value. Of course, I'm talking about averages here, like men being larger than women, not true in every case, but true enough to call for seperate basketball teams.

A poorly designed heavy saw is a poorly designed heavy saw.

A well designed lighter saw is a well designed saw.

Weight is meaningless as a heavy cast iron saw may not be able to tension a blade properly while a lighter, better designed welded steel saw may.

Regards, Rod.

[David Kumm]

The devil is always in the details. It is not totally off base to use weight as one of many indications of relative build strength. A bandsaw is about as simple a machine as you can have so weight as an indication is different than if judging a planer for instance. Weight in the frame and wheels will almost always be a good thing. Design can overcome that but if you buy Asian, you generally need to depend on weight more because design is often just a copy of another machine. An expensive machine is more likely to substitute engineering for materials. With a bandsaw it is also about the absorbtion of vibration, hence the heavy cast iron wheels. A heavy but poorly built saw will just walk around the room so you need to exercise judgement. If you are comparing two saws made at the same factory in Taiwan and one weighs more than the other and costs a little more, weight and price might both be an indication. If you are comparing ACM to MM and the resaw heights are the same, it still might be valid. Case by case. Dave

[Mike Shields]

It’s an interesting way to boil it all down. LOL



I got it (some didn't), and enjoyed the laugh.

Kinda like when cars/sport bikes etc are compared by horsepower to price. It doesn't really mean anything in the bigger scheme, but just a different way to look at it.

[george newbury]

<snip>
Powermatic PM1500 $2,899 394 lbs, $7.35 per lb.

It’s an interesting way to boil it all down. LOL
Features on all these saws are pretty comparable. Grizzly and Laguna represent the best value. They also come out as top saws in most of the magazine write-ups. To be fair they never include the Italian made saws in those. However, it appears that in Europe cast iron and steel are much more expensive. However, I am betting what your really paying for is the high value added taxation that the European Union levies on products.

Finally, Powermatic, true to form, completely marks up their product way above everyone else.Now I know I am going to get pummeled for this but let me know your thoughts!ThxGary


My thoughts:

If you are doing price/pound it seems you are trying to save $$$.

Buy used.

277897

Powermatic model 81 Band Saw

Weight about 850 to 900 lbs
Cost $0 (School GAVE it to me http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?188861-Where-to-buy-used-equipment&p=2157806&highlight=#post2157806 )

Now I need to get an RPC for it and 5 other machines so lets say the cost of the RPC for it is about $150.

So I'd put the cost at about 16 cents per lb.

Now IF I had actually bought one I doubt it would have been over $500, so still less than $1/lb..

As of this writing there is a sweet looking Grizzly G0514 (19") Bandsaw on auction.
It's in Hickory, NC being sold by IRS auctions and it ends on 1/6/14. Current price $400 bu I would expect it MIGHT go to $1000.

If your like me and trying to spread a limited supply of $$ over an unlimited supply of tools good used is a way to go.

Of course if you need that new bandsaw smell and warranty buy new.

[Charlie Kocourek]

There are a lot of great bandsaws out there and I don't know enough about the others you mentioned to offer an educated opinion. I've had the MM16 for several years now. A friend of mine who runs a full time shop has the exact same saw. I can tell you that it is a Beast! I can't imagine a better saw for resaw work and it never, ever bogs down. It is not perfect. Blade changes could be easier, especially if you are going to a different size blade like from a 1/2" to a 3/4", but I have never regretted buying it.

Good luck with your decision!
Charlie

[Michael Dunn]

Weight per pound doesn't make a lot of sense for making a final choice. It's somewhat arbitrary and doesn't figure in quality, engineering, or fit and finish. Here's a couple of considerations for you... Laguna 3000 series Bandsaws are made in Taiwan Hammer Saws are made in Europe ++ MiniMax - Unknown manufacturing location. (Possibly Europe) Grizzly's and Powermatic made in Taiwan and/or China. I own the Laguna Italian LT20 and it is a VERY well built machine. Made by ACM in Italy, a well-known company that specializes in Bandsaws. Expensive, but well worth it in the long run. I also own a Laguna 14X14SUV 14" Bandsaw that was made in Taiwan. Perfectly fine, but not on the same level as the Italian models. Also...ALL Laguna bandsaws come with their exceptional ceramic blade guides. Many owners of other company's bandsaws retrofit their saws with the Laguna Guides. I used to own a Grizzly GO514X2 Extreme until last summer. It worked well enough, but over time, the powdercoat paint was peeling and beginning to rust underneath. The key lock orifice also started rusting and made using a key very troubling, and the mobile base that Grizzly sold for the saw was terrible! The steel was rusting badly and the casters were deteriorating to the point of collapse. If you end up with the Laguna...or for that matter any of the listed saws, another somewhat pricey, but well worth the investment is Laguna's Driftmaster fence system that can be retrofitted to any saw. It does not have a Peer! Finally, check the maximum resaw height of each of the mentioned saws. There is a wide difference, and you need to determine what your needs are beyond price. Good luck with your decision.:D Frank

Off topic a bit...

LOVE YOUR SIGNATURE!!! Very true!!!

[guy knight]

having looked at most of the bandsaws out there grizz pm jet shopfox laguna and having owned a 18 rikon i upgraded to a mm20 then i got a laguna 14" suv and love it the mm is the top in my experience with the laguna 14" top in its size category the grizz doesnt come close to touching these machines

[Craig Behnke]

i'd go with the minimax, even with it's obvious and too numerous to mention shortcomings versus the other high quality, precision tools, you'll feel good about paying the higher price because you're helping those backward europeans invest in technological advances to their manufacturing base so they can one day, hopefully, catch up to the skill, precision and manufacturing superiority of the taiwanese and chinese factories...actually with all of the precision equipment and skilled operators, they're more like surgical operating rooms. that's my 2 cents.

how come you give your 2 cents but only get a penny for your thoughts. somebody is making a penny on all those transactions....i want to know who is making that money.


p.s. if you take all the above seriously, I have a bridge to sell you, it's in Brooklyn.

[Steve Rozmiarek]

My thoughts:

If you are doing price/pound it seems you are trying to save $$$.

Buy used.

277897

Powermatic model 81 Band Saw

Weight about 850 to 900 lbs
Cost $0 (School GAVE it to me http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?188861-Where-to-buy-used-equipment&p=2157806&highlight=#post2157806 )

Now I need to get an RPC for it and 5 other machines so lets say the cost of the RPC for it is about $150.

So I'd put the cost at about 16 cents per lb.

Now IF I had actually bought one I doubt it would have been over $500, so still less than $1/lb..

As of this writing there is a sweet looking Grizzly G0514 (19") Bandsaw on auction.
It's in Hickory, NC being sold by IRS auctions and it ends on 1/6/14. Current price $400 bu I would expect it MIGHT go to $1000.

If your like me and trying to spread a limited supply of $$ over an unlimited supply of tools good used is a way to go.

Of course if you need that new bandsaw smell and warranty buy new.

My 36" Oliver is under $1/pound too, including the Tannewitz guides, Trimaster, Driftmaster and the cost of the 12 hour road trip! Another reason to love that thing!

[Leigh Betsch]

Hybrid, MM20 for the basic saw. Then add Laguna Driftmaster fence and guides, add on a Wixey and now you have a saw! I like the sturdiness of the MM but hated the fence and the guides. I like the innovation of the Laguna fence and ceramic guides.