Digging up Bedrock Junk

[David Weaver]

Ran home (that being where I grew up) recently and picked through one of my two favorite places to junk. I guess they're my favorites because they often have stuff cheap that isn't junk.

In one of the places (the Black Rose, in Hanover, PA - a typical antique mall with booths), there's a guy who seems to dig up planes left and right and he sells them for cheap. I'm not really looking for anything, but it's quick to get there when I'm in the area.

This year, there was a bedrock 604 1/2 for $30. Of course, there's a catch. I don't know much about planes that have collectible value, but apparently, the 604 1/2 is one.

What's the catch? I don't know if the lever cap is original, the tote's a repaired replacement, and it looks like someone literally took an apple bite out of the back of the casting - it's as if it was chipped away to make it more uniform. I don't have lots of love for 4 1/2s compared to 4s (i've had a half dozen of them in the past, including an LN, but cast them all off), but $30 is tinker price.

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The 6 in the background is one that i got out of the booth for $15 last year. There were 4 good #7s there last year for $20 each, but i don't need 7's, so i left them go and then went back the next day after deciding 4 people here probably would've liked them for $20+shipping, but the guy who has the booth was actually there and said a dealer cleaned them out just before I got there.

Also picked up another stone (yeah, who'd have guessed). There's some guy on ebay selling stones out of hot springs, AR, some of them are a little different. This one's a translucent that's got a little bit of color. After getting the stone out of the box, knowing that a pocket black/gray translucent was also included, the seller also threw in a colorful soft stone free. Haven't had a chance to use these with oil yet, but the seller had an interesting note that said that he recommends using all of his stones only with plain water. Different strokes for different folks (the more colorful of the two is the soft). It'll be interesting to see how this stone works out because it's specific gravity is just above the line of true hard - 2.6, and I have some stones that are closer to 3. They are all about the same when the dust settles if you don't lap them, though.

No clue what the significance of the box is, but it says "BUCK" on it and the 4x2" stone fits right in the section in the front of it. Maybe it had a set of something in it and the holder in the front is intended to hold a sharpening stone for whatever it was. Buck does market some oilstones, though, and a lot of their softs look like this soft.

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It's not really cheap to buy oilstones, though these 3 together didn't cost too much, but I have gained a new appreciation with stanley stock irons with oilstones. They work extremely well with them, and you get a sense that once you've used the two together long enough, that as a pair, both the stone and the irons are just as they should be. I've eliminated modern irons for the most part, and have some left in my pile that I need to dump.

[Frederick Skelly]

Congrats. Sounds like it was definitely worth the trip! And we all know you love your sharpening stones. ; )

Is it possible that the old iron and oilstone work so well together simply because they were from the same era? For example, could Stanley have reasonably expected that most customers would use oilstones, and somehow optimized the alloy to work best with them? (I have no idea - am speculating.)

Enjoy!
Fred

[David Weaver]

I think it's probable that the hardness level for most of the vintage US tools were what they are because they needed to work well with oilstones. I'd say in the grand scheme, I haven't spent any more time sharpening with the vintage irons than I did with the new irons and waterstones or diamonds. I do have to sharpen a little earlier, but there is no equivalent single-stone method that works on modern irons like vintage irons work with a single lilywhite washita.

A long time ago, warren said something like "choosing the stone that the steel was designed for", and I figured at the time because the shapton makes the iron sharper than the oilstones, that oilstones were a waste of time. The shapton 15k does make the stanley irons slightly keener than a good hone and strop process does with oilstones, but for subtle reasons, I guess, using oilstones with them seems to be a lot more satisfying - and with a little more control. Shaptons just cut and cut, but oilstones give you a little more control over what they do.

[Steve Voigt]

Nice score.
How do you determine the specific gravity of the stone?

[David Weaver]

Calculate the volume of the stone, figure out what an equivalent volume of water would weigh. Then weight the stone. The ratio of the weight over the weight of what the water would be gives you the specific gravity.

Oilstones reside in a fairly narrow range of specific gravity, probably the bulk are between 2.3 and 2.8.

I don't know how much oil a stone will absorb, so I always check them while they're freshly cut and not yet oiled. This one was freshly cut.

[Steve Voigt]

Calculate the volume of the stone, figure out what an equivalent volume of water would weigh. Then weight the stone. The ratio of the weight over the weight of what the water would be gives you the specific gravity.


Thanks. Yet another reason I really need to get a small, accurate scale.
So, is there a direct relationship between the fineness of a stone and its SG?

[David Weaver]

This is my opinion about oilstones, I have no proof.

Dan's says that the oilstones are all made up of particles of the same size (generally). Also, from separate experience, you can make a stone with small particles but a really hard binder cut like a stone that has bigger particles just by scuffing the surface.

The denser a stone is, the less space it has between particles, so even a cleanly prepared (but not lapped) very dense stone cuts really finely. I never measured the dans stone I had, but I suspect it was dense.

I measured a norton black, it was just over 2.6 and it was less fine, and a black translucent from "natural whetstone" that was coarse at first, but at 2.9 SG has turned out to be finer than most of my stones (naturalwhetstone's saw seems to leave their stones with a fairly coarse surface that has to be worked dull).

So, I guess, the answer is that yes, I think the stones with higher specific gravity have better potential to cut really finely. It doesn't so much matter with tools, though, unless you want to have a stone you can agitate with a diamond hone now and then and still get it to cut finely.

I'd say the dan's trans are the finest stones I've seen, the NW black trans are also fine (but expensive), and the new norton stones I've gotten and seen recently are my least favorites - though I like norton's new black stones better than their trans stones. Their trans stones are inexpensive if you get the right sizes, but other than that, I don't like them a whole lot, and I've had 3 and still have one in a tri hone. From a practical standpoint, their translucence is less than other stones (I'd guess they're a little less dense than a comparable dans trans or black stone) and the translucent nortons especially don't seem to make an edge that's too impressive as far as translucents go, and look different than the vintage norton trans (I haven't gotten a hold of a vintage norton "hard" stone - which is the term they used to use for their trans and black stones, but they don't look the same in pictures - they look more like the current dans stones look).

So, that's pretty much just about density in the 2.6-2.9 range, but without a doubt in a broader sense, a 2.3 SG soft stone will cut less fine than a 2.8 SG hard stone, no matter how long the soft stone is used, unless it's a pike (lilywhite, no. 1, ...) washita, it will not ever get to the same level of sharpness. A real washita is an interesting stone, because they will get to the shaving sharpness if you leave them alone and never lap them.

[Chris Griggs]

I somehow missed this thread when you posted it. Nice to see your new toys Dave.

Have you had a chance to use the new stone? If so, how's it seem.

How you liking the 604 1/2?

I know the 6 wasn't the point of the post but I can't believe you got that 6 for $15...sweet deal.

[David Weaver]

The smoother is heavy!! All of the bones of it are in good shape, and it took very little lapping to get it dead perfect on the bottom.

The stone is still pretty aggressive - i'm sure the surface is pretty scuffed up from being lapped or cut, we'll see where it ends up. At the price, to get any 2x8 trans for $90 is cheap these days, to get one multicolored and get two other stones and a box with it is pretty cool when you're a stone fanatic.

Norton's 2x8 hard is about $160, and this one has potential to be better than the norton trans that I have.

[Chris Griggs]

Yeah, the smoother looks good. when you first told me about it I assumed it was a junker, but the bite out of it isn't THAT bad and it otherwise looks to be in great shape.

Be interesting to see where that stone wears into. Is a neat looking stone.

This thread makes me want to measure the specific gravity of my Halls black.

[David Weaver]

I know the 6 wasn't the point of the post but I can't believe you got that 6 for $15...sweet deal.

One of the 7s that was there that day was a near perfect edwin hahn #7 sized jointer (along with three nice older type 7s - $20 each for everything, including the hahn). It was pure stupidity for me to leave those planes there thinking that someone else would get them and enjoy them as users, because a dealer came by and cleaned out the booth before the next morning - at least that's what the guy said. It doesn't pay to be fair and leave deals sitting around, the dealers who frequent the malls and sales never let them sit for long.

I did get a nice stanley 98 mortise gauge that day for $10 - there were 4 of them in the booth in almost new condition. Pickings were slimmer this last time, but it probably depends on when the guy comes in and dumps stuff off in the booth.

[Jim Koepke]

It was pure stupidity for me to leave those planes there thinking that someone else would get them and enjoy them as users

But what are you going to do?

I have tried buying some deals and then finding users, but then too many planes start sitting on the shelf waiting for a home.

My current #7 user started out that way. Ended up liking it so my other #7 was sold.

Of course, if "a deal too good to pass up" comes along I would likely do it again.

Heck I would have likely jumped on the #604-1/2 & #6 deal.

jtk

[David Weaver]

277991More from my favorite junk spot.

Not a great picture from the phone, but a nice MF 9c for very cheap. It'll clean up nicely and be a nice stock smoother.

[Chris Griggs]

277991More from my favorite junk spot.

Not a great picture from the phone, but a nice MF 9c for very cheap. It'll clean up nicely and be a nice stock smoother.


Nice buy on the Type 1!!! Looks be be in great condition.

[David Weaver]

I was curious to see if anyone else would notice it's a type 1 plane :)

That picture really does look awful, it looks better than that. Nothing's broken, cracked or missing and most of the paint (I don't think MF used japanning) is still there, though it needs to be cleaned off.

[Chris Griggs]

I was curious to see if anyone else would notice it's a type 1 plane :)

That picture really does look awful, it looks better than that. Nothing's broken, cracked or missing and most of the paint (I don't think MF used japanning) is still there, though it needs to be cleaned off.

Oops my bad. Sorry Dave.

Though even if you hadn't told me you had found a type 1, I'd like to think I still would have noticed :)

[David Weaver]

I'm not sure that there are many people with as much enthusiasm for the MFs planes as I have for them. But when it comes to buying them, that's good!

[Kim Malmberg]

I'm not sure that there are many people with as much enthusiasm for the MFs planes as I have for them. But when it comes to buying them, that's good!

You suck. That is one good find. I have just the one T1 and it's my most treasured hand tool.