Wainscot Router Profiles

[Edmund Burke]

Hi Folks,

I am about to commence a project where I will install stained oak wainscoting in a 13'x17' "parlor" in our Victorian era house. I plan to build the rails and stiles out 3/4"x 2-1/2" red oak and then cut oak veneer plywood panels to fit the openings. To hold the panels in and hide the panel edges, I intend to mount thin molding strips routed and ripped from the same red oak. To do this routing (which seems like a lot of linear feet to me), I'd like to use one of those Freud Quadra-Cut bits, but I am having trouble figuring out what would be a suitable profile? I have zero experience in designing such things, and so I was curious as to what others may have used successfully in this kind of situation? I just don't know what profile would look "right" or be the proper width? It looks like the profile needs to be about 3/8" high.

Any other thoughts or suggestions on such wainscoting would be appreciated as I am trying hard to get this right.

Here's the Freud profile list.
http://www.freudtools.com/p-88-decorative-edge-bits.aspx

Thanks in advance,

Ed

[Mark Bolton]

I would do a mock-up with whatever ply you are planning to use just to make sure you like the look of the panel. Not sure what type of ply your planning to use (RC, PS, etc.) but often times ply can be less than attractive and you'll have a good bit of work into the project. Just suggesting you make sure you like the look of the panels before you move forward.

With regards to the profile, for continuity I would be looking to other existing elements in the home to narrow down the molding profile.

[Benjamin Miller]

I'm just finishing up a 15x30 room of painted wainscoting, so I may be able to help here...

First of all, the molding you're looking for is called a bolection moulding, and should be a standard profile at any full service lumberyard (not a big box store). My local lumberyard stocks it where the back rabbet is 3/8", 1/2", or 9/16". I used 3/4" MDF for the rails and stiles, and cut the panels to 1/4" at the point where the bolection intersects, so the 1/2" profile was appropriate for me.

If you're doing any amount of this stuff, I HIGHLY HIGHLY HIGHLY suggest you order it from a lumberyard that has a moulding machine or can order it.

I got bolection moulding in poplar for about 65 cents / foot, which is less than I could have bought the wood for. The total cost for the 15x30 room was about $200. I would expect red oak to be around a dollar a foot. What's your time worth?

[Edmund Burke]

Thanks, Mark. I have a 6 ft. section I intend to build out first to see if it works in general. I hear you on the Oak plywood. I'm going to experiment with sealing the surface to keep the grain for standing out too much. As for the house's "existing elements", they are mostly buried under so many layers of paint :) you can hardly see them, though, mostly, they are your basic ogees and beads. I'm trying to keep the existing door and window molds, which are also very simple Victorian profiles, but I'd like to do something a little more refined on the panels in this room.

[Mark Bolton]

I got bolection moulding in poplar for about 65 cents / foot, which is less than I could have bought the wood for.

Not doubting at all that having this material run, or purchasing it off the shelf, would likely be far cheaper and with better end result than running it on any sort of router table, but.. Im not sure where your buying your wood but its got to be some high priced stuff!! :D

We dont buy in huge quantity but a bit bigger than hobby level but no where near full truckloads. On my last order we paid about 1.60/bf for FAS Red Oak S2S (13/16") and straight lined one edge. Depending on width, if you were to get 8 or so pieces/BF (run-and-rip) that would put your raw material cost at $0.20/LF. And thats for FAS Red Oak. Poplar would be far less than that. I cant remember the price the last time we bought but Im sure it was well below $900/mbf. At that price we may be talking $0.12-$0.15/LF.

I would think if Edmund were buying his hardwood anywhere other than the home center he would likely be below $0.30/LF for the material (oak).

Hand feeding 200' of molding is definitely a rough option but the material costs will be trivial in comparison.

[Benjamin Miller]

Im not sure where your buying your wood but its got to be some high priced stuff!! :D

I think you're right on this one. Doing some more figuring, I paid about $1.75/bd ft recently for poplar from the local hardwood dealer, as a hobbyist. They'll straight line rip and production plane it for free.

The bolection molding is about an inch tall and 1 3/8" wide, so we'd get 7-8 of them from a foot wide piece of 5/4 stock. That comes out to 27-31 cents per lineal foot.

I've used 240 lineal feet of the stuff in my living room, so in a best case scenario, I've saved (.65-.27) * 240 = $91.20. A good router bit can easily cost that much money, and this isn't necessarily a profile you're likely to use again, assuming the bit is still sharp.

I guess the question Edmund has to ask is whether he'd rather spend an entire weekend in front of the router table, or spend that weekend installing trim. I know my answer :)

As an FYI, I've been taking pictures over this project and plan to post a writeup in the next few days.

[Von Bickley]

Edmund,
Have you thought about cutting a rabbet on the stiles and rails to cover the edges of the plywood.

[Peter Quinn]

There are a few good millwork catalogue reprints available from the Victorian era on amazon, they detail typical molding profiles, whole room designs, trim packages available at the time floor to ceiling. I highly recommend checking these out. To add clarity to Benjamin's comments, a bolection is a large panel mold that stands proud of the frame and panel system it accompanies, it joints the frame at a rabbit in its back. A typical 'panel molding' sits at the intersection of panel and frame to dress it up or cover the intersection. Usually panel molding is thinner and it's back rests on the panel or panel tongue if raised. A bolection is larger and fancier, a panel molding is a bit smaller and produces a some what simpler visual depending on width, either was typical of that era.

I would second the suggestion to at least price commercial panel molding. Red oak is a pretty typical species, you may find its not worth your trouble depending on how you are equipped. For a 1 3/8" panel molding you want to use 6/4 stock, You run the full molding into the edge of the board, then rip off the molding and run again. Ripping 4/4 into strips and running these face to the cutter is mental...seriously, that redefines dangerous, it's nearly impossible to produce quality work that way too. And I know because I started out doing it that way before being set straight. I now do this for a living using large shapers, but I started on a router table in my basement. Pushing 6/4 stock past a large molding cutter in a table mounted router with a consistent feed rate and steady pressure is challenging verging on impossible. The best results I've ever experienced was ok. Do you like sanding? Or chatter marks? I don't care for much of either.

[Peter Quinn]

This catalogue I find useful for victorian era homes:

http://www.amazon.com/Roberts-Illustrated-Millwork-Catalog--Century/dp/0486256979/ref=sr_1_fkmr2_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386379911&sr=8-1-fkmr2&keywords=historic+millwork+catalogue

The Universal Millwork Catalogue and Hull Historic Millwork are also available on amazon, and both are very good but neither represents the height of the victorian era aesthetic as well as the Roberts book IMO.

[Edmund Burke]

Edmund,
Have you thought about cutting a rabbet on the stiles and rails to cover the edges of the plywood.
Hi Von,

That's not a bad idea. At least I wouldn't have to worry about the panels shrinking out from under the molding.

[Edmund Burke]

There are a few good millwork catalogue reprints available from the Victorian era on amazon, they detail typical molding profiles, whole room designs, trim packages available at the time floor to ceiling. I highly recommend checking these out. To add clarity to Benjamin's comments, a bolection is a large panel mold that stands proud of the frame and panel system it accompanies, it joints the frame at a rabbit in its back. A typical 'panel molding' sits at the intersection of panel and frame to dress it up or cover the intersection. Usually panel molding is thinner and it's back rests on the panel or panel tongue if raised. A bolection is larger and fancier, a panel molding is a bit smaller and produces a some what simpler visual depending on width, either was typical of that era.

I would second the suggestion to at least price commercial panel molding. Red oak is a pretty typical species, you may find its not worth your trouble depending on how you are equipped. For a 1 3/8" panel molding you want to use 6/4 stock, You run the full molding into the edge of the board, then rip off the molding and run again. Ripping 4/4 into strips and running these face to the cutter is mental...seriously, that redefines dangerous, it's nearly impossible to produce quality work that way too. And I know because I started out doing it that way before being set straight. I now do this for a living using large shapers, but I started on a router table in my basement. Pushing 6/4 stock past a large molding cutter in a table mounted router with a consistent feed rate and steady pressure is challenging verging on impossible. The best results I've ever experienced was ok. Do you like sanding? Or chatter marks? I don't care for much of either.

Hi Peter,

There is, for me, a lot of unexplored territory here, so I appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I expect to learn a lot of lessons about routing, fitting the moldings, and applying finishes. And the good news is that I can park furniture in front of most of my mistakes :cool:. I'm also not shooting for a full-on Victorian result. Mostly, I'm just sick of painted and wallpapered rooms and I thought this would be a chance to add some stained woodwork to the house.

I have routed and ripped some test pieces and I haven't been unhappy with the results or the process, but they are nowhere near 1-3/8", more like 1/2"x1/2", so maybe that's a difference? I'll check out my local millwork source, but I don't see how it can be less expensive than making the profiles myself? Certainly this will require a LOT of molding. That's why I'm interested in trying the Quadra-Cut bits. I'm hoping four edges will last longer and maybe control the chatter and minimize the sanding? I have a week of painting and flooring and wallpaper to finish first, but I'll post a picture of the first six feet when it's up on the wall.

Ed

[Jerry Miner]

You might also consider a bit like the Freud #99-061 (I don't know if it's available in the Quadra-cut):

#99-061 (http://www.freudtools.com/p-119-rail-stile-profile-bits.aspx)

It cuts a reversible profile, so you can mill the profile into all your stiles and rails, and cut matching coped ends on the stiles---saves all that mitering

[Mark Bolton]

more like 1/2"x1/2", so maybe that's a difference?

This was my gut feeling based on your post and the profiles/bits you posted. Was pretty clear you weren't planning on a true bolection.

That said, the same issues apply. If your looking for a small molding to trim out the panels it may in fact be cheaper to purchase. If you just want to make them for the sake of making them it's also more than likely true that you'll want to use the run-and-rip routine where you'll rout the profile on the edge of a wider board then rip the profile off on the table saw. If you haven't done this, it's much easier to handle and feed a larger board as opposed to feeding small strips.

The plus is you'll be able to work with shorter lengths. While it will be labor intensive, if you take your time you should be fine.

Last bit of input, change your mentality about hiding mistakes before you've even started. Go for a clean crisp job because you'll have a lot of time and money into this. When you set out with that mindset it can be far to easy to accept things that are easily corrected along the way. You'll have to look at this for a long time. Make it as nice as you can (nicer in fact).

Just my $0.02

[Edmund Burke]

Thanks to everyone for the input and suggestions. I ordered a classical cove and bead QC 38-362 and the reversible wainscot 99-061 ogee that Jerry suggested. We'll see how it all sorts out.

Mark, as an engineer I worked with used to say when we'd ask him how well a design would work, "It'll be as good as we can make it and not a damn bit better."

Ed

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks to everyone for the input and suggestions. I ordered a classical cove and bead QC 38-362 and the reversible wainscot 99-061 ogee that Jerry suggested. We'll see how it all sorts out.

Mark, as an engineer I worked with used to say when we'd ask him how well a design would work, "It'll be as good as we can make it and not a damn bit better."



Ed


The freud quadra cuts work quite well, I'll still reinforce the suggestion that you should be molding the edges of wide boards and ripping the resultant molding off on a table saw. Especially and particularly when machining such narrow stock. Easier to feed, more consistant results, safer not to have hands so close to the cutter head. And if you get a blow out, you can joint the edge one light pass and run again versus having a blank wasted. I don't think you wil have any problems milling smaller panel moldings on the router table, its the large cutters that worry me.