West Systems/Live Edge Table

[Ben Abate]

Hello,
I'm building a live edge table and would like to ask about using West Systems Epoxy for the filling of the cavities/defects. I'm hoping there are a few fellows here on the Creek that have experience using this product. Some of the holes are 2 inches deep and quit large and I have a few ideas of what I want to do with then but, i've not use this product before and I understand that West Systems is the preferred product for such a task.

Cheers
Ben

[Rick Whitehead]

Yes, I have used West Systems epoxy for filling holes and defects in walnut.I helped a friend of mine build some walnut tables for a Law library. The table tops were about 4' X 12' with a textured surface.
We used the regular West System epoxy and their black and brown dyes.If we were filling a knot hole, we used the black, as it looked better than the brown. If it was a small defect, we tried to match the color using the black and brown together. Usually, we colored it a bit darker than the actual wood.
The holes you mention are much larger than the ones in our table tops. If you want to fill them with epoxy, I would recommend filling them in several layers. If you try to fill it all at once, you may get some cracking in the epoxy. Epoxy generates a LOT of heat as it cures, and it also shrinks as it cures.
Anyway, that's my experience with filling holes with epoxy. It works well, and I think it will work well for you.
Rick

[Mac McQuinn]

I've used it quite a bit for boat building using the stitch & glue construction method. I'm not 100% sure of what you're working on although feel with the right mix, you'll be happy. West comes in several different epoxy blends and there's many different additives to achieve the desired results. West has a excellent group of Technicians in house and can head you in the right direction through their tech-line. This # should be on their site.

I've used Maple wood flour with their epoxy as a thickener to apply fillets on plywood boats where panels meet. This is very easy to work with and once you understand what you can accomplish with various additives, it's pretty eye opening.
good luck,
Mac


Hello,
I'm building a live edge table and would like to ask about using West Systems Epoxy for the filling of the cavities/defects. I'm hoping there are a few fellows here on the Creek that have experience using this product. Some of the holes are 2 inches deep and quit large and I have a few ideas of what I want to do with then but, i've not use this product before and I understand that West Systems is the preferred product for such a task.

Cheers
Ben

[Larry Edgerton]

Ditto what Rick said. I like to enhance defects in wood these days as it takes you away from the factory look.

Another trick with West when you are filling voids. You will get bubbles after you pour. Just wave a propane or map gas torch across it, fast enough not to burn anything. The carbon dioxide in the spent gasses pulls the bubbles right out immediately. It will continue to bubble for about 10-20 minutes depending on humidity/temp so you may have to do the torch thing several times. Keep am eye on it because it comes to a certain point where the bubbles will be trapped when the epoxy starts to thicken and then you can not get them out.

Pouring that much you need to come up with a way to cool it or do as Rick suggested in layers. Epoxy cures faster in volume and will actually boil if conditions are right creating a foam of sorts that is ugly and useless as well as being a burn hazard. On hot humid days it can boil in a large batch in little more than a minute. I figured out early when I picked up a hot can and burned my hand.

I do not put color in the epoxy, I put the color on the wood before I pour. I love the way it makes the hole look like it goes on forever.

Larry

[Bradley Gray]

I do a lot of live edge work. I try to fill with wood as much as possible,using end grain to fill in and around knots, then I apply satin poly. ( water base) I use small amounts of epoxy (5 minute clear) between layers of varnish.

[Sam Murdoch]

Ditto what Rick said. I like to enhance defects in wood these days as it takes you away from the factory look.

Another trick with West when you are filling voids. You will get bubbles after you pour. Just wave a propane or map gas torch across it, fast enough not to burn anything. The carbon dioxide in the spent gasses pulls the bubbles right out immediately. It will continue to bubble for about 10-20 minutes depending on humidity/temp so you may have to do the torch thing several times. Keep am eye on it because it comes to a certain point where the bubbles will be trapped when the epoxy starts to thicken and then you can not get them out.

Pouring that much you need to come up with a way to cool it or do as Rick suggested in layers. Epoxy cures faster in volume and will actually boil if conditions are right creating a foam of sorts that is ugly and useless as well as being a burn hazard. On hot humid days it can boil in a large batch in little more than a minute. I figured out early when I picked up a hot can and burned my hand.

I do not put color in the epoxy, I put the color on the wood before I pour. I love the way it makes the hole look like it goes on forever.

Larry

Excellent post.

[John Schweikert]

WEST Systems epoxy isn't the only game in town. At this point, plenty of brands make equal quality epoxies at less cost, System Three, MAS, RAKA, MarinEpoxy, East System and more. It's just chemistry and they all buy the same raw materials from only a couple of places and then "formulate" their own desired concoctions based on what properties they want. WEST 206 is known to produce more amine blush than other brands and needs to be washed off with warm water and scrotchbrite pad before additional applications such as varnish or more epoxy.

Good advice already provided above on technique and application. To slow epoxy from kicking too early just spread it thin in a wide bottom mixing cup or on a plastic covered board. Keeping mixed epoxy in a small container in relation to the volume of epoxy guarantees it will kick fast. Air temperature also dictates pot life. I work in an insulated my bow roof shed and keep the inside temp about 60-62 (for winter) which helps in a longer pot life using medium hardener for my boat build.

Keep epoxy off of skin especially the hardener. Cheap nitrile gloves are your friend. If you want a completely bubble free application for deeper holes, then look at bar top clear epoxy kits. Mixing epoxy in general creates small bubbles which are easy to knock down just by dragging foam brushes or portions of foam rollers across the surface. Acetone or vinegar cleans tools of uncured epoxy. Saran Wrap keeps epoxy from sticking to things. I actually like working with epoxy and fiberglass and constantly to improve my methods.

[Richard Coers]

I prefer used coffee grounds as a filler and colorant to the epoxy compared to tint. It has a more organic look compared to a plastic look from tint. Love the West System.

[Jacob Reverb]

WEST 206 is known to produce more amine blush than other brands and needs to be washed off with warm water and scrotchbrite pad before additional applications such as varnish or more epoxy.


...unless you apply subsequent applications over the epoxy while it's still "green" (if it can be dented with a fingernail) in which case deblushing is unnecessary.

[Ben Abate]

Gentleman,
Thank you for the info, it seems as if working with epoxy has many characterisics. I've used epoxy in small amounts like the 5 minute stuff to fill holes in many projects but in this project it's a bit different. The defects are large as i mentioned and I like the idea of doing it in layers, that makes sense. I did give consideration to bar top epoxy because I know they seem to be able to apply it in larger volume.

My shop temp. this time of year is usually about 68 or so. I'm either looking to fill the holes so they look clear or I've thought of using ground Turquoise to accent the top. Any suggestions if I go the Turquoise route? Do I use it in the last half inch or do i use it the entire fill? I'm thinking in the last half inch or so.

John, you mentioned multiple choices, I've used System Three on a few projects, the others I've not used. The reason I was thinking West Systems is I've heard good things plus there are multiple choices of their product. If I can ask what particular recipe would you fellows suggest if I go with the West System product line. I've read a lot about their products online but I'm getting confused about the resin and the hardeners. 105 versus 205/206 and so on. Let me give you an example, one of the inclusions is 2 inches deep and 6 inches long. My thoughts were to first use plastic on the bottom to hold the epoxy then pour in about a quarter inch of material and let that cure. Then repeat the process until I reach the top or if i use Turquoise to about 1/2" of the top and then mix in the Turquoise at that point. The other inclusions are smaller except for one that is bigger but not the entire way threw.

I've used analine dyes before to tint with and they work pretty good. I'll look into the dyes from the manufactures. My buddy has the West Systems 105 resin and the 206 hardener. He's suggested to me that I use or try his products to see how I like them. Nice guy. Would any of you use these to do what I want to do?

In my experience i've never had a problem with a finish on top of the epoxy, have any of you fellows experienced any problems with the finish not ahering? Since this project is a desk I'm thinking of using poly and then rubbing it out like a french polish. I never use poly for anything but I'm thinking I might this time. I'm of the pre-cat group of finishers. I've rubbed out a poly desk a few years ago and was pretty amazed at the beauty of it. So I'm thinking this is going to be my finish.

Fellows great info, I appreciate your thoughts
Ben

[John Schweikert]

...unless you apply subsequent applications over the epoxy while it's still "green" (if it can be dented with a fingernail) in which case deblushing is unnecessary.

The final coat can still blush.

[Mac McQuinn]

We built (25) Western Red Cedar strip canoes over the winter a few years back and used the West System 105/207 products. We typically used marine type top coats and waited a couple weeks to apply finish. Before applying we finish sanded and washed off the canoes with soap and water. We experienced no issues with top coat finish adherence. West Systems Tech line;Toll free 866-937-8797
Good luck,
Mac

[Larry Edgerton]

Mac gave you the tech line number, call and get a manual, and if you have a question call them, their tech line is the best I have ever experienced. They have helped me on unusual projects and even done experimentation to answer my specific questions. That is why I am loyal to West System. They are boat builders themselves and developed modern epoxys because what they wanted was not available.

Larry

[Peter Quinn]

West systems has a special clear hardener that has no amine blush issues, I've used it as a primer on some counter top and shower door applications. Works great. To answer the question about finish adhesion.....yes, I've had serious problems with varnish sticking to regular west systems, fish eye, delamination. I didn't clean the stuff and learned the hard way. The blush issue is not hard to deal with, the blush is a water soluable wax that is created as a byproduct of the epoxy curing, you wash it with warm water and a little soap, light wipe down...gone. Dont clean it but sand it and spread the stuff around, not cute. Damhik! Bigger problem could be clarity. The regular stuff (207 hardner) is meant to be painted, not clear coated, so at its best it's a bit cloudy. This may be of no consequence for knot filling with pigments and wood flour. If you require a clear epoxy primer or filler use the clear hardener. One guy I work for prefers knot fills as clear as possible so you see the wood below, another prefers dark opaque wood flour thickened filler, so it's a matter of personal preference.

Larry mentioned the blow torch to remove bubbles, a hair dryer or electric paint stripper works well too, the heat lowers viscosity of the fresh epoxy, reduces the surface tension, reduces the wet epoxy's ability to hold bubbles. Another trick is to warm the resin (not the hardener though) to just under 100 degrees, then mix it quick but gently. I use my wife's heating pad for back aches...she just loves that! The warm epoxy is much thinner and wont hold bubbles well. The bubbles can be air that's trapped from mixing which heats as the epoxy kicks and expands as a result. Start with warm thin resin, half the problem is solved. A spritz with denatured alcohol can do similarly but it has to be a fine mist like a hair spray bottle so if flashes off without thinning the base epoxy, but that's more for broad surface priming than knot and void filling. All these tips come from technical bulletins on the west systems education pages on their site. Lots of good stuff there. Good luck with it which ever way you decide to go. Best trick I learned was to practice on scraps, even at the expense of some expensive epoxy, still cheaper than new wood.

[Mac McQuinn]

Peter, I believe you're thinking of 206 hardener as I think the 207 product is very clear, formulated for natural looking top coat finishes. This is what we use for cedar strip canoes when we want the grain to clearly show and pop w/ a few coats of varnish over it.

I've always done epoxy work 1st thing in the AM as the cool temps seem to alleviate most out gassing, providing a smoother surface, easier to sand before top coating w/ varnish
Mac





The regular stuff (207 hardner) is meant to be painted, not clear coated, so at its best it's a bit cloudy. This may be of no consequence for knot filling with pigments and wood flour. If you require a clear epoxy primer or filler use the clear hardener. One guy I work for prefers knot fills as clear as possible so you see the wood below, another prefers dark opaque wood flour thickened filler, so it's a matter of personal preference.

Larry mentioned the blow torch to remove bubbles, a hair dryer or electric paint stripper works well too, the heat lowers viscosity of the fresh epoxy, reduces the surface tension, reduces the wet epoxy's ability to hold bubbles. Another trick is to warm the resin (not the hardener though) to just under 100 degrees, then mix it quick but gently. I use my wife's heating pad for back aches...she just loves that! The warm epoxy is much thinner and wont hold bubbles well. The bubbles can be air that's trapped from mixing which heats as the epoxy kicks and expands as a result. Start with warm thin resin, half the problem is solved. A spritz with denatured alcohol can do similarly but it has to be a fine mist like a hair spray bottle so if flashes off without thinning the base epoxy, but that's more for broad surface priming than knot and void filling. All these tips come from technical bulletins on the west systems education pages on their site. Lots of good stuff there. Good luck with it which ever way you decide to go. Best trick I learned was to practice on scraps, even at the expense of some expensive epoxy, still cheaper than new wood.

[Kevin Jenness]

You might try working from the back side to minimize bubbles at the surface. Tape over the void on the face securely to prevent leakage, invert the board on a waxed worktop, and pour in epoxy from the backside, not to exceed 3/4" thickness per lift. If there is not a through crack, you could drill a hole to meet the surface void. Watch out for leaks, as the filler may go unexpected places.

[David Kuzdrall]

Mix in some Burt umber dry pigment into your epoxy after you put the hardener in for a very dark filled color; depending on concentration it will look like walnut end-grain.

[Ben Abate]

hello all,

I ended up purchasing the 105 resin and the 107 hardener. After the discussion here and doing a bit of reading online and talking to the folks at West Marine in Pittsburgh's North Hills area I felt the 107 was what I wanted. A clear hardener. I just mixed a small batch this morning and applied it to one of the voids that has a bottom to it and it looks very clear. It developed a skin in about an hour or so maybe less but it's looking pretty clear with minimal air bubbles. I used a heat gun and a dentist tool to remove the air trapped on the surface. I'll also do as recommended to layer this in, in 1/4 inch layers. I'm in no hurry so I feel better about doing one mix per day and letting it set up. If I decide to do the crushed Turquoise inlay I'll do that on the last pour

Fellows I thank you for your help and information.
Ben

[John Schweikert]

Ben,

You get a better chemical bond layer on layer when applied in shorter than 24 hour times, just when the surface is no longer tacky but can be dented with a finger nail. That time varies with epoxy speed and temperature. For example, I use a medium speed hardener at about 65 degrees so usually 8-10 hours is my recoat timeline.

[Ben Abate]

John,

I'll take your advice and do so. I've never used West Systems before so this is a new experience. Thank you for the info.