'New Arn', or: How important is 'Made In The USA' to you?

[Janis Stipins]

I've been thinking a lot about the state of American manufacturing --- specifically, I've been thinking about what it would take to build a successful American company that could create the next generation of 'old arn' tools that our grandkids would still be able to use.

The bottom line is that it isn't actually difficult to design and build high-quality machines. It's just difficult to compete price-wise with overseas manufacturing that skimps on either quality or human rights (or both). So in order to be profitable while providing top-quality equipment, an American company would have to charge more than the importers do.

And something else would need to happen, too: we American woodworkers would have to collectively put our money where our mouths are, so to speak. It's a common lament on these forums, and others, that there are no sources for hobbyist/small-shop machines made entirely in the USA. So fine; suppose there were a source. How much of a premium would you pay for their products?

Specifically: Let's suppose that there is a new American company making top-quality cabinet saws, aimed at the hobbyist/small-shop woodworker, guaranteed to last for at least one lifetime. It's not hard to imagine what a saw like that looks like: a Leeson motor, maybe; lots of cast iron; no plastic pieces; incredibly heavy and stable; impeccable quality control. And every part made in the USA, by American workers.

How much of a premium would you pay for that saw, compared to what you'd pay for one of the imports?

There are no wrong answers, and I'm absolutely not trying to start a political debate of any kind. I'm just wondering what people would actually be willing to pay. So please answer honestly. :-)

For what it's worth, my suspicion is that it IS possible for this hypothetical company to be profitable; just not AS profitable as they could be by cutting corners on the design and shipping the jobs overseas. But I might be wrong.

-Janis

[David Weaver]

I personally would only pay more for it if it was actually better.

[Brian Elfert]

Much of the woodworking stuff made overseas was designed here in the USA. I believe that most of the overseas made big iron equipment made today would easily last my lifetime and probably serve future generations too. I like to buy Made in the USA, but I won't pay stupid amounts of money for it either. If the difference was 10% it would be made in the USA in almost all cases. A new cabinet saw today for me would almost certainly be a Sawstop even though it is made overseas.

Big iron from the old days will almost never wear out as long as bearings and such are taken care of. Motors might need to be rewound or replaced eventually. My high school wood shop had Northfield Machinery big iron in it. To buy the same machines today would cost well over $100,000 most likely. I believe Northfield Machinery is still in business. The shop had a 16" table saw and a 14" radial arm saw.

[Stephen Cherry]

Does the US even have the small scale foundry capacity to produce this sort of thing at a reasonable cost?

In any case, the northfield saw starts around 15k.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-NMB-2012.pdf

One of the problems with selling technology that has not much changed in the past 50 years, is that you are competing against used machines that are pennies on the dollar, particularly once you get over the lightest weight machines.

More and more, I like the euro machines. Even my little inca table saw.

[Justin Ludwig]

Does the US even have the small scale foundry capacity to produce this sort of thing at a reasonable cost?

In any case, the northfield saw starts around 15k.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-NMB-2012.pdf

One of the problems with selling technology that has not much changed in the past 50 years, is that you are competing against used machines that are pennies on the dollar, particularly once you get over the lightest weight machines.

More and more, I like the euro machines. Even my little inca table saw.

Northfield is anything but a hobbyist/small shop tool. It takes a small city to mine the ore to put into one of their machines.

[Janis Stipins]

One of the problems with selling technology that has not much changed in the past 50 years, is that you are competing against used machines that are pennies on the dollar, particularly once you get over the lightest weight machines.

This is true, but I'm not sure it's enough in itself to make it impossible for our hypothetical business to be profitable. There are plenty of used machines, yes, but that doesn't stop Grizzly, Jet, Powermatic, etc., from doing a very brisk business in the hobbyist/small-shop market. In theory, some fraction of those sales could be going to an American manufacturer, if one existed.

Your question about the foundry is a good one. I don't know the answer.

-Janis

[John Coloccia]

I would personally pay a little more for Made in the USA because I like to support our own friends and neighbors, but what's most important to me is that it's made responsibly, either here or elsewhere. By that I mean made in a way that's not abusive to employees. Since I don't know exactly what the conditions are in a particular factory, that usually means buying from North America, Europe, and Japan when possible. I do wish we actually manufactured more in the US, though. If they can manufacture in Germany, of all places, import to the US and make a profit, surely we can be competitive and still make a profit.

[Brian Elfert]

I overestimated what Northfield Machinery tools cost. What the high school shop had would cost about $100,000 to buy today. For that $100,000 you would have quite the shop. The only big iron that wasn't Northfield Machinery was a smaller second band saw, the wood lathes, and the Timesaver wide belt sander.

Even at high school age I was surprised by the sheer size of the tools for a high school wood shop. Many professional woodworkers get by with far smaller machines.

[Sal Kurban]

Does the US even have the small scale foundry capacity to produce this sort of thing at a reasonable cost?

In any case, the northfield saw starts around 15k.

http://www.northfieldwoodworking.com/pricelist/pricelist-NMB-2012.pdf

One of the problems with selling technology that has not much changed in the past 50 years, is that you are competing against used machines that are pennies on the dollar, particularly once you get over the lightest weight machines.

More and more, I like the euro machines. Even my little inca table saw.

Just spoke to the fellow at Northfield last week about the same topic... He related that Northfield is the only North American Woodworking machinery manufacturer left after General of Canada went south last year and that an important factor is tort/insurance costs. When it comes to labor costs, he said the future is brighter because the cost differential in favor of China used to be 10 to 1 but that costs are rising in China and the gap is closing fast. He cited a cost difference of about 3 at the moment.

Sal.

[Dave Lehnert]

Just spoke to the fellow at Northfield last week about the same topic... He related that Northfield is the only North American Woodworking machinery manufacturer left.

Sal.

Shopsmith tools are still made in Dayton Ohio.

[Stephen Cherry]

I don't think that we are talking bout Northfield level machines though. More like The Griz.

My feeling is that there are a few other US manufacturers, but they are specialized machines (ritter, weaver, etc.).

It seems to me that the table saw is due for a rethink, and who knows what that would look like. One thing that would make the US manufacturing more viable would be if there were added technology benefits- the brake of a sawstop, the precision of inca, the dust collection and riving of the eurosaws, plus add in a small precision slide, and a nice motor. None of this is new, but it might take a few years for it to be possible. Maybe even add in good digital indicators right out of the box.

Anyway, if it were done right, and marketed right, it could be a winner in the same way that people like up at the Lie Nielsen tool events. Just my opinion, but you would need to make a better saw to get more money.

[Ryan Mooney]

A slightly different market but a similar point might be some of the premium hand tool makers like Bridge City or Lie Nielson or Veritas (or....). They all have tools that sell for small multiples of most of the imports. They're also somewhat objectively a lot nicer or have innovative features that sell them. I think most scenarios I can see a domestic machine manufacturer competing in would want to take a similar approach and sell it as a premium tool with higher end premium features. In that scenario I could see something like perhaps a 2-3x premium, but the product has to be somewhat compelling and differentiated from the competition (this may be getting harder to do as imports become more sophisticated). A related case study would be Felder's hammer line of saws which run somewhere around 1.5-2x+ most import tools in a similar performance class (they are functionally differentiated though) and are I believe mostly sold into the hobbyist market (I think that may well be true of the market for even the 500 and 700 lines at this point which - if true - supports my point even more).

[Brian Kent]

Stephen, thank you for mentioning Lie Nielsen. Great example. Manufacturing is actually alive and well in the United States - still the largest manufacturer and exporter in the world. So this is not an impossible problem.

[Janis Stipins]

an important factor is tort/insurance costs.

I don't understand this. Was he saying that these costs are unique to Northfield and American manufacturers? And if so... why wouldn't they apply equally across the board to any machine manufacturer?

-Janis

[Janis Stipins]

I totally agree that it is not an impossible problem, and I acknowledge that in the USA we have some of the best fine hand tool manufacturing in the world. (Although we apparently stopped making decent bit braces around 1930 or so; but that's a different topic.)

It's precisely because of Lie Nielsen, Lee Valley, etc., that I started thinking about this topic. Both of these manufacturers could have probably increased their profit margins by outsourcing their manufacturing overseas, cutting corners, etc., but they have not. And woodworkers remain willing to pay for their higher quality, American-made products. It makes me wonder whether a company with similar commitments to quality and ethics could succeed in the small-shop machine market.

-Janis

[Andrew Joiner]

I don't understand this. Was he saying that these costs are unique to Northfield and American manufacturers? And if so... why wouldn't they apply equally across the board to any machine manufacturer?

-Janis

Many or most Chinese companies have not carried products liability insurance. May be true for Taiwan as well.

http://licatarisk.com/cms/chinese-drywall-maker-defaults-in-us-lawsuit/

[Janis Stipins]

Many or most Chinese companies have not carried products liability insurance. May be true for Taiwan as well.

http://licatarisk.com/cms/chinese-drywall-maker-defaults-in-us-lawsuit/

Interesting. I'm not sure that I completely trust that particular site to be objective about the actual scope of the problem (since they're ready to sell me a solution to the problem just as they finish describing it), but I can believe that it is a real issue.

-Janis

[Jeff Erbele]

Just spoke to the fellow at Northfield last week about the same topic... He related that Northfield is the only North American Woodworking machinery manufacturer left

Sal.
SawStop is a table saw manufacturer headquartered in Tualatin, Oregon, USA.

Baileigh Industrial® worldwide headquarters are Manitowoc, WI USA. I'm not sure where they are manufactured.
http://wood.baileighindustrial.com/company/about-baileigh-industrial/#sthash.HIB2kzOD.dpuf
And
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/104896/new-woodworking-machinery-maker-hits-the-ground-running

Wood Machinery Manufactures of America
Eligibility: http://www.wmma.org/membership/membership-eligibility.cfm

Member Directory
WMMA members are U.S. manufacturers of woodworking equipment, cutting tools, and supplies. Distributors, suppliers, consultants and educators also are members.
Manufacturer members design, build and sell equipment, tooling, supplies, and components used in the manufacture of all types of wood products. Members’ products are used in furniture, door and window, flooring, and kitchen cabinet manufacturing plants; plywood and particleboard mills; lumber mills; shipyards; mobile home and pallet manufacturing plants; home workshops; plus a wide variety of associated wood processing operations. Many member products also help in plastics, ceramics, stone and solid surfaces manufacturing, and the non-ferrous metals market machining aluminum, brass, copper, and other non-ferrous metals.
WMMA members' products are sold worldwide. Please visit the Product Guide (http://www.wmma.org/woodworking-machinery/index.cfm) for more member information.


The Membership Directroy is very extensive:
http://www.wmma.org/membership/woodworking-machinery-suppliers.cfm

It is possible there are US manufacturers who are not members; of course those would not be listed. Shop Smith is one example.

[Rod Sheridan]

I wouldn't suggest that any manufacturer get into the business of making "old arn" type machinery as there is almost zero market for it.

If you want to start an American company to make wood working equipment, make something like MiniMax or Felder equipment.

For industry, old arn is dead, CNC is the current type of machinery required.

For a small cabinet shop, a Euro slider is far more competent and capable than a cabinet saw, and will last just as well.

For a hobby user, a new NA type cabinet saw would be in the $3k to $4K range, and still only does one job well, which is rip.

If you want to rip and crosscut, buy a slider, even better buy a slider with a tilting spindle shaper in it, now you have a really capable machine that's cost and space efficient.

Although we all wax eloquent over old arn, nobody is going to pay for new arn, they're going to spend that sort of money on much more machinery.......Regards, Rod.

P.S. I voted for the 100% option, as I previously had a shop full of General equipment, (I`m Canadian), and willingly paid extra for the Made in Canada machinery.

[Jeff Erbele]

I've been thinking a lot about the state of American manufacturing --- specifically, I've been thinking about what it would take to build a successful American company that could create the next generation of 'old arn' tools that our grandkids would still be able to use.

The bottom line is that it isn't actually difficult to design and build high-quality machines. It's just difficult to compete price-wise with overseas manufacturing that skimps on either quality or human rights (or both). So in order to be profitable while providing top-quality equipment, an American company would have to charge more than the importers do.

And something else would need to happen, too: we American woodworkers would have to collectively put our money where our mouths are, so to speak. It's a common lament on these forums, and others, that there are no sources for hobbyist/small-shop machines made entirely in the USA. So fine; suppose there were a source. How much of a premium would you pay for their products?

Specifically: Let's suppose that there is a new American company making top-quality cabinet saws, aimed at the hobbyist/small-shop woodworker, guaranteed to last for at least one lifetime. It's not hard to imagine what a saw like that looks like: a Leeson motor, maybe; lots of cast iron; no plastic pieces; incredibly heavy and stable; impeccable quality control. And every part made in the USA, by American workers.

How much of a premium would you pay for that saw, compared to what you'd pay for one of the imports?

There are no wrong answers, and I'm absolutely not trying to start a political debate of any kind. I'm just wondering what people would actually be willing to pay. So please answer honestly. :-)

For what it's worth, my suspicion is that it IS possible for this hypothetical company to be profitable; just not AS profitable as they could be by cutting corners on the design and shipping the jobs overseas. But I might be wrong.

-Janis

I might pay more for an all American built machine but only if were of higher quality and/or provided better features and functions.

This topic may make for an interesting discussion, but that is all it is.
The truth is the US used to dominate the auto industry and most domestic vehicles on the road were domestic built. That is no longer the case. I maybe wrong mistaken but most cameras, electronics, shoes, the majority of prescription drugs, eye glasses, nearly all clothing, motorcycles other than Harley & Triumph, a long list of sundries - craft & hobby, decor & decorations, trinkets, virtually anything handmade, etc., are imported.

Besides inexpensive labor, quality or human rights (or both), other factors including OSHA and safety regulations, workmen's comp insurance, employee benefits, EPA and environmental regulations, the fact that tax laws repel business rather than encourage it are obstacles and overhead not found in many foreign countries.

People supporting Harbor Freight or like businesses, or like quality products as a rule, is evidence that this statement, "we American woodworkers would have to collectively put our money where our mouths are, so to speak", most likely is not going to happen.

Collectively there are not enough hobby woodworkers, professional's, cabinet and furniture shops to support your proposal. The former companies such as Rockwell and Delta built machines of the quality you mention and they either went out of business, restructured and moved overseas.

[John Coloccia]

SawStop is a table saw manufacturer headquartered in Tualatin, Oregon, USA.

Baileigh Industrial® worldwide headquarters are Manitowoc, WI USA. I'm not sure where they are manufactured.
http://wood.baileighindustrial.com/company/about-baileigh-industrial/#sthash.HIB2kzOD.dpuf
And
http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/104896/new-woodworking-machinery-maker-hits-the-ground-running

Wood Machinery Manufactures of America
Eligibility: http://www.wmma.org/membership/membership-eligibility.cfm

Member Directory
WMMA members are U.S. manufacturers of woodworking equipment, cutting tools, and supplies. Distributors, suppliers, consultants and educators also are members.
Manufacturer members design, build and sell equipment, tooling, supplies, and components used in the manufacture of all types of wood products. Members’ products are used in furniture, door and window, flooring, and kitchen cabinet manufacturing plants; plywood and particleboard mills; lumber mills; shipyards; mobile home and pallet manufacturing plants; home workshops; plus a wide variety of associated wood processing operations. Many member products also help in plastics, ceramics, stone and solid surfaces manufacturing, and the non-ferrous metals market machining aluminum, brass, copper, and other non-ferrous metals.
WMMA members' products are sold worldwide. Please visit the Product Guide (http://www.wmma.org/woodworking-machinery/index.cfm) for more member information.


The Membership Directroy is very extensive:
http://www.wmma.org/membership/woodworking-machinery-suppliers.cfm

It is possible there are US manufacturers who are not members; of course those would not be listed. Shop Smith is one example.

SawStop is made in Taiwan. I think Baileigh is generally from Asia.

[Rich Riddle]

I purchase tools based upon quality, that's it. I have a primarily old American stationary tools but have recently found European tools such as Aggazzani, Felder, Hammer, Inca, and Minimax the best tools available. A few of the new variety of Jet/Powermatic made it into the shop, but it's because they were the best bang for the buck and good quality tools. If I am only going to utilize a tool once or twice, then the cheap Harbor Freight variety work, but never for a stationary tool. In short, make the best competitive product and I will buy it; it doesn't matter who built it.

Quite frankly, I have been very disappointed in the quality of many American tools and workers. That's what drove me toward woodworking-the decline of craftsmanship and apathetic attitudes. It's sad when one can do a better job than most "craftsmen" in a matter of a few years when those folks have made a living in their trades. But their apathy offered a great impetus into a very enjoyable hobby, so that must be the silver lining.

[Brian Elfert]

Sawstop is a great example of an American technology that is only implemented in products made overseas. As most everyone knows, Sawstop originally wanted to license the technology to table saw manufacturers, but nobody wanted to add the technology to their saws. If Sawstop was incorporated in an American made saw the manufacturer would have something extra that folks would pay the Made in USA premium for.

I had only brought up Northfield Machinery originally as an example of American made old iron that will last essentially forever if bearings and such are replaced as needed. I am not advocating anyone wants or needs that level of big iron for a home shop.

[Justin Ludwig]

I don't think that we are talking bout Northfield level machines though. More like The Griz.

My feeling is that there are a few other US manufacturers, but they are specialized machines (ritter, weaver, etc.).

It seems to me that the table saw is due for a rethink, and who knows what that would look like. One thing that would make the US manufacturing more viable would be if there were added technology benefits- the brake of a sawstop, the precision of inca, the dust collection and riving of the eurosaws, plus add in a small precision slide, and a nice motor. None of this is new, but it might take a few years for it to be possible. Maybe even add in good digital indicators right out of the box.

Anyway, if it were done right, and marketed right, it could be a winner in the same way that people like up at the Lie Nielsen tool events. Just my opinion, but you would need to make a better saw to get more money.

Very good point, Stephen, but money trumps. Here's the problem with Americanism... Let's take Chrysler and GM for example. They initially promote, advertise and release a top of the line vehicle for middle America: the 300 and the Camaro (it's rebirth), both of which are limited in their release and come fully decked out at a premium price. People come out of the wood work (pun intended) and create a demand well over supply, therefore charge a ridiculous premium. 6 months goes by after the initial "OMG-I-WANT-NEED-GOTTA-HAVE-IT". They make their quick $$ then saturate the market with V6 plain-jane versions of the vehicle that "look" the same on the exterior but are quite inferior. Now you have lesser income (socio-economic statused) people driving the same looking car. Values plummet and folks are 10k upside down.

This might now be a fair analogy, but that's how American consumerism works. The key to "done right, and marketed right" is keeping the base model fully loaded. But it's a fine line in finding the premiums people are willing to pay in order to the "Made in the USA" company afloat.

[Frederick Skelly]

FWIW, I generally decide how much I can spend and then buy the best I can afford at the time. I prefer to buy American, and I'll pay more to do it (assuming the quality is there). But how MUCH more depends on how much I expect to use the item. If Im going to use it constantly, its worth a notable premium. If I only use it occasionally, its not.

My benchmark is a cheap socket set I bought in school. Its changed several water pumps, mufflers, shocks, etc. But Im not a professional using it daily, so this cheap set has lasted many years. I just wouldnt get my money out of an equivalent set of SnapOn tools. (Yes, I can feel the difference between the two. Its just not worth the extra cost to me.)

For a tablesaw - you bet Id pay extra - its the most used tool I own. Ill cheer you on and come to one of your demos for sure!

Best of luck to you.
Fred

[Myk Rian]

Is there anything such as "lifetime guaranteed, made in the USA tools"?
I buy vintage if I can.

[Mac McQuinn]

Rod,
While I fully understand your reasoning as it applies to businesses utilizing industrial equipment, I feel there is still a untapped market for home based woodworkers. IMO,The target market would be a large percentage of the type of woodworkers on this forum as I feel we're trying to do good woodworking at an affordable price. Sure there's the few who have a higher percentage of disposable income and simply want the best. I personally don't care to finance a hobby and typically pursue my hobbies w/ what I can pay cash for.

Let's say I can buy a 14" BS sourced from Asia for $550.00, I would have no problem spending $850.00 for the same size BS if it's made in the U.S. I feel excellent quality, job support, long term resale value and parts back-up will more than offset the extra expense. IMO $300.00 extra won't get you into an elaborate piece of WW equipment although it might just help support your country's economy, provide something you can actually get parts for in 10 years and have something you would be proud to hand down to your Son which has actual value. As you move up the ladder, some U.S. made tools are going to be a stretch although a reachable one, so you might have to save for few extra months. Doesn't it seem worth it with the benefits mentioned above?
Mac



I wouldn't suggest that any manufacturer get into the business of making "old arn" type machinery as there is almost zero market for it.

If you want to start an American company to make wood working equipment, make something like MiniMax or Felder equipment.

For industry, old arn is dead, CNC is the current type of machinery required.

For a small cabinet shop, a Euro slider is far more competent and capable than a cabinet saw, and will last just as well.

For a hobby user, a new NA type cabinet saw would be in the $3k to $4K range, and still only does one job well, which is rip.

If you want to rip and crosscut, buy a slider, even better buy a slider with a tilting spindle shaper in it, now you have a really capable machine that's cost and space efficient.

Although we all wax eloquent over old arn, nobody is going to pay for new arn, they're going to spend that sort of money on much more machinery.......Regards, Rod.

P.S. I voted for the 100% option, as I previously had a shop full of General equipment, (I`m Canadian), and willingly paid extra for the Made in Canada machinery.

[Art Mann]

Grizzly Tools imports stationary equipment which could be classified as "old arn" in design and they appear to be doing rather well at it. The unfortunate consequence of having a world market and a world economy is that US workers must compete directly with Asian workers who are quite happy to build equipment for 1/5 or less pay rate. Either US workers will have to accept lower pay or Asian workers will have to become a lot more affluent before the US manufacturing will return.

[Brian Elfert]

If American workers work for less to compete with imports, who will buy the manufactured goods regardless of country of origin? The American workers will no longer be able to buy the items due to lower wages.

[Brian Elfert]

Is there anything such as "lifetime guaranteed, made in the USA tools"?
I buy vintage if I can.

Sears moved manufacturing of most Craftsman hand tools like wrenches and sockets overseas in the past year or two. However, I have seen them advertising Craftsman tool sets still Made in the USA. Craftsman tools are guaranteed for life. Sears will even replace broken tools obtained second hand.

There are several large manufacturers of mechanic's tools in the USA that still make their tools in the USA with lifetime warranty. The problem is the price is orders of magnitude higher than imported tools. They market mostly to professionals who use their tools all day long to make money. Wright Tool makes everything here in the USA and even buys all their steel from American mills. I have one Wright Tool socket in a very large size because I specifically did not want an imported socket.

[John Coloccia]

http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html

[Rich Riddle]

Rod,
While I fully understand your reasoning as it applies to businesses utilizing industrial equipment, I feel there is still a untapped market for home based woodworkers. IMO,The target market would be a large percentage of the type of woodworkers on this forum as I feel we're trying to do good woodworking at an affordable price. Sure there's the few who have a higher percentage of disposable income and simply want the best. I personally don't care to finance a hobby and typically pursue my hobbies w/ what I can pay cash for.

Let's say I can buy a 14" BS sourced from Asia for $550.00, I would have no problem spending $850.00 for the same size BS if it's made in the U.S. I feel excellent quality, job support, long term resale value and parts back-up will more than offset the extra expense. IMO $300.00 extra won't get you into an elaborate piece of WW equipment although it might just help support your country's economy, provide something you can actually get parts for in 10 years and have something you would be proud to hand down to your Son which has actual value. As you move up the ladder, some U.S. made tools are going to be a stretch although a reachable one, so you might have to save for few extra months. Doesn't it seem worth it with the benefits mentioned above?
What evidence do you possess that suggest because something is made in America that it will be of excellent quality? Many American manufactured goods have excellent quality, but many lack quality as well. Delta tried to cater to the hobbyist back in the day with the Homecraft line as did Black and Decker. We aren't a very good crowd for a business model. I won't ever be "proud" to hand down any tool but content that the ones handed down will last. Many of those will be vintage American tools, but just as many will be European with a few Asian ones.

[Stephen Cherry]

Very good point, Stephen, but money trumps. Here's the problem with Americanism... Let's take Chrysler and GM for example. They initially promote, advertise and release a top of the line vehicle for middle America: the 300 and the Camaro (it's rebirth), both of which are limited in their release and come fully decked out at a premium price. People come out of the wood work (pun intended) and create a demand well over supply, therefore charge a ridiculous premium. 6 months goes by after the initial "OMG-I-WANT-NEED-GOTTA-HAVE-IT". They make their quick $$ then saturate the market with V6 plain-jane versions of the vehicle that "look" the same on the exterior but are quite inferior. Now you have lesser income (socio-economic statused) people driving the same looking car. Values plummet and folks are 10k upside down.

This might now be a fair analogy, but that's how American consumerism works. The key to "done right, and marketed right" is keeping the base model fully loaded. But it's a fine line in finding the premiums people are willing to pay in order to the "Made in the USA" company afloat.

I would think that made right means that it is just made better and is recognizable as better. Two features to consider would be a saw that is made to be aligned, meaning it has provisions to be aligned is something other than a hit or miss manner. Also, an improved drive system with the newer belts (micro v ?). If someone were to look at this there are plenty of ways to improve a unisaw- I'm not sure how much different you could make it from the hammer and minimax offerings though. In any case it would have to be better in some way that is recognizable.

Then it would need to be sold with this in mind.

Cars are not a good example of this- they just do not last- they are a consumable item.

Lie Nielsen is the perfect woodworking example. They make only excellent products, and never really have big sales. And they actually are much better than lower priced alternatives, in many cases. For example, their Boggs Spokeshaves are excellent, right out of the box, and command a price many times that of what you can buy at the local Woodcraft store.

A non woodworking example is Boston Whaler boats. They started in the early 60's and in some aspects were far superior to the competition, and had the price to show for it. They set very specific marketing requirements of how the boats were shown and sold. They rode this advantage for at least 30 years.

[Rod Sheridan]

Mac, I applaud your willingness to pay more for a machine made in your country.

I'm willing to do it as well.

I do believe however that your price example is way out of whack.

If you could buy an Asian bandsaw for $500 it would be $2.000 if it was made in North America.

Have a look at General machinery, a 10 inch cabinet saw was $3,500, it was a great cabinet saw, I owned one.

I don't know what an Asian saw would cost, maybe 1/3 of that?

Now supposing you could make an American cabinet saw and sell it for $3,500, who would buy it when you could get a Hammer K3 for the same price? How many of us bought General or Powermatic? So few that General closed their Canadian manufacturing division.

That's my issue, I'm all for buying a North American saw, if there was an American or Canadian substitute for MiniMax and Felder I would own one, there's no way I would pay that kind of money for an obsolete cabinet saw.

I'm all for local production, however it has to be a world class product because you'll need good export sales to make up for lack lustre home area sales.

Regards, Rod.

[Mel Fulks]

I just looked over that link to Northfield,those prices are staggering ! Other than a CNC machine and a cabinet program CD I've never seen a company buy anything that pricey. And I don't see any mention of Mechanite and have been told that no one uses it for woodworking equipment anymore. It might be that our phones get better for some time but some old machinery might be the best for a long time. About 1980 I worked for an old company that was doing the millwork for an extraordinarily large and lavish house. They decided they needed a another hollow chisel type mortiser . Called a lot of places looking for a new machine that would be faster than the foot pedal spring operated feed machine we had. They didn't come up with anything except an oscillating machine that would only do smaller size mortises. Subsequent to that in another employment I came across a Wysong mortiser ,a great machine with every type of adjustment and feature you could ever imagine. But they were out of business when the former employer was looking for NEW equipment so they were never an option .

[Art Mann]

If American workers work for less to compete with imports, who will buy the manufactured goods regardless of country of origin? The American workers will no longer be able to buy the items due to lower wages.

That is a very good point. It isn't publicized much for obvious reasons, but government reports show the standard of living of the average American worker is going down. You have just explained one reason why. I don't think there is any way we can ever compete with Asian manufacturers on unskilled labor intensive products. My opinion is that to save our way of life, the US must continue to develop new technology that we can sell at a premium on the world market. Unfortunately, that won't help our least skilled workers very much.

Several people have mentioned or implied that Chinese made goods are of lower quality and I think that is mostly true. However, that is only a temporary situation. The Chinese can learn to build top quality products and still sell them at significantly lower cost. Just think about the situation with the cheap Japanese cars of the 1960's or cheap Korean cars of the early 2000's.

[Matt Meiser]

Is there anything such as "lifetime guaranteed, made in the USA tools"?
I buy vintage if I can.

Did anyone ever offer a lifetime guarantee on power tools? Doubt it.

In hand tools: Klein, Wilde, Snap On, S-K all come to mind immediately.

[Mac McQuinn]

Rod,
While I certainly see your point, it was only about 7-8 years ago you could buy a U.S. made 14" Band Saw for approximately 20% more than an Asian made unit. I feel the way North American products are marketed today is obsolete. I worked in heavy manufacturing for 34 years before retirement and feel in today's market, a completely new method of marketing is required to sell North American products in the U.S. While our labor costs are certainly higher, we also have strengths, capabilities and advantages we can use. There are still U.S. made items in the consumer market which are solidly designed and sell well. I can't speak for Canada although I know they have advantages also, I do believe though with some hard work, increased productivity, creative marketing and use of quality components there is a strong niche market for North American made tools.

As far as good export sales, we can be competitive if playing on a level playing field, with that, it gets political and I won't go there.

Mac




Mac, I applaud your willingness to pay more for a machine made in your country.

I'm willing to do it as well.

I do believe however that your price example is way out of whack.

If you could buy an Asian bandsaw for $500 it would be $2.000 if it was made in North America.

Have a look at General machinery, a 10 inch cabinet saw was $3,500, it was a great cabinet saw, I owned one.

I don't know what an Asian saw would cost, maybe 1/3 of that?

Now supposing you could make an American cabinet saw and sell it for $3,500, who would buy it when you could get a Hammer K3 for the same price? How many of us bought General or Powermatic? So few that General closed their Canadian manufacturing division.

That's my issue, I'm all for buying a North American saw, if there was an American or Canadian substitute for MiniMax and Felder I would own one, there's no way I would pay that kind of money for an obsolete cabinet saw.

I'm all for local production, however it has to be a world class product because you'll need good export sales to make up for lack lustre home area sales.

Regards, Rod.

[Mac McQuinn]

Rich,
Excellent quality?
In American manufacturing's heyday, I would match overall quality with anything else dollar for dollar spent. The capabilities are still there.
Mac



What evidence do you possess that suggest because something is made in America that it will be of excellent quality? Many American manufactured goods have excellent quality, but many lack quality as well. Delta tried to cater to the hobbyist back in the day with the Homecraft line as did Black and Decker. We aren't a very good crowd for a business model. I won't ever be "proud" to hand down any tool but content that the ones handed down will last. Many of those will be vintage American tools, but just as many will be European with a few Asian ones.

[ed malcom]

I feel that when the cost of doing business in china plus shipping gets too high some of the jobs will come back. BUT WE ALSO HAVE TO HAVE PEOPLE WILLING TO WORK. Welfare is getting to lucrative

[Mac McQuinn]

Brian,
I purchased a complete set of Wright tools in 1973 and during the last 40 years of almost daily use I cracked (1) deep socket and wore out (2) 12 point sockets. All were replaced w/o a second glance. It's great to hear they're still around producing quality tools, shows a lot of integrity.
Mac


Wright Tool makes everything here in the USA and even buys all their steel from American mills. I have one Wright Tool socket in a very large size because I specifically did not want an imported socket.

[Scott T Smith]

Janis, as others have stated I would pay more for the tools (25%), but my expectations of quality would be higher.

Additionally, in general I lump Canada, the US, and Mexico together in terms of buying preferences, as we are all neighbors and allies and I believe that it is good business to help your neighbors succeed. I don't view the quality level of Mexican products to be in the same league as US or Canada, but I think that they are equivalent to - or slightly better than Chinese. I probably would not pay quite as much of a premium for the Mexican tools as the US or Canadian, but if I had the choice all things being equal I would prefer Mexican to Chinese.

[Chris Parks]

I haven't read the whole thread but the salary/wages issue can be a bit of a myth. No matter what the country if a worker making a TS is paid well by their payment standard what is the issue? Do we, sitting at our computers in a western industrialised country expect them to be paid the same as we would be? That would wreck their economy. Australia has the same issue but maybe worse as it looks like GM is about to fold all car production and Ford has already taken that decision so goodbye motor industry.

[Jeff Erbele]

I wouldn't suggest that any manufacturer get into the business of making "old arn" type machinery as there is almost zero market for it.

If you want to start an American company to make wood working equipment, make something like MiniMax or Felder equipment.

For industry, old arn is dead, CNC is the current type of machinery required.

For a small cabinet shop, a Euro slider is far more competent and capable than a cabinet saw, and will last just as well.

For a hobby user, a new NA type cabinet saw would be in the $3k to $4K range, and still only does one job well, which is rip.

If you want to rip and crosscut, buy a slider, even better buy a slider with a tilting spindle shaper in it, now you have a really capable machine that's cost and space efficient.

Although we all wax eloquent over old arn, nobody is going to pay for new arn, they're going to spend that sort of money on much more machinery.......Regards, Rod.

P.S. I voted for the 100% option, as I previously had a shop full of General equipment, (I`m Canadian), and willingly paid extra for the Made in Canada machinery.

I agree that the market is limited. If there was a market to support it, some company would be fulfilling it.

You are not giving the cabinet saw enough credit for its abilities. It does more than rip and it does a lot of it nicely. For many that is the main woodworking machine. In all fairness there is another recent thread where several SMC members, either don't own one, or do and use some other machine in lieu of tht TS.

[Janis Stipins]

I agree that the market is limited. If there was a market to support it, some company would be fulfilling it.

I disagree with the second statement. It takes more than an addressable market for a company to exist. It also takes someone with the vision and desire to serve that market, instead of finding easier ways to make more money elsewhere.

For example, I don't know the detailed histories of Jet, Delta, Powermatic, General, etc, but I do know that at some point in the lifecycle of each of these companies, somebody had to say "Hey, you know what? My grandfather/father/etc may have built this place from the ground up, but what the heck... I could use some more cash." And then they made a decision to sell out their respected brand names to big corporations that wanted to rebrand inferior products and sell them to the masses.

When they did that, the customers who were willing to pay more for higher quality machines didn't disappear.

The people who run Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen, for two examples, obviously derive satisfaction from something other than making the maximum profit in the easiest way possible, because otherwise they'd be selling imported junk just like the other places. If tomorrow Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen decided to sell out --- which based on profit alone might be perfectly reasonable --- the markets they serve today would still exist.

My point is: We currently do not have an American company manufacturing high-quality, no-cut-corners, but still hobbyist-sized shop machines, but I don't think this is due to the lack of a market. I think it's because no one with the means actually *wants* to serve this market.

-Janis

[Brian Elfert]

I haven't read the whole thread but the salary/wages issue can be a bit of a myth. No matter what the country if a worker making a TS is paid well by their payment standard what is the issue? Do we, sitting at our computers in a western industrialised country expect them to be paid the same as we would be? That would wreck their economy. Australia has the same issue but maybe worse as it looks like GM is about to fold all car production and Ford has already taken that decision so goodbye motor industry.

I don't think anyone expects wage parity world wide. Cost of living varies greatly around the world. Standards of living also vary greatly around the world. What I don't want to see is 1st world wages getting pushed down to more closely match wages in other lower wage countries.

An example is computer programmers. US companies can hire a programmer in India for $12 to $15 an hour. Overall, it probably costs about half as much to employ that Indian programmer than an American programmer when you factor in productivity and such. $15 an hour is hardly a living wage in the US, but in India someone making $15 an hour can live quite well. Many of those making $15 an hour can support their family, their parents, and even their grandparents on just that one job.

[Art Mann]

Janis, as others have stated I would pay more for the tools (25%), but my expectations of quality would be higher.

Additionally, in general I lump Canada, the US, and Mexico together in terms of buying preferences, as we are all neighbors and allies and I believe that it is good business to help your neighbors succeed. I don't view the quality level of Mexican products to be in the same league as US or Canada, but I think that they are equivalent to - or slightly better than Chinese. I probably would not pay quite as much of a premium for the Mexican tools as the US or Canadian, but if I had the choice all things being equal I would prefer Mexican to Chinese.

You would probably not be saying that if you and 3,000+ other employees in a single location lost their automotive industry jobs to Mexican competition. That is what happened in my community. In a twist of fate, those same jobs are now being slowly transferred to China.

[Jeff Erbele]

I disagree with the second statement. It takes more than an addressable market for a company to exist. It also takes someone with the vision and desire to serve that market, instead of finding easier ways to make more money elsewhere.

For example, I don't know the detailed histories of Jet, Delta, Powermatic, General, etc, but I do know that at some point in the lifecycle of each of these companies, somebody had to say "Hey, you know what? My grandfather/father/etc may have built this place from the ground up, but what the heck... I could use some more cash." And then they made a decision to sell out their respected brand names to big corporations that wanted to rebrand inferior products and sell them to the masses.

When they did that, the customers who were willing to pay more for higher quality machines didn't disappear.

The people who run Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen, for two examples, obviously derive satisfaction from something other than making the maximum profit in the easiest way possible, because otherwise they'd be selling imported junk just like the other places. If tomorrow Lee Valley and Lie-Nielsen decided to sell out --- which based on profit alone might be perfectly reasonable --- the markets they serve today would still exist.

My point is: We currently do not have an American company manufacturing high-quality, no-cut-corners, but still hobbyist-sized shop machines, but I don't think this is due to the lack of a market. I think it's because no one with the means actually *wants* to serve this market.

-Janis

RE: ...but I don't think this is due to the lack of a market;
That is the same as saying, "I think there is a market". So, you disagree with both of my statements.

We have different theories.

Noting the thread poll with limited responses, reflects there is a market of some level. But it is just a poll, not a feasibility study nor a business market study and it is not a scientific poll by any means. It has limited responses, very few; it has no margin of error, it does not differentiate hobbyists from pro's, it does not compare hobbyist budgets to the unknown price of high quality American made machines and so on; still I'll accept there is a market, but an unknown one.

You think it's because no one with the means actually *wants* to serve this market.

I'll revise my theory to: there is some market, albeit size unknown; and my statement to: if this business had some likely-hood of making a reasonable profit in reasonable time period (say 3-4 years for discussion sake), some company would be building and selling these American made, high quality, hobby sized shop machines.

Business is all about the bottom line, earnings and profit.

My point is: No one with the means "wants to" serve the market because it is not profitable, or profitable enough.

New, advanced and developing technologies may change this sometime in the future.
http://www.remmele.com/Tech/addl_tech.html
http://www.remmele.com/Tech/proprietary.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackson-mariotti/3d-printing-no-longer-jus_b_4400731.html

In the late 80's a laser printer cost about $2,000; affordable for some businesses, others got by on with dot matrix printers and print shops went out of business in countless numbers at a rapid pace. Today high quality 5 in 1 machines can be had for under $500 and many homes have one. Why would someone want to build a multi-million dollar factory complete with foundry, machine shop, welding shop, assembly line, QC, and shipping department, to build a "New-Arn" woodworking machine with a limited market when the real possibility exists that soon another company maybe printing the parts, and soon enough hobbyists will be doing the same at home.

The Maytag Company tooled up and built a wringer-washer type washing machine during WW-II. My mother used one from as early as I can remember until well after I graduated from college. In the 1980's in appliance store I spotted one and commented to a salesman, cool! great restoration job, thinking it was a show-piece of vinatage Maytag History. He floored me. He said that is a brand-new machine, direct from the factory and showed me the manufactured date on the name plate. They certainly got their money's worth, ROI - Return on Investment on the tooling cost of that machine. Of course they had a larger market; every body does laundry; not everyone makes long boards too short :eek: :)

The hypothetical New-Arn factory has far less opportunity, much greater business risks, probably a declining market (maybe) and a much shorter product life-cycle, if it got off the ground at all, and new technology is a very wild card, not in their favor.

I study companies and which ones to invest in, most days, 8 hours a day, Monday thru Friday. I use a lot of resources, some free to anyone, some free to those with a brokerage account and others that I pay a couple thousand dollars per year in subscriptions. Based on what I know about the economy, business, companies, and their top & bottom line I cannot see ever investing in such a venture as a New-Arn business. It does not make good business sense. I think it would be a tough sell. I understand why no one wants to serve the market.

[Frank Trinkle]

Couple of points to add....

1. The steel industry in the USA died years ago. It would take a resurgence of that industry in the USA to provide the raw material for major heavy iron machines. Ain't going to happen anytime soon.

2. Gasoline is another example. We haven't built a new gas refinery in the USA in more than 35 years, and we are slowly losing the ones we DO have. Everyone screams that we need new refineries... but just not in my back yard. The oil companies don't want to build new refineries because the net profit margin on refining gas is roughly 3-5%. As a result, we currently import about 9,000,000 barrels of REFINED gasoline....DAILY! (And a lot of it from Socialist Venezuela)

3. Even if you wanted to build WW Machinery in the USA, there would STILL be parts that would come from overseas....primarily electronic components, so it would still have to legally be labeled "Assembled in the USA". This is the case with APPLE's announcment that they would start manufacturing some of their products in the USA... but really, they are still having to import pieces of those products.

4. Quality. I haven't seen a U.S. company that has built machines, or tools with the kind of quality achieved by companies like Festool, Felder, Agazzani, ACM, Famag, Colt, Fein, and others. The one unquestionable expertise of high end U.S. companies is in Quality Assurance and Controls for their overseas manufacturing.... companies like SawStop, Apple, Banana Republic, as well as many others. Apple, for example has a virtual ARMY of QC engineers stationed at their factories in China, and I've heard the reject rate on some products is as high as 20%. The same cannot be said of a number of WW machine companies whose products just don't make the cut for quality, fit, and finish.

5. Finally.... and perhaps the most cogent point... While we are purchasing and using machines built by cheaper labor overseas, the products we MAKE from operating these machines ARE all MADE IN THE USA!

[David Weaver]

It wasn't that long ago that PM was building some machines in the US. Delta, too. The market pretty much proved that people wouldn't put a premium on it. General canada is another good example. How many general canada cabinet saws and planers do you see in individuals' workshops.

Of course, WMH is attempting to increase prices to a level that they're in line with domestic production without paying to have them produced here, but they've been on that streak for a long time.

Aside from #3 that Frank said above (and, figure that just about everything has chinese or indonesian or malaysian parts in it somewhere), even if we wanted to build something here and there was the volume to support doing so, now you have a layoff between when the products were last produced here and now, and that kind of thing does not lead to good quality results for a while. Can you imagine if someone tried to produce a machine in the US, started doing so, and they had problems for a year or two while they were charging more?

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Mac, I was not aware that the price difference was that low in the USA.

In Canada, the General 14" bandsaw was well over $2,000 while the Asian models were $500.

I agree that we have strengths that need to be utilised, in addition to an abundance of natural resources and energy.

I have no idea why we allow the export of raw natural resources out of our country, we should only export high value finished products or components.

I would pay a premium for a US or Canadian machine...........Regards, Rod.

[Brian Elfert]

I've hadn't looked at the prices of woodworking equipment for some time, but I do know that prices have gone up. I stopped by the new Rockler superstore this weekend and a basic Powermatic 14" band saw made in Aisa is now $1,100! It wasn't that many years ago that one could buy a similar Delta 14" band saw made in the USA for $700 or so.

[John Coloccia]

re: investing in domestic manufacturer
As an investor, I wouldn't invest in such a company either. And an entrepreneur, though, I would surely start such a company. Believe it or not, in the year of our Lord, 2013, you can still start a company in your garage and grow it into a success. People seem to think that the only way to do it these days is to gather together millions of dollars, a large staff and simply will a successful company into existence....you know, just snap your fingers and *POOF*, a successful company is born. That's just not how it works.

Anyhow, I think we are at the beginning of a renaissance of local, small businesses that will provide much needed nuts and bolts style engineering and manufacturing. At the forefront of this, IMHO, is crowd sourced funding. I believe crowd sourced funding will only grow as success after success is wracked up, with high risk distributed over many many people instead of a handful of investors. Advances in 3d printing have made it economically feasible to bring a prototyping machine into practically any company....and really, into practically any workshop that wants one. You can even BUILD one for even less money. The US also has a wonderful supply chain for practically anything you might want, and it's gotten to the point that you can even order custom items online without ever even having to talk to anyone. Plastic parts, metal enclosures, circuit boards, and all made in the USA by people who ignored conventional investment wisdom and decided instead to do what all successful businessmen do...find a need and fill it.

[Jeff Erbele]

SawStop is made in Taiwan. I think Baileigh is generally from Asia.

Thank you. My comment on Saw Stop was directly from their web site. Where they are headquartered may have nothing to do with where production occurs
Baileigh - I found nothing, nor did I spend much time looking.

[Jeff Erbele]

Grizzly Tools imports stationary equipment which could be classified as "old arn" in design and they appear to be doing rather well at it. The unfortunate consequence of having a world market and a world economy is that US workers must compete directly with Asian workers who are quite happy to build equipment for 1/5 or less pay rate. Either US workers will have to accept lower pay or Asian workers will have to become a lot more affluent before the US manufacturing will return.

Your points are very valid.

I don't know if labor south of the border or in the other hemisphere are happy with 1/5th the pay, maybe - maybe not. People everywhere are the same in one sense, they want a job, they want to provide for their families, feed, cloth, educate, medical care and a roof over their head, with enough money left over to buy a cell phone, TV and a music box. They want a chance to make a decent living and live a decent life. They may be very happy to have a job at all. When they are mistreated or under paid compared to some fair bench mark they know it and are upset.

Even within the US regarding many of the lower paid, lower skilled, labor-type jobs; ethnic minorities fill those jobs; some of which are citizens, some are illegal immigrants and others have work permits. They are filling a real need that the most middle class people with a skill, a business, a vocation, a profession, a talent, or a college degree do not seek nor have any aspirations to fill those jobs.

Some examples of those jobs include, seasonal jobs, services, fast food especially entry level on the line, cleaning & maid service, labor jobs in agriculture, construction and landscaping. Its one thing to own a farm or ranch; it is another to work for the owner / own a roofing company vs be in the tear-off crew / own a landscaping company vs dig holes and move heavy materials by hand. Yes there are exceptions, but as a general rule these are a few examples of the way things are at the present.

[Greg Portland]

At the forefront of this, IMHO, is crowd sourced funding.Besides crowd source funding and 3D prototyping you should also mention the extreme ease of acquiring manufacturing capacity. If I want a 3D prototype I don't need to buy a 3D printer... just send my design off and the prototype will be 1-day mailed back to me. Once I'm ready to build I hop over to Alibaba and get quotes for building the number of items I want. I don't need to (initially) worry about setting up a factory... there are plenty out there that will build my design for me.

[John Coloccia]

Besides crowd source funding and 3D prototyping you should also mention the extreme ease of acquiring manufacturing capacity. If I want a 3D prototype I don't need to buy a 3D printer... just send my design off and the prototype will be 1-day mailed back to me. Once I'm ready to build I hop over to Alibaba and get quotes for building the number of items I want. I don't need to (initially) worry about setting up a factory... there are plenty out there that will build my design for me.

LOL...I did mention that :)

In fact, that's how I'm sourcing some of my products. For example I have an Hammond enclosure (made in Taiwan, not North America unfortunately, but at least it's a Canadian company, I guess), and my supplier drills them to my spec, powder coats them and UV prints the graphics. My circuit boards are made by Sunstone. I order batches of 100 and they turn them around in 4 days. For smaller prototype batches, they turn them around in 2 days....or one day if I feel like paying for it. It's amazing the resources that are available for someone who's actually interested in making things. Sure, it's not the cheapest way to manufacture, but in larger quantities it's really not that costly, and I suspect that the small business owner probably comes out way ahead when you consider the overhead costs of a dedicated facility.

[Peter Kelly]

Many of the top brands flat table CNC machines are made in USA (CR Onsrud, MasterCam, Thermwood, Komo). Just not a lot of consumer-grade or manual woodworking equipment anymore.

[Frederick Skelly]

Did anyone ever offer a lifetime guarantee on power tools? Doubt it.

Im not certain, but I think Home Depots Rigid brand of power tools had a lifetime warranty at one time. Anybody recall?

Granted, Rigid aint Festool but Im not a Rockefeller either. ; )

Fred

[John Coloccia]

Im not certain, but I think Home Depots Rigid brand of power tools had a lifetime warranty at one time.

I think what they meant by that is it takes a lifetime to get them to honor their warranty. I don't know of anyone that's ever gotten satisfactory warranty service from them. I'm sure it's happened, and I'm sure there are lots of happy people out there...I just happen not to know any.

[Brian Elfert]

Im not certain, but I think Home Depots Rigid brand of power tools had a lifetime warranty at one time. Anybody recall?


Ridgid tools still have the lifetime service agreement which includes batteries. There is a whole network of Ridgid service centers so you don't have to go through Home Depot. I have no idea how long service takes as my only Ridgid power tool was purchased just before the lifetime service agreement started. I'm pretty sure the batteries are dead and just not worth replacing them.