Framless cabinet book/method suggestions

[Peter Quinn]

Any suggestions on a book outlining a good method for framless cabinet construction for the small shop? I build face frame cabs almost exclusively at work, I'm on a job building a pile of framless cabs and can't help thinking there's got to be a better way than what I'm doing now in terms of organization. We don't have line borers, a CnC, edge bander, or any of the things one might expect in a euro cab production shop, because we are not one. I've worked out a good method for drilling shelf holes and hinge holes, I'm looking for a start to finish outline of the process....I see a few books available but can't get any previews. Any thoughts, or other sources of info? Thanks.

[Jeff Duncan]

I don't know of any specific books, but I've heard a lot of talk about the "True 32" system from others in the business. Can't say first hand as I just set up my own ways and blunder through, but may be worth looking into. I believe they have a lot of info online.

It sounds like it's too late this time, but I might suggest if you run into a job like this again think about having your cabinet parts cut and drilled by someone else. I don't do many large Euro jobs, biggest are usually kitchens, and I still can't imagine trying to get through them without some type of construction drill. Outsourcing this may be a better way for your shop to work without a large investment in equipment;)

good luck,
JeffD

[jack forsberg]

what Jeff said it call 32mm cabinet construction.

read this to get started. All the hardware works with the 32mm spacing. And largely its a cabinets based on hardware like blum.


http://techdirections.com/32mmCabinet.pdf

[Bruce Wrenn]

Danny Proulx's book, "Building Your Own Kitchen Cabinets."

[Victor Robinson]

This may help
http://www.cabsystems.com/KISSII/KIIrivDe-mail.pdf

[Mark Wooden]

Depends on whether frameless or 32mm system cabinets have been specified. If they have just specified frameless cabinets and provided regular Western measurements, you're just building regular cabinets without having to fit up a face frame, have at it.
The method behind 32mm cabinets is that everything is the same- no left and right cabinet sides, dedicated tops and bottoms; everything is the same, interchangeable and mostly multiples of 32mm. Once you've done one or two, it's pretty simple to do again. The only thing I've found to be the kiss of death is when someone starts doing metric to inch conversions, it always seems to get fubar. Start with metric, end with metric.

[Loren Woirhaye]

The KISS system is pretty good at the math, but it doesn't explain how to do it without the special machines.

Paul Levine's old book "Cabinets and Built-ins" cover a method of making frameless cases accurately enough to install in the European style with basic home shop type machines and solid wood edging instead of plastic edgebanding. Jim Christ wrote some books on building frameless too. I have not seen them but I do have his text book on Modern Cabinetmaking and that's not the one to get as it is targeted at industrial arts students working in well-equipped shops.

[John A langley]

Peter the book I use is European cabinetry design and construction by Jim Christ sterling publications i'm also a face frame shop but I have done A 1/2 dozen euros in the last 10 years I stick with imperial dimensions and have adjusted very well there are some very good jigs on the market that will help you a lot I have to second what Jeff said about outsourcing however I am a hardheaded and I like doing things myself so I don't outsource if you would like to private message me your email address or phone number I can supply you with more information

[Paul Wunder]

http://www.amazon.com/Making-Kitchen-Cabinets-Foolproof-Workshop/dp/0918804949

This older book by Paul Levine helped me too build my first European style kitchen in the 80's, Some of the designs are dated, but the construction was straightforward and sturdy. Simple tools required. I built the entire kitchen on a Sears radial arm saw,

[Stephen Cherry]

if you google Blum Process 32 Manual, the manual will come up at the woodweb site. It has diagrams of how the cabinets go together to fit into the system.

If I could buy only one tool that is outside of what is normal (jointer, planer, saw, shaper, etc), for this system it seems like a line boring machine would be super nice. I was able to pick up a ritter machine on craigslist for this, and even though it is mostly in the way, when I do actually drill some holes with it I am very happy to have it. It is nice to know that all of the holes are in the right place! Admittedly, for me a good pattern, and my cr onsrud inverted pin router would be just fine (the pin router can drill super nice holes, faster and better than a plunge router).

I happen to have Paul Levines video out of the library and he outlines building this sort of cabinet using a tounge and groove strategy. If I were to build this sort of cabinet, I would look at pocket holes for everything except the bottoms of wall cabinets- there I would consider biscuits. I would prefer to maintain the accuracy of the fence measurement on the saw for part sizes, which I don't really know how to do while producing a tounge.

I like the face frames though, but I realize that there are settings were a face frame cabinet would look out of place, just as there are settings where frameless cabinets look out of place. For contemporary interiors, the frameless cabinets really are much more appropriate.

Google this:
Blum's Process 32™ Manual

[Peter Quinn]

Thanks for all the fine input guys. I've followed every link and learned quite a bit. Its not a 32MM system job I'm doing, thats just not what we ever do. That looks like quite an interesting method. I think my boss would cringe at the idea of having that many unfilled holes drilled in a case. He hates having adjustable holes for shelves and we keep those to a minimum. My thinking is who ever looks in there really, what can you see when they are filled with stuff, and who cares? But its not my call, so no line borer. These are rather tall frameless cabs, euro hinges, a few shelf holes. I've got them all glued up but not the smoothest carcuss assembly effort on record, I'm doing this research for my own edification should another such job land on my bench. My first suggestion was "Can't we farm this out…err…at least the plywood parts?" There is an excellent firm locally that is part of the thermwood group, E-cabinet systems participant, I have their software and took a class some time ago that involved using it. I remember the teacher pulling out a frameless box disassembled and putting it together, the top and bottom shelf and back were all stop dadoed into the sides, the top and bottom of the sides had something like a 1/2" dado with a 1/4" ear at the top, sort of like a shallow mortise and tenon. Perfect location, good mechanical strength, all cut on a CNC, packed on a pallet and ready for assembly. Brilliant really, but thats just too easy. Some guys just insist on making everything themselves…..I'm not one of those guys, but I'm not the boss, and mine does. The guy who taught the class I took was making 12-15 kitchens a year out of his garage on a part time basis, he designed custom kitchens then farmed out 80% of the cutting, the doors, occasionally he made face frames, mostly he did design and final assembly/install. Hmmm, I just built a new garage…...

While checking one of the links above, and honestly I don't remember which, google confuses me that way, I found a 10 part video series from the Portland Community College on making frameless cabs! Some parts were a bit intro for my needs, but the series is well done, and the teacher uses mostly basic shop equipment with the exception of a Blum mini press because he is teaching the 32MM system. He had an interesting and very simple method for notching the front edge of horizontal partitions to fit into a stopped dado in the sides, that was one area I was struggling for a solution, and his is quite simple and more importantly quick! I'd love to have one of those blum mini presses…..not sure i'd ever even use it, but it just looked like a cool gadget, and I love cool gadgets! I developed a good method for drilling the screw holes for the cup hinge plates in the case sides, its oddly based on a hinge template for traditional butt hinges in FF cabinets, why not take the old dogs best trick and apply it to a new dog? There are no drawers…..in almost 30 LF of lower and uppers…floor to ceiling…no drawers. Designers….? So that parts easy.

Thanks again for all the responses. I'm thinking I have a few books to add to the christmass list too. In the words of Edna Mode, Success favors the prepared!

[Loren Woirhaye]

Dowels are only favored for extremely high volume work because the wrong amount of glue can cause hydraulic pressure and blow-out the melamine core. You need a case clamp to keep up with the dowel inserter. Shops without CNC use a construction drill and butt joints. Dowels can be used but confirmats are more forgiving because they don't blow out with too much glue and the joints can be shifted a bit with a mallet, not to mention being capable of on-site assembly. The essential thing about frameless is they have to be really consistent and square so you can stack them up any way you want without the whole stack or row going out of plane. Thus if your crosscuts on aren't square enough your cases end up tapered because the joinery indexes off the end of the cut part, not off a theoretical "square" and parallel archetype (which you can get close to with CNC running holes or blind dados and also cutting the parts out).

It's really a stupid amount of fuss and/or expense to get it dialed-in for such a dull product... but it can be a money-maker. Somebody somewhere in the business called the basic cabinet "the world's most boring manufactured product".

Anyway, you can save money on materials and please customers by doing frameless well and it definitely can save on labor/time if you're set up for it and have a system worked out that works consistently in your shop within the fussy tolerances.

[Peter Quinn]

Loren, Your comments go right to the point of my concerns. I glue up a bunch of boxes for face frame cabs, they are squarish, that's good enough. The face frames cover any errors, the boxes connect with tongues at transitions, scribes at walls, it's all very forgiving. But the frameless? It's all naked, nothing to hide out of square errors. I've been fighting hard to get these boxes dead square, not sure I'm there. Only saving grace, it's partition wall to partition wall full overlay with a little filler trim detail at each end, so unless the whole thing gets really whacked, slight gaps wont be grossly obvious. I hope.

If I had at least a vertical panel saw I'd sleep better doing frameless, but it all starts ripping off of a factory edge on a TS, and it never gets better than that. I'm not using melamine, it's PF A-4 VC maple, and the factory edges are......factory edges. I suggested we might want a more accurate method than is typical for FF cabinetry and was told to stop whining and just do it.....we'll see how that theory works after install!

[John A langley]

Peter a sliding tablesaw would be of great help even in a Face frame shop, one thing it is easier to cut the sheet of plywood up on

[Dan Rude]

Lee Valley sells a system for making these type of cabinets http://www.leevalley.com/US/Wood/page.aspx?p=42200&cat=1,180,42311. Pricy for me, but might be a good choice for a small shop, to do these type of cabinets. Dan

[Peter Quinn]

Peter a sliding tablesaw would be of great help even in a Face frame shop, one thing it is easier to cut the sheet of plywood up on


I have a 10' SCMI slider at my disposal, it squares up OK for its age, but to me breaking down sheet stock on a slider is like hunting with a club. Its better than some methods, worse than others. I think I'd still be cutting plywood for 2 weeks if it were all done on the slider. They are very versatile, surly a great asset to the custom shop, but that versatility IMO comes at the cost of being great at nothing. A sort of jack of all trades saw. You almost always have to be a specialist to be great at something. I'll probably take heat for saying this out loud, but not likely IME from somebody used to using a vertical saw. I'm talking a Streibig or Hendrick type saw with two horizontal beams and a sliding carriage. The wood enters the saw then never moves during the cut, its the dead wood theory on steroids and it removes one major obstacle to square cuts. On the sliding table saw, you just keep turning the material, and lifting, and turning, and lifting…..my back is starting to hurt just thinking about this. You get stuff square by squaring an edge, then referencing that edge and cutting all the other edges…thats a lot of edges to cut. As it turns out I did all the cross cutting on the slider using the rip fence as stop so at least the two ends should be parallel as much as possible. Easy enough. Plywood hits a cart coming through the door, goes across a TS to another cart..to the slider, to another cart. Never gets actually lifted until its small and ready to assemble. I worked PT in a shop with a big Hendricks vertical saw, it was a revelation. Quick, almost painless, dead square sheet goods without effort. It takes a lot of wall space but not so much floor space. I'm thinking that for any commercial sheet stock based cabinet shop a vertical saw and heavy duty cross cut line with a tiger stop set up for FF parts makes far more sense than a slider to me. Maybe at some volume a CNC trumps that too. I can't think of one thing a slider can do that another machine can't do better and easier, but the slider can do so many things in one package its a very compelling format economically.

All that said, I wouldn't be opposed to doing the whole break down on the slider, but the shop I'm in isn't set up right for that, its a real bear to split length wise, never occurred to them it could do that so they backed it up to a wall and tucked it tight into a corner, made it hard to do anything but cross cut. My next challenge is how to attach several hundred LF of 1/4" thick prefinished textured edge banding to preassembled prefinished boxes. I've got pin nails, brads, glue, clamps….hope.

[John A langley]

Peter I was under the impression that you didn't have anything but a tablesaw. I won't get into the arguments about the merits of one tool over the other but I will say that tablesaw are no good for breaking down sheet goods it's hard to find any sheet goods that are true anymore, It sounds to me like you're working for somebody who is pretty set in his ways good luck with the project

[Jeff Duncan]

Only thing I'll add is your shop…..or your bosses shop…..should get a Blum press. Using screw on hinges is like using a crank to start your car….nobody does it anymore:p Drill your doors on a Blum press and use the Inserta hinges. I promise you you'll kick yourself for not having made the switch years ago;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

I have a 10' SCMI slider at my disposal, it squares up OK for its age, but to me breaking down sheet stock on a slider is like hunting with a club. Its better than some methods, worse than others.

What I like about the sliding saw is it's ability to make a first straight rip cut, either in plywood or lumber. Particularly in thick lumber where the power and the riving knife help the saw to keep on trucking where it seems like it would choke a unisaw.

After the first rip, I rip against the rip fence, just like on a cabinet saw. I don't mind that the slide keeps me out from the front of the saw, because I don't want to be there anyway.

What I don't have figured out is the crosscut. You start with a long piece, slide the rip fence forward to be in front of the blade, and measure with the rip fence while pushing against the slides crosscut fence. BUT, what happens with the last peice- it can be too short for support by the crosscut fence when measuring with the rip fence. The solution seems to me to be to use the flip stop, which is set up fine, but will the flip stop be exactly the same as the rip fence? There is no reason to assume that it would be.

So if I want some parts to be the same (nothing is perfect so the same is the next best objective), it's rip the normal way, crosscut a little long, then mark a front edge. Then it's to the slide for crosscut- flip stop up, front against the fence and make a small crosscut- then flip it end for end with the front still against the fence with the flip stop down make the other crosscut. I would rather not have to make a crosscut then have to do it again, but I don't know any better way to do it on the sliding saw.

What I am thinking about doing is setting up my 24" crosscut radial arm saw as a crosscutter using a digital fence. That way there is crosscut fence on either side of the blade. I don't have any plans to build euroboxes, but it seems to me that if you mark the fronts of the panels as the side against the radial arm saw fence, and the top of the panel as either consistently the left or right of the board as it goes through the radial arm saw- then differences in the sides would stack together- any error in a top box would compliment the error in the box under it. (of course, the saw would be aligned for 90 degrees as well as I can make it)

[Mark W Pugh]

While checking one of the links above, and honestly I don't remember which, google confuses me that way, I found a 10 part video series from the Portland Community College on making frameless cabs! Some parts were a bit intro for my needs, but the series is well done, and the teacher uses mostly basic shop equipment with the exception of a Blum mini press because he is teaching the 32MM system. He had an interesting and very simple method for notching the front edge of horizontal partitions to fit into a stopped dado in the sides, that was one area I was struggling for a solution, and his is quite simple and more importantly quick! I'd love to have one of those blum mini presses…..not sure i'd ever even use it, but it just looked like a cool gadget, and I love cool gadgets! I developed a good method for drilling the screw holes for the cup hinge plates in the case sides, its oddly based on a hinge template for traditional butt hinges in FF cabinets, why not take the old dogs best trick and apply it to a new dog? There are no drawers…..in almost 30 LF of lower and uppers…floor to ceiling…no drawers. Designers….? So that parts easy.

Thanks again for all the responses. I'm thinking I have a few books to add to the christmass list too. In the words of Edna Mode, Success favors the prepared!

Do you remember the link for the Portland Community College video series? I go t their web site, but can't figure out where the video would be.

[Peter Quinn]

Do you remember the link for the Portland Community College video series? I go t their web site, but can't figure out where the video would be.

Mark, Its on YouTube, here's a link to the first chapter: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mBh7JMv_8DE&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmBh7JMv_8DE