What kind of wood as a finial on a desert ironwood vase?

[Brian Kent]

I turned a Desert Ironwood form last night - looks and turns just like cocobolo. I am on a break at work so I don't have a photo.

What kind of wood would you try as a light colored finial on dark brown to black ironwood?

I have tried several woods as finials but haven't found a good one yet. I will go by Rockler today. If they have something useful I'll try it. I have never seen holly at Rockler. Maybe sume curly maple?

Thanks for ideas.

Brian

[Dale Miner]

Maple will likely not give the contrast you are looking for. Also, finials are much easier and better turned from straight grained wood. Getting the grain to run as straight to the centerline of the finial helps with surface off the tool and holding of detail. Curly wood can be used, but it might give fits from the curl, and often times with the smaller section sizes of a finial, the curl becomes almost lost.

You can't go wrong with black.

[John Keeton]

Brian, as the ladies say - black goes with anything! And, it will let your form be the focal point. IMO, a lighter colored finial is best used on medium colored wood - maple burl, for example.

Curly maple is not a good choice for finials due to the undulating grain pattern. You want a wood with tight, straight grain.

[John Keeton]

Dale can type faster than I can on this phone!! But, at least we are consistent

[Brian Brown]

I agree with John on the black, especially if you have a lot of blacks in the DI wood. You don't have to use a black wood, you can "ebonize" it. I really like to use hard maple, (you can easily find a straight grain section), and ebonize with india ink. There are other ways to ebonize, just do a search here with the term ebonizing.

[Brian Kent]

It won't take much to dye this wood black. I read some responses in Rockler and refrained from buying anything else. Thanks for saving me money. I was really surprised how much they charge for Desert Ironwood. 2" x 2" x 6" for $24.99.

[Brian Kent]

None of the Desert Ironwood finials held up since they had swirly grain. They broke off at the cross grain areas. Then I found a piece of straight grain sycamore that has dried for a couple of months. I plan on ebonizing with India Ink, but wanted a photo of it with the wood un-dyed. And yes, I know this is pretty big for the form.

The whole thing is about 11-1/2" high, about 2-1/2" wide.

[Mel Fulks]

I don't think it's too big . Looks real good.

[Peter Blair]

Great Vase. I am not the turner many others here are but in my mind the finial is too long and not thin enough. When I view it I think it overpowers the vase. I like the general shape but it might work better if it was lots thiner at least down to the 'onion'.

[Brian Kent]

I agree, Peter. It's a courage thing. After losing several to cross grain, I stopped when I had the basic shape down.

I have 4 self-critiques here:
1) A little smaller overall. This one is 2/3 of the height of the vase and it could be closer 1/2.
2) More needle-like, A little harder wood, practice, and courage can help this.
3) I missed the transition angle between the vase and finial. I want the finial to start at the same angle the vase left off.
4) I was trying to get that bulb to sit all the way down in the flair but couldn't get there yet.

I am curious about if the impression of size will change with dying it black.

The successful parts for what I was trying to do:

1) It didn't break. That was a big thing for me.
2) I got the concave curve better on the base of the finial.
3) I repeated the feature at the top.
4) This is a shape I want to develop for awhile.

[Scott Hackler]

Brian, your starting to see and change your finial shapes to reflect curves and form ...so that is a great sign of progress. This one is way to tall for the form. Not sure of the ratio to form height to finial height, though. I always use form width to finial height to determine the appropriate finial height. For this vase form I would have suggested the same "style" of finial you've created, but 1/2 the current finial height and a tad thinner. Like mentioned before, finials are generally meant to adorn a beautiful form, not to overpower them.

Keep up the good work and enjoy the journey.

[John Keeton]

Brian, I think your "self-critique" is a pretty good one. Dyeing this one black will definitely modify the effect - making it appear somewhat more petite and reducing the impact of the lighter colored finial. I think you may now be able to see what I was saying about a lighter finial becoming the focal point - it is the first thing one notices when looking at this piece - not the effect one desires. The finial should be an embellishment - "a decorative detail or feature added to something to make it more attractive" - it should not compete with the form.

In addition to your comments, I would encourage you to strive for a smaller waist on the cove base. You did achieve a better curvature on this one, though as you note, a more horizontal transition in keeping with the flow off the shoulder would have been better. Doing that would have forced you to have a smaller waist if you maintained the correct curvature.

You might also consider a little more variance in the diameter of the cap on the top of the cove base, as compared to the diameter of the bulb/onion - larger or smaller, though in this case I think smaller might be better. Again, in an effort to let the bulb be the focal point of the finial. As you have them, they seem to compete.

The proportions of the finial seem a bit elongated to me, and in order to bring it more in proportion to the form, the spire could be shortened considerably, bringing the top embellishment down. IMO, it would flow better and that would also compel you to have a more sweeping curve coming off the bulb into the spire - more concavity.

You mention having the bulb "sit all the way down." In order to do that, you will need a much more aggressive curve (more rounded) on the bottom of the bulb. I don't recall what gouge you are using, but your tool availability may be somewhat limiting in making a sharp and deep undercut. I do that cut with a vortex tool that I made from a cheap spindle gouge - pics attached. Shown are a 1/4" and a 3/8". I now use only the 1/4". Also, these pics are old, and I now have a very polished underside on the tool as it makes for a much cleaner cut. Since the flute is not used in this tool, it could be easily made from drill stock.

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Use of this tool is limited - I use it only for making this type of deep cut. You will not be able to cut the rounded curve on the bulb with it - only the deep incised cut between the bulb and the top of the base - and other incised cuts, such as in the tip embellishment. With practice, it is possible to continue the curvature on the bulb into the incised cut. Present the tool slightly below center, and with the top, flat side toward the cut. You will cut only with the very tip. Flip it and make another perpendicular cut to form the flat top on the base. It is sharpened on the top face by honing it on a piece of 1200 grit sandpaper to a razor sharp edge. Since the use of the tool is so limited, sharpening is a rare need.

Hope this helps and I also hope my comments do not come across as critical in any way. You are progressing very well!

[Brian Kent]

Last comment first - I am receiving all of these comments as generous teaching - never as criticism.

I made this finial this morning after making my own observations, but before reading yours, Scott and John.

Scott, I am using a 3/8" spindle gouge. I have Thompson's 1/4" detail gouge on my Christmas list, which I would sharpen on the pointier side. Right now I am searching for a 1/4" spindle gouge that I can regrind into a vortex.

Now to go back and study everything you guys just said.

(also searching my stash for straight grained hardwoods)

edit: added a photo of the same finial ebonized with black shoe polish and cordovan leather dye.

[Mel Fulks]

I like proportion guides,too .But an obelisk is taller than an urn, both are useful forms. At some point your work will not stand alone in a photo,it will be part of a room. Hundred years from now it might be called "an unusually tall form for Kent". Catalog won't say its a lesser piece.

[Brian Kent]

Found the old 3/8" HSS spindle gouge. I'll see if these angles work for a vortex tool.

Also, I found some cut-offs of Padauk that are big enough for spindle practice, so I don't have to wait until a lumber run.

[John Keeton]

Brian, your vortex tool looks very well done - I think it will work. You might find the underside grind (cone) is a bit pointy - I have found a little bit of a convex cone works pretty well. Just know, however, that the first time you incorrectly introduce the tool to the wood, you will know it immediately - and, you won't forget the experience either!:o It is a mistake one usually only makes once.

[Brian Kent]

The Padouk let me get a bit thinner. The vortex tool helped, and I look forward some dedicated practice so I won't just use it like a sharp scraper.

[Paul Engle]

Nice work Brian, my suggestion would be Lacey Oak but it looks like you got it figured out. I thought at first, the final looked a bit too long but the more I look , I think the height is just about right . I did about the same thing , I ground down the sides of a 1/4" spindle gouge to make mine and it works great for detail items.