What do you charge when the customer provides the material?

[Lisabeth Shaffer]

I'm going to be engraving 3 compact mirrors on both sides and creating the design. I am new to posting on this forum. I have found many answers by perusing the other posts. I appreciate any help you can give. Thank you. Lisabeth

[Mike Null]

Lisabeth

Welcome to SMC. Yours is a very difficult question because, 1. you are creating the art; 2. we don't know the size of the engraving and 3. we can't ascertain the risk.

Most of us have an established hourly rate for creating art. We may charge by the time involved in doing the engraving including all preparation or we may have a fixed minimum charge (mine is $25). When engraving customer's materials I do not accept responsibility for replacement if something goes wrong. (it rarely does but there are jobs that can carry that risk)

Many on this forum are hobbyists and their rates tend to be lower than for those of us who operate an income producing business.

[Nicolas Silva]

Hello. In this case I charge the straight laser time prorated at $45/hr (75 cents/minute) that way I don't care what size it is.
Another measure I use is $8/sq inch. And depending on the art, you might have to add a bit.
-Nick

[Lisabeth Shaffer]

Mike,

Thank you for your reply.

I do know the size is 2.75" circle. I would have to make one design and just change the name and the second design would be the same for all three.
The customer paid about $20 for each compact. If I was experienced enough to know I probably wouldn't make a mistake, I would tell the customer I'm not responsible for replacement. However, since I'm just learning I don't think the customer should have to pay for my mistake (If I make one).

I am trying to make this an income producing business.

Since I'm just starting to use Corel x6 again it is taking longer than it will next time. I don't know what a reasonable amount of time is for the art work. I don't want to under bid.

Thank you for your help.

Lisabeth

[Mike Null]

Lisabeth

After 16 years in the business I rather delight in advising certain "customers" of my minimum after they have gone to some bargain store and purchased a gift of a pair of wine glasses for $4.00 (those were the nice ones) and expect to get them engraved for the same price.

I am a home based business and I really don't want retail customers. The rather high minimum pretty well eliminates them.

[Lisabeth Shaffer]

Lisabeth

I am a home based business and I really don't want retail customers. The rather high minimum pretty well eliminates them.

Good point!

Lisabeth

[Lisabeth Shaffer]

Thanks Nicolas.

Lisabeth

[Ross Moshinsky]

Like Mike, we are an engraviing/awards business. The difference is we are in a retail setting. My experience is to pretty much avoid engraving customer supplied items and try to put a plate on them as often as possible. You can spend an hour setting up the artwork and making a fixture to hold it and then maybe the item doesn't engrave well. I assume your product is made out of metal. Maybe cermark won't stick to it. Theoretically an item like that should be rotary or diamond drag engraved to limit the number of variables.

If the customer had 100+ items, I would give you diferent advice but for low quantites, it's impossible to turn a real profit in my experience. The price should be $70 setup for less than minimum and $10-$15 a piece to engrave with you taking no responsibility if it doesn't work out. That's what any ASI type company would charge.

[Dave Sheldrake]

I'm going to be engraving 3 compact mirrors on both sides and creating the design

The actual Mirrors Lis?

If they are metallised glass you could have problems, if you engrave from the back it will show from the front, if you engrave from the front (depending on what type of laser) you could damage the machine from backscatter.

I'm with Mike, jobs like these can turn into royal pains in the rear very quickly unless you know exactly what material you are engraving on to.

Same as Ross, engraving one off / two off low value items usually ends up costing more than the market / buyer will stand. If you under price you run the risk of setting your *price* for the same in future.(try getting more in future if the customer comes back, it rarely happens)

cheers

Dave

[Lisabeth Shaffer]

Thank you all for your responses. I will not be accepting a job with materials that aren't made specifically for engraving.

These are compact mirrors and the outside is made of silver plate.

I suppose my first question should have been, does Cermark work on silver plating?

I will tell the customer that I'm not responsible if anything goes wrong.

Next time I'll post BEFORE accepting the job!

Lisabeth

[Mike Null]

Lisabeth

I have had zero luck with Cermark on anything but stainless.

I do a lot of silver plate but always with my diamond drag machine.

[Joe Hillmann]

I really dislike jobs when the customer provides the item. They always bring in exactly the number of finished items the want so I don't have an extra to use as a test to get the settings an position right or in case one doesn't turn out properly. If you are using cirmark you have another problem of not knowing if the metal has some type of finish on it that needs to be removed first or if the cirmark will stick and hold up over time.

Since you are engraving both sides, if I did the work on my yag (which means I don't need cirmark and there is no chance of it not marking or rubbing of) I would charge $15-$20 for set up then $10 per marking location after that so the total for the job would be $75 or so. If it was during my slow time after Christmas I might charge less.

[Kev Williams]

I'll take anyone's customer-provided jobs! I've made a fair living engraving other people's stuff for almost 40 years. Injection molds, vacuum molds, operator panels, EDM electrodes, lens housings, valve covers, intake manifolds, trays, platters, bowls, bells, necklaces, bracelets, cheap, watches, very expensive watches, cameras, guns, knives, baseball bats, skis, golf clubs, pool cues, shoes, belts, wallets, saddles, purses, briefcases, notepads, dashboards, keycaps, keyfobs, dog tags, mirrors, cups, mugs, glasses, goblets, steins, chalices, rings, pens, iPads, iPhones, laptops, calculators...

No overhead is good overhead... :)

[Scott Shepherd]

Kev, post your address and phone number, I think about 100 people here, including myself would love to send those jobs to you :) I'm with the vast majority of others, most of the time, these jobs are hard to make money with.

I recall a lady calling years ago, asking for 2 name tags. I think we told her about $10 each. So she shows up, wants to see what her options are, then wants a dove on them, but doesn't have a dove. I search through my graphic files and find a dove, she's not sure about it, wants to see a sample. I engrave a sample, she doesn't like the dove, wants a different dove. Finally find a dove she likes, tell her to come back tomorrow to get them, she can't do that, needs to have them done right now. Okay, I'll do them now, despite having an appointment with a good customer that I'm now late for. She then says she only wants one.

In the end, it was 2 hours spent with this lady for 1 name tag. She was talking so much and I couldn't get her to pay and finish the transaction so I finally gave it to her and told her to have a nice day just to get her out the door.

2 hours for 1 name tag. Can't make money like that. The good news is that she said she was going to tell all her friends about us :) LOL :)

[Tim Bateson]

...I probably wouldn't make a mistake, I would tell the customer I'm not responsible for replacement. However, since I'm just learning I don't think the customer should have to pay for my mistake (If I make one)...

You'll see this debated in-depth here, but my take is you are ALWAYS responsible - regardless of any useless disclaimer. Legally - I doubt your disclaimer would hold water. On the other hand for good Customer Service - Without a doubt you have to take responsibility. NEVER under-estimate the power of word of mouth advertising. Good customer service pays dividends - word of bad customer service spreads even faster.


Now.. seeing as they are metal & not likely Stainless or Aluminum.... walk away from this one. You have to know what will and will not engrave with a CO2 laser.

[Lisabeth Shaffer]

Injection molds, vacuum molds, operator panels, EDM electrodes, lens housings, valve covers, intake manifolds, trays, platters, bowls, bells, necklaces, bracelets, cheap, watches, very expensive watches, cameras, guns, knives, baseball bats, skis, golf clubs, pool cues, shoes, belts, wallets, saddles, purses, briefcases, notepads, dashboards, keycaps, keyfobs, dog tags, mirrors, cups, mugs, glasses, goblets, steins, chalices, rings, pens, iPads, iPhones, laptops, calculators...

Kev

Could you give me an idea which materials you have used Cermark for engraving? Have you had success with silver plate? The list of metals that the Cermark will work on is extensive, but I'd like to know someone that has actually done it successfully! Thank you.

[Joe Hillmann]

I recall a lady calling years ago, asking for 2 name tags. I think we told her about $10 each. So she shows up, wants to see what her options are, then wants a dove on them, but doesn't have a dove. I search through my graphic files and find a dove, she's not sure about it, wants to see a sample. I engrave a sample, she doesn't like the dove, wants a different dove. Finally find a dove she likes, tell her to come back tomorrow to get them, she can't do that, needs to have them done right now. Okay, I'll do them now, despite having an appointment with a good customer that I'm now late for. She then says she only wants one.

In the end, it was 2 hours spent with this lady for 1 name tag. She was talking so much and I couldn't get her to pay and finish the transaction so I finally gave it to her and told her to have a nice day just to get her out the door.



Scott, I had a customer once do nearly the exact same thing, but instead of a dove she wanted Buckey the Badger playing a Sousaphone. She wasted over an hour of my time when I was rushing to get an order ready to ship. In the end I ended up giving her the item for half price because it didn't turn out (I warned her before I ran it it wouldn't engrave well)

[Dee Gallo]

Lisabeth,

I do a LOT of customer supplied pieces, vintage and rare pieces which could not be replaced for any amount of money. For this service, I charge a decent amount of money. For that amount of money, I MUST be sure there will be no mistakes, so there are some things I highly recommend if you are just starting out on this route:

1. Practice your skills until you have no doubt you can handle the work with your eyes closed.
2. Double and triple check your work EVERY single time you are about to press GO.
3. Run test burns on the piece using transfer tape to make sure placement is perfect and the design is going to do what you want exactly.
4. Check and double check your settings, your document setup, your line widths, your spelling, your placement, your focus, your lens/mirror cleanliness, and anything else you can think of.
5. If possible, run the job on a test substrate first.
6. Hold your breath, believe in your skills, press GO.

In the past 10 years I have made ONE mistake out of thousands of jobs on other people's materials. It made me sick and I almost quit. The customer was quite nice and understanding, she could still use the item so it really was not a total loss. But it made me fortify my self-checking even more.

Finally, there is no way I would take a silver job. Cermark is swell, I love the stuff, but not for silver... too unreliable for results. I would tell the customer to find a rotary engraver, then get yourself some cermark and learn how to control it before taking a job like that. It's fantastic for other metals, ceramic and glass.

That's my two cents, FWIW, dee

[Joe Hillmann]

Several people have suggested finding someone with a rotary engraver, someone with a yag or fiber laser would also mark the silver.

[Kev Williams]

As to "responsible"- I've dropped more than one customer who felt I should make 100% restitution for a part I messed up. I WILL however, pony up 50%, provided we're not talking $12,000 Rolex's or the like. It's called "share the risk"-- I'm taking a risk by even attempting to engrave your thing, but YOUR risk should at least be equal to mine, since you WANT it engraved, and can't do it yourself. If that isn't acceptable, the engraving charge will equal the cost of the part-- or walk away.

[Dave Sheldrake]

As to "responsible"- I've dropped more than one customer who felt I should make 100% restitution for a part I messed up. I WILL however, pony up 50%, provided we're not talking $12,000 Rolex's or the like. It's called "share the risk"-- I'm taking a risk by even attempting to engrave your thing, but YOUR risk should at least be equal to mine, since you WANT it engraved, and can't do it yourself. If that isn't acceptable, the engraving charge will equal the cost of the part-- or walk away.

Over here we don't have that option :(

Even if the Customer signed a waiver first it is un-enforcable under the "Unfair Contract Laws"

The UK is a legal minefield for companies, so many things must be complied with that some jobs just aren't possible.

cheers

Dave

[Nicolas Silva]

I really dislike jobs when the customer provides the item. They always bring in exactly the number of finished items the want so I don't have an extra to use as a test to get the settings an position right or in case one doesn't turn out properly. ....

yep, very good point. If you can get them to provide a 'burn' item, it will increase your chances of success. good luck!

[Kev Williams]

Kev

Could you give me an idea which materials you have used Cermark for engraving? Have you had success with silver plate? The list of metals that the Cermark will work on is extensive, but I'd like to know someone that has actually done it successfully! Thank you.

What it DOES work on: Stainless steel, most other steel (beware of non-stainless, Cermark can darken or quickly rust some metals), titianium, and PURE nickel. Those are the only metals I've had GOOD luck with. What HAS NOT worked for me: Nickel PLATING or chrome, gold, silver, copper, aluminum and bronze, including most "brass" aka "engravers brass" or "naval brass", which is actually bronze. That said, it doesn't work very well on 'real' brass either.

Note I'm using a 25w and a 40w laser. I'm interested to see what my new 80w laser will do with Cermark..

[Chuck Jarrett]

Kev, post your address and phone number, I think about 100 people here, including myself would love to send those jobs to you :) I'm with the vast majority of others, most of the time, these jobs are hard to make money with.

I recall a lady calling years ago, asking for 2 name tags. I think we told her about $10 each. So she shows up, wants to see what her options are, then wants a dove on them, but doesn't have a dove. I search through my graphic files and find a dove, she's not sure about it, wants to see a sample. I engrave a sample, she doesn't like the dove, wants a different dove. Finally find a dove she likes, tell her to come back tomorrow to get them, she can't do that, needs to have them done right now. Okay, I'll do them now, despite having an appointment with a good customer that I'm now late for. She then says she only wants one.

In the end, it was 2 hours spent with this lady for 1 name tag. She was talking so much and I couldn't get her to pay and finish the transaction so I finally gave it to her and told her to have a nice day just to get her out the door.

2 hours for 1 name tag. Can't make money like that. The good news is that she said she was going to tell all her friends about us :) LOL :)


Scott, That is so funny. I have been there and done that same sort of thing, but the way you tell it is just too good. I'm still laughing.