Belligerent sales people

[Dale Murray]

I am currently researching table saw options and decided to stop by a large tool store in the area - they carry Jet, Powermatic, Sawstop, Festool, etc (no, this is not associated with any mail order company you may be aware of) - and asked a few questions.

My questions are about quality of machine, stability, quality of cut, repeat-ability of cut, quality of service (if things break), etc.

Salesman 1 immediately tell me, aggressively and authoritatively, the only saw I want to consider is sawstop. If I buy some other saw I will not be able to sell it in a few years because it does not have a brake. I am opening myself up for liability. If I sell it I would be liable too. blah blah blah patents, blah blah people ignored him, blah blah legislation.

Mind you, HE NEVER ANSWERED MY INITIAL QUESTIONS but instead went into all the other crap.

That was irritating but I continued to talk with him and finally got him answering my questions and thats when I learned I would not get a cast trunnion unless I went to the ICS saw (an additional $1000).

Ok, so a $3000 Delta or Powermatic have cast trunnions, sawstop does not. Apple, Apple, Orange.

That was a bit annoying, I felt attacked and that my questions were not sufficiently answered. This store has three locations so I went another location the next day.

Same thing, looking at cabinet saws and considering Delta, Powermatic, and maybe sawstop. I said I know about the brake stuff and CPSC but I want to know about quality of machine, stability, quality of cut, repeat-ability of cut, quality of service (if things break), etc.

paraphrased

Salesman 2; "you dont care about these" - holding his hand up, palm out and all fingers extended? "These are not important to you?"

Me; Yes, they are important and as I stated I already know about the brake and the patents and the CPSC, etc. I also know I would have to spend an additional $1000 to get a cast trunnion from sawstop, which I am not ruling out but spending $3000 is a huge stretch for me, another grand may not happen.

S 2; your fingers are not worth $1000? You will save that on insurance premiums for your shop.

Me; Home shop, no insurance savings. Lets be honest, these are luxury item...

S 2; YOUR FINGERS ARE A LUXURY?!

Me; No, I like my fingers. I play piano. A $3000 cabinet saw in a home wood shop is a luxury item. $3000 is a significant amount of money and $4200 just may be out of the question. Lets face it, most accidents occur when people do not have any guards in place. In the past decade guards, riving knives, and dust collection have gotten a lot better.

S 2; If you buy a saw without a brake you would not be able to pass it on to your grand children because it does not have a brake.

Me; No grandchildren.S 2; You dont care about your kids hands?

Me; No children. Will not have children. Will not have grand children.

S 2 (dismissively says); Well then, get what you want. (turns his back and waives me off).



This is seriously obnoxious behavior from two separate sales people in two locations. In both cases neither actually addressed the questions I presented.

Seems Sawstop and Festool endorsers are hard core.
Last year I asked a salesperson at a different store about cordless drills.

Again, paraphrased:
Them: Festool.
Me: Way expensive.
Them: You dont care about high quality, has a great warranty?
Me: Some people cannot afford a Cadillac.
Them: This is not a Cadillac.
Me: In the drill world it is. Its $100 more than anything else I am aware of.

For the record I bought the Dewalt LI-ion brushless drill/driver set. Quite happy. And those two tools cost less than a single festool. Also, did not buy from that retailer.

I do not deny sawstop is a very interesting and compelling tool and Festool seem to be top notch but not everyone can afford them. If this is only one saw to consider then why stock Jet and Powermatic? If there is only one drill to consider then why stock Dewalt or Milwaukee or Makita?

Try selling the saw based on quality and engineering and not based on fear; fingers, childrens fingers, liability, ability to sell it in the future.

[Yonak Hawkins]

That was a fun story, Dale, and irresistable philosophy. Thanks for sharing it.

[Art Mann]

You have more patience than I do. The moment a salesman tries to take over the conversation and sell me something through fear or high pressure, I simply walk out the door. Another annoying situation is where the salesman tries to impress me with his product knowledge. I almost always thoroughly research high dollar items so that I already know a great deal about the product before I go in to look. I have caught salesmen who didn't know their product or just made stuff up several times. That is another reason for leaving without further discussion.

[Jerry Olexa]

You had a bad experience.. A table saw purchase is personal and what YOU want...not the salesman....Rise above it and make your own decision at your convenience..

[Rich Riddle]

Many of us go through the extremely opinionated sales folks who discuss table saws. Last year at a Woodworking show the Sawstop salesman was telling people he knew three friends who were woodworkers who cut their hands and then fell forward on the blades and were killed as a result. I asked their names. He said that was confidential. Yeah.

I looked at many saws including the Sawstop and ended up with a Hammer sliding table saw. Works great but takes a bit of adjusting to get used to using it. It's much safer for many cuts. If you wait for their sale prices, it will likely be in the range you are considering. Both Jet and Powermatic just went off sale a couple of days ago, so if you're headed in that direction, too bad you didn't look that way when the sale was happening.

We all have budgets and needs and do a needs/cost analysis. Some folks don't understand that.

[Anthony Whitesell]

I just turn around and make the purchase from someone else or somewhere else. This past summer I purchased a used car. I wanted and told the salesman up front "I am looking for a car with a standard transmission, cruise control, and not turbo charged. Preferably 4 door. I'm looking to complete the purchase by the end of June." The ones that had such a thing on the lot were great. The ones that could get one were OK. The ones that did not have and could not get were miserable. Sometimes I was afraid they were going to tackle me as I tried to leave. As for the last sentence, I still get phone calls if I'm looking for a car...6 months after the fact.

IIRC, Sawstop makes 3 saws, ICS, PCS, and contractor. Correct? Only the ICS has cast iron works? The PCS is aluminum?

[Brian Tymchak]

Both salesmen said you wouldn't be able to sell or pass the saw on because it doesn't have a brake? Any truth in that or was just more fear-mongering? Seems hard to believe that would be possible.

[Jerry Olexa]

Forgot to mention: There is a wealth of info on internet...Start with Google and conduct your own research..You then can be objective when looking at several sources and not influenced by an opinionated salesperson with his own personal motives...G'luck ..

[Mike Henderson]

Both salesmen said you wouldn't be able to sell or pass the saw on because it doesn't have a brake? Any truth in that or was just more fear-mongering? Seems hard to believe that would be possible.
Salespeople say all kinds of ridiculous things. In all markets. Even when the buyer is an expert they still say dumb, ridiculous things. I guess they think people will believe anything.

Mike

[Duane Meadows]

Wouldn't say it can't happen. It did happen with cribs that have adjustable(not bolted) sides!

[Dale Murray]

@ Jerry Olexa and Art Mann,
I am trying to make my own decision at my convenience but sometimes research requires seeing, touching, and asking about a product. It is darn right irritating when someone has an agenda that derails this process.



@ Anthony Whitesell,
It has been 25 years since I did anything in sales. Back then if I had a customer who did not already have an idea what equipment they wanted or a budget in mind I would show them the entry level item then the very top of the line item - they can see the extremes. This would usually inform them enough that I could guide them to the right product for their need. Same should be said for tools or other items.

I own bicycles that cost $3000 but if my neighbor asked me for advice on a bike I am not going to tell them they need to spend a minimum of $550. Maybe they only need a $200 bike.

The 3hp PCS (Professional Cabinet Saw) ranges from $2729-2999. Its in the area of the Unisaw and PM2000 and does not have a cast trunnion and is also about 200lbs lighter than those saws. The ICS (Industrial Cabinet Saw) does have a cast trunnion and is quite stout, it also starts at $3899 for the 3hp version. The mobile base for the PCS is $199, the ICS is $299.

A quick search and I find the 3hp PM2000 with integrated mobile base is $2959.



@ Brian Tymchak,
I think that is fear mongering. I could sell a used car without airbags, anti-lock brakes, or even seat belts if it is old enough and that was not standard equipment. My fathers 39 Buick has none of that stuff and he could sell it tomorrow if he wanted to.



Another question I now have, if its true the Sawstop tech would have only added $50-100 to the cost of a saw then why are their saws so much more expensive than comparable models? Fear tax?

[Dale Murray]

Both Jet and Powermatic just went off sale a couple of days ago, so if you're headed in that direction, too bad you didn't look that way when the sale was happening.


I am four to six months out from purchasing a saw, just doing leg work now.

[johnny means]

These are not the saws you're looking for.

[Anthony Whitesell]

@ Jerry Olexa and Art Mann,
Another question I now have, if its true the Sawstop tech would have only added $50-100 to the cost of a saw then why are their saws so much more expensive than comparable models? Fear tax?

That is the question. If you were to take away the brake on the Sawstop, do you believe the brake-less Sawstop is equal to the PM 2000 or Jet saw? If so, then the price difference is the cost of the brake system. The brake system must add at least that much ($50-100) to the price of the machine just in parts and labor. Heck the brake cartridge retails for $70 alone. Then you have to factor in the amortization of the cost of the initial design. Personally, I would estimate the systems parts and labor to add at least $200 to the cost of the machine and the remainder is NRE (non-recurring engineering). With that said, adding $200 to a $200 table saw is a lot of money (referring to the supposed push back of the saw manufacturer's regarding the increased cost and price if the brake system is mandated carte blanche).

[Mike Henderson]

That is the question. If you were to take away the brake on the Sawstop, do you believe the brake-less Sawstop is equal to the PM 2000 or Jet saw? If so, then the price difference is the cost of the brake system. The brake system must add at least that much ($50-100) to the price of the machine just in parts and labor. Heck the brake cartridge retails for $70 alone. Then you have to factor in the amortization of the cost of the initial design. Personally, I would estimate the systems parts and labor to add at least $200 to the cost of the machine and the remainder is NRE (non-recurring engineering). With that said, adding $200 to a $200 table saw is a lot of money (referring to the supposed push back of the saw manufacturer's regarding the increased cost and price if the brake system is mandated carte blanche).
The price of a product is not directly related to the cost of producing it. The price is what the company can get for it.

Mike

[Val Kosmider]

Thankfully we have the internet.

It is a shame, but many sales people are just so ignorant they drive you out of the store and literally force you to buy anonymously over the net.

I usually do a lot of research, talk with others, and try to make up my mind as to what make/model/etc. so that by the time I hit the store it really comes down to price. I have found that within certain categories (for instance, the table saw you mentioned) that they are all of high quality and will provide years of service) you can't make a 'bad' decision. I often use the FWW product reviews to narrow the field, and I have personally found them to be quite compatible with my own personal proclivities. If the store can't/won't offer a compelling price, I move along. Even when their pricing is out of whack with the 'net', I will ask them to match it; if they won't come close, I move along. I have to say, and this is not a plug for them, but my local Woodcraft store is great to deal with, has quality suggestions, does not try to sell me crap I don't want/need, and makes the whole experience a positive event with good pricing. As a result, I go out of my way to patronize them.


Now...about the brakes, etc. on the table saw....I have an old Craftsman with the blade guard removed, no splitter, and no brake. I bought it used, and when the time comes, I expect to sell it used. Does the salesman out there pushing the 'you can't sell that saw because it has no brake' have any idea how many millions of saws which are out there, like mine, that have NO safety features whatsoever? I doubt it....but it is a good 'sales' pitch for some idjit who swallows it hook, line and sinker.

BTW, I still have all my fingers.....

[Alan Sweet]

I agree about walking out on such salespeople. I have done so and left carts of selected goods sitting in the middle of aisle. The primary purpose of a salesperson is to serve the customer, not serve some part of the salesperson's internal agenda.

[johnny means]

The price of a product is not directly related to the cost of producing it. The price is what the company can get for it.

Mike

That is simply not true. Of course production cost has a great deal to do with market price. As do supply and demand. Surely, Sawstop could raise their prices and still sell saws. I would have paid 6k four mine, but someone else wouldn't. The manufacturer has to control for cost in order to bring supply, demand, and ROI into equilibrium. I'm sure Steve Gass would have loved to corner the market by selling his product at the same prices as his competition, but production cost wouldn't allow for acceptable margins at that price point.

[Brian Peters]

Forget it, if they rub you the wrong way just walk. It's still a tough economy and I am never in a rush to buy a tool, especially a pricey one. The talks you got on not being able to sell it in the next few years is utter BS. Anyone who thinks that is true has no idea what they are talking about. Most legislation in that regard always have a clause for existing and antique equivalents. Don't worry about old iron just yet. I would like to see that guy convince anyone at the OWWM group that that philosophy is accurate.

Sawstop makes a great saw, I might actually buy one in the next couple years but the bottom like is that shop safety is not exclusive to a table saw. In my opinion, in a busy shop, its the most likely source for major injuries, but not the only one. Hell even a hammer can be dangerous. You have to take that sales talk with a grain of salt. Woodworking is inherently dangerous, but you can do a lot to prevent injuries and minimize risk with using things like push blocks, push sticks, machine guards and the like. The best safety device in a shop is safety glasses and or dust masks!

DOn't ever be afraid of old iron, it is usually a bit to tinker with from the start, but once you dial it in, it is far better than any of the new stuff out there. Forget the new yellow powermatic, it's overpriced for what it is!

[Bill Whig]

Dale,

I met some people just like you did at Woodcraft (that would only talk about Sawstop).

I picked up a 10 year old Unisaw at an auction last week and feel good for having made up my own mind. Going forward, it will be my responsibility to be attentive while I am using it--as I am with my other power tools.

Good luck with your decision!

Bill Whig

[Mike Henderson]

That is simply not true. Of course production cost has a great deal to do with market price. As do supply and demand. Surely, Sawstop could raise their prices and still sell saws. I would have paid 6k four mine, but someone else wouldn't. The manufacturer has to control for cost in order to bring supply, demand, and ROI into equilibrium. I'm sure Steve Gass would have loved to corner the market by selling his product at the same prices as his competition, but production cost wouldn't allow for acceptable margins at that price point.
Ah, but it is. And I was reminded of that when I was working as a marketing person in semiconductors. A customer asked us for a special package and I priced it at cost plus some percent. My boss informed me that we did not set prices that way, we set them based on what the market will bear.

That same thing is true in most industries. Look at pharmaceuticals. The price you pay for a pill has very little to do with the cost to produce it. The companies will tell you that they need to make a lot of money to cover the cost of research, testing, etc. but the truth is that they price it to maximize their profit.

There's some point between selling low and getting volume and selling high and selling a lot less that will maximize their profit. That's where they want to be. They don't always hit it the first time and that's why you see price changes.

On certain goods, the company will price high when they first release a product because there are people who will purchase at almost any price. Once they sell to most of those people, they'll drop the price to get the next tier of buyers.

Pricing is complex but has little to do with cost, except to set the lower limit. The goal of pricing is to maximize profit.

Mike

[Paul Wunder]

Unfortunately, I have learned that I cannot rely on a salesman for product advice based on my needs. Even if a salesman is knowledgeable, he is driven to sell a given product based upon how he is paid. He may be paid on $ dollar volume, he may get a bonus from his employer or manufacturer for selling a particular brand or the retailer may have an excess or insufficient inventory situation which will lead them to push you in one direction or another. Some manufacturers provide better sales material than others..and most salesman do NOT really know how to sell.

[Charles Coolidge]

So...your local high pressure used car dealership went bust and they starting selling woodworking machines?

[Jeff Duncan]

Don't ask salespeople advice….that was your first mistake:rolleyes:

When they start offering advice contrary to what you know, and you keep listening, that's your second mistake;)

I used to sell tools and most guys in tool sales were there b/c it was a job, nothing to do with any knowledge of tools. At the time I was paid more than the assistant manager b/c I was the only one with actual hands on knowledge of how to use those tools. In short, sales people should not be your source of information regarding tool purchases, their job is to sell. You as a consumer should have all your information put together before ever talking to a sales person. At which point they are there to take your order and hopefully be competent enough to place it correctly….nothing more. That's not to say I'm defending the knuckle-heads you dealt with in any way! Just that a smart consumer can avoid that situation every time:)

good luck,
JeffD

[Harold Burrell]

Oh, man...cool stuff like that rarely happens to me.

I would have SO turned all of that around on those guys. First, I would have played dumb. You know, said things like, "Wow. Yeah. I care about my fingers! I had no idea!"

And then asked something like, "So tell me...if these other brands are so dangerous...why in the world would you sell them???"



Seriously...I would really be interested in knowing how much "commission" these stores make on SS compared to other brands.

[HANK METZ]

My standard reply to such is: are we gonna talk about what I want to buy or are we gonna talk about what you want to sell, in which case it’s gonna be a short discussion.

Sometimes you do have to get un- nice and be tough; some are idiots, some get the message.

[Erik Loza]

Don't ask salespeople advice….that was your first mistake:rolleyes:

When they start offering advice contrary to what you know, and you keep listening, that's your second mistake;)

I used to sell tools and most guys in tool sales were there b/c it was a job, nothing to do with any knowledge of tools. At the time I was paid more than the assistant manager b/c I was the only one with actual hands on knowledge of how to use those tools. In short, sales people should not be your source of information regarding tool purchases, their job is to sell. You as a consumer should have all your information put together before ever talking to a sales person. At which point they are there to take your order and hopefully be competent enough to place it correctly….nothing more. That's not to say I'm defending the knuckle-heads you dealt with in any way! Just that a smart consumer can avoid that situation every time:)

good luck,
JeffD

Just my 2-cents, which anyone is free to accept or reject as they please: Sure, there are plenty of high-pressure, less-than-knowledegable sales people out there but there also many of us who are legitimate advisors, and fortunate enough to be able to make a living by getting folks into equipment which will improve their experience/safety/interface/etc. Sure, some folks like having "all the info available to them" without ever having to speak to a sales rep but I can tell you that in the ten years I have been doing this, I have been thanked many times for offering a solution which the customer never would have thought of on their own from just a bunch of literature or data sheets. There will always be high pressure tactics in any sales-driven industry but don't be afraid to talk to the rep. You can always walk away/hang up and who knows? You might be pleasantly surprised or get a deal you didn't expect. Again, just my experience.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[HANK METZ]

Ah, but it is. And I was reminded of that when I was working as a marketing person in semiconductors. A customer asked us for a special package and I priced it at cost plus some percent. My boss informed me that we did not set prices that way, we set them based on what the market will bear.

That same thing is true in most industries. Look at pharmaceuticals. The price you pay for a pill has very little to do with the cost to produce it. The companies will tell you that they need to make a lot of money to cover the cost of research, testing, etc. but the truth is that they price it to maximize their profit.

There's some point between selling low and getting volume and selling high and selling a lot less that will maximize their profit. That's where they want to be. They don't always hit it the first time and that's why you see price changes.

On certain goods, the company will price high when they first release a product because there are people who will purchase at almost any price. Once they sell to most of those people, they'll drop the price to get the next tier of buyers.

Pricing is complex but has little to do with cost, except to set the lower limit. The goal of pricing is to maximize profit.

Mike

Some years ago the company I worked for bought motors from Emerson’s specialty division. They knew to the penny what they could stick us for and not kill the goose laying the golden egg. That is the power of big companies that have budget analysts doing research and set pricing for their goods, not supply and demand; that aspect really does play a minor role.

[Stephen Cherry]

If you have a little time, why not buy used. For example, on the shicago criagslist there is a unisaw that looks like it has been used maybe twice. Plus, the sawstops come up used.

As for the safety aspects, I'm old enough that I'd rather just have the money, but for young people, the brake makes perfect sense.

[David Hawkins]

It sounds like a script a bean counter wrote to get big commissions.

[Peter Quinn]

Oh, man...cool stuff like that rarely happens to me.

I would have SO turned all of that around on those guys. First, I would have played dumb. You know, said things like, "Wow. Yeah. I care about my fingers! I had no idea!"

And then asked something like, "So tell me...if these other brands are so dangerous...why in the world would you sell them???"



Seriously...I would really be interested in knowing how much "commission" these stores make on SS compared to other brands.


That would have been my approach….."I'm going to buy one of these saws that the company you work for and its attorneys has in their infinite wisdom chosen to offer for sale", and when/if I cut off a digit…I'm going to sue you and them for offering for sale unsafe products. They surely can't claim they hadn't heard of saw stop seeing its for sale here. Is not their offer for sale a pro facto endorsement of the products worth and safety? Are they in the business of maiming customers? WHy are these machines even on the floor if they are so worthless and dangerous? I'd like to speak to the manager of this facility immediately to voice OUR concerns about the dangerous conditions in this store…..clearly they are attempting to unload their last stock of unsafe antiquated dangerous goods at my expense and I want to recommend you get a commendation for making me aware of the situation!

Yea…if that guy and I had met it wouldn't have been his favorite day at work, of that I'm sure. At least the management would be well apprised of the type of attitude and info he is spreading in their name. Luckily you are entitled to the two step veto. After having a little fun at their expense you can just walk away. I've gotten some of the dumbest advice or non information from sales people at times, as Eric notes though, they are not all bad, and some can be a great asset and wealth of information. I like to start out asking a simple question, often one to which I am already fairly certain of the answer regarding fact more so than opinion. And if the answer stinks….well it never usually gets better as things progress. On the bright side I don't think you can go wrong with any of the choices you listed, so I'm certain beyond doubt you will end up with a great saw when you find the right vendor.

[Charles Coolidge]

Now that I'm in my 50's my standard response is, "son I was (fill in the blank) before you were born"

[Mike Heidrick]

I am in Bloomington IL if you want to come crawl all over an ICS and push some wood through one. Champaign IL has CU woodshop (Rockler stoore, dream shop that is a 10K buy in for teh community, and then the new school) as well and they sell all the Rockler saws and are SUPER SUPER nice guys. They ahave all teh saws under power for you to try out in a HUGE shop. The owners there are all well off and created that place and the school just to have fun and get with the community and do some woodworking. Its a sweet gig. Richard Coers has taught there. Anyway just some other IL options.

Guessing Berlands?

[Phil Thien]

Ah, but it is. And I was reminded of that when I was working as a marketing person in semiconductors. A customer asked us for a special package and I priced it at cost plus some percent. My boss informed me that we did not set prices that way, we set them based on what the market will bear.


Exactly right, Mike. Manufacturing is not wholesale or retail, it isn't cost plus.

[Ray Newman]

You need to “play” their sales game, but on your terms.

Go along with what they say, have them draw up the sales slip, etc. Then ask to see the manger as you want to inform him how helpful the sales staff are. When he comes over, show him what you were going g to buy, then tell him you are not going to buy it, and the reason(s) why. That really gets management’s attention!

[Frederick Skelly]

Man oh man. This is like going to buy a new car. You are far more patient than me. Id have gone to the manager and then left the store.

Like everyone else said - buy the saw that suits YOU. Dont worry about re-selling it or passing it to kids.

Good luck Dale. I feel for you.
Fred

[Dale Murray]

If you have a little time, why not buy used. For example, on the shicago criagslist there is a unisaw that looks like it has been used maybe twice. Plus, the sawstops come up used.

As for the safety aspects, I'm old enough that I'd rather just have the money, but for young people, the brake makes perfect sense.

Two reasons I am reluctant to go used:
1 - I dont have a truck and we both know craigslist is first come first serve. So I would have to go see it, then arrange for someone with a truck then talk them into helping me move the beast. I moved here a few years ago and only have two connections to people with trucks and reluctant to ask - we are not that close.

2 - Dust collection, riving knives, and guards have improved over the past 5-10 years.

[Dale Murray]

Guessing Berlands?

BINGO! Same thing at two locations.

[paul cottingham]

These are not the saws you're looking for.
Nicely, played, sir. Nicely played indeed.

[Ron Kellison]

Unfortunately, I have learned that I cannot rely on a salesman for product advice based on my needs. Even if a salesman is knowledgeable, he is driven to sell a given product based upon how he is paid. He may be paid on $ dollar volume, he may get a bonus from his employer or manufacturer for selling a particular brand or the retailer may have an excess or insufficient inventory situation which will lead them to push you in one direction or another. Some manufacturers provide better sales material than others..and most salesman do NOT really know how to sell.

If you get the chance you should wander into a Lee Valley store and chat up the sales staff. I think you would be impressed with their product knowledge and capacity for good advice! I've never met a pushy member of the floor staff and no one works on commission or reaching a sales target.

[Stephen Cherry]

Two reasons I am reluctant to go used:
1 - I dont have a truck and we both know craigslist is first come first serve. So I would have to go see it, then arrange for someone with a truck then talk them into helping me move the beast. I moved here a few years ago and only have two connections to people with trucks and reluctant to ask - we are not that close.

2 - Dust collection, riving knives, and guards have improved over the past 5-10 years.

Then you don't want the saws that you have mentioned, in my opinion. The euro saws were built ground up with safety in mind. Hammer, minimax, would the first place to look. I have dealt with the Felder (hammer) people, and they are nice. And it seems like the minimax crew would be the same. If you look at safety as a group of features, I think that the euros win hands down.

That said, I'd still look for used. Home depot has pickup trucks for rent. And don't rule out the possibility of a combination machine popping up- they do on a regular basis.

[Jeff Duncan]

I realize after reading Erik's response I may have been a little too harsh and even insulting with my former reply. I was thinking mostly about retail stores and my experiences with them when I wrote my response. And certainly there are quality sales people out there if you look hard enough. But I will amend my statement and say the sales persons I've dealt with on a more professional basis, guys who don't necessarily work in retail stores, but rep for tool manufacturers or importers etc, have been much more helpful and knowledgeable. I've still run into some duds, but I think the odds are much higher of finding knowledgable guys, I suspect since there is a lot more training involved? Whatever the reason though there is a significant difference between guys like Erik who rep a company and know their line inside and out, and a guy working at the local brick and mortar who sell a variety of competing manufacturers and maybe know a little about each one. Unfortunately I think most guys buying smaller home shop machinery don't have access to reps like Erik, except for the few that participate online. Anyway I apologize if I have offended anyone as I should have been more careful with my reply:o

I still firmly believe one has to do their homework first and know as much as possible before hand. Online is a great way to gain a lot of insight from people that may own the machine or a similar one already. Once your armed with information you are prepared for dealing with sales people and can easily flush out how knowledgable they are with a couple easy questions.

Lastly, I'm a big believer in used equipment. I'm coming from a different place as I use my equipment to make a living, but I think used can be good for anyone. My feeling is you can get a lot more bang for your buck buying used than you can new. Which leaves you extra to buy other things for the shop. And FWIW you don't need a truck to buy smaller equipment. If you have a trailer hitch you can rent a trailer for under $30 and pick up your new toy! If you don't have a hitch they're pretty inexpensive to put on even smaller cars, and especially if your thinking of buying additional equipment down the road will really be a benefit. I have a truck but I don't buy a lot of equipment that will fit in it anymore:o So when I have to move a 2k lb. shaper, I rent a larger trailer for something like $50 and I'm good to go:D That's not to say buying new for other reasons like the riving knife or brake or whatever the reason isn't a perfectly valid point. Just that you have options either way;)

good luck,
JeffD

[Paul Wunder]

If you get the chance you should wander into a Lee Valley store and chat up the sales staff. I think you would be impressed with their product knowledge and capacity for good advice! I've never met a pushy member of the floor staff and no one works on commission or reaching a sales target.

Ron, I have had very pleasant email and web experiences with Lee Valley, as have most people. Now, if only you Canadian folk can convince Rob to open a U.S. store in, say, Connecticut, I no doubt would change my opinion on my experiences with salesmen.

Thanks

[Erik Loza]

No worries, Jeff... :)

I'm a sales guy for a living but also buy things from sales people, just like everyone else. I can pretty much tell right off the bat how the overall experience will be within the first few moments of any introduction. I know, for example, that I will probably be happy with the negotiations if:

1.) I get asked very specific questions about my needs
2.) I get presented a range of options/solutions

I agree with everyone else: Nobody wants their buying experience to be like some infomercial blast to their face. I got up with my wife and walked out of a car dealership once. You always have that option. On the other hand, though, I do run into folks once in while who seem to have a defensive attitude right off the bat. I never really know what it is that got them to that state in the first place but what I can say is that in those instances, they never seem to be satisifed with the outcome, whatever that might be. Point being that it takes two to make a successful negotiation and there's no need to feel threatened by any sales rep. as long as you remember that YOU are always in control.

At least that is how I feel.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Rich Engelhardt]

Point being that it takes two to make a successful negotiation and there's no need to feel threatened by any sales rep. as long as you remember that YOU are always in control.
There's where the conflict enters...
Exceptional sales people are always the ones in control - as they should be.

Think about this with your "sales person's hat" on and not your "customer hat".

A typical customer is going to buy how many large stationary machines in their lifetime?
One, two, ten?
For discussion's sake, let's say ten.

As a salesman, you'll negotiate/work at least that many "deals" in a week.
In a month, you'll work more deals than any four people will in their life.

In a year, you'll works as many deals as the population of a decent sized town.
Experience is always going to be on your side.
(Not to drift too far OT - but - when someone says they have a "system to beat a car dealer" I always chuckle because there's nothing they haven't seen a few thousand times already).

The real trick with sales is making the customer feel they've been in control.
That always equates to a happy customer & more money in the sales person's pocket.

FWIW - I had a pretty lackluster career in sales because I couldn't control the situation as well as I should have.

[Harold Burrell]

when someone says they have a "system to beat a car dealer" I always chuckle because there's nothing they haven't seen a few thousand times already).

I don't worry too much about trying to beat the salesman. I just try and make sure he doesn't beat me.

[Erik Loza]

....Think about this with your "sales person's hat" on and not your "customer hat"....

Rich, I don't disagree with anything you said. To go a step further, it might surprise folks to know that there have been plenty of times where it has been me who got up and walked away from the table. A successful negotiation means that both sides walk away satisfied. The sales professional is compensated for their time and the customer feels they have received the value they expected from the transaction. You are correct: A sales professional will do more of this in a month than the average consumer might undertake in their lifetime but on the other hand, I have lost track of how many times someone considered "negotiation" to mean that the sales professional receives NOTHING in terms of compensation, which is unfair.

I purchased a new lens for my DSLR not too long ago from the local camera place. I could have bought it online and saved $50 but to be honest, I appreciated the fact that a sales associate there let me handle it, gave me their opinion and what the customer feedback was. So, I felt like it was the right thing to do to support them with my business. maybe it is only me but I have no problem paying extra for something if I can see the element of value in it. And maybe this is where some of these reps the OP mentioned are dropping the ball. There is value in good service and and in involving the customer in the solution but you probably don't get that with a "turn-and-burn" mentality. As always, just my 2-cents.

Erik Loza
Minimax USA

[Ron Kellison]

Ron, I have had very pleasant email and web experiences with Lee Valley, as have most people. Now, if only you Canadian folk can convince Rob to open a U.S. store in, say, Connecticut, I no doubt would change my opinion on my experiences with salesmen.

Thanks

Bouncing back and forth between "retirements" I've taken advantage of the opportunity and worked for Lee Valley at least 3 times. The most recent experience lasted 18 months in their main distribution warehouse. It was an opportunity to put my hands on every tool LV sell and put quite a few of them in my workshop. The company is family owned, cares about what they sell and the customer experience is second to none. There are any number of folks on staff who live, breathe and think about tools.

[John Zeitner]

I had a similar experience with a salesperson when I went shopping for a cheap drum sander. Told the guy I was getting too much chip out with my 13" Delta planer and wanted an inexpensive drum sander. He TOLD me that what I really needed was a planer with a spiral cutter head. After a bit more listening to his pitch I reluctantly agreed to try the planer but only because they offered a 30 day satisfaction guarantee. I go home and try this planer out and it is worse than my old one. Granted it wasn't working as hard to plane the wood but the finish was worse. Way more chip out. I took it back along with samples of the quality from my old planer and the new machine he sold me, showing the obvious quality reduction and the guy was upset with me for returning it.

The stupid thing is that the planer was 1/3 the cost of the sander I was looking at. In the end I got a sander from somewhere else and it was exactly what I wanted in the first place. No more chip out!!!!

SALESMEN!!!!

[Dale Murray]

I dont know that I have ever started a thread on any forum that has left me feeling as positive as this one has; a very nice, respectful and thoughtful dialog. I really appreciate it.

To touch on a few points brought by others:
- Sliders,
They do seem safer but they appear to take up significantly more space than the traditional table saws I am considering. In my case I am using half of a two car garage (total area is 24'x19') as my machine area, hand work and assembly will be in the basement (same level as garage). Currently we own one car so using half is not an issue but eventually I will need to park a second car in there and will want to move the saw so I can. The garage is attached, heated, air conditioned, and insulated.
- Car does not have a trailer hitch and is really not something I would feel comfortable using as a tow vehicle.
- Truck rentals, I could do that. Just never really think about it. I would still need a second set of hands to load and unload the beast.

The recurring theme of do your homework, that is what I was attempting to do. Eric mentioned buying a camera lens; I am a professional photographer. Cameras and lenses have oodles and oodles of information available from the manufacturer. I can look at manufacturer supplied charts showing me how many elements a lens has, what kinds of glass and coatings those lenses have, what type of motor, magnesium, plastic, polycarbonate, what filter sizes are required. Camera bodies, megapixels, construction, shutter speeds, etc etc etc.

If I wanted to read everything available from canon about a 5dmkIII it could take me hours to read. Delta, Powermatic, Sawstop it would take minutes. I went so far as to download the manuals from the three manufacturers, still felt a bit empty. For example, what diameter wheels are on the integrated wheels of a PM2000?

This should not be hard. I should not have to mine the internet for information when it comes to spending $3000 on ANYTHING.

I really do appreciate the quality of responses I have received and believe this has been a productive dialog. Maybe a few store owners are reading this and thinking about how they conduct business.

[scott spencer]

That would irk me for sure. Next time that happens, ask the salesman how often he'll be using YOUR saw...... :D

[glenn bradley]

IIRC, Sawstop makes 3 saws, ICS, PCS, and contractor. Correct? Only the ICS has cast iron works? The PCS is aluminum?

We should be careful about spreading bad data. Even the contractor saw has a cast iron trunnion. From Saw Stop's site:

"The specifications on this Contractor Saw are without par. Solid cast-iron trunnion and table deliver an unmatched stability that’s enhanced by the poly v-ribbed drive belt."

The PCS is a saw built to complete in the $3000 marketplace. The trunnion is a combination of cast iron and steel parts. It is not the familiar one-large-piece yoke that we see so often in this category of saw but, it is performing an enhanced service (cost and function-wise). The ICS is the flagship and is quite a beast for a home shop. The PCS has served thousands of hours in schools, prisons, and pro shops. The way we love to flag weaknesses, I imagine if the PCS trunnion had problems we would all be hearing / talking about it by now. Look how we brutalized the Powermatic drill press ;).

And Oh My Gosh, I sound like a Saw Stop / Festool / EZ Smart nut :D:D:D. That was not my intention. I just think it is smart for all of us to get the right information out there and not just repeat what salespeople say :).

[Rich Engelhardt]

I have lost track of how many times someone considered "negotiation" to mean that the sales professional receives NOTHING in terms of compensation, which is unfair.
hehe - yeah,,,there's quite a few of them out there like that ;).

[Ray Newman]

Something else to remember when negotiating on price: "Beware of the party that says he will meet you half way -- he is a poor judge of distance"

[Bill Whig]

I have a hunch if we could get glimpse of the relative profit margins and commissions on selling a Delta, Powermatic and Sawstop table saws that the behavior that has been discussed would make perfect sense. Economic principles apply not only to consumers, but to salespeople and retailers too! Maybe the market will fix itself. But if selling "by fear" works, then we will probably see more of it.

How about "A life-insurance policy with every piece of machinery"--to the original owner only. They can even use a SSN# as the serial#of a machine. :)

[Greg Portland]

The trunnion is a combination of cast iron and steel parts. It is not the familiar one-large-piece yoke that we see so often in this category of saw
I would add that while this is a data point the buyer should be more concerned about how the saw performs. If a manufacturer makes a low vibration saw I could care less what materials are used... especially since the "state of the art" cast iron trunnion has been around since the start of the last century.

[John Coloccia]

I have a hunch if we could get glimpse of the relative profit margins and commissions on selling a Delta, Powermatic and Sawstop table saws that the behavior that has been discussed would make perfect sense. Economic principles apply not only to consumers, but to salespeople and retailers too! Maybe the market will fix itself. But if selling "by fear" works, then we will probably see more of it.

How about "A life-insurance policy with every piece of machinery"--to the original owner only. They can even use a SSN# as the serial#of a machine. :)

It's been a while since I checked, but my memory is that profit on SS and related equipment is pretty lousy, actually. That said, it was practically the only table saw my local Woodcraft stocked because by and large it was the only saw people actually bought.

Anyhow, I really hate aggressive salespeople, and I've learned to go against my polite nature and just rudely cut them off with a quick, "I'm not here for a debate. We're doing this my way, or not at all.", at the first sign of trouble. Most of the time, they say, "OK! I'm here to help", and sometimes they say something rude and that's that. I really hate doing that, but I just can't stand the aggravation of arguing with salesmen anymore.

[Mark Blatter]

Ah, but it is. And I was reminded of that when I was working as a marketing person in semiconductors. A customer asked us for a special package and I priced it at cost plus some percent. My boss informed me that we did not set prices that way, we set them based on what the market will bear.

That same thing is true in most industries. Look at pharmaceuticals. The price you pay for a pill has very little to do with the cost to produce it. The companies will tell you that they need to make a lot of money to cover the cost of research, testing, etc. but the truth is that they price it to maximize their profit.

There's some point between selling low and getting volume and selling high and selling a lot less that will maximize their profit. That's where they want to be. They don't always hit it the first time and that's why you see price changes.

On certain goods, the company will price high when they first release a product because there are people who will purchase at almost any price. Once they sell to most of those people, they'll drop the price to get the next tier of buyers.

Pricing is complex but has little to do with cost, except to set the lower limit. The goal of pricing is to maximize profit.

Mike

I went to work for my father in the late 80's. Part of my job was selling, which I had never done before. I asked him about calculating the cost of service, plus how to price things out. His only comment was 'Charge all that the traffic will bear, without stopping the traffic.' His reasoning explained why we had some customers paying 25% over cost and others paying 60% over cost. Cost generally only impacts the lowest price you can sell for, but it no way regulates the upper limit.