Vintage restoration burnout

[Curtis Niedermier]

Before I post this, a little background is in order. I was introduced to woodworking by my grandfather, a finish carpenter and home builder, as a child. His theory on woodworking was always to keep it simple and easy - in other words, there were no dovetails, hand planes, high-end chisels, etc. After that, I learned some woodworking in high school shop classes and by tinkering in my dad's garage, but then left it to pursue a career and other hobbies.

Flash forward to last winter. I've been on this "why buy it when you can build it" kick lately, and it's gotten me re-interested in working wood. I started buying some vintage hand tools and working in a spare bedroom/office. Then my new wife and I moved into a house in the spring, and I now have a small shop space in a garage. I really enjoy using hand tools and learning traditional joinery, so I've stuck with it, and really the only power tools I use are a bandsaw and cordless drill. Occasionally I borrow a planer to save some time. I'm really interested in building furniture that will last long enough for my grandkids to pass it down.

Now, here's the point of the post. My hand tool collection is a mix of modern and vintage tools. I have spent many hours refurbishing vintage tools and "tuning" them up for work. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of it. To me, grinding and lapping and de-rusting are not fun. Working wood is fun. And I never seem to get the results that I'm after when I restore or use some vintage tools. I'll pick up my Stanley 607 and be left scratching my head about why the results aren't where I think they should be. Granted, I'm no expert, so I'm sure I'm making mistakes, but when I pick up a new Veritas plane I'm amazed at how easy it is to use, and how great the results can be right off the bat. It's like the learning curve is minute compared to using the vintage plane. Keep in mind that each new tool I buy is a tool I have to learn to use, because I'm new to this. And many techniques I perform are completely new, so I'm learning those as I go as well. I just believe the modern high-quality tools are better for someone like me.

I'm basically at the point where, unless the vintage tool is in prime shape and ready to work, I'm just not interested. I know I could buy like-new vintage tools or restored vintage tools from some dealers, but at the prices they want, I'd just as soon buy a new one.

Obviously, some vintage tools are much simpler to set up and use than hand planes. I have some vintage chisels, spoke shaves and scraper planes that I love. But as far as the hand planes go, I'm leaning toward swapping out all my vintage planes for new ones, save maybe a No. 5 that I use as a scrub plane. Same goes for joinery planes.

I'm curious if anyone else feels the same way. I just don't want to spend any more Saturdays restoring planes. I want to make things out of wood, instead of trying to breathe new life into old metal. By the way, I am in awe of the folks who can make those old tools sparkle and sling feathery shavings. I just don't think that'll ever be me.

Thanks for reading along. Hopefully I'll have more worthwhile posts to share with everyone in the future.

[Chuck Nickerson]

I have many cubic feet of vintage tools I thought I was going to restore: planes, braces, bits (shell, spoon, nose, etc.).
I've sent some time at it but the bug hasn't fully bitten me yet. Once I've built way through the furniture backlog, it all awaits me.

Or there will be a heck of a sale someday.

[glenn bradley]

Some like to restore tools, some like to restore tools and use them, some like to just use them. I enjoy a bit of fettling with an emphasis on the "bit of" :). If I'm not gonna fix 'em up I try to send them down the road to someone who will.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

It's a time vs money thing. For me, a lot of my vintage tools came to me when the first was a lot easier to come by than the second. I still enjoy the using over the tuning, but sometimes you have to make do. As I realize I need a lot fewer tools than I once thought, my urge to collect has been racked down a few notches.

I certainly think there's something to be said for starting with a tool category with at least some experience on a well-tuned example or a new tool, even if that's just an little while at something like a Lie Nielsen event. Just picking up a new tool from Lee Valley can go a long way towards understanding. I spent too long thinking I understood handplanes and understood sharp over and over before I got it right. Saws are another one - it's easy to write off western saws, or even handsaws in general, if all you've had are crummy experiences with dull tools or saw-shaped objects. I'd never set someone off to make woodwork with a rust Stanley from a yard sale and no idea where to go.

As I gain experience, I get better at knowing what I need, and recognizing something that's worth tuning up. Not bringing home a uselessly kinked saw, or a chisel that's going to take all day to lap to usefulness is the first part of getting a good deal.

I still think used planes are a great deal. A lot of planes are in perfectly workable condition, and you can shortcut the majority of the fettling process and still save a lot of money over a new tool by just grabbing a replacement blade and breaker from Lee Valley.

And then there are some tools that are just going to be a whole lot easier to get vintage than new - molding planes are the obvious standout here, but I'd rather use a wooden moving fillester plane than a metal bodied tool, same for ploughs. I don't know who makes a full length handsaw anymore. I use my brace and bit and eggbeater much more than the powered drills, and the new ones leave a lot to desire.

In the end, though, it's just really personal calculus we each have to make for ourselves, and I don't think anyone can hold it against anyone else for making the choices that suit them best.

Certainly, as well, location makes as much as a difference as financial/time circumstances. Tuning tools doesn't do you any good if you can't find them.

[Hilton Ralphs]

My strategy is to buy vintage tools and then determine if I will use this particular type/style of tool long term. If the tool is needed but too finicky to use/setup then I sell it and buy a new one.

[Jim Koepke]

Before I post this, a little background is in order.

[snip]

I've been on this "why buy it when you can build it" kick lately, and it's gotten me re-interested in working wood.
[snip]
I'm really interested in building furniture that will last long enough for my grandkids to pass it down.

Now, here's the point of the post. My hand tool collection is a mix of modern and vintage tools. I have spent many hours refurbishing vintage tools and "tuning" them up for work. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of it. To me, grinding and lapping and de-rusting are not fun. Working wood is fun. And I never seem to get the results that I'm after when I restore or use some vintage tools. I'll pick up my Stanley 607 and be left scratching my head about why the results aren't where I think they should be. Granted, I'm no expert, so I'm sure I'm making mistakes, but when I pick up a new Veritas plane I'm amazed at how easy it is to use, and how great the results can be right off the bat. It's like the learning curve is minute compared to using the vintage plane. Keep in mind that each new tool I buy is a tool I have to learn to use, because I'm new to this. And many techniques I perform are completely new, so I'm learning those as I go as well. I just believe the modern high-quality tools are better for someone like me.

I'm basically at the point where, unless the vintage tool is in prime shape and ready to work, I'm just not interested. I know I could buy like-new vintage tools or restored vintage tools from some dealers, but at the prices they want, I'd just as soon buy a new one.

Obviously, some vintage tools are much simpler to set up and use than hand planes. I have some vintage chisels, spoke shaves and scraper planes that I love. But as far as the hand planes go, I'm leaning toward swapping out all my vintage planes for new ones, save maybe a No. 5 that I use as a scrub plane. Same goes for joinery planes.

I'm curious if anyone else feels the same way. I just don't want to spend any more Saturdays restoring planes. I want to make things out of wood, instead of trying to breathe new life into old metal. By the way, I am in awe of the folks who can make those old tools sparkle and sling feathery shavings. I just don't think that'll ever be me.

Thanks for reading along. Hopefully I'll have more worthwhile posts to share with everyone in the future.

Curtis,

You have come across a situation that many of us have faced... That of having to choose between having the time or having the financial abilities to pursue one's tool accumulation ambitions.

In my situation there was far more time than finances. So buying the least expensive tools available meant a lot of time spent fixing old tools. It has also allowed me to earn a little extra cash at times.

When my journey of woodworking began, I didn't even know of the current providers of quality woodworking tools. A junior high school general shop class was about all the training I had. Fortunately the only way to go was to get better. After a few years of struggling along "building instead of buying" this site was found during a search on using Boiled Linseed Oil. My learning curve took a new steep trajectory and is still climbing.

At one time my thought was, "if I can do it, anyone can do it," when it comes to fixing and tuning old planes. Since I have learned that my love of tinkering is likely what makes it easy for me and those who would rather not tinker with things will likely never find the same joy of metallic rehabilitation.

You mention that your 607 isn't working to your expectations. That is a whole new discussion in itself. For my purpose my larger planes are not expected to take "sub thou" shavings like is expected from a smoother. Maybe a little more detail on the 607 will be responded to with help to get it working to your expectations.

On the other side of this is you are interested more in working wood than working (fighting with) metal, your money will be well invested in buying quality tools to help you get better results in your limited shop time.

Even though my preference is for older tools, it is doubtful that anyone will fault you buying new in order to spend more time working wood. Some may be jealous, but that is only natural.

jtk

[Steve Rozmiarek]

I'm the exact opposite, but completely understand if you want new. To me, the power tools are the new tools that are intended to make efficient work of a set of cabinets or whatever, the hand tools are more of a cathartic exercise. I find pleasure in using the same tools that built the beautiful old furniture that I admire, but I get much less pleasure from using a modern derivative of the same tool. To me, resurrecting an old neglected plane is part of the fun, however, there is a limit. I will not lap a plane, I think it's a ridiculous waste of time, and if a plane seriously needs it, its wall art, not a tool, so grab a different one.

[Bill McDermott]

Curtis, Yours is a candid post that resonated with me. I too, am very pleasantly impressed with the performance I get from modern, state of the art hand tools. As users, they are my preference and I go to them when I need performance. However, I also own some ancients that have been handed down through the family. Some of the woodies from the 1800's are just too difficult to trust. I rehabbed and fettled them as well as I am able. They work, but they are mostly "showpieces" that I use only for fun - especially if someone in the family is around. The vintage steel planes work well enough. Not as well as the LN and LV pieces, but they fit in nicely for me. As a general rule, I use the vintage for coarser work and keep the newer tools set for finer cuts, where they really do outperform. I also agree that a vintage chisel in good shape is perfectly useful. There are no finicky adjustments on a pointy piece of steel. Nevertheless, I differentiate there as well by keeping the vintage chisels honed very sharp and at 20 degrees - for gentle paring, etc.. My modern steel chisels get used most of the time and live happily at 30 degrees. I certainly do not offer this as any sort of new:old judgment. As you see, I use older chisels but newer planes for the finer work. This is just how I resolve the dilemna you articulated. Having old and new is a "problem" I think we can easily and happily live with. Having hand me down tools from my Great, Great Grandfather is really cool, but does not obligate me to reach for them first. Bill

[Sean Hughto]

A good tool is a joy, and age is not a factor. All tools need to be maintained - from bandsaws to chisels to planes, etc. Unless you start with a really damaged and neglected or defective tool, most fettling is nothing more than cleaning and sharpening.

[Jim Leslie]

Been down the same road and have moved away from vintage. Having spent a ton of time and $$ on a new iron & breaker for an old #4 smoother and then trying a new LN equivalent I found there was no contest. I felt the time and money would have been better spent actually woodworking with the LN. I do know someone whose interest was in the tools themselves - for their own sake and he really enjoyed that aspect of it. Like some, my initial goal was to save $$ on tools so I could afford wood, but quickly came to the conclusion both were necessary! New tools also made woodworking more enjoyable for me.

[Sean Hughto]

So I'm not surprised a $300 ductile iron plane manufacturered to rather tighter tolerances and with higher quality materials felt better to use than a $25 Stanley sweetheart 4, for example. The old Stanleys tend to have a bit of backlash in the depth adjuster and the frog seating can be less stable than a bedrock design, among other things, but they still work fine for the vast majority of tasks in my experience. So in what tasks did the Stanley fail you exactly? For example, more tear out in planing a panel of some particular wood? And why did the Stanley require a replacement blade and breaker? - just nice to have or was there a problem using the plane with its original parts?

[Kees Heiden]

Well, if you don´t like it, don´t do it! Seems like a wise descision.

Personally I love old tools, especially the history and the romance. The older the better. Restoration is usually only the techncal parts, no cosmetics. One thing I don´t really enjoy doing is flattening pitted and convex chisel and planebalde backs. So I do that in batches when the mood strikes me.

A new hobby is making tools. Metal work can be just as much fun as woodwork.

[Graham Haydon]

Curtis I see no issue with you preference for new over vintage and I can empathise. I tuned up a Record #4. Initially I enjoyed it, then I got bored and was relived to of finished it. I look at it now and feel satisfaction with what I did, saved a decent tool from the scrap pile. I should be purchasing a Clifton #4 after Christmas and it will be interesting to contrast the benefits when compared to my Record. My gut says in 99% of situations my Record with standard iron will be very similar. Part of wanting to try a nice new plane is to have a few treats in the tool chest. Having a few jewels like one Ashley Iles Mk2, joseph marples marking gauge and a clifton for fine work amoungst the humble but effective tools makes me feel good.

[Jim Leslie]

I guess I wasn't really surprised either. A flea market $5 plane, the original blade was so horribly pitted on the back from rusting there was no way it could have been properly sharpened. My only option was to replace it. Between the new blade and all the fettling, the tear out issues I had with it before were much reduced. It's still a good user for some tasks and proudly sits today with the LV/LN's. I still have most of my old tools from my collector days and will occasionally use them along with the new ones where appropriate. I won't sell off what I have, but I won't buy more vintage either. It seems conflicting, but I do have an affinity for old tools (I once made a run of picture frame moulding with my old Stanley #55 - that was a workout!). But now when I want another tool, I'll save for a new one. Growing older, I just find there are instances when nostalgia isn't what it used to be. :)

[Sean Hughto]

By all means, you should make yourself happy, Jim. I just like hearing about details when this topic comes up. My experience is that vintage work fine, and often with very little fettling effort, but brand new LNs are great to use and fun to have. No one should feel bad that they like/own vintage or new. It's all good. I use a few of both:

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3469/3354647916_7d5c6e017a_b.jpg

[Jim Leslie]

Impressive array Sean, and is about my ratio of old vs new!

I had forgot earlier to add a different aspect of this whole subject which is making your own planes. I've only made two Krenov styles; one back in the 70's and my second this year which was a coopering plane for a class at Inside Passage. Using a Hock blade and a maple body, I likely could have fettled a half dozen vintage ones in the time it took to make this plane! Initially skeptical, the rewards from this whole exercise far exceeded my expectations though. With much help from Robert, I ended up with a tool that truly worked as well as any in my collection - old or new. The sheer satisfaction of producing a coopered door using a plane you made and tuned yourself is hard to describe. This is one case where I can honestly say using either a fettled vintage or a new LV/LN would not have had the same effect.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

One thing I don´t really enjoy doing is flattening pitted and convex chisel and planebalde backs. So I do that in batches when the mood strikes me.


No kidding. I just finished working on a set of 8 plow irons, a couple rabbet plane irons, a dado plane, a paring chisel and a beading plane. It's been two days, and I still haven't honed more than a couple of them, just gotten the backs worked out and ground out the bevels to something sensible. (Someone "Sellered" most of the plow blades to almost 90 degrees, I swear, and the paring chisel was up at about 50 before I ground it back. Thank god for grinders.)

[Bradley Gray]

Sean, i love your "It's all good" comment. I was lucky enough when I was starting out to be in the right place to buy most of my hand tools at auction for next to nothing. This was in the late '70s and that time has passed. I do feel the old chisels and plane irons hold an edge better than my newer tools, especially my old planes such as Ohio Tool that have laminated blades. To me, the restoration work is not that different than the maintenance that my modern tools require. Anybody have a "modern" Stanley 45?

[Judson Green]

Mostly old tools for this guy. I enjoy the hunt, fit my budget and when tuned up right are a pleasure to use. But I can totally relate. There's been 4 Disston saws hanging the corner of my shop since September that need a good cleaning. But I've got wood that needs working.

[Max Withers]

My experience so far has been the opposite. There's something amazing to me about how well my 140 backsaw works, I can't get over it. But maybe I have been lucky. Conversely, I only have one high-end plane, and I haven't been that impressed with it, or the edge retention either for that matter. Maybe that's because it's an inherently finicky design, and I'm still getting the hang of it (it's an L-N 140), and it sure feels nice, but for the moment I will continue to put up with the little jars of vinegar and linseed oil and solvents everywhere, and even the lapping.

[Alan Wright]

Curtis, I'm going to go in a different direction here. I've been building furniture (hobby) for about 25 years. I now need to really look to find a space in my house to find a place to put something new. About 2 years ago, I bought my first hand plane (vintage) I now have about 20. The only new one is a Lie Nieson block plane, which is very nice. I spend hours "playing" with my old iron hunks. I am in the middle of a walnut blanket chest that I need to finish for Christmas and I have a lot left to do. However, I find myself standing at my bench rubbing old iron with steel wool. While it may not be wood working, I'm in my shop and am busy. I too love the satisfaction of bring an old plane, saw, chisel back from the dead. Sometimes I just open my plane storage case and just looooook....To each his own.

As a hobbyist, I've gotten past judging the success of my woodworking time by what comes out of my shop. I focus more on getting enjoyment out of the time I spend in my shop. Do what makes you happy.

[Jim Koepke]

I spend hours "playing" with my old iron hunks. I am in the middle of a walnut blanket chest that I need to finish for Christmas and I have a lot left to do. However, I find myself standing at my bench rubbing old iron with steel wool.

And I know one of these days a genie will pop out...

Hi,

My name is Jim and I'm a rustoholic...

Yep, Alan I know exactly of what you speak.

jtk

[maximillian arango]

First post here I am very new to woodworking and just bought my first plane this week its a stanley number 5 type 11, which I picked up for 20 bucks. It needs help to make working but that is why I bought it, I would like to learn how to use it but first I have to know how to maintain it might as well learn everything necessary to bring it back to life. This is part of the steps that I am taking to reach my goal of making my own planes. Step one buy plane now I am just picking which way is the best route to restore it. I don't think this will press me because I love doing things with my hands and if I bring a tool back to life then I wont take pride in what I made but what I use to make it.Now if only I could afford to buy a sharpening stone... reading on buying used stones now(shameless plug)Hope to be here for the long haul. ~Max

[Steve Rozmiarek]

Max, welcome! Rather than buying stones, you could save some bucks and go with the scary sharp technique. Sandpaper is cheap, and you probably have something flat enough to use as the backer, like a thick piece of glass.

[Anthony Moumar]

Never posted here but been lurking around for a while but I'll add my 2 cents. I prefer to buy new tools as I don't really enjoy restoring old tools. Nice vintage tools aren't that cheap around here as well. I have some vintage tools and restoring them wasn't bad but I just prefer to get a new tool and be able to start working with it when I get it. The main reason I'll buy vintage over new is that there just isn't any quality modern versions for that tool or the good modern ones are too expensive for me. Major tools in that category are braces and saws. I have a couple of vintage stanleys and woodies that were given to me and they work fine but I don't really use them because I prefer my Veritas and LN planes over them. I also like supporting premium tool manufactures that work hard to ensure the tools are made to outstanding quality with great customer support.

I also think that a lot of woodworkers like to collect tools where as I really only want one of each tool and only really buy tools if I really need them. For most of us this is a hobby and should be fun and enjoyable. There's really no wrong way to do it just as long as that way makes you happy. I also like to think that in 100 years after I'm dead and new LN planes aren't as good they use to make them (hopefully this isn't the case) someone will find mine and enjoy them.

[steven c newman]

Was restoring almost three planes a month. Finally got the ones I like, and can use all the time. The ones that didn't? Sold them.

Used to be, there was nothing like waiting on the mailperson to drop off a package. Then the rush to get the item all done up like it was new in the box. Just about done with all of that. Still looking around at some items, just not being too crazy about it. Waiting on springtime, when the Rust Hunting Season starts up again.

[Brian Holcombe]

I buy new, it's quick and easy. As much as I love tools and like the workshop to have character, my main purpose is still building furniture.

[Jack Curtis]

I buy a mix. For chisels, I almost always buy on ebay because that's the only way I can afford most of those great Japanese chisels. I'd have to make do with a lot fewer types if I were to buy new ones only; although this was done before Stu started providing the Koyamachi that are close enough to ebay better ones in price that it makes more sense to buy them now, which I'll do just as soon as I can tame this ebay addiction.

For planes, I gave up on most metal ones 15 years ago, for many reasons, mostly that the old ones I bought were junk; so I now use western planes for some specialty tasks, like the Record 43/44 for plowing. Many of the new metal specialty planes I've got I've found unuseful and I need to sell them. Often I've found specialty Japanese planes on ebay (say for rebating) shortly after buying a metal one after looking forever (an unused LN 10-1/4 rebate), only to have the Japanese version show up on ebay the next week. I really need to gather these still unused metal planes and sell them. I still really like the LN LA Jack, LN shoulders (small and large), and the LN 140. And then there are the LV miniatures in metal that I just bought for amusement, and they've provided it; but I suspect that they'll work great for some smaller projects I have in mind.

So in summary, I agree with you Curtis.

[Jim Koepke]

First post here I am very new to woodworking and just bought my first plane this week its a stanley number 5 type 11, which I picked up for 20 bucks. It needs help to make working but that is why I bought it, I would like to learn how to use it but first I have to know how to maintain it might as well learn everything necessary to bring it back to life.

Maxmillian,

Welcome to the Creek.

At the top of the Neanderthal Haven is a listing "Sub-Forums" for Neanderthal Haven Announcements. Inside there is the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?103805-Neanderthal-wisdom-FAQs

There are a few threads on rehabilitating planes in there.


Never posted here but been lurking around for a while but I'll add my 2 cents. I prefer to buy new tools as I don't really enjoy restoring old tools. Nice vintage tools aren't that cheap around here as well.

Anthony,

Welcome to the Creek. Where is the "around here" where nice vintage tools aren't that cheap?

I kind of feel like all the good stuff is back east, but there seems to be stuff popping up all the time to get some money out of my wallet.

jtk

[Anthony Moumar]

Melbourne, Australia. I have found a few good deals but most of the time the prices are so high I just feel that it's easier to buy new rather than spending hours searching eBay for a bargain.

[Jim Koepke]

Melbourne, Australia. I have found a few good deals but most of the time the prices are so high I just feel that it's easier to buy new rather than spending hours searching eBay for a bargain.

It is kind of like mining for gold or precious gems just about anywhere you are. You have to go through tons of muck and slag to find that one hunk of gold or sparkling gem in the rough.

There is one big rule to rust hunting, you aren't going to find if you don't keep hunting.

jtk