Please don't hate me: Waterstones.

[Adam Petersen]

Hi,

I know.....a lot of threads on this site. I have looked through many of them and googled a lot too. I currently use Norton water stones. I have the 220/1000 and 4000/8000 combo's. I flatten with a dmt diasharp that is x-coarse. I finish with green compound on a leather strop I made from an old tool belt.

I don't feel like I'm getting the best edge. I hate the 220 for rough work. It doesn't feel like it's doing anything. Luckily I don't use it much. The 1000 gives me nice feed back, as does the 4000. I like those two. The 8000 is ok, but just. It get's sticky easy.

My tools range from 01, a lot of A2, Narex chrome magwhateveria chisels, and one lone PMV-11 blade.

I was looking through the lists of stones, checked out Stu's stuff, etc. I have about $120 to spend on a stone (or stones). Is there one missing from my mix you'd recommend? I see the Naniwa Super's are on sale at TFWW. I was thinking about getting a 5000 and 12000 to supplement. I've heard mixed reviews but nothing to sway me one way or the other. Is there something else I should be looking at to add to my group?

One last bit of info, I'm a hobbyist, I am in SD where is gets very cold but I heat the shop when I'm in it and bring my stones inside when done. I mostly work in hardwoods like red and white oak, ash, hard maple, so I sharpen fairly often.

I know these topics are ad nauseum but if you have any advise I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

Adam

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Hello Adam,
I started with the same set you have, including the flattening stone you have. I also had the feeling that the 220 wasn't doing much. Thanks for verifying my suspicions. I lucked up on eBay and got a whole set of diamond stones for cheap. I use a diamond stone for when I need to set a bevel, fix chips, or other rough work. I take it to the fine grit and then go to the water stones.

I graduated to a Shapton Glass 16000 and loved it so much that I went ahead and got the Shapton Glass 1k, 4k, and 8k. The Nortons will be used for dressing plane soles, sharpening my machete, and other work where I just need it "good enough" and the Shaptons are for fine honing.

[David Weaver]

Naniwa supers are no improvement over nortons for woodworking. You have what you need in stones, but the norton 220 is junk - as you can tell. If you want a stone for heavy bevel work, find a wide/long norton crystolon stone - *NEW* because the older stones that have gotten harder are not any good. A new crystolon is as good as any coarse stone you can find. Choose by the grit size whether you think you need medium or coarse (medium crystolon seems like all I need personally).

If you're not getting a keen edge but it is fully polished and the very edge looks like nothing (i.e., nothing is glinting back at you) your problem is more in the geometry arena than it is in fineness.

If you don't like the stiction of the norton 8k - pretty much all fine stones will have stiction unless they are shedding grit (that includes all of the premium stones - chosera, sp 13k, shapton cream 15k, superstones, ...). You can remedy your issue just by keeping a slurry on the surface and/or shortening the length of your strokes on the stone, both of which will prevent loading, stiction and glazing.

Since you're following the coarse stones with waterstones, you can use a norton crystolon with soap and water or and/or glycerin and you won't have oil contamination. The longer you sharpen, the less important what the stone is. Don't bother flattening coarse stones (when you do that with diamonds, you often end up just grading the surface of a coarse stone into a finer one), just don't use them on the backs of tools. Work the surface of the whole stone and perfect flatness won't be that vital on the bevel side of the stone.

[phil harold]

Adam I am 20 mile southwest of ya and my water stones freeze all the time
one of my fine king stones did not survive but its replacement with a norton has.

I use a mix of stones diamond, Arkansas,
I agree the 220 is a waste I have better luck with sandpaper on granite

[bridger berdel]

not so neander, but I tend to revert to tailed devices for rough shaping.

[Adam Cruea]

I got a Sigma Select II 240 to replace my Norton 220 and it seems to work better. The only issue is that it will start to dish like crazy if you have some serious metal to take off. Otherwise, it's not an issue, really.

[Jim Koepke]

For coarse work my preference is sandpaper on granite. My coarse water stones sit unused.

My 4000/8000 Norton combo doesn't seem as nice as having separate stones. My 8000 stone feels "sticky" after flattening. A few rubs with a 4000 to make a slurry helps a bit. In your case, you might try the 1000 stone to raise a slurry if you don't have a nagura stone.

With 80 - 320 grit sandpaper on a flat surface for the rough work the 1000, 4000 & 8000 stones seem to do all I need. Someday I may spring for a finer stone, but right now my edges seem to get as sharp as is needed to work wood.

jtk

[Archie England]

another 2 cents!

First, those Norton 4000 and 8000 stones are good ones, but they are really closer to 2500 and 5000 than the rating indicated (IMO). Buy Stu's Cerax 320 and the Sigma power ceramic 1200. If you later want something more than paste on substrate (leather, mdf, etc.), then get a quality 10k or 13k stone! Even the Naniwa Snow White 8000 is a great stone. However, I like sharpening steps from 1k to 13k, whereas David, Chris, and others typically prefer 1k/8k without steps (or something along that line). I've seen what Chris G. can do with his sharpening and it's quality work. So, there's a number of viable options to get you to your destination. And, stones other than Sigma work well, too (Chosera, Bestor, Shapton Pros, Gesshin); but the bang for the buck here is best served by the Sigma powers (not select IIs). Just ask Stu. He's great with customer service. But then, we are fortunate to have a number of retailers here that provide extremely helpful insights--whether sales are involved or not--and that's why I love this forum!

[Stuart Tierney]

Adam,

Keep using the Nortons for now, save up a few extra $$$ and that'll give you some more options so you won't have to make any compromises when the time comes that you really do need to replace your stones.

I know what the Nortons are like (except the #220, I can't bring myself to import a stone that just can't write a good review for itself) and they work, they're effective and that's enough. I'd suggest changing how much water you're using, pressure and generally 'playing around' and you may find a better way of making them work. Razor sharpeners can coax a good shaving edge from the Norton 8K, and while it's too much phaffing about to get there, it can be done. All you'll be doing with a better stone is taking away the need to play games with the stone to get a similar (and likely better) edge.

I'd have reservations about the Superstones though. They're not bad, but you'll likely find that you'll need to take an edge all through the Nortons before you go anywhere near the Superstones. I wrote long ago that they "grind slowly, but exceedingly fine" and that's about the nicest, and most honest assessment I can give of them. They work, they do a good job, just so long as you're in no hurry. Some folks swear that they're wonderful and fantastic, almost all of those folks sing a very different tune when they try something else.

Stu.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

I have the Superstones. I don't use 'em much now I'm starting to pick up other things. If you've nothing else, they're decent for the price, but having use others, I don't think I'd go that route again.

The two big issues I have with them is the 1000 grit stone wasn't bonded well to the base, so there was flex in there, particularly as it absorbed water. So keeping flat was tough if not impossible. The other issue was the 8000 grit I used as a final stone - I got a great finish, but it was really less than aggressive - You had to be really keen on coming off the 5000 without any wire edge, because the 8000 couldn't remove it at all. Sometimes it could make a wire edge that it couldn't remove. I just found that unless you were careful with the prep, you could end up spending a lot more time on the 8,000 than you wanted to.

[Winton Applegate]

Norton 220
Yah wrap it up and give it as a Christmas gift to some one you REALY don't like. Coal in the stock as it were (only the 220 is less useful than a lump of coal).


8000 sticky

MORE WATER, More Water, more . . .
water
more often.
Even though I went to Shapton I found the Norton 8000 to be a great stone. Works fine with some experimentation and
MORE WATER !

Loose the tool belt strop.
If you have to strop
and for some reason some of us like a good stropping from time to time

then get one of the real strops that David recommends ( I have no experience there but he has convinced me ).
or
a hard, flat, wood block strop ; maple or some such (which I have used and that works also).
The tool belt is too soft, probably has grit in it from working and is just rounding your edges and half wearing the flat facets into wear bevels before you ever cut wood (I know . . . the edges are REALLY sharp and cut hair but . . . nah dude, nah. Not for plane blades . . . soft strops are OK for carving chisels).

What stone(s) to get ?
Since I don't grind much though I have like five bench grinders, belt sanders etc including a tooooo slow Delta wet , white wheel grinder just for blades etc.
I would recommend getting a Shapton 120
http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/Q!0P0000.htm
I am very impressed with how fast that stone cuts and it stays flat well considering it is a coarse stone.
NICE STONE Shapton ! Way to go !
I have 80 grit stones that don't cut really hard blades nearly as well.

I don't think you NEED a 12,000 stone (get that when you run out of tools to buy as I have )
When I had a similar set up as you , though I recommend working toward separate stones rather than the combination stones, I filled in this group with my first Shapton which is a 2000 (between your 1000 and your 4000) see the green stone in the fore ground in this photo.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/Dazzling_zpsf0fdbd9a.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/Dazzling_zpsf0fdbd9a.jpg.html)


and here
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/roc%20cuts%20wood/TheOldTeam_zpsc3a9e6e3.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/roc%20cuts%20wood/TheOldTeam_zpsc3a9e6e3.jpg.html)

Alternatively you could get your self an oil stone for your O1 blades but I recommend a LARGE (ish) Arkansas so save up a bit more for that one
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/roc%20cuts%20wood/IMG_1464_zpsa9227749.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/roc%20cuts%20wood/IMG_1464_zpsa9227749.jpg.html)


I know these topics are ad nauseum but if you have any advise I'd appreciate it.

No keep asking !
I never get tired of banging the table about sharpening.

But remember . . . sharp tools are just a crutch.
ha, ha, snicker
When you get "really good" you can make stuff with dull tools. Only I ain't that good yet.
And when you get "really, really, really, good" all you need is a rock. Only I aint that good yet.

PS: the light brown stone in the water next to the 1200 red King stone is a 700 so I used to go from the diamond stone like you have to the 700, the 1200, the 2000, the 4000 then the 8000 then

cut wood like a Big Ol' DOG

[Adam Petersen]

Thanks to everyone for chiming in. I'm glad my suspicions of the Norton 220 were confirmed. I'm going to follow the advise here and keep working with my Nortons and save up for a step up when these wear down. I will also lose the tool leather strop. I wondered if I was dubbing my edges a bit on it. I'll try some mdf and see if I can improve my edge with the green stuff. I do like stropping at my bench after a bit to just renew my edges. Results are sometimes good and sometimes not. I will probably pick up a nagura stone too. I have noticed that they do work better when I leave more slurry on top from the diamond stone. I'll try wetting them more too.

Again, I appreciate everyone's input.

Adam

[Rick Fisher]

I have the Norton 4000/8000 and find it a really muddy stone.. My favorite stones are the Sigma. The 1000 in blue is by far the nicest stone I own. I say that because when I use it, I can feel it cutting..

I also have the Sigma 240 and 400 .. Green and Rust color.. They are "okay" .. Not as engaged as the 1000.

I use the Sigma 13000 for the final hone and its a real nice stone.