C & C please - my first Finial Vase that worked as planned

[Brian Kent]

This time I drew it out with intentional proportions and it ended up as intended.

Therefore, I would appreciate your C & C, especially on form and proportions.

The wood choices were according to what I had on hand to practice on and fail and start over, so that is somewhat accidental. An avocado branch for the end-grain vase, and a piece of sycamore for the finial. Quick finish with shellac and wax.

Thanks all.

Brian Kent

[Harry Robinette]

Love the shape could be a little smaller on the bottom. The finial is a little heavy but you've definitely got the basics down pretty good.
Just my thoughts.

[Brian Kent]

Thank you Harry. I just realized I set the bottom as 1/3 of the widest point, but did not re-measure when I turned some of the widest part off.

[Dale Miner]

Brian,

First impression from the thumbnail; finial is to bulky in the center section.

After opening the photo the flow of the form from shoulder to finial base is very nice, as is the transition from the vessel to finial. As the eye moves downward, it appears as though the curve straightens out or perhaps has a slight reverse to it near the bottom. To my way of thinking, no part of a form should be devoid of curvature unless the form is entirely devoid of curvature (always exceptions though). The use of a reverse in the curve on a form is a matter of personal preference and sometimes works better than others. In this case, I think the form would have been more pleasing to the eye if the curve continued from shoulder to foot and left a bit of fullness in the lower section.

Using an end grain blank with the pith slightly off center can really show off the grain and add interest. Your piece has that quality, well done.

[Scott Hackler]

Brian, as a "finial fella" I will comment on your first finial. You see and executed the primary elements of a traditional finial using height, a feature bulb and a narrowed section supporting the feature bulb.

Finial creation is all about including those elements or a variation of them and most importantly remembering that finial is not a "knob" or a "handle" but instead a decoration that adds to the form it adorns. Yours is very heavy for the form it sits on. This finial on a round/fat form would look better.

Practice and practice some more. It always helped me to save pictures of turnings that included finials of folks I admire. Robin Costelle, Keith Burns, Cindy Drozda, Jim Syvertsen and Ken Wraight to name a few of the ones I admire.

As a general rule of thumb, I generally make my finials about as high at the form is wide. The thicker the finial, the shorter is should be for a better visual appeal.

Congrats on getting #1 out of your system. Save it and compare a year from now.

[Brian Kent]

May I ask what kind of wood you use for finials if I don't happen to have any ebony? I blew several of them trying to get them thinner. Especially the top, I wanted to be more like a line than a cone.

Dale, I see what you mean with that curve turning inward. That was not intentional so I'll watch for that. As for the center section do you mean the wide part of the finial or the concave area below that?

[Scott Hackler]

Brian, I use African blackwood pretty exclusively but I tend to go pretty thin (1/16"). You can turn thin finials out of other species that are tight grained. Holly, Ebony, Rosewood, Cocobollo, African Blackwood, Osage Orange, Black Locust....... A lot of it has to do with technique and experience. Personally I have turned walnut to 1/16" but it was difficult and not very stable afterwards. Not very enjoyable for me, so I moved to the super hard stuff.

Work on the tip first and work your way back. This will leave the finial supported as you go.

[Scott Hackler]

275982This one was my first attempt at what is now my "signature" finial style. This was several years ago (2009 or 2010). Too tall, too fat and distracting from the black palm HF it sits on.

275981This one was turned around July this year and is one of my latest pieces. More refined, lighter and a decoration to the HF instead of a distraction.


So 3 years or so of practice and failures to get to this point and I am still not 100% satisfied. Enjoy the journey and don't get too frustrated. It's worth the practice.

[Brian Kent]

I made this little hollow form avocado vase a few days ago. I tried to work in a couple of your recommendations using Padauk on the finial.

[Brian Kent]

275982This one was my first attempt at what is now my "signature" finial style. This was several years ago (2009 or 2010). Too tall, too fat and distracting from the black palm HF it sits on.

275981This one was turned around July this year and is one of my latest pieces. More refined, lighter and a decoration to the HF instead of a distraction.


So 3 years or so of practice and failures to get to this point and I am still not 100% satisfied. Enjoy the journey and don't get too frustrated. It's worth the practice.

Both are just awesome. Now that I have 2 that did not fly apart on me, I look forward to inspecting a lot of other turners' finials and trying things out. :)

[Mel Fulks]

Brian,you take criticism gratiously , so you have earned more. I think I agree most with Scott,to me it is all good ,except the spire part . Just that part I would make smaller ,especially at the juncture with the urn. If you agree ,I would just whittle it. After photographing it as is ,for comparison . This is the kind of subtlety that reminds me of human faces . The features can all be good ,but just not go together. There is an actress (nameless here for evermore) who has pretty eyes,a pretty nose, pretty skin,cheeks and mouth,neck ,and ears. But she ...is not pretty ,and I don't know why. And I could be wrong about this.

[Brian Kent]

Brian,you take criticism gratiously , so you have earned more.

Great line, Mel.

[John Keeton]

Brian, you don't give dimensions of your vases, and that would be helpful to those offering comment. The second form is considerably better. It has a much more consistent curve, as Dale suggested, and the shoulder of the form is more appropriately positioned. The roll of the shoulder into the opening is much more pleasing, as well.

This finial is better - both in flow and proportion. Both of the finials transition off the form very well, but the second has a more pleasing transition. Though Scott's style of finial is an elegant exception, IMO the finial on a vase form generally works if it is half the height of the vase.

In most situations, the bulb should not be larger than 5/8", perhaps 3/4" on a larger form. Most of mine are around 1/2". The curvature of the cove in your finial base is pleasing, as the waist falls at about 2/3 the height of the base. It might help the flow if the waist of the spire did the same. It appears you have the narrowest diameter at the half way point.

Your cuts look clean, but strive for a bit of an undercut with the indents - it will add shadow lines that give the finial a crisp appearance.

Like Scott, I find using harder woods much easier - Blackwood turns better than ebony IMO, and holly is excellent. I have had good luck with other rosewoods, such as cocobolo, but the color rarely works with the woods I use. Generally, a black finial adds contrast and appears smaller and more delicate than a light colored finial.

The waist of my finials are around .05-.06", and I will sometimes support the shaft of the finial with my left index finger on the backside as I turn. It sounds precarious, but it works and I have yet to experience injury. Turning finials at relatively high speed permits one to achieve a smoother cut. Extremely sharp tools are essential, and if you do not have a 1/4" detail gouge and a vortex tool, you might consider adding those to the stable. Finish cut and sand as you go, completing only 3/4" or so of finial at a time. One can rarely revisit the tip of the finial without disaster.

As Scott stated, it takes practice and self critique to improve. You have done very well for your first attempts!

[Jessica Gothie]

I agree with what's been said... in the first form, the finial is too heavy, too thick for me. I like the flow of the shoulder on the form and was pretty happy with it until I scrolled down to your second effort, which is much better. I'm trying to figure out why I like it so much better, and I think that the "round" top part is bigger and rounder in proportion to the foot than your first effort. Your curve is smooth on both forms (I'm jealous -- that's something I struggle with) but the second works better for me. The second finial is more spikey and decorative-looking (I am a fan of the spikey) so that was an improvement as well, though it's still wider at its widest than I would go for. (Again, I like spikey.) I'm looking forward to what else you come up with.

[Dale Miner]

May I ask what kind of wood you use for finials if I don't happen to have any ebony?

Dale, I see what you mean with that curve turning inward. That was not intentional so I'll watch for that. As for the center section do you mean the wide part of the finial or the concave area below that?

Brian,

The part that caught my eye was the center section, but the waist would need to be thinner also as the bulb becomes smaller. John and Scott both have given good advice and are masters at finials.

As to wood, black cherry and hard maple are low cost woods that will take fairly good detail and are good for practice. Cherry takes dye well. Turning of finials involves sharp tools and a light touch with virtually all cuts made with bevel contact. Scraping cuts are almost sure to have unwanted results. Detail gouge and skew are my weapons of choice for finial and other fine spindle work.

[Brian Kent]

Dimensions:
1st vase is 6" high, 3-3/4" wide. Finial is 4" high, and 1-1/4" wide at the bulb. For my own reference I made the finial 2/3 of the height of the vase, and the bulb 1/3 the width of the vase.

2nd vase is 4" high by 3-1/4" wide. Finial is 3-3/4" high (I had intended it to be the same as the width, but lost track of where I was going to cut it off) and the bulb is 1", os a little less than 1/3 the width of the vase. The main spire is 3/16" thick at the narrowest.

The Padauk on the second was much easier to control thickness than the sycamore finial on the first.

[Brian Kent]

Really great information all the way around. A fascinating part of woodworking, and probably any art, is trying it in order to be able to see what people are talking about. When I knew I was visiting the Maloof Studio about 5 years ago I made a small table with his joinery just so I could see what I was seeing. The next one was totally different.

The actual dimensions and proportions others use are very helpful to know what I am shooting for. I am low on the woods recommended so I may try mesquite and dry eucalyptus to see how they are at turning narrower dimensions. A 75 mile trip to my favorite lumber store is coming up in a couple of weeks.

I watched a couple of the Cindy Drozda videos to find out what a Vortex tool is. I see that Thompson Tools has a 1/4" detail gouge so those look like future purchases. Meanwhile I will tune up the spindle gouge to have a bit smaller tip.

I appreciate all of this teaching. Thank you very much.

[Curt Fuller]

Brian, I like both forms. The second is an improvement just because it has a smaller base. Scott mentioned that he uses African Blackwood almost exclusively on his finials. It is a sweet wood to work with on delicate spindles. But it's pricey to learn on. There is a second reason for using it though and that's the natural contrast the black wood provides to almost any wood you use for the vessel. Black just seems to provide a great compliment to most woods where other mixes of woods don't always match so well. An alternative is to use any good dense, straight grained wood you have available and when you get it to the point you're happy with it, just put a little ebony stain on a paper towel and 'ebonize' it.

[Thom Sturgill]

Lots of good comments, Brian. Finials are a somewhat difficult subject as many start out modeling theirs after Cindy Drozda and fail to create their own design. I think Scott has the right idea in creating a 'signature' finial. One tip to prevent the reverse curve on the first form. Use a straight edge and roll it from base to opening. If the curve is continuous the ruler will rock smoothly and never find a 'stable' position where it touches on two or more points.

[Brian Kent]

I was just looking for some mesquite to see if it would hold the shape. When I cut into it I found out it was desert ironwood. No wonder it was so heavy. I cut it into 2.25" blanks to fit in a chuck (plus leftovers). It is very hard, but I'll see if it will hold together as a finial.

This is some of the wood that Jerry brought from Tucson.

[John Keeton]

Brian, while Cindy developed her concept of finials - one that is widely replicated - she is not the originator of the finial concept. She publicized an article in the American Woodturner in 2006 (http://www.cindydrozda.com/handouts_Pdfs/handouts/FinialArticle.pdf) - linked below. Over the years, she has evolved in her designs.

Along with Cindy, the work of Keith Tompkins has influenced many. Keith was posting about finials in 2005 and has taught and presented many times on the subject. Because of her DVDs, Cindy does enjoy a lot of recognition, and without taking anything away from her, finials were being designed and used by many woodturners over the years - some more recognized than others.

As you know, the application of finials dates back centuries and the design elements and proportions were developed using long accepted "rules." Those rules can assist one in producing a pleasing and proportionate finial. All one need do is look at classic examples of fine furniture - highboys, clocks, etc. Thom is right - many folks copy Cindy's finials and go no further. But, most will eventually develop a style that is somewhat their own. And, some will drift off into using other materials, but the accepted rules of design remain the same.

[Brian Kent]

I found out that desert ironwood can hold up under fine turning. Quite a bit like cocobolo.

This vase is 4-1/2" high x 3-3/4" wide. Finial is 2-3/4". Feature width 1/2". Thinnest section is 3/32", at which point my courage gave out. :rolleyes: Opening 1.4". I start with a 1-1/4" forstner and then clean up the edge I chewed it up in process. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

John, I made the thinnest part 2/3 up on the spire.
I responded to the comment about a preference for high shoulders, but that takes away the classic proportions. Do you prefer the wide point where it is or 2/3 of the way from the bottom?

Thanks all.

Brian

PS. Desert Ironwood, sanded to 600, burnished with cotton, with paste wax added = almost black.

[John Keeton]

Brian, I like the form as is - very nice, and the widest portion of the form appears to be at the 2/3 point. The first form you did appeared to have a much lower girth and the shoulder had to much elongation for my tastes, though some like that look.

On the finial - definite improvement! When there is a lower embellished area, such as you have, I prefer an upper embellishment, as well. It seems to balance out the finial IMO. You did this on the previous finial and the proportions within the finial were fairly good. This finial is much closer to being proportionate to the form, though your form is smaller than I expected, and you might benefit from a little smaller bead, and just a bit shorter finial to suit my tastes. However, much of this is personal preference, so develop a style that works for you.

I think the "indents" on either side of the bulb/ball/bead should be smaller than the bead - perhaps 1/2 the diameter, and they will appear more crisp if your indent is a slightly acute angle - shy of 90*. If you are cutting the indents with a parting tool, then that may be difficult. This is where a 1/4" detail gouge comes in handy, and Doug's is perfect for this work. I actually have two of them - one with a more rounded nose for delicate shaping and one a bit sharper for detailing.

On the cove base of the finial, the curvature you achieved on the previous finial was a bit more pleasing to me. This one seems a little "pointy". You should have a sweeping curve the entire distance beginning at the shoulder/collar area and ending at the outer edge of the lower indent. If that curve mimics the Golden spiral, it will generally produce a nice result with the waist properly positioned at the 2/3 mark - actually at approx. 62% per Fibonacci.;) This is also a good rule of proportions for the outside curvature of the form, though there are many others that work, too - the catenary (my favorite), parabola, etc.

276028

Regardless of the wood used, one can always dye it black. Fiebing's leather dye works well, but I don't think it is available to be shipped to CA. I even dye African Blackwood in order to achieve a nice, consistent black. Holly dyes very well, too, and one can also use Behlen's black lacquer on any wood. It is available in gloss, satin and flat here (http://www.shellac.net/BehlenAerosols.html).

I think you are well on your way!!!

[Richard Coers]

Ipe is a fantastic wood to use for finials. Check with a lumber yard for 2x2 railing materials. It can be pretty dark and works down to very fine detail. Even makes nice fine crochet hooks!

[Jamie Donaldson]

Brian, you have received much good info so far, but let me affirm that practice is the best teacher, and lots of it! Get some hard wood like maple and make many, experimenting with design, and don't even sand or finish unless you want that practice as well. Pen blanks are about the right size when making a vessel top is not a goal, and you can make larger finial/top/bases and join them when needed. A 1/2" spindle gouge is a good versatile tool for this work, after grinding away most of the heel, leaving a bevel about 1/8" in width for support. I always support the back side of thin areas with a finger when cutting, but I wear a thin leather golf glove most all the time I'm turning.

[Brian Kent]

Beautiful finials. I love getting enough info to know where I am trying to head and then just doing it over and over again.

[Scott Hackler]

I think it's funny to see a picture like the one Jamie just posted, because I have had a "finial forest" sitting on the counter as I turn finial after finial while practicing on cheap pen blanks!

[Dale Miner]

Iff'n a Guy or gal was to have practiced making Xmas ornaments and had a bunch of globes laying about, those practice finials make good icicles, and to make proportions come close it forces one to turn thin and delicate (and develop the technique for doing so).