Wegner's The Chair - A Question of Ethics

[Derek Cohen]

I plan to start work on Wegner's The Chair in earnest after Christmas, when I am on leave from my practice. The day time job is too consuming at present, and with social arrangements there is just not enough time on weekends.


I shall be writing up the build on my website and blogging it on the forums. The idea of sharing dimensions taken from an original chair here has given me several headaches - keeping in mind that this is a chair in production (I am not sure if it is still under copyrite).


I do not see a problem making a copy for oneself. I assume that someone who wishes to sell the chairs commercially will require CNC machines (There are several replicas in the market place, and these are "photocopies" - similar in looks but missing relevant details). My dimensions will not help this group. And anyone who wants to go commercially by hand from the plans, well all I can say is good luck! Consequently, I will assume that the only ones interested in the dimensions (not published plans, per se), will only be building a chair for their own use (in a similar manner to the replica Maloof chair plans that are available).


Let me know your thoughts on this please.


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Jamie Buxton]

If you're concerned about the ethics of revealing dimensions in your blog, surely you can write the blog without mentioning the dimensions.

[jason thigpen]

I see no problem with building it to the exact dimensions. You are building it for personal use and not to sell. And you are posting the build online as an educational resource on hand tool work. All sounds legit to me.

[Lee Reep]

That's a tough call to make. I think I would err on the side of caution. The fact that you might include dimensions of components on your website and blog could be considered "publishing" to me, but I'm no legal expert. It seems like maybe just documenting your build and techniques would be the safest bet. If your dimensions were only overall dimensions, such as "I chose to make the seat height of my build "X" inches/mm." then you are only providing guidelines to the design, and not enabling or promoting duplication of a design that is possibly copyrighted.

Maybe some woodworking lawyer can chime in. :)

[Mel Fulks]

I truly appreciate ethics but I vaguely remember a couple of unsuccessful attempts by designers to legally prohibit others from using "their" designs. The word " replica" was specifically coined to mean a copy made by the ORIGINAL artist. So the word itself is being "copied" without authorization . A chair might be considered comfortable or not just by being a bit too large or too small, so I don't think holding back dimensions is anything more than a slight obstacle .

[Mike Henderson]

The chair is out there, available to almost anyone who wants to measure it. Publishing your measurements is not a copyright infringement.

Mike

[Andrew Bell]

If its an ethics v law question then it gets confusing,

In Australia at least, legally recipes don't have copyright in the ingredients or quantities ~ however the instructions in the method of putting them together does does. If you use someone else's ingredients and come up with your own method then you are free to use the rest. Given that your woodworking method is likely to be your own then the copyright question is most likely going to be moot from a legal perspective.

From a practical standpoint, even if you did not provide dimensions and assuming that noone else has access to one of these chairs, if you have anything in your photos with a known size, this can be used to reference the rest of the dimensions in that photo, which can then in tern be used to derive and probably then derive more measurements to pull from the other photos; so withholding is probably only going to slow someone down if they were determined enough.

From an ethical point of view, I don't feel that I should impose my morals on anyone else, so its up to you....

However after after hitting post, you would want to be sure that there was no trademark or patent over the design however this is going to kick you if it exists regardless if you publish the dimensions or not

[John Coloccia]

I see no problem with describing the chair to whatever level of detail you wish.

[Jim Belair]

The chair is out there, available to almost anyone who wants to measure it. Publishing your measurements is not a copyright infringement.

Mike

I agree with this.

Neither is making a copy for yourself. Going into commercial production or even making a single unit for sale would be another matter.

[Prashun Patel]

I wouldn't publish the dimensions on the blog. Honestly, it'll be TMI for most readers. If they really want them, they'd write you personally. If the question crosses your mind, then I'd err on the side of the conservative.

I'd only publish specific dimensions if there's something special about it that you wish to point out and make people think about, like an abnormally high armrest.

[Paul Saffold]

It seems to me the simpilest solution is to contact the manufacturer to find out their policy, then go from there.

Caleb James has a blog I follow. In it he discusses making multiple copies of Wegner chairs and detailed weaving instructions.

http://kapeldesigns.blogspot.com/2013/02/wegner-walnut-and-paper-cord.html

[Jim Matthews]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Those that want an original are paying for the expertise and logo.
Those that want a great chair are paying homage to a maker's genius.

It's the buying and selling of copies that's a fraught enterprise, worthy of scorn.

[george wilson]

This is WAY too complicated!!!! Just build the chair. It isn't a secret aircraft or something like that.

[Rob Lee]

Hi Derek -

I would boil it down to this...

If your article slant is "Here's what I did....", then i believe you're OK.

If your article slant is "Here's how you can do it....and avoid buying one", then you have crossed a line (incitement to infringe)...

Cheers -

Rob

[Mel Fulks]

The designer pieces made by their own employees for the purpose of selling as many as possible are by necessity pretty doable by anyone who wants to make one. I don't see any way around that. And some subtleties to some things can only be seen by an expert .For instance, to most of us one violin looks another , but an expert can tell an Amati shape from a Strad shape from across the room. But both instruments might be fakes. Somehow Samuel Mc Intire was able to carve so well that his stuff is never mass produced and the best work of his rivals has often been attributed ...to McIntire . And to take that another step ,a lot of his work was on furniture made by someone else. Why is he hogging the credit ?

[Tony Shea]

I truly think this is a non issue what so ever. As has been stated, the chairs exist all over the place to pull dimensions off of. That is how you were able to get the dimensions to build this chair thanks to some help from people with access to the chair. I see no issue at all for you to blog about a one off replica of this chair and post your work along the way even with listed dimensions.

[Brian Holcombe]

The designer pieces made by their own employees for the purpose of selling as many as possible are by necessity pretty doable by anyone who wants to make one. I don't see any way around that. And some subtleties to some things can only be seen by an expert .For instance, to most of us one violin looks another , but an expert can tell an Amati shape from a Strad shape from across the room. But both instruments might be fakes. Somehow Samuel Mc Intire was able to carve so well that his stuff is never mass produced and the best work of his rivals has often been attributed ...to McIntire . And to take that another step ,a lot of his work was on furniture made by someone else. Why is he hogging the credit ?

Mel, the cabinet shops that produce Hans Wegners designs are always credited. They might be mass produced (by small cabinet shops btw...) but they are certainly not producing as many as possible, they respect Wegners original goal of producing very high quality furniture.

I've always been taken with his designs, they are very well thought out and well crafted.

[Mel Fulks]

Brian,thanks you make a valid point on crediting the shops. I'm not against the modern designer-brand concept,I just don't think there is any realistic expectation of of controlling imitation. And really the concept isn't even new , 18th century goods were often outsourced and labeled by retailers.

[bridger berdel]

i believe copyright applies in this case to the original plans. the product of those plans might be covered by a patent- but the bar is much higher for granting a patent. if you got your hands on a copy of the original plans ( that held a valid copyright) and put those on your blog, that would be copyright infringement. look the chair over carefully. if it has a patent number on it, look that up to see what it covers. otherwise, what you write about that chair ( including measurements you make) belong to you, to be covered by your own copyright if you so desire.

[Graham Haydon]

A hard one to negotiate and it depends which way you look at it, I can understand your torment. On one hand it's a design that's been around for a while and not under patent or copyright I assume? If so legally no problem. On the other hand an individual designed an original item and is it fair to do a 'how to' open to all with out consulting? Like another poster mentioned if you feel in any way unsure do the build but don't publish the dims. I'd be just as interested to follow the process without dims.

[Derek Cohen]

Thank you for all the replies. In the end I have decided that I shall post dimensions where they are pertinent, but the build, and the questions that are raised by and during the build, is really what re-creating The Chair is all about.

I asked the same question at WoodCentral but have received very few replies so far. Still, one comment was made, and it helped me return to the roots of this endeavour.

I was asked a while back why I chose to build a copy of this chair rather than simply build one to my own design. I much prefer building my own designs. Indeed, this is the first time I have consciously copied the design of someone else. I see it as a challenge. Frankly, it is easier to build something that does not resemble anything else - then no one will know how inaccurate you are! Building a replica of The Chair without a plan to follow is the most difficult challenge I have set myself so far.

The Chair was designed to be built with CNC power tools and finished with a few handtools. Well I do plan to use some power tools, such as a bandsaw, for roughing out. For me the issue is partly whether it can be built with handtools, and also whether Wegner created constructional shortcuts for machine use.

I have been mentally constructing this chair for some months now. There are parts that are better understood, such as the reason for the mortice-and-tenon shape that is used (I shall show pictures when the time comes). And I've come up with ideas for handwork - for example, how to do the stepped mortice-and-tenon joints with handtools rather than a power router.

There are other joints that are scary still, such as the finger joints at the join of the arms and chair back. There is an organisational system that underlies the whole build that Wegner developed, and this is beginning to become clearer. I agree with you that all this is the interesting part, and I assume that others will find the exploration as exciting as I. Hence blogging it on the forum. I trust this will create much discussion, and we shall learn something for ourselves. How much fun is that! http://www.woodcentral.com/webbbs/smileys/smile.gif


Regards from Perth


Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Wegner built prototypes of each design, mostly by hand and worked through the production process of each piece in the shop along side the cabinetmakers that would ultimately be producing them. I so admire his work for this reason, the result is one of a designer who did not cheat the process or take the material for granted at any step along the way and maintained incredibly high standards for how his designs would be produced. His work helped to maintain our craft rather than to bastardize it like so many mass production giants.

His designs were produced before CNC equipment.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Brian

Here is a video of The Chair being manufactured. I used the term CNC, but that is not quite correct. I just do not know the correct one .. sanding machine?

http://www.pp.dk/index.php?page=gallery&cat=14&id=173

Wegner did make models, but models may not reflect the way the full size chair was built, only the way it looked.

What is shown in the following video is that The Chair evolved - at least with the joinery between the arm and the back - the finger joint replacing a doweled butt joint - in the search of a more stable connection.

http://www.pp.dk/index.php?page=gallery&cat=14&id=189

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Brian Holcombe]

Derek,

The chair was designed in 1949, it's currently produced partially by CNC, that was not the case in 1949 when it was being made by Johannes Hansen. Hans Wegner built models and full scale prototypes. In an interview with the current owner of Carl Hansen and Son he recounted Wegner's process which involved building the full scale prototypes and working along side the craftsmen who would be building the chairs to work out each detail until he was confident that they would be produced exactly as intended.

[Sean Hughto]

Frankly, it is easier to build something that does not resemble anything else - then no one will know how inaccurate you are! Building a replica of The Chair without a plan to follow is the most difficult challenge I have set myself so far.

It may be easier not to be second guessed regarding the fidelity of one's copy to an original, but i would suggest that compared to the challenge of making something original and good, it is by far easier to make a good copy.