Help! My new block plane's blade doesn't make contact with wood

[Sara Goeking]

Hi Wise Woodworking Community,
First, thanks for everything on this site. So far I've only lurked here as a registered user and have learned a lot.

I have a newbie question about planes. I just purchased my first plane (not counting the $20 Borg bench plane I've been using), a Stanley 60-1/2 block plane, and something seems a bit out of whack. The cutting iron will not protrude to the bottom of the plane bed even when fully forward. Put another way, even when the mouth is open as wide as possible, as I move the blade forward it approaches the front of the mouth opening before reaching the bottom of the mouth. So no wood is being contacted by the blade.

It's as if the blade is at the wrong angle to the bed - is that possible? Since the frog and base are one solid piece, it doesn't seem possible to adjust this angle without a LOT of elbow grease. Or am I overlooking a really basic adjustment? I know I need to do some basic tuning before really using this thing, but being unable to make the cutter even contact wood seems wrong.

On the bright side, I actually enjoyed using my $20 Borg plane and am looking forward to using a smoother, smaller plane for trim and cabinet installs!

Thanks,
Sara

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Not to sound rude if this is really basic, but have you got the blade the right way round? A block plane like that is almost certainly a "bevel up" plane - the blade is installed with the flat back against the bed of the of plane, reverse of how it would go in a plane with a chipbreaker. It sounds like you've got the blade with the bevel down. Even if you could open the mouth enough to get the blade to clear, it probably wouldn't work in that orientation because the transition from the bevel to the face of the blade would contact the wood before the cutting edge unless you sharpened the plane blade with a really acute angle, (which wouldn't hold up long in use.)

[David Weaver]

Check for burrs on the casting, and check for rounding at the outside edges of the bed to see if there's anything holding the iron up higher than it should be. If the iron is flush against the casting/bed and it still can't get out of the plane to the wood, then there's a problem with the plane, and I'd send it back where it came from.

Bevel is up, right?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

The Stanley 60 1/2 is a bevel-up plane. The blade goes in with the beveled side facing up. If you put it bevel down then you will get what you describe. It will hit the front of the plane.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

I guess we all were replying at the same time. Sorry. What they said^^^

[Sara Goeking]

Thanks for the quick replies. The bevel is indeed facing up. And I can't see any gaps at all between the bottom (unbeveled) side of the cutting iron and the bed.

[Chris Vandiver]

Photos would be a great help. Is this a new plane?

[John Crawford]

Take the blade out, and notice that there are little notches in the blade. Could you have set the blade too high (retracted) initially? Try setting it in the plane so a different notch is engaged. (Hard to explain, but you should see this easily....)

[Sara Goeking]

275815275816275817The first image shows how I have the blade seated, with the lower hole engaged on the peg connected to the depth adjustment. The next two photos show the mouth about 1/2 open, with the blade well above the bed, and then with the mouth all way open, at which point the blade begins to contact wood. Also, the bed seems fairly flat - if anything it's slightly convex front-to-back and just a titch concave side-to-side. Any advice is appreciated, and I'm not too proud to be insulted by really basic suggestions!

David, I checked for burrs and rounding at the edges, and it seems that the blade is flat on its bed. If I need to send it back I will - just don't want to give up on it if it's my problem and not the plane's (it is new, by the way).

[David Weaver]

I can't see anything else you can do to fix it, there just isn't much there on block planes and that one is new manufacturer and supposedly a precision tool. If everything is properly seated and it doesn't project below the sole, it's got to go back and be exchanged for one that works.

[Mel Fulks]

Many years ago I had that happen . The iron had a wide slot cut through it that was not long enough and had to be lengthened . What I don't remember is whether it was the blade that supposed to go with the plane or if I altered something that was mismatched.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

Yeah - that's just odd. You could probably get more blade projection using the other hole, but if the blade is fully bedding against the sole properly, and the problem is the blade hitting the mouth opening, that's not really the problem. The first photo makes it look like the sliding mouth plate is a bit long though - with the front of the plate just barely protruding at the front end of the plane like that, I wouldn't expect to see so much of the plate visible in the mouth area. It looks like in that first image, even with the mouth plate proud at the front end of the plane, you can still see a quarter inch of it in the mouth opening.

If you're able to exchange the plane, I'd do so, otherwise I'd be tempted to file the back of the sliding mouth plate.

[David Weaver]

I should backtrack and say if it's just the blade not going far enough that's causing the problem, just change holes for the adjusters. If it's hitting the back of the mouth, that's a problem you won't be able to correct.

So I pretty much just repeated what Joshua said.

[Chris Vandiver]

Whatever the reason, it is an issue with the mouth and not the blade. I would return it, if you can. If you do return it I would suggest biting the bullet and buying either a Lie Nielsen low angle block plane(my preference) or the Veritas low angle block plane. Both are REALLY GOOD planes and both are made in North America. Lifetime guarantees as well!

http://www.lie-nielsen.com/block-planes/adjustable-mouth-block-planes/

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=47881&cat=1,41182,48942


Good luck and happy woodworking!

[Mel Fulks]

I just looked at one of mine, not the one I mentioned before. It has ground notches on the bottom of the iron and there are three notches that could never be used without grinding the slot longer . I see with your pics they have moved on to a different set up. I think they need to perfect ONE system. You might have an iron that was a set up sample. I would take more pics showing top and bottom of the iron and send them to mfg. and talk with them. If it is a defect they should send another one. I once bought a cutter head that was defective .Mfg kept telling me I was setting up wrong. I sent it back and they finally acknowledged it was a set up piece that should not have slipped through ,apologized ,and sent a good one.

[Jonathan McCullough]

In that third photo the blade looks like it's 1/8" past the sole, which would be much too far. Am I seeing it incorrectly or is it a camera/parallax misperception? I'd open the mouth as wide as it will go, then start extending the blade until it just started cutting wood, then close the mouth to suit the need.

[Shawn Pixley]

I have an identical plane. Mine works ok. But compared to your picture, my mouth seems to open much further.

275822

PS the streaks are wax, not rust

[Malcolm Schweizer]

They might just be able to send you a new throat plate to remedy the problem. If you didn't want to wait for that, you could just take the throat plate out and file it shorter at the mouth end. I suspect that may be the only issue- the throat plate is too long.

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Sara,

Welcome to the Creek. Your location is not indicated in your profile. You may live close to another member who would be willing to look at this to see what may be the problem. I know I would if you are near the Portland, Oregon area.

Looking at the pictures you posted and what Shawn posted makes me think these are more custom planes from Stanley and not a precision assembly line production.

My thought was the bedding angle may be machined wrong or the blade could be tilted back a bit if the adjusting mechanism is too low.

If it can be returned, then that may be the best solution.

Have you tried taking the sliding plate off?

Yours looks to be extended while the mouth is still tight. Compare that with some of the mouths shown on block planes in this post:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?123401-Fettle-to-the-Metal-With-LA-Blocks&p=1246005#post1246005

Another possibility could be the sole is concave from end to end.

My guess is everyone wants know what you find and how this progresses.

jtk

[Bradley Gray]

Is there any chance that this plane has a movable frog? if this were a jack plane that would cause this. (the frog, if it is adjustable, will be held by 2 screws visible with blade and cap iron removed)

[Derek Cohen]

Ensure that the blade is fully seated on the bed.

Check that the blade is flat and not a banana, causing it to lift at the bevel end.

Try the blade adjuster on the rear hole (although this should only be necessary if the blade was shorter as a result of several grindings over the space of some years).

If the blade takes so much effort to adjust, the lever cap screw may be too tight. If the lever cap is too tight, this may also be interfering with the blade, perhaps pushing it down at the adjuster side, thereby lifting the bevel end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Matthews]

These things are commodities, not collector's items.

Take it back to where you bought it. See if they can set it up properly.
If they can't adjust it, get a replacement.

FYI - I tried these reissued Sweethart planes when they first came out, they have excessive 'lash' or coarse adjustment mechanisms.

My guess is that the blade isn't fully seated onto the pin at the Norris adjuster.

[Alfred Kraemer]

If all the critical surfaces are fairly straight -bottom,bed, blade - then it could be that the bed is too high as David suggested. In your third pic it seems that the edge of the bed below the blade where it wmeets the sole is higher than one would expect.
There usually isn't a 'step' but an almost sharp edge.
If that turns out to be the problem the plane should be returned.

Alfred

[Prashun Patel]

Can you seat the adjustment pin in the upper hole of the blade?
Your pix suggest to me that the blade is not seated flush enough on the bed.

I know too that if the lever cap is too tight, it creates problems too. Try backing off on that tension.

Last, what are you testing on and how are you testing? Can you feel the blade projecting below the surface of the plane? Are you testing on a narrow (3/4") board edge? I mean to say, let's eliminate the flatness of your board as a variable.

Before you return it, I would diagnose this further; I'm not yet convinced the product is defective.

[Sara Goeking]

Wow, thanks for all the replies and suggestions. In Shawn's photo, the first thing I noticed is what Alfred and a couple others suggested: the bed seems too high on my plane. There is definitely a bit of a "step" there rather than a sharp edge.

Jim, I'm in northern Utah. That's a very informative link you posted. The planes in those photos, as well as Shawn's, look like the blade is a lot lower (closer to the sole) when barely extended into the mouth opening. To answer your question about the sliding plate, when I remove it then I need to extend the blade about 1/4" to get the blade tip near the sole. And the sole isn't concave; if anything it's a tad convex. I used your "paper test" to check for gaps under the blade, and with the lever cap just finger-snug, there's no movement of the paper on either side nor in the center.

Prashun, I've been testing for contact on short sections of 3/4" and 9/16" thick Doug-fir that I cut on my table saw and checked for flatness. I've been carefully trying to 'feel' any projection of the blade below the sole and I can't, unless I open the mouth all the way and then extend the blade almost to the front of the mouth opening. The lever cap is only as tight as it needs to be to keep it in place (I've often heard what you said - that overtightening is a common problem with these planes). If I seat the blade on the upper adjustment pin, then the front of the blade extends about 3/8" past the rear of the mouth opening, which seems too far.

Along those lines, if a possible solution is grinding the back of the mouth plate to allow a bigger opening, should I be worried about the length of blade that's unsupported by the bed?

Based on the other photos and a couple of your comments, it seems like the bed might just be too high, or that it's truncated at the rear of the mouth (i.e., the entire mouth should be farther forward, if that's possible). I'm still waiting to hear back from Stanley's customer support but will let you know how this turns out.

[Chris Griggs]

Who did you buy it from? I would think you'll have a quicker better response from the retailer. A block plane should not have this issue. Return/Exchange the plane to the retailer if at all possible. Let them them deal with Stanley. Good luck Sara!

[Sara Goeking]

Jonathan, that was just the angle of my poor photography. It was just a hair beyond the sole in that photo.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah ,I agree with Chris,if you bought it from a store. If you bought it by mail I would talk directly to maker.

[Judson Green]

Yep, I'd return it too. That one must have slipped past the inspector.

[bob blakeborough]

275815275816275817The first image shows how I have the blade seated, with the lower hole engaged on the peg connected to the depth adjustment. The next two photos show the mouth about 1/2 open, with the blade well above the bed, and then with the mouth all way open, at which point the blade begins to contact wood. Also, the bed seems fairly flat - if anything it's slightly convex front-to-back and just a titch concave side-to-side. Any advice is appreciated, and I'm not too proud to be insulted by really basic suggestions!

David, I checked for burrs and rounding at the edges, and it seems that the blade is flat on its bed. If I need to send it back I will - just don't want to give up on it if it's my problem and not the plane's (it is new, by the way).Looking at the first picture showing a top view of the installed iron, have you the two holes where the blade is dropped onto the pin which allows the norris adjuster to advance and retract the blade (as well as the lateral adjustments). Have you tried moving the blade forward to the second hole?

*Edit* Now that I have read the entire thread I can see this has already been mentioned... lol

[Jim Koepke]

The planes in those photos, as well as Shawn's, look like the blade is a lot lower (closer to the sole) when barely extended into the mouth opening. To answer your question about the sliding plate, when I remove it then I need to extend the blade about 1/4" to get the blade tip near the sole.

This does sound like a manufacturing problem. Hopefully there isn't a problem returning it.

jtk

[Jim Foster]

Sometimes there can be a bit of casting flash to the right or the left of a machined surface. If you have a 6" straight edge I'd set it against the bed in a few place and see if you can determine the problem. The side of the blade may work as well. I have one or two bench planes that the blades never seat against the bed without a jiggle or two, but fit fine once in correctly.

[Chris Vandiver]

Measure the length of the adjustable mouth piece and then verify the length with Shawn's plane. You can then rule out(or in)whether or not the mouthpiece is the issue. Also, check with a straightedge layed across the Norris adjuster down to the mouth and see if there is full contact and that somehow the blade is getting lifted up from the edge of the mouth opening. Finally, check the thickness of the intersection of the sole/blade bed(where the blade exits the plane). It should be a knife edge.

[Alfred Kraemer]

If indeed the sole/bed intersection is not right, it might be that the sole is too thick an needs to be 'thinned'. That would certainly be a reason to take it back. I doubt they would make the change but rather replace it with a new one.
Opening the mouth of the plane would have the drawback that was mentioned: an unsupported cutting edge. This is a bevel-up plane I m pretty sure.
In general I don't like opening the mouth of a plane. The plane shouldn't reqiure it to work, and one can usually much more easily find a plane with a 'big mouth' than one with a small mouth that can be used where wood is tear-out prone.

Alfred



Measure the length of the adjustable mouth piece and then verify the length with Shawn's plane. You can then rule out(or in)whether or not the mouthpiece is the issue. Also, check with a straightedge layed across the Norris adjuster down to the mouth and see if there is full contact and that somehow the blade is getting lifted up from the edge of the mouth opening. Finally, check the thickness of the intersection of the sole/blade bed(where the blade exits the plane). It should be a knife edge.

[Hilton Ralphs]

I can't help but wonder if this thread would have even made three pages if the OP's name had been Steven instead of Sara. :p

Send the thing back.

[george wilson]

3 pages about this???????? OF COURSE it's a bevel up plane. How could anyone think the frog is adjustable. Did you look at the pictures? Put the pin in the 2nd. hole. Of it still won't work,send it back and buy a better plane,like a LV or a LN.

[glenn bradley]

I've seen three pages about far less important issues than helping someone unfamiliar with hand tools ;-) I too vote for defective. When it comes to new planes, I stick to Lee Valley for the basics. That is just a personal preference, there are several quality makers. I also have some older items that perform well.

[george wilson]

There are FIVE pages on a machinist's forum about incorrect terms and bad spelling that machinists use. Surprising because usually if anyone mentions the constant poor spelling,they are labeled "spelling Nazis",and get a barrage of angry replies. The fact is,3/4 of them can't tell the difference between Vise and Vice,to and too,your and you're,etc.. One guy spells "do" as "doo". The list goes on forever. I'm glad I didn't start that thread!!:)

Does anyone here call an electric drill a "drill motor"? Anyone here say"lathing" when they mean "turning"? And,don't say lathing are the little strips of wood under plaster. That is LATH!!!:)

I know I make mistakes,but try to be reasonable about communications. For several years,I did not write at all,except to do time sheets and order stuff. That's when you start forgetting your schooling.

[Jim Matthews]

Send the thing back.

Amen, Reverend.

[Tony Zaffuto]

There are FIVE pages on a machinist's forum about incorrect terms and bad spelling that machinists use. Surprising because usually if anyone mentions the constant poor spelling,they are labeled "spelling Nazis",and get a barrage of angry replies. The fact is,3/4 of them can't tell the difference between Vise and Vice,to and too,your and you're,etc.. One guy spells "do" as "doo". The list goes on forever. I'm glad I didn't start that thread!!:)

Does anyone here call an electric drill a "drill motor"? Anyone here say"lathing" when they mean "turning"? And,don't say lathing are the little strips of wood under plaster. That is LATH!!!:)

I know I make mistakes,but try to be reasonable about communications. For several years,I did not write at all,except to do time sheets and order stuff. That's when you start forgetting your schooling.


I've always called a drill motor a drill motor (doesn't everyone?)! Since I spent time in the carpenter's trade union decades ago, I'm well aware of lathing.


Back to the OP, before sending it back, maybe there is someone nearby her, to take a quick look-see. Don't know if it has been mentioned, but it may be something as simple as the adjuster being assembled wrong.

[Jim Koepke]

There are FIVE pages on a machinist's forum about incorrect terms and bad spelling that machinists use. Surprising because usually if anyone mentions the constant poor spelling,they are labeled "spelling Nazis",and get a barrage of angry replies. The fact is,3/4 of them can't tell the difference between Vise and Vice,to and too,your and you're,etc.. One guy spells "do" as "doo". The list goes on forever. I'm glad I didn't start that thread!!:)

Does anyone here call an electric drill a "drill motor"? Anyone here say"lathing" when they mean "turning"? And,don't say lathing are the little strips of wood under plaster. That is LATH!!!:)


George,

You make valid points. Please do not see what follows as being a critique of your comments.

For educated people there isn't an excuse for sloppy communications. Often the offender will say, "well you know what I mean." When in reality their communication is so convoluted there is absolutely no way of recognizing what they are saying.

Since my spelling is not the greatest I try to refrain from castigating others for theirs. Also we have members here from all over the world and even here in the United States many use English as a second language.

On another forum one of the "spelling Nazis" used to deride me for my spelling. It was an incentive for me to improve. Now my spelling is usually better than his so payback is only fair and fun.

Sometimes I do use the term "drill motor." Picked it up from an ex Navy person. When in the shop and I want my wife to hand me the right one I will say, "please hand me the Makita." Otherwise it is the egg beater or brace.

I have to chuckle when vice is used instead of vise. I have given up many vices but seldom will I give up a vise.

Until recently my habit was to use effect for both affect and effect. Now I remember that one is a noun and one is a verb by knowing they are in reverse order alphabetically. (noun - verb / effect - affect)

Clear communication is important, but people who purposely hamper communication or intimidate others by intentionally selecting the most obtuse meaning of everything they hear are annoying to work with. Someone who is struggling to communicate or who is having difficulty with words can be guided to improvement. Of course there are some who wish to remain stupid. For the one who just wants to belittle others, there may be no cure.

That is another one of my errors, getting hear and here mixed up in written communications.

jtk

[Steve Beadle]

"Clear communication is important, but people who purposely hamper communication or intimidate others by intentionally selecting the most obtuse meaning of everything they hear are annoying to work with."

Jim, I can't hardly fail to disagree with you less!

(Now try to figure out what I meant by that!)
;>)

[george wilson]

I didn't start or participate much at all in the 5 page thread I just referred to. My point was,there are even less useful threads than this 3 page one.:)

[william watts]

Could it be you received a 60 1/2 plane body but a 9 1/2 blade for the standard angle plane. The holes may be in different locations and the blade length my be different, anyway it should be returned. If that the problem there may be other packaging errors out there I think this thread is 3 pages long because its a interesting question.

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

The original post made it sound like the blade was contacting the mouth plate before protruding. The pictures made it look to me like the mouth plate was too long and causing this. I agree if the plane was purchase new, the best thing would be to return it. I got a little lost by the discussion of adjusting the bedding if the problem is the mouth in front of the plane.

If the sliding mouth plate is of question, and not the blade bedding, the immediate test that comes to mind is to simply remove it, and see if the plane can function without it. If the plane sits on the bed properly, it shouldn't be an issue on stock wide enough.

[Sara Goeking]

After coming out of my turkey coma I spent some more time with this Stanley plane. I still don't know if the mouthpiece is too long, but it's a moot point because the blade is extended way too far in front of the bed before it reaches the sole and starts shaving. So I'm assuming that the problem is either a) it came with the wrong blade, or b) the bed itself is too thick (both suggested by earlier posts).

Regardless, when I tested the blade fully extended (nearly 5/8" forward from the rear of the mouth), it was angled laterally relative to the sole. In other words, one side of the bed is higher/thicker than the other. It kind of looked skewed to me, and when I started shaving I confirmed that as the test board got more and more out of square. So yeah, the Stanley is safely back in the box and en route whence it came.

On the bright side, I just ordered a Veritas apron plane from LV's cyber Monday sale. I am VERY excited to use this thing for the trimwork I'm doing in my house right now. I also have some cabinets to scribe and doors to fit, so if I need something bigger in the future, I'll probably spring for the LV low-angle block plane. No more trying to be cheap :)

Thanks again for your suggestions, informed discussion, and even some curmudgeonly needling (kidding! I know my questions reveal my inexperience). If anyone has any other suggestions regarding tools, books, etc., feel free to send me a message if you don't want to keep this thread going. Ideally I'd like to find a more experienced mentor in my area; all the carpenters I know locally do framing and measure to the nearest 1/4", so we don't have a lot in common.

One last thing for the grammar Nazis: Remember, every time you make a typo, the errorists win.

[george wilson]

My reference to the 5 pages of spelling on another forum had nothing to do with your spelling. It was an example of how many pages could be generated on a subject of no importance. Your spelling is fine.:)

Now,here is some curmudgeonly but CORRECT advice: Never buy a new Stanley plane. There are plenty of good OLD ones on ebay. Sometimes you might have to lap a sole flat(that shouldn't be a problem with a block plane). Otherwise,they are a lot better ythan the new stuff. Better yet,save up your money and get a Lee Valley or Lie Nielson block plane. They are as good as any ever built. LN's are copies of old Stanleys,but much better made. Thicker castings,better machining,better materials. LV's are new designs,very well made. Especially the NX60. But,it costs money!! I had their original block plane,with the 3 finger scallops,at work for a long time. It worked fine. I think you can get a PM VII blade for it. I love my VII blade in my NX 60.

You can often find old tools at yard sales,too.

I must say,though,I like my Chinese claw hammer from Lowe's better than my old Stanleys. It is harder,and perfectly well ground. Not so hard as to shed pieces,though!!