Making Tenons on the Shaper

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, in response to a few queries regarding rail and stile door construction, I'm posting this short photo essay of one approach using a small shaper to machine the components.

This door is a simple A&C style with no moulding, a standard frame profile could of course be fabricated by using the appropriate cutter.

The photographs in order illustrate the following;

- grooving the rails and stiles to hold the flat door panel using a grooving cutter. Normally I use a power feeder for this, however I'm illustrating a Euro or Shaw type shaper guard in this case

- the tenon hood is installed on the shaper, along with a 125 X 50mm carbide rebate cutter

- the tenon table is installed on the shaper sliding table. The tenon table has a large charcoal coloured guard that covers the shaper cutter except when the workpiece is being cut

- the fence and stop are installed on the tenon table

- the workpiece and a backer board are held down by the eccentric clamp mounted on the shaper sliding table. Note that the cutter is covered by the sliding guard while the workpiece is insertered or removed from the tenon table.

- the view of the cutter/workpiece ( taken with the shaper off and the clamp removed).

- the completed rail and tenon door assembly.

Regards, Rod.





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[Prashun Patel]

drool.........

[Tom Bain]

Rod -- it looks like you are cutting each tenon cheek separately, rather than both at that same time? Also, curious how deep can you make that cheek cut with your shaper?

Thanks,
Tom

[Rod Sheridan]

Hello Tom, I do have two rebate heads so I could stack them with a spacer and cut both cheeks at once.

This was a pair of doors, so I decided to illustrate the one head method.

My pair of rebate cutters will cut to 25mm, my single cutter will cut to 74mm deep..............Regards, Rod.

[J.R. Rutter]

Nice. I could see leaving the groover and rebate head loaded up on that spindle ready to raise and do work at a moment's notice. One thing that we do for rails with a profile is to cope the ends first, then run the groove / sticking cut. That way, you don't need a profiled backer.

[Tom Bain]

74mm, wow, that's a big tenon! Not owning a shaper (but always thinking it would be nice), is that something you can do in a single pass with your machine, or do you make multiple passes? Also, I assume it would be possible to make stop cuts for the grooves on stiles if you didn't want the groove to show through on the top or bottom, although I imagine that would preclude the use of a power feeder. It's a pretty sweet setup, regardless.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi, 74mm is one pass.

Yes, you can do stopped moulding. (I call it insert moulding), you need a stop and start block attached to the shaper, and often a jig to hold the part.

I don't own a router, I much prefer the shaper..........Rod.

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi JR, I usually cope first as well, this time for two doors I did it backwards........Rod.

[Peter Quinn]

74mm, wow, that's a big tenon! Not owning a shaper (but always thinking it would be nice), is that something you can do in a single pass with your machine, or do you make multiple passes? Also, I assume it would be possible to make stop cuts for the grooves on stiles if you didn't want the groove to show through on the top or bottom, although I imagine that would preclude the use of a power feeder. It's a pretty sweet setup, regardless.


I've done stopped dadoes on the shaper with a long fence attachment, stop block at each end, works great but the first time you plunge into the spinning shaper cutter it sure keeps your attention focused! Especially on narrow parts…and the shaw guard probably isn't your friend on plunge cuts, maybe it could be made serve that function? Mine sits in a drawer. Its a relatively harmless operation if you use push blocks and remember where your hands are at all times. A block on the fence to keep hands from touching cutter head would not be bad call either, and a chip limiting cutter is a really really real good idea.

Thanks for the pics Rod. Its my favorite method, though I prefer the one cut method, I use an adjustable groover with the plates flipped, with everything run face down, pushes any stock thickness error to the back of the door. Any way you slice it sure beats a TS for speed, safety, and accuracy. DC is better too IME.

[Michael W. Clark]

Rod,
Nice set up. If you don't mind me asking, what type of rebate and grooving cutter (brand and size) are you using? I thought you mentioned this somewhere but I can't find it.

I just picked up a new-to-me shaper and am curious. I'm a ways off from purchasing tooling though, but thought I would ask anyway.

Mike

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Michael, the smaller ones are made by Omas.

Felder have some good tooling sales on a yearly basis, worth checking out.

Most tooling in the world is metric, so I have a 30mm and a 1 1/4" spindle, the 30mm tooling is often much less costly..................Rod.

[Michael W. Clark]

Thanks Rod,
My shaper has a 1-1/4" spindle. Its a Delta 5HP, not a SCMI or heavy Euro machine so can't (I won't) turn as large a cutters as them. I wanted the 1-1/4" spindle so that if I ever upgrade, my tooling still works.

I'll check out Omas and Felder when I start looking at tooling.

Thanks,

Mike

[Mel Fulks]

I much prefer the delta 5 horse . Had terrible luck with SCMI broken cables, Christmas tree lights hanging down and broken, spindles with lousy too big here too small there diameters ,wrong parts hard to get ,right parts harder to get,no overhang table making clamping on jigs extremely difficult. I admit some of newer deltas have some of these problems. The best delta was made in the 80s ,can't remember model number. It did a lot of heavy work.

[Jeff Duncan]

If your talking about the industrial Delta's, they were actually made by either SCM or Invicta, depending on the actual date. To my knowledge Delta never made their own industrial tools. If your talking the optimistically named Delta HD shapers, well not fair to compare with the machines shown above;).

Mel, not sure what kind of SCM shaper you had, but the older heavier ones like the T-130 and T-160 are built like tanks and second only to Martins, (in terms of what's available in this country anyway),…..IMHO;) I don't have any experience with the lighter T-100's, I've seen a couple around but never got any hands-on with one. I do have a T-160 though and it's hard to tell if it wasn't originally designed to mount a gun turret to:eek: There was certainly no concern with using too much cast iron on it anyway! Only problem is the wiring they used back then, (late 60's, early 70's), wasn't the best and mine needs to be replaced:o

JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Jeff, I've been told the Deltas were made in Brazil , some of them had that no overhang top ,but the one I used was much like an old shaper. I like the old shapers ,but many of those are just one or two speed and don't have changeable spindles.The used SCMI shapers are pretty common around here and they are beefy LOOKING. I was not exaggerating one bit about the defects I've seen with them. The most aggravating is that foot operated pin to lock the spindle. I've seen guys spend a day trying to fix those .....and crawl out of them aged and beaten.

[Stephen Cherry]

I have a early 90's scmi t110- not a brute, but no lightweight either. At one point I tried to measure spindle runout, and spindle verticalness, and guess what- couldn't measure any of it.

Basically, a .250 cutter makes a .250 slot, within the accuracy of the tools I have to measure with.

So, while there may be some shortcomings with the scmi machines, they are OK by me. Plus, it can turn this cutter set for tenons:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=257674&d=1294193734&thumb=1

[jack forsberg]

Get a wadkin and get serious .get with the times:rolleyes::rolleyes:
spindle molder are for newbies! and what you put a little square inset in yourself . Wow


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=946htJ1dLc4

i like how he blowes it off at the end:p

[Mel Fulks]

Found name of the shaper I referred to : DELTA RS- 15. The over hanging top makes it more versatile. Spindle lock is a simply hand operated design accessed by opening the door.

[Peter Quinn]

Funny to think how quickly the CNC machining centers have made all of it so obsolete. Where I work CNC is a four letter word, we still use an old delta tenon jig not the TS. A 50 year old single ended tenoner would be a great leap forward. What is the set up time like on one of those Jack? I've heard they can be challenging, a shaper may be quicker on small runs, any thoughts?

[jack forsberg]

not the wadkin Peter. piece of cake. you would still be changing the inset tooling on the spindle moulder. no big heads here for 8" tenons. can a spindle molder do 8"?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qi1ctWU0Tjc





Funny to think how quickly the CNC machining centers have made all of it so obsolete. Where I work CNC is a four letter word, we still use an old delta tenon jig not the TS. A 50 year old single ended tenoner would be a great leap forward. What is the set up time like on one of those Jack? I've heard they can be challenging, a shaper may be quicker on small runs, any thoughts?

[Mel Fulks]

Well, I've used several single end tenoners . Pretty fast to set up ....without copes. That's a little harder .IMO the best way to speed set up is use a sharpie to mark all adjustments as to what they do and which way to turn them .Without that it's easy to turn wrong wheel or turn in wrong direction . I prefer the two knife high speed steel shear cut heads,and they will do a lot of work before needing sharpening. Many insist on changing over to the spiral carbide type, that is a mistake on the older slower speed machines as it makes the machine much slower.

[jack forsberg]

total agree on the carbide for solid wood not being a match for HSS.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Jack,
Looks like the Wadkin was working pretty hard to cut that small tenon.;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q26weaoglVs&feature=youtu.be

Joe

[Peter Quinn]

That wadkin is a pretty smooth machine, thanks for the vid Jack. Very well though ought. I'd seen a Powermatic tenoner, are those similar? Looks like Joe's set up handles the double tenon with ease. Can the wadkin handle those, or are you limited to the one large traditional tenon? Large being relative to stock thickness. I could probably spin a 19" cutter head with the hood off on the shaper, but wouldn't want to be in the room for that. My biggest head is just under 8" and makes a tenon just under 3". I would argue that I could come pretty close to tieing if not beating that guys set up time even with cutter change starting from zero. But for a shop that does a lot of large tenons I can't imagine beating the Wadkin.

[jack forsberg]

That wadkin is a pretty smooth machine, thanks for the vid Jack. Very well though ought. I'd seen a Powermatic tenoner, are those similar? Looks like Joe's set up handles the double tenon with ease. Can the wadkin handle those, or are you limited to the one large traditional tenon? Large being relative to stock thickness. I could probably spin a 19" cutter head with the hood off on the shaper, but wouldn't want to be in the room for that. My biggest head is just under 8" and makes a tenon just under 3". I would argue that I could come pretty close to tieing if not beating that guys set up time even with cutter change starting from zero. But for a shop that does a lot of large tenons I can't imagine beating the Wadkin.


The wadkin up top does have 5 heads (1 1/4" spindles) so you could i guess set up a coping head to do that cut. Mind you you may what the Wadkin SET model for that type work.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBRP8vQ-0TQ

[Mel Fulks]

The cope heads for the older machines take round knives that are difficult to grind . Some of them have been fitted with corg heads that work well. The last modern tenon machine I used was ,I think , a Greenlee. Used tenon machines don't seem to be in demand and there are some bargains .

[Joe Calhoon]

Rod, thank you for starting this interesting thread. You have a good setup for A-C type joinery. We end up doing about the same for square edge work. S4S the stock then use a adjustable groover for the slot and stacked rebate heads or single for the stub tenon if it is only a couple. We have dedicated square edge tooling but find the adj. groover is about as easy and clean. One suggestion that would improve your efficiency is to not use the tenon hood unless your cutter diameter exceeds the shaper hood capacity. This way you can use the fence as a bump stop for pre cut to length stock. Using the crosscut fence stops will get tricky and lead to inaccuracy for different length material. For end coping and tenoning these fence stops do not serve much purpose on a shaper. A few of the Euro shaper Mfgs used to offer cutoff saws for shapers but quit doing that because of safety issues. In that case the stops were useful. Flipping down the overhead guard will give you the same protection as the tenon hood guard.



Tenoning, coping, slotting and mortising are everyday jobs in our door and window shop. We are back and fourth between 15 to 20 cope and tenon setups any given month. We have a simple modern single end Colombo tenoner that is great for batch quantities but find a good sliding table shaper is still hard to beat for one off and specialty cuts. The cut shown in the video is about a 2-minute setup from bare spindle including the backup block, shaft height and length gauge setup. Our tenoner is about 4 to 7 minutes to change out a 2 or 3-cutter stack and the backup blocks. Another couple minutes to set the crosscut fence and saw blade if tenon length changes. I would bet an old horizontal shaft tenoner setting the copes from scratch couldn’t come close to that.

The old tenoners are only practical for dedicated setups in a working shop. I like old iron but when it comes to tenoners, shapers and tooling there has been a lot of improvement and safety. If you like the old machines the Jet would be my only Wadkin choice. Better yet would be German iron like Festo, Funk, Martin and a few more from the 70s and 80s. These are single shaft machines that will accept modern tooling and have repeatable fence and saw settings. The only reason for horizontal shafts is if you need tenons over 5 or 6 inches in length.


Joe

[Mel Fulks]

I don't agree the old tenon machines are impractical except for dedicated use . They weren't made for dedicated use. With the Greenlee we might tenon one door on saw with dados,but for as many as three doors we would always use the single end tenoner. Marking the adjustments and keeping them lubed,they are practical .When, the tenoners were used for production stock they usually had one operator but ,yes ,that's pretty much gone.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks for the comments Joe.

I can use the fence to set the first tenon length, then the stop resting on the shoulder of the first tenon to control the piece length.

You're correct, I could use my standard fence assembly, however it interferes with the cutter guard on the tenon table. (Remember mine is made for EU regulations).

I posted the photographs simply to show what a hobby level shaper setup would look like, there certainly are better setups for production runs. For a few doors my low end shaper does a nice job, and the Euro guarding is good for people who might otherwise not use good guards.

I would be very interested in some photographs of what you make, and how you make them. Do you make anything like the European wood windows with the robber weatherstrip and gasketing or do you make more typical NA style windows?..........Regards, Rod.

[Joe Calhoon]

Hi Rod,
OK, I now see your methodology. There are many ways to skin the cat depending on what you have to work with. I was thinking of using the overhead guard like you have in the first picture on the standard fence to guard when using the sliding table. You do not have a low end setup! You should have seen what I started with 36 years ago.
I teach shaper and windowmaking classes part time to both hobby and pro level woodworkers. Safety is always the first concern with shapers. I am always amazed at how well tooled the hobby guys are.
In the shop we build both Euro and NA style doors and windows.

I would like to post more pictures here but they always come in upside down or sideways. Is there any way to edit after they are in here?

Joe

[Jeff Duncan]

Jeff, I've been told the Deltas were made in Brazil , some of them had that no overhang top ,but the one I used was much like an old shaper. I like the old shapers ,but many of those are just one or two speed and don't have changeable spindles.The used SCMI shapers are pretty common around here and they are beefy LOOKING. I was not exaggerating one bit about the defects I've seen with them. The most aggravating is that foot operated pin to lock the spindle. I've seen guys spend a day trying to fix those .....and crawl out of them aged and beaten.

Mel, the RS-15 was made in Brazil more recently, however originally it was made in Italy by SCM for Delta. At some point it became more cost effective to have them made in Brazil by Invicta. I haven't run one of them but they seem like nice stout machines. And I completely agree about getting parts or even manuals for the older SCM machines. I've found getting info on any Euro machines as old as mine are difficult to impossible. I've talked with several people now about my T-160, including someone from SCM and for all intensive purposes my machine is an anomaly. Apparently it's so old nobody even knows they made this particular version:confused:

I have an older SCM so it doesn't have the cable system. Mine is a mechanical linkage. Like everything else on the machine though it's overbuilt, actually heavier than the Martin system! I would hazard a guess it was significantly cheaper to go to a cable system to save a few bucks;) I also like the older shapers but mostly the Euro versions. I think they're more flexible as the better ones usually have a full set of speed choices, reversing capability, as well as interchangeable spindles. I think the American shapers were better suited to being set up for an operation and running it all day.

JeffD

[Mel Fulks]

Jeff, thanks for clarification .One place has two newer deltas besides the rs 15 ,everyone prefers to use the rs15. One very strange thing about the newer ones is the table ring recess was done without referencing to table top. So unless the rings are turned to correct spot and locked, they can spin around and spoil the work ! I might have just hit a couple or three odd ball SCMIs. Worst defect was the one with varying spindle diameter, but for all I know it could have been a poor repair to a machine that fell out of a window...

[Peter Quinn]

Jeff, thanks for clarification .One place has two newer deltas besides the rs 15 ,everyone prefers to use the rs15. One very strange thing about the newer ones is the table ring recess was done without referencing to table top. So unless the rings are turned to correct spot and locked, they can spin around and spoil the work ! I might have just hit a couple or three odd ball SCMIs. Worst defect was the one with varying spindle diameter, but for all I know it could have been a poor repair to a machine that fell out of a window...


ROFL, mental picture of a 1200# shaper taking a dive out a window……..could happen. I've used a delta HD shaper I would occasionally have liked to throw out a window. We have some older SAC branded powermatics at work, basic heavy beasts, all have red foot pedals for spindle lock. Seems Delta partnered with SCMI, powermatic with SAC. They made models with a mechanical foot brake as well. Cant tell you how easy it is for a dufis to mistake that red pedal as a brake….does wonders for the spindle lock assembly when you jamb that pin in at 7K RPM's. It makes a sound that says "STOP THAT" to all but the most mentally incapable operator. My point is these parts are getting hard to come by, but would never be necessary were it not for operator error. My home shaper has to be working on 30 years old, spindle lock works perfectly, came from a small shop, single owner if the story is true. I'm in a basement with 12X24" windows at ceiling height, so hopefully mine never falls out.:rolleyes:

[Jeff Duncan]

That's interesting about the table rings. Are you saying that if they spin they're not level to the top anymore? If so that's pretty bad machining IMHO regardless of manufacturer:(

I don't doubt at all that you had some poor experiences with some machines. Only thing I'd keep in mind is if they're used you don't necessarily know what happened to them, and from what I've seen locally SCM shapers were generally used in production shops that ran machines hard. I have at least one spindle that had some variance along it's length, it could have been manufactured that way, I tend to lean more towards wear that happened to it over the years though. Similarly I had a bent spindle on another machine, but these are things you find in general with older machines. The great thing is you can still replace these spindles on SCM's as well as Martin and likely Delta's as well! I replaced the spindle as I occasionally spin a 4" corrugated head for some wide trim and having a questionable spindle was not an option;) I also have a series of fairly deep dings on one of my shaper tops indicating it was used as a bench/anvil for some period in it's past life:eek: I can't for the life of me imagine going to a Martin machine and beating the life out of something on it…..but guys who use machines they don't own, may be not all that careful using them:o

The good thing is there are a number of quality manufacturers out there to choose from when it comes to good used shapers. If I wasn't already out of room and over-shapered to begin with there's a fair looking Delta not far from me going for short money. Not sure of the model, basically looks like an RS-15 with tilting. But no more shapers for me, I'm already thinking I may have to sell one of them as I just don't have any room!

JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

I've used a delta HD shaper I would occasionally have liked to throw out a window.

I felt that way about my delta hd shaper, until I got a 1" solid spindle. Now it's a usable, light weight machine, and can handle 1.25 cope cutters just fine. It was very close to going for a ride out in the country though!

[Jeff Duncan]

I've used a delta HD shaper I would occasionally have liked to throw out a window.

Yeah I had one for my very first shaper. I had a love hate relationship with that thing from the first time I turned it on! I loved having a shaper, but I hated THAT shaper and had the same idea as you of finding a high place to throw it out of! I think I kept that machine less than a year before I started upgrading and was so glad to see it go:D

I've never used a machine with a foot powered spindle lock, but it just does't seem like the smartest location to me. The great thing about a foot brake is you can hit it without taking your eyes of the work to look for it. Trying to remember which one is the brake and which one the lock when your maybe just getting familiar with the machine, just seems like something bad waiting to happen:eek:

JeffD

[Stephen Cherry]

One more thing- I don't doubt Mels experience in any way with the scmi machines. I'm only batting 1 for 3 in terms of buying shapers where the spindle is OK.

It would be cheap insurance to stop by the local harbor freight and buy a dial indicator and stand before you throw your cash onto the table, particularly with anything that may be difficult or expensive to get a new spindle for. I know that Dave at Oella has plenty of spare scmi spindles, but they are not all together cheap either.

[Mel Fulks]

Yeah, evidently they machined the table ring place , before surfacing the table,then put the rings in and machined the whole deal and put registering mark and lock cam on both. So if you didn't know that ,and who would anticipate it?,the rings could spin around which was just like someone moving the tooling height. The rs 15 was NOT done that way. We had a job of making hundreds of fence pickets with a Dairy Queen ice cream top type cut at top. Instead of bandsawing them we made a corg knife and ran them on shaper 20 at a time ,climb cutting and using a backer. We tried forward cut with backer ,but too much tear out. Clamped the pieces in a plywood holder and used feeder to run one side of 20 at a time.They had to be cut standing up. So without a machine with overhanging top I would not have been able to clamp on special tall fence and set feeder arm at right angle to fence.

[Mel Fulks]

Stephen, the spindle on the worst one you could FEEL the unevenness, and some tooling would get stuck unless you put oil on it. It was like a washboard. If you don't know what a washboard is.... It's one of the musical instruments used in the percussion section of country music groups....

[Michael W. Clark]

Yeah mine is the 5hp Delta HD series, first shaper though and only plan to use it for RP doors as the heaviest cuts. I looked over all the heavier SCM machines and RS-15s and it's just not in the cards now. Don't have the space or power available in my current shop (just a hobbyist). Also don't know how much I will use it so I can always sell it for minimal loss or add (or replace with)a better shaper in the future and my tooling can still be used with the larger shaper.

It still has to be better and more repeatable than a router table though?

[Jeff Duncan]

Mel, that sounds like a fun setup making those pickets:D I can't imagine a shaper without an overhang to clamp on either. I clamp stuff onto my machines all the time. I know some of the smaller ones are tight, but all the industrial I've used had nice beefy tables with plenty of room to clamp up.

Michael, my opinion is any shaper is better than a router table. It comes down to what you do and how much of it. For instance, there are plenty of small pro shops using Delta HD's to make door parts and similar stuff. I do a lot of variety in my shop, so when I tried running some molding with a 2" corrugated head on the Delta….I just wasn't happy with the experience:( I had the X5 series which came with the extruded aluminum fence and I have to say that's one of the best fences on that class of shaper…..or at least was at the time. If you have that w/ the 5 hp motor and 1-1/4" spindle you can do a lot of work. Just don't try to push the machine to it's limits, the bearings and quill really aren't up to handling the big cutters. Also I don't remember the exact speed combo, but I don't think they really go slow enough to swing large RP cutters anyway;)

Oh, and that does't mean you shouldn't have a router table also if you can fit it. I still use my router table from time to time as it's handy for some smaller oddball things:)

good luck,
JeffD

[Michael W. Clark]

Hi Jeff, yes it's the one with the aluminum fences and micro adjust each side, 5hp, 1-1/4 spindle. Came with a couple of Freeborn cutters and a few others I don't recognize.

I have a NIB PC 7518 that's going in the extension of the TS. I definitely want both the RT and shaper, but don't have room at present for a separate table.

[Peter Quinn]

Yeah I had one for my very first shaper. I had a love hate relationship with that thing from the first time I turned it on! I loved having a shaper, but I hated THAT shaper and had the same idea as you of finding a high place to throw it out of! I think I kept that machine less than a year before I started upgrading and was so glad to see it go:D

I've never used a machine with a foot powered spindle lock, but it just does't seem like the smartest location to me. The great thing about a foot brake is you can hit it without taking your eyes of the work to look for it. Trying to remember which one is the brake and which one the lock when your maybe just getting familiar with the machine, just seems like something bad waiting to happen:eek:

JeffD


The foot spindle lock is not a bad set up, its not hanging out in the breeze where you might accidentally engage it. And to the best of my experience on machines with both spindle lock and manual brake they are both different colors (the brake is usually red) and they are labeled with big molded letters. But clearly there is room for error because we have replaced two such spindle locks, and there is no other mechanism for removing the nut, so wrecking it renders the machine useless. What system do the older Martins use for changing the nut? One thing I will say is I vastly prefer some mechanical spindle lock to the old two wrench knuckle busting Powermatic approach. My minimax has a lever and cable arrangement that engages a pin, but its inside the cabinet, its hooked to a micro switch that prohibits the shaper from starting unless its off, and you really have to close the cabinet door to set the spindle height, which requires you to disengage the pin….much better system generally, do wish they had made it a bit easier to reach.

I don't want to be misunderstood as being against delta HD shapers, they have their niche, are generally well designed within their capacity IMO, and are a very cost effective power to price ration for a small shop. I just out grew mine quickly, I like bigger cutters than it could handle, I was never able to find a 1" solid spindle, but that would not have mattered much because they still have small bearings and a light weight shallow quill relative to the place I wanted to be. The amount of chatter was for me unacceptable, perhaps mine needed bearings? But it had few hours on it when I got it, still had cosmoline on the table. As a cope machine, might be ideal.

I don't doubt anyone seeing a used shaper with a wrecked spindle. Guys do all kinds of bad things to machines. Ever heard that weird noise when somebody thought the cutter stack was tight and started the machine only to discover it was not? This is particularly a problem on solid spindle machines with where the nut is only threaded at the top, don't stack enough spacers or forget a shim between bearing and cutter stack……cutter free spins and welds it self a bit to the spindle, then breaks free on wind down. Does wonders to a spindle. I'm pretty sure SCM doesn't machine them that way, the spindle on my little minimax is so true and tight its hard to slip the cutters on if you don't go dead straight, but when you do they just slide down with a pleasing swoosh. And low and behold no chatter either?

[Mel Fulks]

After using machines for years with a loose pin that was just picked up and put in easy to see place , the cable deal just strikes me as Rube Goldburg complication . And broken ,it's a nightmare. I do like having a brake. Has any body seen the table ring problem I described earlier?

[Joe Calhoon]

I don't agree the old tenon machines are impractical except for dedicated use . They weren't made for dedicated use. With the Greenlee we might tenon one door on saw with dados,but for as many as three doors we would always use the single end tenoner. Marking the adjustments and keeping them lubed,they are practical .When, the tenoners were used for production stock they usually had one operator but ,yes ,that's pretty much gone.

Hi Mel,
I have no experience with old US and UK style tenoners and get asked about these machines a lot from shops attending our window seminars. I have watched the Utube video from Warwickshire College. Based on what I see there I would have a hard time recommending this type for a pro shop. Can you tell me the time involved for changing from say a coped door profile to a totally different coped window or door profile. I realize that square edge tenons and offset square edge tenons are fairly easy to do and set on these machines but in real world door and window building a shop must be able to offer several profiles.
Joe

[Joe Calhoon]

Looks like Joe's set up handles the double tenon with ease. Can the wadkin handle those, or are you limited to the one large traditional tenon? Large being relative to stock thickness. I could probably spin a 19" cutter head with the hood off on the shaper, but wouldn't want to be in the room for that. My biggest head is just under 8" and makes a tenon just under 3". I would argue that I could come pretty close to tieing if not beating that guys set up time even with cutter change starting from zero. But for a shop that does a lot of large tenons I can't imagine beating the Wadkin.

Hi Peter,
We regularly spin the 320mm diameter disks on shapers and occasionally larger saw blades. The newer tooling is well balanced and those heads can run at 4500 RPM if you want. I find the noise annoying at that speed so we run about 35 - 3800. You just have to feed slower. We found these heads run on the Felder shaper real well also. I think any medium and heavy duty Euro shapers could handle these cutters provided you have the right guarding, clamps and a sliding table. You would not want to try this with a sled. The one picture shows a 250mm tenon head that fits in the hood using the overhead guard. Rod's guard with the tenon hood would for sure be a safer setup with the side guards. We have these side guards for the Martin. I think the overhead guard is fine for smaller diameter cutter. The other photo shows coping a short angle piece with a 320mm coping head. Air clamps make using these large disks on shapers a lot safer. The cam type clamps have to be adjusted just right to avoid over or under pressure.

Joe276022
s.276019

276017

[Mel Fulks]

Joe, with the cope heads changed to the corg type it's pretty quick. If it's a custom match ,you first have a little time in checking to see if there are existing knives, and compared to just picking up the stock ones and their samples that is slow and then even slower if you have to grind or order. Some of the older belt driven machines have wear and slop in adjustments,but the Greenlee is an exceptionally nice modern piece. Most of the machines have a nice feature that most are not aware of or just won't use ; they are made with one full turn being a useful increment like a sixteenth or eight . So you can count turns to get close and partial turns for final adj, So much easier to get close without craning your neck while turning the handles. Making sure every piece of wood has a face mark on it avoids carelessly flipping and making a piece wrong or getting a faulty read on what needs adjustment. Of course ,one needs to have a mortised stile sample made before starting with the tenon machine. I've noticed some work mates are contemptuous of crib notes saved from last job and sharpie mark arrows and labels on the different adjustments.... but when they don't use them you will hear some cussing. The old two knife M2 or T1 shear cut heads ,cut fast and stay sharp a long time but without special equipment they can take a while to remove ,grind ,and readjust. I don't know of any places that still have the old grind on head stuff,I understand some use knife grinding machines made for moulders by some special adaptation. While tenoners were not made for just for one job ,they were made for one careful ,methodical employee. Any one who can't abide being in one spot and being patient and careful should not buy or use a tenon machine.They are for guys who are capable of forming good habits. When I've worked places that mainly had one guy doing that work they would easily set up tenoner,mortiser and sticker in an hour.

[Mel Fulks]

Moderator, seeing the title of this thread ,may I suggest changing it to something like : shaper Or tenoner ? Sorry, I didn't realize we are about to land in Cuba .

[jack forsberg]

Joe what do one of the drop on head cost. By a pro shop do you mean the ones that can't set knifes that require more then a screw driver. If all your talking about is speed just wondering how much the tooling costs. A really good Wadkin Tenioner is about $4000 all tooled and they come with drop in cope profiles. you can fit them with insert tolling too for the pros:rolleyes:. its not one or other you still use the spindle molders for window joints. tooling one a wadkin is not that costly and if you know how are way more versatile than some tooling designed too build in a given style. I grind my own knifes so i know what a profile is worth.

you may find it out dated but old tolling in the right hands cuts clean. this cut here is with blot on square knifes.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/wadkintrenchinghead001_zpsf3ceb9e7.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/wadkintrenchinghead001_zpsf3ceb9e7.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/wadkinhead002_zps981368c3.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/wadkinhead002_zps981368c3.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/wadkin/wadkinhead004_zps8cb829c2.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/wadkin/wadkinhead004_zps8cb829c2.jpg.html)

[Joe Calhoon]

Joe, with the cope heads changed to the corg type it's pretty quick. If it's a custom match ,you first have a little time in checking to see if there are existing knives, and compared to just picking up the stock ones and their samples that is slow and then even slower if you have to grind or order. Some of the older belt driven machines have wear and slop in adjustments,but the Greenlee is an exceptionally nice modern piece. Most of the machines have a nice feature that most are not aware of or just won't use ; they are made with one full turn being a useful increment like a sixteenth or eight . So you can count turns to get close and partial turns for final adj, So much easier to get close without craning your neck while turning the handles. Making sure every piece of wood has a face mark on it avoids carelessly flipping and making a piece wrong or getting a faulty read on what needs adjustment. Of course ,one needs to have a mortised stile sample made before starting with the tenon machine. I've noticed some work mates are contemptuous of crib notes saved from last job and sharpie mark arrows and labels on the different adjustments.... but when they don't use them you will hear some cussing. The old two knife M2 or T1 shear cut heads ,cut fast and stay sharp a long time but without special equipment they can take a while to remove ,grind ,and readjust. I don't know of any places that still have the old grind on head stuff,I understand some use knife grinding machines made for moulders by some special adaptation. While tenoners were not made for just for one job ,they were made for one careful ,methodical employee. Any one who can't abide being in one spot and being patient and careful should not buy or use a tenon machine.They are for guys who are capable of forming good habits. When I've worked places that mainly had one guy doing that work they would easily set up tenoner,mortiser and sticker in an hour.

Thanks Mel,
This is useful information and answers a lot of questions about these machines. One thing that has not changed with the advances in woodworking technology is setup skills. With CNC machinery, while quick it is still better to have one or two people doing the programing and actual tool setups. Once setup anyone can run the machine, same as old. Different skill set but still a skill. Another issue is the person doing the setup needs to focus. Interruptions can reap havoc.

Horizontal heads are still available on the newer Euro tenoners. When I ordered mine I asked Colombo about this. They told me unless I needed very long tenons or did a lot of square edge tenons they are not needed. They said a lot of UK joiners order them this way because most of their door & window joinery is fairly thin stock with single tenon. Most of these use insert carbide with a lot of scribe spurs for the horizontals.

Here is a video of our Colombo tenoner in action. I apologize for the poor quality of the clip. I tried to do it myself while operating the machine.
Joe

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D7NuQ4yy7B0

[Mel Fulks]

Joe,I'm complimented you find it useful. You make a good point about set up skills , and I also think computers have changed the patience level of many .In some cases the ease of computor use seems to make some sloppier . If two steps are required they want to use just one. In the early days following the Costa Concordia ship disaster it was said that the captain had made that turn so many times he did not fully use the auto navigation control. Apparently too much trouble.I have commented here before about the ease with which auto cad can make a horrible design work. I've seen it encourage some to slack off looking for good solutions.

[Joe Calhoon]

276058
Joe what do one of the drop on head cost. By a pro shop do you mean the ones that can't set knifes that require more then a screw driver. If all your talking about is speed just wondering how much the tooling costs. A really good Wadkin Tenioner is about $4000 all tooled and they come with drop in cope profiles. you can fit them with insert tolling too for the pros:rolleyes:. its not one or other you still use the spindle molders for window joints. tooling one a wadkin is not that costly and if you know how are way more versatile than some tooling designed too build in a given style. I grind my own knifes so i know what a profile is worth.

you may find it out dated but old tolling in the right hands cuts clean. this cut here is with blot on square knifes.







Hi Jack,
I will attempt to answer your questions.

By drop on I think you are talking about the insert tools mounted on a sleeve. They can run from $1200 to $2500 each. We also use stacked individual cutters with adjustable groovers to achieve different thickness and profile for doors. They cost about the same per stack but have more versatility. We also use insert joinery tools -rebate blocks and adjustable groovers. These are our most used tools. Expensive stuff, you need a steady stream of good work coming in and the right machines to justify this type tooling. Early on we did some of our own grinds but don’t think that is a marketable skill. Especially for the type work we do. Modern insert tooling offers a lot of versatility of thickness and edge profiles.

I define a pro shop as one doing woodwork to make a profit for the owner and a living for his employees. I don’t know about the screwdriver part but a lot of skills are needed to achieve this. If you achieve this with old iron or working with only hand tools that is great! We also give shaper classes to hobby people with home shops. I am amazed at the quality work they produce and also the quality of their shops. Their needs are usually focused on proper use of the tools, safety, precision and best use of their limited time. If I ever am lucky enough to have a home shop I would like to fill it with 60s and 70s vintage German machines. Maybe even a Wadkin.

I have been at this since 1976 starting with some lightweight marginal machines. (Home shops and startups now have a lot better choices for new small machines)
Along the way we had a lot of heavy old US iron, some new US iron and late model used Euro machines. The used Euro stuff worked out the best. I also know the cost of rebuilding old iron and that does not always work out. The used Euro machines worked out better than anything and that would be the track I would take if starting over. I have been there and done that with the old iron.

When I retooled to what we now have my goal was not so much speed but to produce as much quality product as possible with a small 2 or 3 man crew. I enjoy the work and did not want to be managing a large workforce. The goal was repeatability, precision, consistency, high quality of machining and most of all not working the 60-hour weeks.

Your pictures take me back to the early days when we were cutting dados with a 16” Dewalt.

Joe276059276060276061

[jack forsberg]

thanks Joe for the reply.

i am just a 2 man shop doing my designs and could not afford tooling like that. A very hard business to be in i am sure.

peace out

[Jeff Duncan]

The foot spindle lock is not a bad set up, its not hanging out in the breeze where you might accidentally engage it. And to the best of my experience on machines with both spindle lock and manual brake they are both different colors (the brake is usually red) and they are labeled with big molded letters. But clearly there is room for error because we have replaced two such spindle locks, and there is no other mechanism for removing the nut, so wrecking it renders the machine useless. What system do the older Martins use for changing the nut? One thing I will say is I vastly prefer some mechanical spindle lock to the old two wrench knuckle busting Powermatic approach.


Peter, the Martin uses a mechanical spindle lock located on the front of the machine. It's a simple push/pull knob that works well. The older SCM machines also used a mechanical lock that was a bit more complicated. Well at least the older T-160, of course it's a tilting which makes everything a bit more complicated, but it was also located on the front of the machine and was a 1/4 turn to engage system. Martin has the foot brake on the front corners of the machine so you can get to it from both sides and do so without having to look for it. The SCM actually does not have a working foot brake. The stop button is labeled as a brake but if it is electronic it's not working currently. I have some re-wiring to do before putting her into service though, so will have to figure it out then;)

I've also had the unfortunate experience of spinning a head on a spindle:o Not sure how as I'm usually pretty careful about tightening, but I was running a small stack of parts and about halfway through heard something funny happen, nothing drastic, just a subtle speed change. I powered down looked everything over and couldn't find anything wrong. Then I tried pulling the 2" corrugated head off only to find it welded to the spindle:( So now I'm even more cautious when tightening cutters down;)

JeffD

[Jeff Duncan]

After using machines for years with a loose pin that was just picked up and put in easy to see place , the cable deal just strikes me as Rube Goldburg complication . And broken ,it's a nightmare. I do like having a brake. Has any body seen the table ring problem I described earlier?

Mel, I haven't ever seen that on a shaper, though I haven't used all that many shapers either;) On the older Martins and SCM shapers the largest table ring was what the fence was mounted to. This way you could rotate it 90 degrees for use with sliding tables and tenoning hoods and such. Since they had to rotate the machining is pretty tight on these shapers. Now smaller shapers like the Delta and Powermatics have small adjustable table rings IIRC. Though somehow I don't think that's what your referring to?

JeffD

[Peter Quinn]

…And then there's this type of machine, which makes most of the approaches we've discussed so far look fairly caveman in comparison. I can't imagine competing with this type of machine over the long haul as a professional. Sure its expensive, but so are employees, and this thing replaces a lot of them. Yet still there remains a hunt and peck beaver tooth approach niche in the market place..thats firmly where the firm I'm with resides. Videos like this make me smile and cry simultaneously. Better sell my layout tools and get off to CNC school quickly!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV1Xz40Hw1o

[Joe Calhoon]

[QUOTE=Peter Quinn;2187605]…And then there's this type of machine, which makes most of the approaches we've discussed so far look fairly caveman in comparison. I can't imagine competing with this type of machine over the long haul as a professional. Sure its expensive, but so are employees, and this thing replaces a lot of them. Yet still there remains a hunt and peck beaver tooth approach niche in the market place..thats firmly where the firm I'm with resides. Videos like this make me smile and cry simultaneously. Better sell my layout tools and get off to CNC school quickly!
QUOTE]



Peter, At least your firm is still in business. A lot of shops that bought into the high tech are gone. Not using the technology correctly and up to their neck in debt going into the slowdown killed a lot of shops.

Believe it or not the big Windor machines and Weinig Unicontrols are considered older technology in Europe now. When I visited Florian Englefried last year (the firm that produced your video) he said shops in Germany are looking for more flexible machines that can produce small batches of different types of doors and windows vs. cranking out 50 or 60 windows a day on machines like the Windor. The angle units are still used a lot though. We were in a 10-man shop this year that did historic windows updated for energy efficiency. He had an older window machine, a lot of simple tenoners – shapers and had just installed a small CNC router to do passive house windows. Plus a few pieces of old iron. He said “There is Ligna, but this is reality”.

I’ve toured a lot of small and medium size door and window shops in continental Europe. I have not been in one that did not at least have a small window machine

Joe

[J.R. Rutter]

I just wanted to clarify: Those who have found uneven spindles on SCM shapers, we are talking about used machines, right? I have gone though a number of these, and have seen spindles that had cutters spun and then "repaired" with a file or something similar. It could be that these spindles were not hardened to high levels in anticipation of such abuse? But the new spindles that I have removed the grease from have been flawless.

[Peter Quinn]

[QUOTE=Peter Quinn;2187605]…And then there's this type of machine, which makes most of the approaches we've discussed so far look fairly caveman in comparison. I can't imagine competing with this type of machine over the long haul as a professional. Sure its expensive, but so are employees, and this thing replaces a lot of them. Yet still there remains a hunt and peck beaver tooth approach niche in the market place..thats firmly where the firm I'm with resides. Videos like this make me smile and cry simultaneously. Better sell my layout tools and get off to CNC school quickly!
QUOTE]



Peter, At least your firm is still in business. A lot of shops that bought into the high tech are gone. Not using the technology correctly and up to their neck in debt going into the slowdown killed a lot of shops.

Believe it or not the big Windor machines and Weinig Unicontrols are considered older technology in Europe now. When I visited Florian Englefried last year (the firm that produced your video) he said shops in Germany are looking for more flexible machines that can produce small batches of different types of doors and windows vs. cranking out 50 or 60 windows a day on machines like the Windor. The angle units are still used a lot though. We were in a 10-man shop this year that did historic windows updated for energy efficiency. He had an older window machine, a lot of simple tenoners – shapers and had just installed a small CNC router to do passive house windows. Plus a few pieces of old iron. He said “There is Ligna, but this is reality”.

I’ve toured a lot of small and medium size door and window shops in continental Europe. I have not been in one that did not at least have a small window machine

Joe


That is very encouraging news Joe. Well....not for the guys that went out of business. I know of a few "grew too fast" shops in my area that are gone or on their knees. Good too see there is still room for small and flexible.

[Mel Fulks]

J.R. Makes a valid point about the spindles but the one that was really bad was too big in spots ,especially at the bottom .Previous users had always used it with a large spacer under the tooling . I never use spacers that are not required for normal legitimate purpose. There were no burrs on it ,the bottom was just bigger. Even making sure it was corrosion free and oiled some tooling was still slightly tight.

[Mel Fulks]

The video is interesting ,Peter. But at least thirty years ago I worked for a company that had just bought a used double end tenon machine with automatic feed. It didn't have that cartoon like spin the wood around feature, so it had to have two sets of knives, but it could do a lot of work with a lot less real estate. CNC is great ,but when bought by someone who's motivation is "with this anybody can do the job", it often fails. We had a local company that put 20 million into running a high tech cabinet shop and recently went bankrupt. They had long punch lists on every job. The guy who ran it had literally gone around to a number of shops telling them to close up before he ran them out of business !

[Peter Quinn]

The video is interesting ,Peter. But at least thirty years ago I worked for a company that had just bought a used double end tenon machine with automatic feed. It didn't have that cartoon like spin the wood around feature, so it had to have two sets of knives, but it could do a lot of work with a lot less real estate. CNC is great ,but when bought by someone who's motivation is "with this anybody can do the job", it often fails. We had a local company that put 20 million into running a high tech cabinet shop and recently went bankrupt. They had long punch lists on every job. The guy who ran it had literally gone around to a number of shops telling them to close up before he ran them out of business !

Its encouraging to think that David still stands a chance. I can't imagine a shop owner turning over a large expensive machine to an unqualified operator, though I'm sure it happens. I know of plenty of places in the machine tool world that have replaced highly skilled machinists with less highly skilled operators and a few good machine programmers, and the formula increases both profits and quality if done right. I've also heard from a few local small to medium cabinet shops that added cNC machines just before or during the recession and felt they would have sunk without them, claim being a right sized CnC platform allowed them to be more versatile, offer shorter lead times, fit in jobs they would have passed on years past or accomplish sub work to keep the note paid. I don't know anyone with a behomoth like in that vid I posted, just not the right scale for the small custom shops near me, too specialized, too expensive?

[Andy Giddings]

Hi Rod, dug this thread up from a while back as its the first one I've seen using the Hammer tenon attachment.

I've got a C3-31 on order with the Comfort package and have ordered the same tenon attachment. The C3-31 package comes with the 1300mm cross cut fence to be used with the outrigger, but no 900mm cross cut fence. In your photos, when you mount the fence to the tenon table, it would seem its the only mounting point for the fence (ie the fence doesn't get fixed directly to the slider). Are you using the 1300 fence in this photo or the shorter one?

Thanks, Andy

[Rod Sheridan]

Hi Andy, I believe that's the shorter fence.............Regards, Rod.

[Andy Giddings]

Thanks Rod. Am a little concerned about the setup with the longer fence as its going to exert considerable leverage on the slider unless I can figure out how to use the outrigger and tenon attachment at the same time

[Warren Lake]

once again this isnt working for me if I log on the thread is 2 pages long if I dont log on its five pages long. Will have to contact the internet wizards. In the meantime after reading the five page thread and not this two page one that i am posting on.

Who has used the Schmidt coping discs with currugated up to 3/8" thick. The heads are available in 7, 8 and 9" sizes with the 8" doing approx 3' tennon. Ive asked a few questions and got a few answers and would like to know more. dont know anyone up here using them would be nice to see what they can do. Both straight tennons or cope and stick with a full tennon. Know there are no outside knickers. Told they run around 4,000 or bit more but 4,000 Approx. I can see reducing speed like Joe said and lowering feed rate, ive done it for other reasons and stuff cuts just as well, say when you have larger than recommended cutter overhang on a head.

IF anyone knows of a you tube of these heads in action id like to see it, or anyone is in the Toronto area more or less would like to see them in person

thanks, w

[peter gagliardi]

Warren, I have 1 of these that I bought for a 1 off type job needing a deep cope on one side of a project. It actually worked just fine. If you cope before sticking which is how I was taught, there is no real need for nickers. Just a backup board.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Rod. Am a little concerned about the setup with the longer fence as its going to exert considerable leverage on the slider unless I can figure out how to use the outrigger and tenon attachment at the same time

Andy, the slider is built to take the forces involved.

Don't worry about it.................Rod.