Bubbles in Waterlox Original

[Pat Barry]

Hi everyone, I need help. I have applied Waterlox original, 4 coats now and there are bubbles in the finish. I used a high quality natural bristle brush and I applied the material liberally for each of the coats. So, whats the best bet to fix the mistakes I have made? Should I sand the finish lightly with 320 and then reapply the Waterlox using a wipe on approach? Note - this is a large dining room table top. It looks very pretty if it weren't for the bubbles. Now I'm wishing I had used Minwax poly because I have never had this happen with that finish before.

[Daniel Smith]

I'm curious about what answers you'll receive to this question. I've only used Waterlox twice, so I'm no expert, but I've wet sanded with 400 after wiping on a light coat to smooth the finish.

[Scott Holmes]

A few questions to get more info... What is a quality brush to you? A quality 2" varnish brush will cost about $45. Big box stores don't have top quality varnish brushes; they sell paint brushes. What type of wood is the table? What steps did you take before the Waterlox? Sanding? staining? etc. Did you slightly thin the Waterlox before you applied it? Many varnishes are being shipped a bit thicker to lower the VOC's, thus they need to be thinned. Where the air bubbles caused by the brushing action? Too fast, too much varnish (thickness of film) and/or too varnish can all cause bubbles. Temperature of table and finish when applied? This should be a relatively easy fix.

[Pat Barry]

A few questions to get more info... What is a quality brush to you? A quality 2" varnish brush will cost about $45. Big box stores don't have top quality varnish brushes; they sell paint brushes. What type of wood is the table? What steps did you take before the Waterlox? Sanding? staining? etc. Did you slightly thin the Waterlox before you applied it? Many varnishes are being shipped a bit thicker to lower the VOC's, thus they need to be thinned. Where the air bubbles caused by the brushing action? Too fast, too much varnish (thickness of film) and/or too varnish can all cause bubbles. Temperature of table and finish when applied? This should be a relatively easy fix.
Good questions Scott.
The brush was a Badger 2 inch natural bristle brush (looks like the one in your video). Cost was about $28 at Rockler, purchased about 1 week ago
The table top is cherry veneer over some type of core I am unsure of. The veneer is fairly thick.

I had stripped the original factory finish using laquer thinner and scraping process. Followed this with sanding using ROS at 220 grit. I cleaned up the surface after sanding by brushing off and then wiping with clean damp rag.

I then used Transtint Dark Mission Cherry dye mixed with water to get the color I was looking for. I then rag wiped the dye lightly after it had dried to clean the surface, followed by wipe down with clean rag and mineral spirits. This dried for a couple days.

After that dried I applied the Waterlox liberally with the brush. The first coat dried and 24 hours later reapplied. The first coat looked fine, just a matte finish though as the first coat only seemed to penetrate, not form a finish. I followed this with subsequent coats using a quick surface wipedown with mineral spirts followed by the brush on coat. I tied not to overbrush the surface because I noticed the brushing was generating bubbles. So I tried to just drag the brush tip across the bubbles and remove them while the finish was still very wet.
I repeated this 3 times, one day, 24 hrs between coats.

I think the temp was a bit on the cool side, 50 to 60 degrees.

I have since done some research and found video of a fellow who was saying "you can't overwork" the finish by brushing, so maybe I should just have continued working it??

What I am now pondering is whether to dry sand the surface lightly, or whether it might be better to use a bit of solvent (mineral soirits) and wet sand the surface, then wipe it dow with mineral spirity. Let that dry, then go to a wipe on approach for subsequent layers of finish

[Steve Schoene]

Which Waterlox did you use? There are three versions all called Original. The wipe on version is Sealer/Finish. There is a Gloss, and also a Satin. These two later varieties, especially the gloss, have higher solids content than the Sealer/Finish. If you got bubbles with the Sealer/Finish you have varnish that is defective, perhaps having started to gel. Otherwise I can't imagine the Sealer/Finish holding bubbles even if applied with a chip brush. If it has thickened enough to hold bubbles then you should discard it for fresh material. Gloss could be thick enough that it could require a small amount of thinner so that any bubbles would break before the finish began to cure. (Don't use chip brushes if there aren't bubbles they still shed enough to lead to hair pulling.) Good brushes make a difference when working with full viscosity varnish. By the way, you won't buy a 2" genuine badger brush for under three figures. Most of what is seen at lower prices is dyed white hog bristle.

[Prashun Patel]

I suspect the mineral spirits. That product does not like to go on over remnants of ms.

[Pat Barry]

The brush I bought was this one http://www.rockler.com/natural-badger-style-china-bristle-brushes
The finish I am using is the Original Sealer / Finish, not the Gloss.
So, the damage is done, is there a fix?

[Prashun Patel]

Can you post a picture?

[Pat Barry]

Can you post a picture?
Having difficulty getting a picture. My good camera is MIA. My cell phone camera is low quality and I can't get it to focus up close. The macro pictures get washed out by the lights and the reflective surface.

Familiar with Don Ho? - He had tiny bubbles in the wine. - Mine are similar in size to the tiny bubbles in a sparkling wine and lots of them. The surface is heavily affected, not just one or two bubbles. I mean I got a bubble farm on my hands here.

Looking closer at Waterlox product information I see this note "Do not apply a new coat of finish over one that has not completely dried". It could be that 24 hours was not enough time to completely dry the underlying coats. Lets assume this was the case, would bubbling be the result? Is this fixable?

Barring any ideas I intend to lightly knock the surface down with 320, dry, wipe it down with Mineral Spirits and if it looks promising, try to wipe on a thin coat.

[Prashun Patel]

That is incompatibility, not brush technique. I still bet its the ms. If you can, sand it smooth with 320 or 220' then after you wipe with ms, let it dry for a couple hours before putting on the next coat. Wipe that coat on, just to remove the brush as a variable, and to waste less product if it still doesnt work.

[Pat Barry]

That is incompatibility, not brush technique. I still bet its the ms. If you can, sand it smooth with 320 or 220' then after you wipe with ms, let it dry for a couple hours before putting on the next coat. Wipe that coat on, just to remove the brush as a variable, and to waste less product if it still doesnt work.
That's exactly what I am thinking Prashun. I had watched one of Scott's video's before I started and used his techniques and felt my brushing technique itself was OK. I should have stopped and not put subsequent layers on but I was in a hurry to finish (pardon the pun). I'm hoping some solvency characteristics of the material will help when I wipe on the next layer after sanding and prep.

[Howard Acheson]

>>>> It could be that 24 hours was not enough time to completely dry the underlying coats. Lets assume this was the case, would bubbling be the result? Is this fixable

I think that is one of your issues. Waterlox is a slow drying finish and applying a new coat over a non-dried coat will lead to problem.

Second you mention you applied heavy coats. That's not good with Waterlox. The thick coats take much longer to dry and, in some cases, will not dry at all. Apply thin coats.

Finally, are you thinning the Waterlox?

[Pat Barry]

Howie,

No I did not thin it. I guess I misinterpreted the directions from Waterlox to apply at 500 sf / gal. Thats 125 ft / qt and thats about 1/4 quart per my table top so thats what I was trying to accomplish. I do think that was a lot though but thats what the directions said.

Here is from the Waterlox Woodworking FInishing Guide "COVERAGE/THINNING One gallon covers 500 square feet per coat. One quart covers 125 square feet per coat. The number of coats depends on the porosity of the wood being finished"
http://www.waterlox.com/assets/pdfs/woodworking-guide-FINAL.pdf

For what its worth the 320 grit sanding is doing a good job of leveling it out, so far. Taking it pretty slow because I don't want to sand thru the finish and screw up the dye.

[Scott Holmes]

I doubt the MS is the problem. Make sure you "condition" your brush before you use it... (see Video top sticky note of Forum.) Waterlox sealer/finish is already thinned to wipe-on consistency. No need to thin any more. 3 Coats of Sealer finish is only about one coat of regular Waterlox brushed on... Wipe-on thin varnish will still be very, very, thin even if brushed on. Pooling the varnish is way too much... brush on a thin coat and let it dry; over brushing a quicker drying wipe-on can lead to issues, although Waterlox is very forgiving. You need 5 or 6 more coats to start to see what the Waterlox can really do. Comparing Waterlox wipe -on to full bodied poly is not an apples to apples. Waterlox is much harder and more durable than any of the big box store polys.

[Pat Barry]

Time for a quick update. Dry sanding this stuff with 320 grit wet or dry sandpaper to remove the bubbles works, but it is really slow - there must be a better way. The material doesn't sand well - maybe that's a function of curing. It tends to roll up and create little nubs that have to be continually wiped away. I did manage to get thru the entire table top but want to do a better job of it to get more uniformity. I experimented with wet sanding using a splash of mineral spirits and the same 320 grit. I also tried a 3M finishing pad and I liked that better. Anyone here have any experience / comments / watch-outs with regard to wet sanding?

[Steve Schoene]

If it is rolling up when sanded its just marginally cured and using m inera l spirits as lubrication could cause problems.

You still haven't specified which Waterlox you are using. If it is the sealer/finish answers would be different compared to working with satin or gloss.

[Robert LaPlaca]

If it is rolling up when sanded its just marginally cured and using m inera l spirits as lubrication could cause problems.

You still haven't specified which Waterlox you are using. If it is the sealer/finish answers would be different compared to working with satin or gloss.

Yes I agree with Steve, I have found properly cured Waterlox OSF sands very well without Corning even sanded dry. I have successfully used 1200 grit 3m imperial dry to remove nibs prior to the last coat without any issue..

[Pat Barry]

If it is rolling up when sanded its just marginally cured and using m inera l spirits as lubrication could cause problems.

You still haven't specified which Waterlox you are using. If it is the sealer/finish answers would be different compared to working with satin or gloss.
Steve - I responded on 11/23 that I was using the original sealer / finish. Not the gloss material

[Pat Barry]

Yes I agree with Steve, I have found properly cured Waterlox OSF sands very well without Corning even sanded dry. I have successfully used 1200 grit 3m imperial dry to remove nibs prior to the last coat without any issue..
Then the issue is its just not warm enough in the shop for this to dry properly. I will tent it and heat the tent

[Steve Schoene]

Opps. My bad. That leads me to reiterate that it must be bad in some way. Waterlox has a quite short shelf life if there is any air to kick off a cure. Fresh sealer/finished shouldnt be viscous enough to hold bubbles. Have you tried wiping it on. Blue paper shop towels work well. This allows very thin coats by applying it about as heavily waitresses wipe down tables between customers.

[Prashun Patel]

Are you using the original formula osf or the voc compliant formulation? Is their any gel in your can? How fresh is it?

[Pat Barry]

Are you using the original formula osf or the voc compliant formulation? Is their any gel in your can? How fresh is it?
This is a brand new can. No, there is no gel in the can. I don't know - it says Original on the label. Also Premium Wood Finish, Since 1910, Original Formula, blah, blah, blah. Hand made from tung oil. Top ingredient is Mineral Spirits. It says to apply at rate of 125 sq ft per quart - thats a lot - it would be like a shallow lake to put it on that heavy, which I did not do. I did approx 1/4 that amount and it was still a lot.

So, can I wet sand it with mineral spirits and 320 grit or should I stick with dry sanding? Maybe a scotchbrite pad and mineral spirits? Maybe its too far along in the cure process for the mineral spirits to do anything??

[Pat Barry]

Opps. My bad. That leads me to reiterate that it must be bad in some way. Waterlox has a quite short shelf life if there is any air to kick off a cure. Fresh sealer/finished shouldnt be viscous enough to hold bubbles. Have you tried wiping it on. Blue paper shop towels work well. This allows very thin coats by applying it about as heavily waitresses wipe down tables between customers.
I plan to proceed with a wipe on application as soon as I get the surface sanded back to a state where I am satisfied the surface is as smooth as I can get with 320 grit. I haven't gotten there just yet, hence my questions about sanding. I really think the issue was the directions on the label are very misleading in terms of application volume per unit area and consequently I needed to let it dry way longer than the mfr recommendation of 24 hours before recoating.

OPINION -- I can see this finish material has a lot of fans on this site. I don't happen to be one of them at this time based on this experience. Maybe I will be a convert when I'm done. I think the label directions should be clarified though because they are very misleading. I bet all the experienced folks here don't bother reading the label at all. You have all learned the nuances of this stuff and I haven't yet.

[John TenEyck]

For all that pain you are going through trying to sand it off, why not just strip it? You would have been done in 45 minutes and ready to start fresh. It's not to late to do just that.

John

[Prashun Patel]

there are two versions of the Original Sealer Finish. the VOC compliant version costs about $35/qt. The "original" original is $29/qt. The voc version has fewer fans than the original.

[Alan Lightstone]

there are two versions of the Original Sealer Finish. the VOC compliant version costs about $35/qt. The "original" original is $29/qt. The voc version has fewer fans than the original.
True dat, Prashun. Like the OSF, hate the low VOC version.

I've never found that Waterlox OSF needed more than 24 hours between coats. I do live in the South, though, so it's always hot down here for it to dry quickly.

[Pat Barry]

Here is the exact stuff I bought from Rockler
275844

[Sam Murdoch]

Pat, I may be repeating or contradicting other opinions but here is my 2¢ having used this very finish often on jobs large and small - vertical and horizontal.

An edited quote from a recent thread I posted -

I brush it on liberally and allow 24 hours to dry between coats and 48 hours if I choose to lightly sand between coats. Others here on the Creek are very happy applying Waterlox as thin wipe on coats.

I know that Waterlox says no need to sand between coats but I just do. I vacuum and tack cloth and recoat each time. Each coat gets more full and smooth. The last coat I find is best applied with a wide foam brush - across grain and then feathered out with the grain in long (full length strokes if possible) with the grain. Others might dispute this technique but it works well for me.


In your case Pat, I think you might be having issues with wiping the surface with MS before applying the Waterlox AND that you are sanding between coats too soon. If you are in a very well heated room 68° + with lots of air movement that could be part of the problem too. Just not enough time to flow out. You can turn the heat up after 4 or 5 hours but not while you are applying the finish. As you read above, I am a brush on Waterlox guy. I use the same cross grain brush on / long grain feathering off - with a very good bristle brush or with a foam brush. Some will say that you can't compare a good bristle brush to a foam brush but in the case of varnish products I have learned to make a foam brush do the job nicely. I prefer the bristle brush for the first coats because it can push more material as I like to put it on liberally. The foam brush on the last coat works well because I get less drag as the finish has developed and the surface has become smooth.

Sanding between coats in the first few times is with 180 grit to 220 - after more than 24 hours. If it is not powdery it is not ready for sanding. I make certain that I remove all the dust off the surface and off myself before starting the next coat. Then I walk away like a ninja - no rustling of the rice paper under my feet. As i get to the final coats I use 320 or a bit finer but have never used wet/dry. I guess I'm always looking to achieve a working finish and not a grand piano finish. Never had any complaints and I'm more fussy than any of my clients. Light sanding with the grain by hand especially for the last 2 of 5 or 6 coats. I use Abranet Mesh with my Festool 150 ETS/3 for horizontal surfaces for the light sanding of the earlier coats.

All of this becomes more problematic with vertical surfaces - if you are Waterloxing a cabinet for example. I then become a wipe on guy. With the same prep work between coats but lots more coats and less drying time.

Having said all that - I have made some messes as I learned the product that have required sanding down to nearly bare wood. Overheating the work space and dust seemed to be the major contributors to bad results. I think I've got it down now. Hope you can win too. Good luck.

[Pat Barry]

Thanks for all the feedback folks. I have now completed 2 coats of wipe on Waterlox after several hours spent sanding the bubbles out using 320 grit. I like how the finish is starting to shape up. What I'm doing now is wiping on, letting it cure for 3 days, then very lightly sanding any nubs / imperfections with the 320 grit (dry), then cleaning the dust carefully and as thoroughly as possible, followed by wiping on another coat using the waitress technique. I am also working on my ninja routine as best I can after wiping the finish on so as not to stir up dust. I think another 3 or 4 coats and i will have a finish that I was hoping for.

Once I get the top where I want it I will spend some time on the aprons and the legs. Both of these already look pretty good, just some nubs to knockdown.

I hope to post pictures once I get it completed and installed - probably 2 weeks away.

[Prashun Patel]

Congrats. Can't wait to see it. If it's working for you, then don't alter it. I will, however, suggest that sanding every coat of a wipe-on might be overkill or counterproductive for some. Also, I often finish under dusty conditions, and it just doesn't make a difference with a good wiping varnish (be it poly or waterlox or spar). I still think like some others that there may be an issue with your finish if it's taking that long to be sandable.

I would hate to see you get to a film that is looks great initially, but doesn't cure hard.

In the future, if you ever buy waterlox osf again, take great pains to insure that it's the ORIGINAL original formula, not the VOC Compliant one.

The original is TB5284 and is usually in an orange/cream quart container.
The voC version is TB6038 and is usually in a red/white or red/yellow container.

I have found that some proprietors (including the tech rep I spoke with at Woodcraft) aren't aware of the diff. So what you see on the website is not necessarily what is actually shipped.

FWIW, I've switched to ArmRSeal. It's lighter and it's a poly, but I'm a fan. And unlike P&L38, Behlen's TT, and Waterlox, there's no question about what you're getting