Joining edge grain and end grain countertops.

[fred lifton]

I would like to construct a large island counter out of both end-grain (maple) and edge-grain (madrone) butcher block (1.5" thick). One supplier has told me that there will be issues with the joint between the two types of grain and that wood movement will cause cracks along the joint.

I can see how the different orientations of the wood fibers (basically, vertical and horizontal) would cause movement in different directions, but if each end-grain "cube" is joined with glue and a pocket screw or two, wouldn't that be enough to reduce the movement.

Looking forward to any and all thoughts on this matter.

cheers,
Fred

[Chris Friesen]

You should be able to glue and end-grain section to the end of an edge-grain section without any issues, assuming same species of wood. Gluing a large end-grain section to the side of an edge-grain section likely won't work (basically a big cross-grain joint)

As for joining maple to madrone, you'll need to look up the relative expansion values to see whether it's likely to crack.

Lastly, I wouldn't want a large piece of unsupported 1.5" thick end-grain. It's really not very strong.

[Peter Quinn]

Thoughts? If the end grain is glued to the edge of an edge grain run, it will fail, probably quickly, no glue or screws are going to limit wood movement. If its at the end it's just a change in direction, not grain orientation, so no issue. Is there an echo in here....no, I just repeated what Chris said above. We turn corners all the time on wooden l's, but we use counter top bolts to make the connection, these allow things to move like tectonic plates but keep the joints tight, we usually do a jack miter at the leading edge, maybe a spot of glue there but nowhere else, back splash covers the visable end of the movement. Your conditions are different for an island. So my thoughts....make a nice island top....make a nice end grain block....keep them separated. Place the butcher block on top of the island, or create a niche with expansion gap for it to ride in if you want consistent elevations. I'd love to see a sketch of your proposed grain orientation for clarity.

[fred lifton]

Many thanks for the responses. Attached is a crude diagram showing what I'm hoping to build. There seems to be a consensus that just straight joining these, regardless of method, will fail. Now I'm wondering if there's a way to do it by sandwiching a thin strip of stainless or aluminum between the two, silicon it in and then join the counters with countertop bolts (zip bolts or whatever).

Thanks for your expertise. I've done plenty of finish carpentry and cabinetry, but I've never installed countertops before.


275505

[Jerry Miner]

I would tread very carefully here. Seven feet of end-grain maple could move over 1/2" from season to season. If you use some sort of countertop bolt, I would make long slots for them.

I don't see the value of a strip of metal between the wood parts---would make it difficult to re-surface down the road.

This project would be better, IMHO, as two separate tops, rather than trying to make one integral unit out of two materials.

[Dave Richards]

So by looking at your drawing, you ar gluing end grain to face grain, you are gluing face grain to face grain but the piece will be oriented at 90° to each other. It looks like a project destined to fail. As has been said, you'll have a lot of seasonal movement and you won't be able to control it even with glue and screws. Perhaps you could come up with a design in which the two sections aren't attached to each other.

[John TenEyck]

You could connect the two pieces with an unglued, hidden spline or sliding dovetail and one or two zip bolts (or whatever those countertop bolts are called) near the center, no more than 12" apart. The end grain section will grow/shrink with the seasons, the edge grain won't, but they'll both be happy as long as you don't glue them together.

John

[fred lifton]

John's method above is what a cabinet maker friend of mine basically recommended: Doubled-up #20 biscuits (unglued) and a couple of zip bolts. When I install, I'll clamp the two pieces together and then attach to the cab tops in the usual way (oversize holes and fender washers). We'll see if a gap opens up that is big enough to be a problem with trapping food. An aluminum T-bar in the gap might also be a possibility. Worst case scenario I have to uninstall the end-grain and joint and glue up more madrone. I could re-use the end-grain to make cutting boards.

If you're wondering why the design, wife is a professional chef and this (hopefully) is a neater, cleaner alternative to having 3-4 cutting boards always sitting on the counter-tops. This way she'll have a long, easy-to-access cutting board right across from the stove-top.

Thanks again to all for their feedback and ideas.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The zip bolts is the straightforward answer.

The over-the-top joinery solution would be to treat the madrone as a breadboard end, and construct the joint that way - mortise and tenon along the entire joint, with teh exception of the last inch or so - a stopped mortise.

Elongated holes in the tenons, and drawbored pins, exposed on the top. Serious wow factor, for anyone who knows what they are looking at when they see it.

7' is a long face for a breadboard end, but the principles don't change. I did breadboard ends on a dining table that was 50" wide - not really a big deal, but it did take a bit of time.

[Mel Fulks]

Looks to me like a little offset would help the design. One side maybe quarter inch or more higher . A fillet strip (pattern making type ?) could make it look neater.

[jack forsberg]

i have done this it not that big of a deal if you let it float. i use SS all thread with and mortise on the bottom side of cross grain to hold the nut unseen on the edge. i then plow over size dado's in the bottom of the end grain(for the all thread) to let it come and go. full length tongue and grove between the to pieces keeps the two surfaces even(no glue here). For long ones like yours i will add a crumb drawer this lets some of the movement move into that space and breaks up the length some and keeps the ends even. Have not had a failure in 25 years.

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/crows023_zpsf071d14a.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/crows023_zpsf071d14a.jpg.html)

http://i927.photobucket.com/albums/ad111/tool613/crows019_zpsc2908c24.jpg (http://s927.photobucket.com/user/tool613/media/crows019_zpsc2908c24.jpg.html)