fissures in waterstone

[Noah Wagener]

I bought some of the Sigmas that Lee Valley carries about 6 months ago and one (10,000) has developed hairline cracks throughout. I epoxied it to some cedar but that has not really helped; i still feel the cracks. It has not been dropped or submerged for longer than an hour. It was left in a garage that got down to like 40 fahrenheit. Any ideas why this happened? It did not happen to the lower grit stones.

[george wilson]

First of all,I would never epoxy a fairly soft stone to a piece of wood. Wood isn't a very stable material. If it expands with the humidity,and the stone is securely epoxied to it,it could cause the stone to crack open. Plane the wood off carefully,and epoxy it to a plate of heavy glass. Get the glass cut to fit the stone.

[David Wong]

Same type of hairline cracks happened to me with my Naniwa Snow White 8K. I continued to use it for quite a long time, and there seemed to be no ill effects. I eventually became worried that there could be cross contamination in the cracks and stopped using it. Easy for me as I have a couple of other finish stones. I read online that the Snow White is susceptible to this "crazing".

If you cannot see any problems on your blades, then it is probably still good. One day I'll get around to more closely examining my Snow White stone.

[Chris Griggs]

Same type of hairline cracks happened to me with my Naniwa Snow White 8K. I continued to use it for quite a long time, and there seemed to be no ill effects. I eventually became worried that there could be cross contamination in the cracks and stopped using it. Easy for me as I have a couple of other finish stones. I read online that the Snow White is susceptible to this "crazing".

If you cannot see any problems on your blades, then it is probably still good. One day I'll get around to more closely examining my Snow White stone.

I've read this about the chosera's and the snow whites as well, but I've experienced nothing of the sort with either my snow white or cho 800...I wonder what causes it?

Have they ever been left in the sun or near a heat vent? Maybe drying to quickly would cause it?

[David Weaver]

The chosera (that archie has now) that I had would get very superficial marking on the surface, but you couldn't even call it a crack really, it was just like a pattern.

Is this SPII really cracked as in the cracks run deep and they're unstable, or is it just stable checking?

If you do glue stones to wood (which is something I do), it's best to use the straightest QS stuff you can find in a wood that is moisture tolerant.

[Stuart Tierney]

It's a manufacturing problem, nothing you did.

If the cracks start causing problems, let LV know. If it's not causing problems, then don't worry too much about it. Chances are it won't cause any problems, but it might.

Also, get it off that piece of cedar. Next time around, use a more flexible adhesive with a wood base, something rigid like epoxy with a stable base material.

These cracks occur during the firing of the stone, I can't recall the exact reason, but it's from the kiln. Inspection catches most of them before they go out into the world, but obviously not all of them.

Stu.

[Noah Wagener]

I think they are more than superficial but i am not really experienced. As to if they are causing problems; i'm not real sure there either. I am a real novice sharpener and it is kind of hit or miss for me getting a tool sharp.In my head it causes problems. I think i feel those cracks. In my head it feels better when i rub the medium stone on it and those cracks get filled with slurry. I bought these stones as an upgrade to the King combo 1000/6000 but i definitely got better results on that stone. The 6,000 just felt and looked cooler than this Sigma. It had a mottled color that looked natural and a sheen to it. To me, it even felt harder. I can actually gouge the Sigma with my fingernail.

Here is a pic of the cracks:275340

that big one is definitely worse since i let it dry out completely. Can these stones be perma soaked? whenever i feel the need to sharpen i hate waiting fifteen minutes. I come on here to kill the time and end up spending hours. Which of these: SHapton Pro, Chosera, and the other Sigmas that Stu carries can be left in water?

And can you guys explain the difference between ceramic stones and ceramic water stones?.How do those Spyderco stones not wear at all and remain sharp? I tried to return a diamond stone to Woodcraft after it finally dawned on me that it had a valley to it. It would put a hump to the backs of blades. They wouldn't return it for being unflat but gave me a new one because it was so blunted. The new one was dulled very fast as well. If diamonds can be so short lasting, how can clay last indefinitely? And the ultra fine is listed as 1,800 grit. Is that the one you use George?

I put cedar on the bottom because i recalled Chris Schwarz writing about fixing a cracked stone by gluing to wood. I thought cedar was a moisture resistant wood? Maybe I'll glue it to the medium stone?

p.s. George, did you see the comedian Tracy Morgan at Williamsburg. He references it so much in diverse settings that i think he might have even worked there.

[David Weaver]

That's more than superficial, return it.

Spyderco's ceramic stones are made by coors ceramics. They are a solid ceramic like you'd think of with a coffee cup, though the medium grit will soak some water (and can be used dry, anyway).
The other ceramics you're used to looking at are resin bound ceramic, magnesia bound ceramic, etc, the abrasive is ceramic alumina, etc. I think ceramic gets thrown around a lot for modern stones, but they are made with various different processes. In general, if you see the term ceramic, it should imply that the stone has some sort of hard and durable abrasive in it. Spyderco doesn't use the same grit scale as the JIS scale stones (shapton, naniwa, etc), and the structure of the stone itself is different. Consider the spyderco to be a stone that can do something like any other 10k grit labeled finisher.

Most of the resin and magnesia bound ceramic stones are easier to use than the spyderco stones and faster. The UF spydercos do break in and have a duller feel when they do,they cut like mad when they're brand new, but you won't see that cutting speed again if you don't abrade them with diamonds (and you won't seriously abrade them with anything else). When you clean them with a pot cleaner like they suggest, they get some refreshed cutting back.

Stu's sigmas can be kept in water indefinitely, king's red stones can, besters can, choseras no, and shapton pros, no.

If your sigma is an SP II sintered stone, they're soft, that's just the way they are (based on the comment about being able to dig in a fingernail).

Anyway, cost-wise if you want nice stones, the shapton pros and the sigma (not the sintered soft type) are probably the two choices for all around use. If budget counts, I'd use a bester 1200 and pretty much any finishing stone to go with it (naniwa snow white, shapton pro, SPII) and minimize the amount of metal the finish stone works by using a micro bevel.

Choseras need to be soaked for a short period of time to have a nice action, but they can be damaged by long soaking. Shapton opinions may differ (about whether or not they should be soaked) because they have some stiction for a beginner when they're not soaked, but I like them much better not soaked because they are hard and you have more control over what they do (in terms of whether or not they shed grit) as a user. Any time they seem to be glazed, short strokes up the stone with water will remove the swarf, and if the abrasive is tired, a quick refresh with a diamond hone works them back to fresh and fast cutting. I haven't had stiction issues for at least 5 years and never soak them. As a hard stone user, I consider them quite nice (they are my overall favorite), and they are definitely a lot easier to use than a hard natural japanese finisher - by leaps and bounds. Stu mentions from time to time that the instructions say to soak them but I've never talked to a long-term user who actually does it.

The SP stones (I've only used the 1200 and 13000). The 1200 is like a refined version of the bester 1200 (not to discount the bester 1200, I like it a lot), and the 13000 is somewhere between the non-porous shaptons and the old stones for feel and grit shedding - it will soak up some water and works better if it's been soaked, and it will release some grit. It is the finest cutting of the relatively inexpensive stones and makes a bright polish.

All of these are probably a little easier to use in the long term than the spydercos.

Side comment about the choseras, if you're willing to babysit them for 15 minutes, they have the nicest super slick feel and cut fast. But if you don't like to wait on a soak, they're not the way to go - and they're expensive (because naniwa says so, not because they have to be, as there have been unbranded magnesia stones from time to time with the same feel that have been dirt cheap). they don't have the same magical feel if they're just splashed.

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Noah,

That is not right at all. The crack is incredible (I've never seen anything like that before) and that stone must be returned. My own Select II #10000 here cannot be gouged by a fingernail, so it's also super soft and again, not right.

While I really shouldn't be doing this, as it's not 'my' stone, I have to ask if the stone had cracks originally and was it as soft as it is now when you first used it? Basically, what has changed since new and by how much have things changed?

These stones can be stored in water, but it's not necessary and while Sigma Power says it's ok, that is unofficial. They don't need to be soaked and work the way they were intended with a splash of water before use. My concern with perma-soaking is that I can see where you live, and I know it's cold there, so I wonder if the stone has been in water, and the water has frozen? If so, that will certainly bring out any cracks that might be present (and otherwise missed/ignored) or weaken a stone that can't handle freezing to the point of failure. Actually, not too different to what that stone looks like...

Please, some more details about what might have happened to that stone or if it was like that from new.

Also, please wait for a perfect stone before making a judgement whether to try something else. The Select II #10000 is actually very good and you may find you do not need to try anything else once you have a good one.

Stu.

[Noah Wagener]

Stu,

I did not know the stone was a splash and go stone. Lee Valley has generic water stone care and it did not come with any instructions. I e-mailed them about leaving them in water while i worked and they said that was ok with the 1,000 grit only and to soak the others 10-15 minutes before use. I'd have to wait on the higher grit stones anyways so i do not leave the 1,000 stone in water.

The stone did not always have those cracks. They started about a month and a half ago which was about 4 months after i got it. As to if it was always that soft i can not really say. It did slurry up real fast if that is any indication. It is more of a scratch than a gouge i can do with a fingernail.

The stone has not been in water that has frozen. It did get near freezing in October. The stone was not in water but probably did have water in it though it was out of water for week during those cold days. That is when the cracks started to appear.The other 2 (1,000 and 3,000) have had exact same treatment and are fine. The cracks expand the longer it goes without water like parched earth.

I hear you about giving the stone some more time before passing judgement. I just can not get the pretty mirror polish i was hoping to with the jump up from the 6,000 King. The edge has a matte look to it. Can you get a polish with Select IIs? Maybe polish isn't that important? I read a lot on sharpening and stones but the lingo and my lack of experience are a block. I never sharpened anything but pencils until the last couple of years. Once bought a set of chisels because the set i had found in the garage was dull. So i definitely need to improve my technique before choosing a stone. But from i read on here experienced people prefer harder stones. It looks like i'm going to need a new fine stone so i think i'll get what the experts here use if i do. David has enough stones to keep out Mongol invaders and it seems he doesn't have these so that tells me something. If i felt comfortable returning it i might try the new one for longer but i don't.

I wish i would have seen that 3 stone plus the Atoma diamond plate deal you have before i bought these.

Thanks for help, Noah

[Stuart Tierney]

Hi Noah,

Based on what you're telling me, I'd have to say that it's most likely that the stone did have water in it, and it has frozen and started cracking the stone, causing both the cracks you can see and the softness of the stone.

(My own Select II #10000 is 'hard', not 'very hard' but 'hard' and I can't put anything more than fingernail remains on my own stone.)

The #1000 and #3000 are more porous, and are likely to have dried out before any real damage could have occurred due to freezing.

As far as a polish from that particular stone, pre-cracking, very much possible. Soaked, it will tend to leave an unpolished finish, but the edge should still be very sharp. Splashed with only a little water before use, the edge should polish up nicely.

(A polished edge being sharp is possible, a matte edge and being sharp is equally possible. A polished edge however may not necessarily be 'sharp', contrary to popular belief.)

I'm sorry, but I think the stone is kaput, and it's not due to a manufacturing problem. Yes, some of these stones have come from Sigma Power with small surface cracks in them. I've never seen them bad enough to affect performance, but enough to replace them under warranty. I don't know if it makes you feel any better, but it's quite likely that most stones would be similarly affected by being allowed to freeze with any moisture still in them.

(I have frozen several stones to see what will happen, not all stones fall to pieces when frozen.)

I don't know what else to say here, other than I'm sorry that your stone seems to have died not through anything intentional, just accident. I'm also unhappy that you never seemed to get the best from the stone before it's apparent demise. It's a good stone, perhaps not as popular as it probably should be, and typically quite easy to use and very effective in getting the job done.

Stu.

[David Weaver]

It's not unlikely that if it's glued to something, you can continue to use it dry if it's a little soft. If you're in a shop where there's a chance that future stones may freeze, even if it's due to them being partially dry but out of the bucket already, I would go with shapton pros, oilstones or a diamond setup.

I have a cold shop, too - but not minnesota cold. I haven't used waterstones with much frequency for the last 6 months because of a detour of fascination with washita stones, but when I did use them, I hung up all of my soakers for the winter and my shop generally doesn't get colder than mid 40s. Even at mid 40s, a soaked stone is extremely undesirable to use and dunk in water, etc. Folks less sensitive to 45 degree water than I am might be less bothered by it.

I did have a 3k sp II that I used more or less as a replacement for a tanba aoto. I love the tanba aoto stone type, but they fall apart too fast and their mud is like slick grease - they are a sloppy mess. The SP II was better as that role, but I sold it to another creeker because I kind of set my japanese planes aside. The IIs are a very specific stone. The shaptons and the SP set that stu sells are a more generalized stone. What the SP IIs of the sintered silicon carbide type do is better done by diamonds, and the compromises they have to do what they do well are what some people like (a fresh softer stone) but are something I don't like. Since the aoto that I was used to is already soft, and since the SP II basically is a better syntehtic version of it, I did like it in that role (the aoto is a transition stone that is fast and loose and that gets you ready for a finish stone).

I couldn't tell you what most pros, do, though - I've not met any around here who actually use hand tools. The rest of them I've seen online adopted their sharpening regimen long ago (George for example, who uses the hardest stones you can find) and they may or may not choose differently if they started now. Either that, or they're semi pros more focused on teaching and selling, and they use something they sell. Quite often what's sold by demonstrators is influenced by whether or not someone already sells it. For example, shapton isn't going to give LN the north american market, because Harrelson Stanley is already the distributor for at least the United States, and dealers from japan are supposedly selling you "gray market" shapton stones, but in my opinion, the commentary about how different the stones are has a lot more to do with shapton protecting the distributors than there being a huge difference between a shapton cream from stu and a shapton 15k pro that goes through stanley.

Anyway, if you do much carving (or any) you'll definitely need to have harder stones - shapton pros would be borderline for that, and most people would consider them hard. I'd consider them a medium hardness stone because you can still scratch them with small pointy things. A medium hard stone would be something like a soft/hard arkansas, a hard japanese waterstone, etc. and a straight up hard stone would be something like the spydercos. Most people who just use waterstones would consider shaptons (other than some of the coarser stones) hard.

Stu and I definitely like different things in stones. That's already apparent. Luckily he's busy for the last year or so, that keeps us from arguing back and forth in emails.

[Winton Applegate]

I have never understood the need to glue a stone to a hunk of something.
If you don't then you have two sides to use. I have one side I use just for blade backs and finish plane blades and the other side I let go a little longer before flattening and for chisels.
To glue the stone to something is to eliminate 50 % of the useful surface of the stone.

A sheet of hard neoprene and a mist of water between the counter and the mat and between the mat and the stone is all it takes to hold the stone to a flat smooth surface. Slide the mat around and it will suck down and stick and then the same with the stone. Pivot the stone on the same plane as the surface to release it.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/roc%20cuts%20wood/Dazzling_zps69018aa9.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/roc%20cuts%20wood/Dazzling_zps69018aa9.jpg.html)

You can see where the stone was sitting . . . about that much water or even less.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/roc%20cuts%20wood/Neoprene_zps4d77662d.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/roc%20cuts%20wood/Neoprene_zps4d77662d.jpg.html)

As if by magic.
(the simplest solution is the hardest to arrive at.)

[Noah Wagener]

Thanks for the sympathy Stu. Your customer service must be excellent. I feel like i bought it from you.

Do the coarser stones not require a soak either? If I put a little water on top it gets sucked up immediately. I was told to soak until they stopped releasing air. I tried the splash method on all 3 and i definitley wish i would have known that with the 10,000 as the edge was at least more aesthetically pleasing. Maybe it would have dried out before it froze too.

I definitely think i prefer hard stones. If lack of forming a slurry is an indication of hardness. The king 6,000 i mentioned can be left in water indefinitely and nothing ever forms on top. I thought they were supposed to be some of the softest stones?

Are their different techniques for different types of stones? I see some people who only push a tool and some who only pull. Some go both ways but will start to only pull on finishing stone. People opposite things bout how much pressure to apply as well. I wonder if that is because of the stones they are using and don't know that their advice is not going to work on other stones?

I feel sharpening is a real gateway skill so I read about it almost exclusively but i think it becomes more mystifying the more i read. I was just reading a post on a straight razor forum where a guy said he likes to follow the Chosera 10,000 with his Norton 8,000 because the edge off the Chosera was too "crisp". That really boggles my mind. Why would someone pay 250 for a stone and then regress the edge? Why not just stop at the Norton then? Surely for woodworking you want the smoothest edge? Someone in those planing competitions said he does the same thing, going to coarser stone. He likes a little tooth to his edge.

Winton, where can you get rubber like that. I was looking for something like that at places like Menard's. All I could find was floor mats and shelf liner type stuff. They were too hard or something so i ended up building a sink bridge but the reach is uncomfortable. Is it similar to a bike tube?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

At a couple of the local Ace hardwares they have smaller sheets of neoprene (still large enough for a stone or two) sold over by the plumbing supplys as raw material for making gaskets. You could probably talk to a roofer and see if you could get an off-cut of the rubber underlayment they use on the edges of roofs - my neighbors got some of that stuff he uses for a few things.

[Derek Cohen]

Several years ago I purchased two Shapton Pro waterstones off eBay, a 5000 and a 8000. Both arrived with micro cracks. The 8000 also moved about 1mm between the evening, when it was wet, and the morning, when it was dry.

I had the idea (taken from the Shapton Glasstones) then to epoxy the stones to glass to keep them flat and strengthen them. This was so successful that I subsequently did the same to a new 1000 and 12000.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Shapton2.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a262/Derek50/Sharpening/Shapton1.jpg

The stones still fit in their boxes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

[snip]

Are their different techniques for different types of stones? I see some people who only push a tool and some who only pull. Some go both ways but will start to only pull on finishing stone. People opposite things bout how much pressure to apply as well. I wonder if that is because of the stones they are using and don't know that their advice is not going to work on other stones?

I feel sharpening is a real gateway skill so I read about it almost exclusively but i think it becomes more mystifying the more i read.

[snip]

Winton, where can you get rubber like that. I was looking for something like that at places like Menard's. All I could find was floor mats and shelf liner type stuff. They were too hard or something so i ended up building a sink bridge but the reach is uncomfortable. Is it similar to a bike tube?

The different techniques may be a combination of personal preference and the types of stones. My oilstones allow much harder pressing of a blade into the stone. If this is done on a water stone it is likely to dig in and leave a nasty scar.

With water stones some like to apply minimal pressure when the blade is almost finished on the finest grit stone. The idea being the slurry is a finer grit than the stone and will do more to polish the bevel at that point.

Sharpening is a gateway skill. It is one you will continue to learn about as you go. Of course, the more you use your tools the more practice you will get sharpening. My planes can be coaxed into making shavings thinner than 0.001" yet my brain tells me there is still a lot to learn about the art of perfecting a blade's edge.

As for the sources of a rubber mat, they are endless. An old truck tire inner tube would work, but would likely be a bit wavy. My mat came from the automotive area of a department store. Looked for mats in the kitchen and bath area. The floor mat was the right size for my needs. The ridges support the stone above the run off water and hold it on the mat for easy disposal if needed. In my old small shop, things had to be put away after use. Currently there are dedicated areas for sharpening in my shop. One for oil and one for water, they do not mix well.

This almost sounds like Buddhist philosophy that there are many paths to a perfect edge. They all take time and patience.

jtk

[Noah Wagener]

Stu,

I have been playing around with the stone drier and it works a lot better. Thanks for the tip.


I tried a wet rag in lieu of the rubber and it was pretty solid.

It appears not only are there many paths to the perfect edge, but many ideas on what that is.

thanks yous

[Praki Prakash]

That's more than superficial, return it.
Side comment about the choseras, if you're willing to babysit them for 15 minutes, they have the nicest super slick feel and cut fast. But if you don't like to wait on a soak, they're not the way to go - and they're expensive (because naniwa says so, not because they have to be, as there have been unbranded magnesia stones from time to time with the same feel that have been dirt cheap). they don't have the same magical feel if they're just splashed.

David - do you have any pointers to these unbranded stones?

[David Weaver]

The one I know of that's generally available is from fujibato:

http://www.330mate.com/product/863

I wouldn't buy it and pay shipping (I have bought things directly from fujibatos store, but it's not an easy thing to accomplish), especially if you don't really need a 6000 grit stone, but it's a good 6000 grit stone and with a splash has the same greasy smooth feel as a soaked chosera has. There have been times in the past that fujibato released them on ebay for $37 or so shipped.

Sometimes, you'll see stones listed as magnesia binder, and to be honest, I don't know what specifically makes it different than a resin binder stone, because there are soft resin bound stones and harder magnesia, and the converse too. But there are stones that I'm almost sure that are classified as resin bound stones (like shapton) that are sometimes marketed as magnesia.

The chosera feel is the issue, and this one has it.

The other reason I made that comment is that naniwa has been making the magnesia snow white for a long time, and it's an 8k stone that's $100. It feels like a chosera, and it cuts like a chosera. And, when the chosera stones were first introduced, Dick tools was selling them for about half of what they are now, for a while, and then all of the sudden the prices shot through the roof. I understand that they are also expensive in japan, and of course I've never been there, but they have been described to me as stones that are marketed at high-end knife shops with regularity. High end knife shops tend to attract more tourist dollars and international dollars than tool shops. It's my opinion based on those things that the choseras are overpriced because of intentional placement on price and not because there's something about them that makes them really expensive to make.

[Noah Wagener]

Following that link to the off-brand magnesia stone makes me wonder how Japanese and Chinese people can use the internet or a computer. If you have 7,000 thousand symbols how big is your keyboard. The way the page read out for me it looks like they combine 2 two digit numbers and two roman letters in a square to represent a word. Is that how they type it out? Stu? seems impossible. i wonder if the internet will have an effect on their written language. I read in a book by Bill Bryson that it used to be when a secretary left an office it went into chaos because the filing system lived in her/his head.

Did you watch the video on that page? The guy sharpened a cambered blade while holding the camera.

What's a magnesia stone? Can you drink the slurry (milk) to relieve the heartburn from the expenditure?

[Jessica Pierce-LaRose]

. . . The way the page read out for me it looks like they combine 2 two digit numbers and two roman letters in a square to represent a word. . . .

That sounds like what often happens when you don't have the typefaces installed or set up on your computer to display characters from other non-latin alphabets (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Arabic, Cyrillic alphabets, etc.) I see standard Japanese text on that page.

[Noah Wagener]

But how did they type it out? Imagine having to find a symbol for every word you wanted to type. And i think it would be hard for a computer to wait till you spelled out a word phonetically with, say, the roman alphabet and then turn it into those pictographs.

[Winton Applegate]

Where to buy neoprene sheet
Well I buy mine locally at my bearing and hydraulics supply. They have great roles of the stuff and sell it by the yard or foot.


Here is an easy to deal with source but it is more expensive to buy this way and doesn't support your local businesses.


http://www.amazon.com/Hard-Neoprene-Rubber-Sheet-Length/dp/B006GR2VNK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1385269055&sr=8-4&keywords=hard+neoprene+sheet


Is it like a bike tube ?
It is less soft and less stretchy. Not really stretchy at all. It is hard rubber like the rubber heal on a dress shoe but the surface is very shinny, smooth and flat. Not so hard it would ever crack from rolling the sheet up though. Sounds like magic doesn't it ? The work of the devil !
The surface is very smooth and flat with absolutely no seams.
I use 1/8 inch. Any thing thicker would work. Some diamond stones come with a similar mat that is much thinner but is sticky. I am not sure how long the sticky lasts because I didn't use that mat.

[Winton Applegate]

Pushing the blade, pulling the blade or both directions.

Are their different techniques for different types of stones? I see some people who only push a tool and some who only pull. Some go both ways but will start to only pull on finishing stone. People opposite things bout how much pressure to apply as well. I wonder if that is because of the stones they are using and don't know that their advice is not going to work on other stones?

I don't want to sound like too much of a butt head but some of this takes a bit of horse sense. Meaning that if you push the blade and it digs into a softer stone like a water stone then DON'T PUSH on that stone only pull. Generally the ceramic and natural hard Arkansas stones can take the pushing.


Loosing the polish on the finer stone.
That is one reason I mentioned rinse off the slurry.
I find the "nice build up of the almighty slurry" tends to leave a matt finish on the blade. I also don't like the idea of this goop riding higher than the edge of the blade on the stone. Isn't it contributing to rounding over the edge as it squirts out from under the blade and if using a figure eight or circular sharpening pattern which I never do (I am a jig using snob and for very good reason SUPERIOR RESULTS ) but have seen free handers do the roundy round ; isn't the goop coming up against the edge on the roundy round ?

Keep rinsing the stone to get rid of the goop and I would think your polish, on a 10,000 stone, will emerge.

[Winton Applegate]

Freezing and drying and PREVENTING CRACKS

That is why I :

don't sharpen in my shop
Keep my stones in the kitchen


(requires DELICATE negotiations with SWMBO ! ! ! Hire a mediator for this and be sure to grovel, agree to any demands no matter how obtuse, let loose with tears if you have to . . . just secure that small piece of real-estate in the kitchen to store your stones and matt).



HAVE STACKS OF BLADES SO I CAN WORK WHEN I AM IN THE SHOP RATHER THAN SHARPEN.

By the time you use up all your sharp blades it is time for a little snack anyway. Am I right ? And OH look . . . we just happen to be in the kitchen sharpening so may as well pop that _____ into the toaster oven and get some ice for that _____ beverage. Turn on the big living room sound system while sharpening ?

Yah . . . it is a rough life . . . "HAVING" to go up to the kitchen to sharpen.

Water stones cut so much faster and do such a better job on A2 blades that it is worth the effort.

My small piece of real-estate in the kitchen. There are actually three plastic tubs here. I push them out of sight under the cabinet. "Out of sight" is one of those "negotiated demands". Don't expect to have space inside a cabinet . . . what ? are you dreaming ? Cabinet space is for pots not your "filthy" tool things !!!! The plastic tub not shown contains stones and jigs for pocket and kitchen knives specifically.
http://i801.photobucket.com/albums/yy298/noydb1/IMG_2408_zps78b90672.jpg (http://s801.photobucket.com/user/noydb1/media/IMG_2408_zps78b90672.jpg.html)

PS: don't even look at the cabinet; it is a POS for utility only.

PPS: be sure to slightly round or bevel the edges of all your stones after flattening. Only required once in a blue moon; the bevel stays there even after many flattenings.
The bevel prevents edge chipping from some kind of weird tensions along the edges of the stone.

[Noah Wagener]

[QUOTE][I don't want to sound like too much of a butt head but some of this takes a bit of horse sense. Meaning that if you push the blade and it digs into a softer stone like a water stone then DON'T PUSH on that stone only pull. Generally the ceramic and natural hard Arkansas stones can take the pushing.
/QUOTE]

All the videos I have seen the sharpener has used some type of waterstone (except smith Murray Carter who i think honed on his teeth in the last one i saw). I don't think gouging the stone was the reason some pushed and some pulled. The ones who pulled did both pushing and pulling on their coarser (softer?) stones. The stones i have i think are considered soft and i don't gouge on pushing them except on the corners of cambered blades. I also read an argument about leading edge stroke vs failing edge stroke on a sharpening forum that was about the edge quality and not gouging. Here is a quasi scientific examination of pushing vs side sharpening:http://hmsenterprises.com/webstore/hmsincludes/pages/getsharppages/getsharpresearch.htm

275663 edge moved side to side.

275664 pushed and pulled.


I agree it just takes some common sense and practice and i get bogged down in minutiae but to me stones are expensive and i can not afford to test a bunch so i ask a lot of questions.

I don't like slurry either but people who do i am sure get good results. I think one benefit might be keeping that black swarf from clogging the stone. I take one stroke and the stone is smeared black and another stroke over that area is not pleasant. I pretty much have to rinse stone every pass. Maybe particles of steel get suspended in slurry?

Thanks for your input.

[Winton Applegate]

minutiae . . . stones are expensive and i can not afford to test a bunch so i ask a lot of questions.


That is way cool.
I can relate to that.

By digging in I suppose I am talking from a hard blade fixed in a jig. If I push that , especially with a cambered blade I will cut the stone , say a Norton 8000 and it may not be a visible gouge but there will be excessive stone wear.

Black on the stone is what you want. Obviously it means metal is being abraded off the blade. I just use a cleaner area on the stone for the next pass. It doesn't take all that many passes to sharpen a blade so by the time you have used the whole surface of the stone and most likely before that you will have done what you need to do on that stone and it will be time to move on to the next grit.

If you have to go longer on that stone it is a sign you either need to grind to the edge then use the stone ala the "one stone, a grinder and a strop" method, which I respect or
go to a coarser stone then the one you are spending so much time on which is what I do.


Back flattening is another topic but we are assuming that you have already flattened and polished the blade back and you are just cutting off the wear bevels on a previously prepared blade.


As far as side to side or front to back I guess I have that covered because I front to back on the bevel and side to side on the back to do the back.


In my mind the slurry just acts like a bunch of ball bearings under the surface I am trying to CUT and I can clean the stone with my nagura and get back to cutting the metal.


An example is my Norton 220. It develops one whale of a lot of slurry and loose abrasive. It is useless for flattening OR sharpening. I get MUCH, MUCH, MUCH faster and better results using a 300 diamond stone that has FIXED abrasive. I would think that if the slurry and self cleaning was the cat's meow then the 220 would do the better job.


:cool: I will sell it to you cheep if it sounds like the thing you or anyone else needs.
Just kidding. :p
Basically it is just a defective and poorly made stone though I have had people tell me they have a Norton 220 that is made right so they are, or were, out there.


PS: now I am off to watch the link you posted. Thanks.

[Winton Applegate]

I apologize if you didn't expect a review of the SharpSkate (you can skip over most of that if you like) . I couldn't stop once I got going.


First off, my first impression, was I'm gonna get me a SharpSkate !
But
on further consideration . . . my problem, at least intellectually, with this side sharpening kind of thing is
what may be on the minds of people who don't like to polish the ENTIRE bevel with all the grits and so they go to a secondary bevel or more bevels
and that is
that the poor little grituals, (my word) are sooooo loaded up by the time they get from the first front / side of the blade to the other rear / side that they are ineffective at metal removal and possibly gaul the metal.


Yes I see the supposed results. I also see kind of raised string or ridge areas on the bevel surface further away from the edge. Not as flat over all as the front to back method.


Hummmm


The other problem I have is that I could never set up my angle by feel. I use a micro bevel steeper than the ground bevel. I can easily make the sharpening angle shallower because of this rather than re grind the whole bevel shallower.
Sharpening angle is critical for some wood to get tear out free results. Usually steeper. Then for say not so figured walnut I want to shallow out my angle.


Polishing the entire main bevel on every grit is just a waste of abrasive and clogs up the stones even more than just polishing the tiny micro / secondary bevel.


So SharpSkate for Winton ?
Nah dude, nah.


PS: the thin axles very near the stone surface may pick up enough grit from the tiny wheels to wear out very rapidly.
The roller on my Varitas jig has worn very significantly and the axle is much higher and less vulnerable to abrasive infiltration though it keeps going because the axle is so thick.
Tiny thin axles may = short life.


To prevent loading of your stones polish only the smallest micro bevel near the edge. To prevent super clogging the grit and so galling the blade surface sharpen in line front to back.

[David Weaver]

I agree it just takes some common sense and practice and i get bogged down in minutiae but to me stones are expensive and i can not afford to test a bunch so i ask a lot of questions.

Any decent stone is going to get you what you want, and if it doesn't, you can always use a side cheat (like a MDF strop charged with diamonds) if for some reason, you feel like you need to. At this point, what you're lacking if you're searching for a perfect stone is experience, and not the perfect stone. Just get something decent and work with it until you feel like you can get the results you want.

Given the freeze issue, I'd say that it's more important that you get something that's competent with what you have, but that has little threat of ruin in freezing temperatures. You can pretty much learn the rest.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with slurry, especially in woodworking. People who like hard stones generally like to control if they have a slurry, though, and how much.

Any stone that can get its scratches all the way to the edge will be fine.